Game: Race for the Galaxy: The Gathering Storm

Thread: Re: Delay Confirmed - Official

EvanMinn — 2008-05-11T07:30:52+00:00

True, but the subject is whether they will lose sales specifically because of delays as some people are claiming. Losing sales because demand outstrips the print run size is a different subject completely.

Thread: Re: Delay Confirmed - Official

Felkor — 2008-05-11T06:09:35+00:00

Well "selling out" does generally mean success, it also means lost sales too... Proper planning for the amount of sales you'll receive is important too. Being sold out means you're not just losing the customers you couldn't convince to buy your product, but even some of the ones you could.

Thread: Re: Delay Confirmed - Official

EvanMinn — 2008-05-10T03:23:13+00:00

Felkor wrote:
... Pushing back release dates (while I'm sure often necessary) loses sales, even if it's not from any intentional response by customers.

I would say it's not something they have to worry about.

I would be willing to bet real money that it will sell out no matter how many times it is delayed.

They might lose the sale to you but someone else will buy it.

Thread: Re: Delay Confirmed - Official

frunkee — 2008-05-10T01:17:31+00:00

The difficulty is:

1. The smallness of the operation. Rio Grande has long been a one man show.
2. Rio Grande is working with several other publishers for the foreign language versions, so all of this has to be coordinated so it can be sent to the printers together. The individualized art on each card also adds to the difficulty.
3. Distributers want release dates. They want to know when a product will be available. It's easier to let a date slip than to try to sell a game that you said wouldn't be available for 2-3 months.

Release dates should be considered a best case, everything goes right type of thing. If you want, assume any release date is for the distributers and automatically tack on a couple months to that. There's a tendency for release dates around big events, like Essen, Origins or GenCon (depending on the publisher's market), to be a little firmer. Publishers will push harder to have the game available for those shows.

Thread: Re: Delay Confirmed - Official

mstephans — 2008-05-09T03:05:26+00:00

I have no problem with releasing a quality product, the true question is why do we keep being given dates that aren't met. November wouldn't be a problem if Q1, May, and June hadn't been said first. Just pick a *real* date and hit that.

Thread: Re: Delay Confirmed - Official

Felkor — 2008-05-09T12:30:12+00:00

onigame wrote:
Right. Pushing back release dates loses sales.

Thank you, I'm glad you agree! I was not arguing with anything else that you said. :-)

Really didn't mean to start a debate!

Thread: Re: Delay Confirmed - Official

MataDorPL — 2008-05-09T08:58:01+00:00

Damn :/
I have around 200 games in RftG registerd (i note all the games I play together with the scores - I love statistics :)) by now and I haven't been waiting for any game so impatiently as for this expansion. Can't wait to get it.

Thread: Re: Delay Confirmed - Official

RDewsbery — 2008-05-09T07:42:55+00:00

Delaying a product might lose sales of that product.

Rushing out a poor product might lose sales of that prduct *and* future products by the same company.

Thread: Re: Delay Confirmed - Official

onigame — 2008-05-09T07:28:35+00:00

Felkor wrote:
Pushing back release dates (while I'm sure often necessary) loses sales, even if it's not from any intentional response by customers.

Right. Pushing back release dates loses sales. But putting out a product that isn't quite ready yet may lose even more sales.

For example, I'm reasonably confident that if RGG wanted, they could release RftG:tGS right now, in a nondescript cardboard box, with nothing inside it but a CD-R filled with PDFs of unfinished card sketches and a buggy rulebook.

I'm also reasonably confident that the sales on said product would be horrible. :-)

Thread: Re: Delay Confirmed - Official

Felkor — 2008-05-09T04:17:13+00:00

I too prefer to have a proper product than a lousy one shipped out the door. My job is in quality assurance, and part of the job is knowing when to say that a product is not shippable. At the same time I believe it's often important to put the right resources in the right place to raise the probability of a product shipping on time. Sometimes those extra resources can be worth it.

I fully plan on getting this game, and will probably get it fairly soon after it comes out. All I'm saying is that I know that companies lose business by missing shipping dates.

Another case in point: I played RFTG with a friend of mine. He loved it, and wanted to get it to play with his wife. So we took a trip down to the FLGS, and they were out - waiting for the reprint to come in. My friend doesn't have a car, so it was it was a significant trip for me to go and get him and drive him out to the store, something that won't happen very often. He bought a different game instead.

I'm not upset or angry that game is delayed. I just would like to see the makers of RFTG succeed, because that means everyone's happy - them as well as the players.

Thread: Re: Delay Confirmed - Official

PMantix84 — 2008-05-09T04:04:22+00:00

Felkor wrote:
That's what happened with Race for the Galaxy - I forgot about it and didn't end up getting it until months later - it's one of my favourite games now, but I would have bought it much earlier if it came out on its scheduled release date.

Yeah, but it might not have been one of your favorite games if it did come out as originally planned..

I rarely know what the exact reasoning for any delays are, and honestly I'm never too interested to find out. The publishers want to make money, they know people are chomping at the bit to buy it.. but for one reason or another they decided that it is a wiser move to set back the release. They aren't just going to sit on a finished product for no reason whatsoever. Maybe it's a purely selfish reason, or maybe it is to ensure a quality product is delivered to the consumer (I hope), who knows?

As for me, I'm fine with waiting for something that isn't half baked.

Thread: Re: Delay Confirmed - Official

Felkor — 2008-05-09T01:42:42+00:00

Oh, I'm sure it will stand on its own merits.

It's like when you're in a store and they put batteries right beside the cameras. So if you buy a camera, you'll see the batteries, and pick them up too. They put the batteries right in the place where you're going to think about them.

Same goes for board games... if a board game comes out when I'm reading about it and hearing all these things about it, then I'll go pick it up. If it gets delayed, It's quite possible I'll just forget about it. That's what happened with Race for the Galaxy - I forgot about it and didn't end up getting it until months later - it's one of my favourite games now, but I would have bought it much earlier if it came out on its scheduled release date.

I'm not saying anything about the quality of RFTG: TGS, or any other game. Just talking about marketing in general. Pushing back release dates (while I'm sure often necessary) loses sales, even if it's not from any intentional response by customers.

Thread: Re: Delay Confirmed - Official

onigame — 2008-05-09T01:00:32+00:00

Felkor wrote:
The problem with delays like this is that my own hype for a game only lasts so long. Because of the delays for the original Race for the Galaxy, when it did finally come out I was barely even thinking about it and it was another 6 months before I finally got it.

Why is this necessarily a problem? It seems to me that it would be better for a game to stand on its own merits, rather than have it be about hype.

Thread: Re: Delay Confirmed - Official

Catanarama — 2008-05-08T09:44:44+00:00

Hansolo88 wrote:
You should change the thread title if you can.
Definitely. It reads as if you're confirming the November "news."

Thread: Re: Delay Confirmed - Official

Felkor — 2008-05-08T05:39:44+00:00

The problem with delays like this is that my own hype for a game only lasts so long. Because of the delays for the original Race for the Galaxy, when it did finally come out I was barely even thinking about it and it was another 6 months before I finally got it. The same will probably happen for the expansion, especially as it looks like Galactic Emperor ([url]http://www.boardgamegeek.com/game/27463[/url]) will beat it out of the gate, which is its competition for my time and money.

Thread: Re: Rumors, Hints, and Slip-ups

LimboLance — 2008-05-08T02:54:46+00:00

DSpangler wrote:
I know this will make me seem like a warmonger (well, if the shoe fits...)but darn, I have to wait until the second expansion, probably in the fall sometime if not as late as next year, for "limited direct conflict mechanics." Being able to invade his planets or decimate his fleets may be the only way I'll ever beat my son at this game! :laugh:

Try this variant....

All players will use the SETTLE duplicate Action Card. The "normal" SETTLE card will be SETTLE: COLONIZE and will function as per the rules (Phase III, page 5). The "duplicate" SETTLE card will now be read as SETTLE: CONQUER.

1) No player may be the target of more than one SETTLE: CONQUER attack per turn. If more than one player wishes to attack the same player, the START WORLD order will be used. The player with the lower START WORLD chooses first and the other(s) can either choose another target or abort the attack (keeping the VP chip) and perform the SETTLE: COLONIZE actions.
2) ONLY players who use the SETTLE: CONQUER card can make attacks. All the other players may perform a SETTLE: COLONIZE action (as they choose).

SEQUENCE:
1) It costs the "attacker" one VP chip to make a SETTLE: CONQUER declaration. If the "attacker" does not have a VP chip, he may still perform a SETTLE: COLONIZE action but cannot make any attacks (nor prevent others from doing so).
2) The "attacker" determines his total Military value in the standard manner (pp 5). The "defender" determines his total Military value by adding the VP value of the world to his Military value (It IS possible for a world to add its VP value AND contribute Military value to the "defenders" Military total value. Development cards which add Military value MAY be used and/or expended.
3) BOTH players may secretly take VP chips from their tableau and "place them in hand". Each player adds 1 to his military value for each "1 VP chip in hand". Whether the battle is won or lost - these VP chips are "expended" and lost to both players after the SETTLE: CONQUER phase.
4) BOTH players roll 1D6, reveal their "chips in hand" and add those values to determine their cumulative military value. Three outcomes are possible;
a) The "attacker" has a higher total than the "defender" and CONQUERS the planet (move it to his tableau MINUS any goods).
b) The "defender" has a higher total than the "attacker" and keeps the planet AND the VP chip that the attacker expended in order to make the attack (any goods on the planet are LOST).
c) The "attacker" and "defender" tie. The world (AND any goods) is lost to both players and added to the Discard pile.

We Fathers have to stick together - whose idea was it to have kids anyway! We were just fooling around and then....

Thread: Re: Delay Confirmed - Official

Hansolo88 — 2008-05-07T07:31:52+00:00

Ahh, don't do that! Don't post a thread with that title right above another thread that says "Delayed until November" when the actual delay is only until June/July.

You should change the thread title if you can.

Disappointing delay! I was hoping to see this at the end of May.

Thread: Delay Confirmed - Official

johnweldy — 2008-05-07T07:05:23+00:00

June/July (not November) as per RGG's newsletter:

http://riograndegames.com/news.html?id=14

Thread: Re: Delayed until November???

Zambo — 2008-05-07T12:33:15+00:00

I am boycotting this thread.

Oh, wait...

Thread: Re: Delayed until November???

rri1 — 2008-05-07T12:13:51+00:00

I'm not suggesting a mass boycott. I am just voting with my pocket book - three games I have been looking for have been delayed due to RGG - RTFG reprint, RTFG: TGS, and Galaxy Trucker reprint (first print run was extremely underproduced).

I don't have much sympathy for whiners complaining about a game being delayed for a few months. :cry: :cry: :cry:

I am still waiting for UpFront 2000!

Thread: Re: Delayed until November???

deathdealer69 — 2008-05-06T09:23:36+00:00

My prediction is Christmas in July with this and Agricola arriving in my stocking from my Boulder Games pre-order.

Thread: Re: Delayed until November???

violentzen — 2008-05-06T08:14:46+00:00

SwampIrish wrote:
I, also, am boycotting this expansion until it is released.

Ha! Good stuff. :laugh:

Thread: Re: Delayed until November???

SwampIrish — 2008-05-06T08:11:27+00:00

I, also, am boycotting this expansion until it is released.

Thread: Re: Delayed until November???

shrimple — 2008-05-06T03:55:44+00:00

Its great that almost everyone on this thread seems to be so understanding but come on! At least admit that it is bad service to continually delay a release date. I doubt a boycott would help but lets not pretend the publisher is just a victim. No body feels sorry for Microsoft when they delay a release. Like this example...

Frank Hamrick wrote:
Despite our calling, wrangling, emails, and iChats, she just over-promised and underproduced. Then, she took a holiday in Egypt while we waited! The project was huge and she was so far into it, that we would have been in a real mess if we jerked it from her - which we finally did - but she delayed in getting us the files. Things happen!

... the publisher got burned but I doubt they ever worked with that woman again. They probably tried to only work with reliable people from then on, thus exerting some control over future releases. IF (and thats a big if) there are publishers that always hit their release dates then it makes perfect sense to buy from them more often to get the others to fall in line.

Thread: Re: Delayed until November???

EvanMinn — 2008-05-06T02:12:23+00:00

Beowuulf1 wrote:
...
1) They can be more conservative with their projected release dates. 3,4,5 delays is not acceptable.

...

If you are going to boycott every publisher that moves the release date several times, you won't be buying many games at all.

Thread: Re: Delayed until November???

DarrellKH — 2008-05-06T01:48:05+00:00

Game publishing is, no doubt, a process susceptible to a lot of external circumstances, due in no small part to its limited volumes (and thus financial influence on said external factors).

What I care about most, at this juncture, is not cursing the beast for its nature, but an official statement of delay (or denial of such), in order to reorganize or not reorganize a large order through Thoughthammer, so I do not wait until November, for instance, for 80% of an order that I could have received in June.

Thread: Re: Delayed until November???

Marty S — 2008-05-06T01:33:04+00:00

Beowuulf1 wrote:

3) Reasonably sized print runs. I reserved the second copy of Galaxy Trucker from a local vendor who ordered a few of them. Guess how many were provided - one.

Define reasonable ? To most gamers, that means enough to last years so that they can hem and haw about whether to buy a game . Deciding print run size is not an exact science . If a company is too optimistic, it gets saddled with a lot of inventory that takes up space and money .

Thread: Re: Delayed until November???

zuviel — 2008-05-06T04:38:33+00:00

I can sympathize. It's always annoying waiting for something that's highly anticipated. I wouldn't use the term boycott, since that really doesn't seem to be what you're doing. Saying "The next game I'm buying is XXXX." is perfectly reasonable. It's a good way to budget too. (So long as the game isn't [GAMEID=11914]...)

There's a number of games that appeal to me, but I'm not buying any until I get Gathering Storm, Galactic Emperor and Agricola. I plan to spend lots of time playing all those games and I have more than enough to tide me over in the meantime. That's not a boycott, I just have limited time and anything I buy this month will likely be pushed to the back of the shelf in favour of the new and shiny in June and July.

Thread: Re: Delayed until November???

anarchy — 2008-05-06T04:08:33+00:00

My friend's mother's boyfriend's ex-girlfriend's uncle's college roommate looked up the release date on the RGG website and it still said June. The recent newsletter said June/July. Thoughthammer says June. There is no other indication of a change in the release date.

So, what we have here is a rumor of a release date change with no confirmation. I wouldn't worry about it unless you hear something from a more official source or it gets to late July... ^_^

I'm just glad people don't boycott the video game industry for missing release dates... we wouldn't have anyone to sell to!

Thread: Re: Delayed until November???

Frank Hamrick — 2008-05-06T03:30:00+00:00

JR: "I am accusing them of poor service."

That's not poor service.1) They don't serve me. 2) They often have no control over what 3rd party editors, artists, printers, etc. do. 3) They make every effort to meet their deadlines.

Now, if they were slovenly in trying to meet deadlines - that would be poor service.
If they gave me NO estimated target date - that would be poor service.
If they refused to fix problems (like missing bits, etc.) - that would be poor service.

I happen to be a publisher. This past year we missed a deadline terribly because one of our "outsourced" editors, in France, just simply did not do the job. Despite our calling, wrangling, emails, and iChats, she just over-promised and underproduced. Then, she took a holiday in Egypt while we waited! The project was huge and she was so far into it, that we would have been in a real mess if we jerked it from her - which we finally did - but she delayed in getting us the files. Things happen!

Presses break. Paper gets delayed. A printer gets backed up by problems with another job. You know the story I'm sure in your line of work. This is the real world.

Let it go! Big deal. This isn't what life is about. I would dearly love to have the extension. But guess what, I lived 69 years even without the game, and I think I could make it a few more months without its extension!

And - as one of the editors recently told me - "We want to get it right!" And so do I (want them to).

Thread: Re: Delayed until November???

Psauberer — 2008-05-06T03:06:54+00:00

Beowuulf1 wrote:
You are entitled to your opinion, but like I said - I am not accusing them of bad faith. I am accusing them of poor service.

Why do I also expect that it would be "poor service" if

a) they didn't announce anything at all until release ("Why didn't they say they were coming out with this? How am I supposed to knwo what to spend my money on if I don't know what is going to be coming out?")

b) if they announced what was coming out but did not attach dates to it ("How can they just say 'coming soon'? How can I know what to buy if I don't know when games are coming out?")

It seems like the only thing that qualifies as "good service" is for them to announce on date fairly far in advance and then hit that date exactly. That is not reasonable given the vagaries of the game market.

I think that not needing to be the first person to have a particular game and being satisfied with playing all of the great games that are available until it's easy to acquire the latest and greatest is a far less stressful way to approach things instead of setting unrealistic standards for game publishers and making dubious assertiosn of "poor service" when they fail to meet them.

Thread: Re: Delayed until November???

Beowuulf1 — 2008-05-06T02:55:54+00:00

You are entitled to your opinion, but like I said - I am not accusing them of bad faith. I am accusing them of poor service.

Thread: Re: Delayed until November???

BeyondMonopoly — 2008-05-06T02:40:54+00:00

Beowuulf1 wrote:
I heard from a local vendor that he heard that the expansion is delayed until November. Is there any truth to this rumor? If so, I'm going to boycott RGG until this expansion is released . . .
I suspect your vendor is confused. The second expansion is rumored for a release late in the year, the first one has not had an announced delay for that long.

That having been said, I agree with most of the other posters that, while you can do what you like and what makes you feel good, RGG has not dealt in bad faith or had unreasonable projections and a boycott would be an overreaction.

Thread: Re: Delayed until November???

Poruchik — 2008-05-06T01:38:05+00:00

Bigger issue than actual delays are lack of communication. This is what drives people up the wall.

Post something on your website. Tell people what's going on. Then they'd more accepting of the situation.

Thread: Re: Delayed until November???

junesen — 2008-05-06T12:57:48+00:00

Beowuulf1 wrote:
1) They can be more conservative with their projected release dates. 3,4,5 delays is not acceptable.

Yes, this is annoying. It would be nice if they had a pessimist to announce their projected release dates. However, it might be that whatever date they "announce", the actual release dates will be months after because they'll feel they have time. So an earlier release date will actually get it out faster.

Perhaps you should understand the inevitable delay and add 6 month to a release date, and then you won't be disappointed.

Thread: Re: Delayed until November???

Beowuulf1 — 2008-05-06T12:54:50+00:00

Why does everyone interpret that I think there is bad intent on the part of RGG. Bad service is rarely by design (telecommunications may be the exception). My suggestions would not apply to someone who did not want to get the game out quicker.

Thread: Re: Delayed until November???

wwscrispin — 2008-05-06T12:27:30+00:00

This is a completely silly thread.

Thread: Re: Delayed until November???

jschlickbernd — 2008-05-06T12:20:46+00:00

It's amazing how many people think that publishers don't want to sell them product. RGG doesn't make money unless you buy something from them, which they know you can't do unless it's available to you. So they have every incentive and no reason not to provide what you want. A boycott because something is late makes no sense on any level. If RGG had it, they'd sell it.

Thread: Re: Delayed until November???

violentzen — 2008-05-06T12:13:34+00:00

I think boycotting is a bad idea because you are encouraging them to rush. You are encouraging speed before quality. I understand you are frustrated, but please keep in mind that these companies, even the larger ones like RGG, are small outfits with only a handful of people at most. Even the most efficient companies have to deal with things that are largely out of their control, things that they rely on yet OTHER companies to do for them. Again, I understand your frustration, but really, the only thing to do is to express your frustration here, hope for an update, and trust them to get the best product out in the best time. Really, they want your money, and they know that they are only going to be successful by making the best product possible.

Thread: Re: Delayed until November???

BrenoK — 2008-05-06T12:06:37+00:00

To delay isn't bad service. Faulty components and lack of play-testing is bad service.

I'm pretty sure Jay would love to have all of our Gathering Storm money in June instead of November, but sometimes things don't go the expected path.

Thread: Re: Delayed until November???

jtakagi — 2008-05-05T11:33:06+00:00

Beowuulf1 wrote:
I'm not suggesting a mass boycott. I am just voting with my pocket book - three games I have been looking for have been delayed due to RGG - RTFG reprint, RTFG: TGS, and Galaxy Trucker reprint (first print run was extremely underproduced).

I understand that running a business is difficult. However, given a choice, I am not going to continue to patronize a business that provides bad service. Now there are a couple of ways RGG can provide better service:

1) They can be more conservative with their projected release dates. 3,4,5 delays is not acceptable.

2) They can acknowledge delays more appropriately. Changing a date on the website is not sufficient for a highly anticipated game. Perhaps a short blurb on the cause of the delay will help convince us that the new date will stick.

3) Reasonably sized print runs. I reserved the second copy of Galaxy Trucker from a local vendor who ordered a few of them. Guess how many were provided - one.

If you boycott RGG because of delays you will never buy any of their games again. The number of games that have not had delays must be very small indeed.

I think that perhaps in the information age we definitely expect a lot out of these small companies. We often get upset if Valley Games doesn't post replies immediately in the BGG forums, or now if RGG doesn't keep up to date on its website. Days of Wonder seems to have the right approach in keeping tight-lipped in order to avoid disappointment (though the Memoir 44 bag has definitely broken that pattern).

Regarding the Galaxy Trucker print run, I'm pretty sure that RGG simply imported copies of the game - I don't know if they actually piggybacked on a print run like they usually do.

Thread: Re: Delayed until November???

Beowuulf1 — 2008-05-05T10:55:57+00:00

I'm not suggesting a mass boycott. I am just voting with my pocket book - three games I have been looking for have been delayed due to RGG - RTFG reprint, RTFG: TGS, and Galaxy Trucker reprint (first print run was extremely underproduced).

I understand that running a business is difficult. However, given a choice, I am not going to continue to patronize a business that provides bad service. Now there are a couple of ways RGG can provide better service:

1) They can be more conservative with their projected release dates. 3,4,5 delays is not acceptable.

2) They can acknowledge delays more appropriately. Changing a date on the website is not sufficient for a highly anticipated game. Perhaps a short blurb on the cause of the delay will help convince us that the new date will stick.

3) Reasonably sized print runs. I reserved the second copy of Galaxy Trucker from a local vendor who ordered a few of them. Guess how many were provided - one.

Thread: Re: Preordered

Stexe — 2008-05-05T10:23:42+00:00

I'm in the same boat as you. Thankfully, Agricola got delayed until June so both of them coming together is much more likely now! Let's hope for no more delays....

Thread: Re: Delayed until November???

Isamoor — 2008-05-05T10:20:34+00:00

Beowuulf1 wrote:
I heard from a local vendor that he heard that the expansion is delayed until November. Is there any truth to this rumor? If so, I'm going to boycott RGG until this expansion is released . . .

True or not, I don't see how a boycott will give Jay the right incentive to go ahead with production. If we all quit buying his games, I'd think it more likely he'd just get out of the business...

And I agree with the above poster, trust the RGG newsletter to be a more accurate source.

Thread: Re: Delayed until November???

Nordiska — 2008-05-05T10:16:06+00:00

according to the riograndegames newletter dated 5/5/08 it will be released June/July

Thread: Re: How many more starting planets are there?

arkibet — 2008-05-05T08:27:54+00:00

Interesting... I was wondering about adding a bidding system to bid for worlds by paying from your initial 6 cards.

Old Earth really needs all the help it can get! That's a tough one to play.

Thread: Re: Preordered

quartex — 2008-05-05T08:13:41+00:00

The Rio Grande newsletter now says "June/July". I just hope we see it by the end of the summer. :(

http://riograndegames.com/news.html?id=14

Thread: Re: Preordered

Bagherra — 2008-05-05T05:32:34+00:00

maybe they're trying to ship concurrently with Agricola :D