Game: Hare & Tortoise

Thread: Re: Hare and Hedgehog rides again...

Great Dane — 2008-08-12T14:08:26+00:00

The only reason to wait is purely if you prefer the 'classic' graphics instead of the 'comic' look of the RGG version.

Thread: Re: Hare and Hedgehog rides again...

Kestril — 2008-08-12T12:40:03+00:00

Does anyone know about a 2008 English version yet? David's web page mentions that he should have info by February 2008...
I'm still trying to figure out if the Rio Grande version is best, or if I should wait for this new one, if/when it comes out.

Thread: Re: What you need to know and what people think about Hare & Tortoise

Sphere — 2008-08-09T02:59:47+00:00

RDewsbery wrote:
Does this mean that I'm entitled to review the reviews of the review, that does no more than review earlier reviews?

Absolutely, so long as it's posted in the "Reviews of Reviews of Reviews" section.

Thread: Re: What you need to know and what people think about Hare & Tortoise

RDewsbery — 2008-08-08T14:44:28+00:00

Does this mean that I'm entitled to review the reviews of the review, that does no more than review earlier reviews?

Thread: Re: What you need to know and what people think about Hare & Tortoise

Keng Ho — 2008-08-08T11:21:07+00:00

I've not come across other reviews of reviews on BGG, so when I read this, I thought this was an interesting exercise in summarising the existing diverse opinions on the game. This could have some value insomuch as it gives a flavour of what other people have said about the game, without your having to read the individual remarks on different pages.

I'd say there was some similarity with an approach used in scientific research - the systematic review. It is secondary research, but its value lies in pulling together all the primary research, appraising and synthesising it to give an overview of the topic. I thought the review was also strengthened by the description of what was done (so you know what the conclusions were based on).

Thread: Re: What you need to know and what people think about Hare & Tortoise

Great Dane — 2008-08-08T09:26:11+00:00

EndersGame wrote:

I've skimmed through the reviews and scoured the personal comments, and carefully organized some key quotations to bring you the important things you need to know and what other people think about Hare & Tortoise.

1. Hare and Tortoise is an award winning classic race game.
"Hare and Tortoise is one of the first Spiel des Jahres winning games...

If you had skimmed a little more, you would know that it was THE first!

Thread: Re: What you need to know and what people think about Hare & Tortoise

ideogram — 2008-08-08T09:01:22+00:00

I found this interesting and informative However, I do agree that it is not really a "review" and come to think of it I am miffed that this got accepted by GeekMod and my attempt at a review did not. So I would like to see more like this just not categorized as a "review".

Thread: Re: What you need to know and what people think about Hare & Tortoise

Sphere — 2008-08-08T03:06:31+00:00

No problem, Ender. There are plenty of reviews to go around, and I don't expect them all to suit me.

EndersGame wrote:
2. I discussed the pros and cons of the game's theme, mechanics and other aspects of the game with a fellow gamer.

That's the bit I would have been interested in.

Thread: Re: What you need to know and what people think about Hare & Tortoise

EndersGame — 2008-08-08T02:01:09+00:00

I had no intention of creating any controversy by posting this - it was simply a systematic attempt to share some reflections about the game. In the interests of full disclosure, here's the process I followed in crafting the above:

1. I played the game.
2. I discussed the pros and cons of the game's theme, mechanics and other aspects of the game with a fellow gamer.
3. I made a list of my six key points (listed in bold print above) that I wanted to make in a review. These are my own reactions and reflections, in my own words.
4. I read the current reviews of the game (there are only four).
5. I skimmed the 600+ Personal Comments on the game (this is where nearly all the quotes are from, only a couple are from reviews), selected some pertinent quotations that supported my key points, and organized them accordingly.
6. I sent the resulting work to a friend/gamer.
7. As an afterthought, I decided to post it as a review, thinking it might be helpful to others who are also looking for an overview of the game (one of the purposes of a review).

All in all, it is probably just as much work as any other review, but is just a different approach. It's by no means a patchwork of the existing reviews, and could in fact prove useful by distilling some of the key points made by others in the Personal Comments, but in an organized fashion by hanging them on the coat-hangers of my own thoughts. Voila - you see the result, and I'd like to think it's a useful contribution along with the other four existing reviews, and quite distinct from them.

But back to the main program... I'd welcome any interaction with the six main key points about the game made in my review. Are these a fair assessment of Hare & Tortoise?

Thread: Re: What you need to know and what people think about Hare & Tortoise

Sphere — 2008-08-08T01:47:54+00:00

I don't care what he gets. I simply don't think that cutting and pasting other people's comments, without attribution, constitutes a review. A review should, at minimum, assure me that the contributor has played the game, and inform me about his reaction to doing so.

If I want quotes from other people's ratings, I'll click 'Analyze' on the game page and see what my geekbuddies have to say.

Thread: Re: What you need to know and what people think about Hare & Tortoise

verandi — 2008-08-08T01:33:35+00:00

Well being that it's made up of fragments of reviews, I don't see how you could classify it as anything other than a review. What's the big deal- that he's getting a couple GG for it? Who cares!

Thread: Re: What you need to know and what people think about Hare & Tortoise

gmonk — 2008-08-08T00:58:07+00:00

Ditto. It's not a review, this is a digest or summary of other reviews.

Thread: Re: What you need to know and what people think about Hare & Tortoise

Sphere — 2008-08-07T22:43:24+00:00

It seems to be the fashion to review the review, lately, so I'll give my opinion. I think that a piece which has well under 10% of original content from the author should not qualify as a review.

If there is an audience who is comfortable with your editing and selection, they might find this useful. I'd suggest "Ender's Digest" as a title, and release in the General section, not Reviews.

Thread: What you need to know and what people think about Hare & Tortoise

EndersGame — 2008-08-07T22:01:49+00:00

I've skimmed through the reviews and scoured the personal comments, and carefully organized some key quotations to bring you the important things you need to know and what other people think about Hare & Tortoise. Perhaps you could call this a kind of "consensus of opinion" - biased of course, because I'm the one who gets to pick the quotes to include. Nevertheless, here you have it, an at-a-glance overview of some of the majority opinions that you need to know about this game.

1. Hare and Tortoise is an award winning classic race game.
"Hare and Tortoise is one of the first Spiel des Jahres winning games, and is justifiably called a classic."
"Hare and Tortoise helps math skills, planning skills, and is fun for both kids and adults."
"Classic strategic race game. One of the best ever."
"This is the best racing game ever and one of the best hand management games ever. Use your carrots and your turns wisely; plod along like the tortoise or take your chances with the die roll on the hare spaces."
"Unique strategy racing game. Sort of an advanced Cartagena."
"This is a BRILLIANT, fun game! I like the handicaps that are built into the system when players fall behind."
"Very original movement mechanic and plenty of stressful decisions for a game that can be explained in 3 minutes. A great way to introduce non-gamers and younger gamers to German board games and as the first SDJ winner, a worthy addition to any collection."
"An excellent race game that has less analysis paralysis, more strategy, and more interaction than first impressions would indicate. It strikes the right balance between tactical choices and mathematical calculations."
"This classic race game still gets played at our club and still packs a lot into an older design. Well deserving of Game of the Year and an entry in the Games Hall of Fame."

2. The fable-like theme and the visual artwork is appealing.
"The game is very attractive: a delightfully illustrated board, pretty cards and wooden tokens."
"Beautiful artwork."

3. Despite appearances, this is not a family game for young children.
"I believed I was getting a family game and Hare & Tortoise is NOT a family game"
"I'll play it from time to time, but I don't think I could talk my family into it."
"I would not recommend this for the lower grades. Crossing the finish line can be pretty difficult."
"Very cool game - looks like a kid's game but definitely deep strategy."
"I thought this might have been a kids' game, but it can be challenging even for a 10 year old."
"Note that despite the graphics that appeal to kids, because of the calculation involved, this game would be difficult for them to win without help. "
"Don't let the childish appearance fool you. This is a pretty deep game."
"Looks and feels like a children's game, but too difficult to be that."
"A 'kid game' on the surface, but has a lot of depth."

4. The amount of players changes the game, and it is perhaps best with four players.
"Although it says it's for 2-6 players, I think it plays best with at least four."
"I can't help it, but I love this game; particularly with 4+ players. "
"I do love this game, but tend to get it out when there are exactly 5 to play. Any less and the positioning is a bit too predictable, any more and the queues for the lettuce spaces bog it down a bit too much for my liking."
"I have tried this game with more than 3 and I did not care for how the game played. I prefer to play with three players."
"It plays well with any number, though it gets a bit chaotic with the full complement of players, and the length is just right."

5. There's a lot of math and tactical calculating.

Either you'll hate this.
"Like doing maths problems for fun. Without the fun."
"It's got a - very lightly - pasted on theme of a hare & tortoise race (although you are supposedly playing as both), but it really is just an exercise in number crunching."
"More of a pondering math exercise than a game."
"As a kids game, I think this is a tad too complex/mathy to be especially 'fun'."
"Too much addition and subtraction for my taste."
"This game is pretty interesting but there is too much math in it for me. I prefer the simpler and more elegant version of the mechanics with Cartegena."
"Ugly and tedious. Feels like a mathematics educational tool for elementary schools."

Or you'll love this.
"It's a very clever exercise in arithmetic which David Parlett has fashioned into an entertaining and unique perennial favorite.""
"Often people who've played it know that it's too mathematical and don't want to play again. However that's what excites me about it."
"Some people may like this type of game quite a bit with tactical interaction and denying people bonuses but it is a calculation game."
"It's held up well, has been published by at least three publishers over the years, and is still an excellent choice when you have 4-6 players and want an interesting race game that is more skill than luck."
"In theory, this is a brilliant game. In practice, it's pretty good. You are racing forward (and sometimes backward), trying to manage your carrots and simultaneously hurt your opponents by landing on a key square, or arranging it so that they start their turn on a numbered square that they don't match (or do, if they are overburdened with carrots near the end of the race). It's a great game for mixed (kids and adults) company because it teaches math, has a good strategy to luck ratio, and is fun."
"The Hare spaces are the hardest to discuss. Results can be wonderful or disastrous. Most people save them for when they're desperate, but others play them just because they like chaos. Take your choice."
"There is good variety in the strategies available and scope for tactical play too."

6. The bottom line: what you need to know.
This classic race game has stood the test of time, and whether you'll enjoy it depends on the amount of players and your taste for gameplay with tactical calculation.

Thread: Re: ludagora

Great Dane — 2008-08-05T09:10:31+00:00

Some versions of the game uses one die plus adding your position, while other others simply add two dice (and nothing else).

It appears as if Ludagora has implemented the variant using two dice.

Thread: ludagora

ideogram — 2008-08-05T08:02:09+00:00

I have a question and of course the forums are all French.

I have a game with the optional Table rules and someone in second place rolled a 2??? I thought you were supposed to roll one die and add your place to it, so his minimum should be 3? Or does the ludagora implementation just roll two dice for you?

If there is anywhere else I can get help in English for ludagora please let me know.

Thread: Re: Advanced David Parlett Variant

chaosbreaker — 2008-06-22T02:37:15+00:00

The designer changed preferred method for the Hare square :

from

* cannot not land on Hare square

to

* landing on Hare square--take nap and lose 1 turn

Thread: Re: Hare and Hedgehog rides again...

Der Das — 2008-06-17T15:12:53+00:00

Quoted from David Parlett's website...
For this new edition Ravensburger are reverting to the rustic style of their original design but are also incorporating two significant modifications that will make it, as far as I'm concerned, the definitive edition.

First, it will use the re-arrangement of the race-track layout introduced in 1987 for the Gibson Games edition and repeated in 2000 by Abacus. Pretty well everybody agreed that this was a great improvement on the original arrangement of 1974 and 1979.

The second modification - completely new for 2008 - concerns the method of "jugging the hare". ...
For more information, read here: http://www.davidparlett.co.uk/haretort/htrides.html

Thread: Re: Advanced David Parlett Variant

Larry Levy — 2008-06-16T22:01:49+00:00

I feel the exact same way. I've played Hare & Tortoise, I don't know, maybe 20 times, and I may have landed on Hare spaces as many as twice. I never land on them unless there's absolutely no other alternative. I've also very rarely seen anyone who received any benefit from a Hare space (including munching a lettuce) win. So it's not only a personal preference, I also think it's good play.

Thread: Advanced David Parlett Variant

chaosbreaker — 2008-06-16T21:02:25+00:00

Advanced David Parlett Variant

New This is the preferred use of the Hare square by the game Designer.

Nap time--landing on a Hare square causes the player to take a nap and lose one turn.

... you can land on them [Hare squares], but must miss a turn. This would be the equivalent of the hare taking a nap, as in Aesop's fable. This is the rule I most favour and would prefer it to simply not landing on them at all, ... I'll add this to my web pages.

Two other ways suggested by David Parlett:

* Free Parking Hare
You can land on them [Hare squares], but do nothing. (Equivalent of Free Parking!)

* 10 Carrots
Somebody made another suggestion, which I rather like but have slightly modified: When you land on a hare square, you do nothing immediately. On your next turn, however, the cost of moving forward is a fixed and invariable 10 carrots per square. This makes it more expensive to move forward UNLESS you advance at least 20 squares, which costs 200 carrots instead of the 210 required by normal rules. This, however, can be an advantage if you are within reach of home but are in possession of too many carrots, as it enables you to lose an excess without losing position or tempo.

These suggestions were taken from an email correspondence with the game designer, David Parlett.

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jsper — 2008-05-18T17:54:37+00:00

Information sheet in german Hase

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sroney — 2008-03-17T00:21:36+00:00

Closeup of original Intellect edition in play

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teabo — 2008-02-24T01:42:35+00:00

Rio Grande edition: contents.

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af7hqs — 2008-02-20T11:41:42+00:00

My personalized version of the board

Thread: Re: Question about hedgehog space, hare actions and square "1-5-6"

af7hqs — 2008-02-19T13:17:46+00:00

OK, thanks again. Now it's completely clear.

Thread: Re: Question about hedgehog space, hare actions and square "1-5-6"

Great Dane — 2008-02-19T12:40:41+00:00

Okay. In your example will the last vacant Hare space be #03, so you must move back to this space. If this space had also been occupied would you have to move back to space #01.

You simply go backwards until you reach a Hare space. The only exception would be if there aren't any vacant Hare spaces between you and Start, in which case you ignore the instruction (the "if any" part).

Thread: Re: Question about hedgehog space, hare actions and square "1-5-6"

af7hqs — 2008-02-19T11:39:53+00:00

Great Dane wrote:

You move back to the first avaialble hare space. It says "if any" because if you are on the very first Hare space, then there won't be any, and you cannot move backwards.

Hi Mik,
thank you very much for the answers. They all are clear, apart from the second.

I'll try to explain better with an example. Let's suppose we are in the following situation:

01-H
02-C
03-H
04-3
05-C
06-H -> occupied square
07-1
08-2
09-4
10-L
11-T
12-3
13-C
14-H -> My current position

I've arrived on the 14th square and I have to "move back to the last vacant hare square (if any)". Square 6 is occupied.

What is last vacant square? What do I have to do?

Thread: Re: Question about hedgehog space, hare actions and square "1-5-6"

Great Dane — 2008-02-19T10:54:50+00:00

af7hqs wrote:
Question concerning "hedgehog space" - The rules say: "If the closest hedgehog space is occupied, the player may not move backwards. However, a player may move backwards from one hedgehog space to another, as long as the second hedgehog space is unoccupied.". So, during the same turn, can I move back to the first free hedgehog space, then to a second free hedgehog space, paying all the necessary carrots? Or do I have just to stop on the first space?
Hi Antonio.
You can only ever move backwards to the FIRST Hedgehog (Tortoise) space - and obviously ONLY if it is vacant. So only one Hegdehog space at a time. You can go back to the other Hedgehog in your NEXT turn - as that now will be your first hedgehog space when moving backwards.

Question concerning an hare action (Ravensburger edition) - Action says: "Move back to the last vacant hare square (if any).". Do I have to check only the closest square and move to it, if it is free; or, if the closest one is occupied, do I have to find the next free square? (a sort of recursive backward analysis...) You move back to the first avaialble hare space. It says "if any" because if you are on the very first Hare space, then there won't be any, and you cannot move backwards.

Question about square "1-5-6" - Do you think it's better to have such a square (Abacus) or is it better to have just the square "1" (Ravensburger).
I don't think it matters. It will be very rare for someone to be in the position where they would either be in front of everybody else (the "1") or behind everybody else ("5/6") during the same round.

Thread: Question about hedgehog space, hare actions and square "1-5-6"

af7hqs — 2008-02-19T10:09:28+00:00

Question concerning "hedgehog space" - The rules say: "If the closest hedgehog space is occupied, the player may not move backwards. However, a player may move backwards from one hedgehog space to another, as long as the second hedgehog space is unoccupied.". So, during the same turn, can I move back to the first free hedgehog space, then to a second free hedgehog space, paying all the necessary carrots? Or do I have just to stop on the first space?

Question concerning an hare action (Ravensburger edition) - Action says: "Move back to the last vacant hare square (if any).". Do I have to check only the closest square and move to it, if it is free; or, if the closest one is occupied, do I have to find the next free square? (a sort of recursive backward analysis...)

Question about square "1-5-6" - Do you think it's better to have such a square (Abacus) or is it better to have just the square "1" (Ravensburger).

Bye,
Antonio

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jsper — 2008-02-12T16:24:05+00:00

Rulebook cover in german

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jsper — 2008-02-12T16:19:20+00:00

Thread: Re: New Jugging the Hare cards

Great Dane — 2008-02-05T12:38:04+00:00

Hi Antonio,
if you're buying it for your kid, you should buy a version he/she can understand. Unless you want to translate the table/cards yourself.

Other than that it really doesn't matter which version you buy. The difference are minor and they only matters to hardcore fanatics.

I have the original, which is fine save for two minor niggles of which the most important is the placement of the first lettuce space. This was corrected in the Gibson edition (and all later editions).

So I would have bought the abacus/Rio Grande edition if it wasn't for the silly cartoonlike graphics which are not nearly as nice as the original 'victorian' graphics.

This is why I have bought the new Ravensburger version, which is almost as good as the Gibson edition (which IMO is still the best).

The new Ravensburger edition uses 15 cards for the hare spaces, and they have been especially developed with kids in mind (I believe) so it should be perfect for you.

I have simply added a die to my game and added a label with the Gibson table on the back of the Runner cards so that it is possible to play the game both ways.

So buy the abacus edition if you like the graphics or wait for the new Ravensburger edition (which is out in Germany now) if you prefer the 'classic' look.

Thread: Re: New Jugging the Hare cards

af7hqs — 2008-02-05T10:52:59+00:00

I'd like to buy this game for my child, but... at this point which edition do you suggest? I thought Rav-2008 is the best, resolving some problems, more balanced, but after reading these first comments I have some doubts...

My preferred shop has Abacus edition. Do I have to buy it or do I have to wait for the 2008 editon? Or maybe I have to look for the Gibson edition somwhere?

Thank you for any suggestion.

A.

Thread: Hare and Hedgehog rides again...

Great Dane — 2008-01-31T16:37:24+00:00

The new Ravensburger edition is beautiful and wellmade - except for two minor niggles:

1) Although they have numbered the spaces as requested by many players - they have forgotten to reverse the numbers, thus making the information less usefull. It is far more important to know how many spaces you have to reach goal, than to know how far you are from home. Deep sigh.

2) The plastic insert have 6 nice trays for the card values, so that it is easy to keep the Carrot cards tidy during a game - but unfortunately have someone at Ravensburger not realised that they had decided to increase the number of denominations from 6 to 7! Even deeper sigh...

Otherwise it is a solid and beautiful production.
But the Gibson edition from 1987 is still the best to date!

Thread: Re: New Jugging the Hare cards

stmountain — 2008-01-13T11:12:31+00:00

rri1 wrote:
I haven't played with these cards yet, but I think the risk of the hare spaces (unless you have very few carrots left--regardless of position) outweighs their benefit, making them rarely chosen to be landed upon.

Played with them yesterday. As you said, in general they don't benefit the player even if he in last position. At least they benefit the leader, with them you easily can get rid of carrots.

I'm not happy with the Abacus/Rio Grande rules ether, the hare spaces are far too powerful in this edition.

Next time I will play with the original rules descriped here http://www.boardgamegeek.com/thread/265377

Image

jsper — 2008-01-12T13:50:40+00:00

Side of the box Abacus Spiele edition

Thread: "Jugging the Hare" as the designer intended

Great Dane — 2007-12-29T13:44:51+00:00

It appears that very few editions have incorporated the rules as preferred by David Parlett. I have never liked the Hare spaces in the editions I have played, simply due to the fact that it was too easy to 'Eat a lettuce'.

On the other hand do I recognise the need for this action in games with 5 or 6 players - which is why the designer's original table is so great. Notice that only a player in 5th or 6th position will be able to eat Lettuce.

The tabel is part of the rules found at http://www.davpar.com/haretort/htrules.html

JUGGING THE HARE
Roll a 6-sided die and add your position in the race:

2 - Move back to the last vacant Hare square.
3 - Miss a turn.
4 - Move back to the last vacant Carrot square (if any).
5 - Chew a carrot. (Draw 10 out or pay 10 in).
6 - Restore your carrot holding to exactly 65. (If you have more, pay in; otherwise draw out).
7 - Free turn. (Reclaim carrots paid to reach this Hare square).
8 - Lose exactly half your carrots. If there's an odd one, keep it).
9 - Have another turn.
10 - Move forward (free) to the next vacant Carrot square (if any).
11 - Chew a Lettuce. (If you have any Lettuces, treat this Hare square exactly as if it were a Lettuce square).
12 - Restore your carrot holding to exactly 65.

Thread: Re: Carrot question...

Great Dane — 2007-12-29T13:01:40+00:00

fmoros wrote:
..mmm.. what is the answer to #2 question?vosos102 wrote:
2. If you have to leap ahead of an opponent due to a die roll, and the space directly ahead of them is a hedgehog, can you still make the move?
This is answered by the original (1973 Intellect) rules:

"Move up one position: Move forward, at no cost, to the square immediately in front of the player positioned ahead of you. If this square is occupied or an illegal square for you (eg. a lettuce square when you have chewed all your lettuces), take the nearest occupiable square to the player in front of you. (Even if this means you move forward two positions instead of one.)

Note: The finishing space on the board counts as an occupiable square in applying this rule."

So, in case of the space being a Hedgehog/turtle, you simply skip that space and move further forward to the first vacant legal space.

Thread: Re: New Jugging the Hare cards

Great Dane — 2007-12-25T17:28:36+00:00

rri1 wrote:
I haven't played with these cards yet, but I think the risk of the hare spaces (unless you have very few carrots left--regardless of position) outweighs their benefit, making them rarely chosen to be landed upon.

Which is how many of us have always preferred to play anyway.

I hope David one day will create a board completely without 'Hare' spaces!

Thread: New Jugging the Hare cards

rri1 — 2007-12-25T15:02:36+00:00

In the new 2008 Ravensberger edition, David Parlett has announced a new method of Jugging the Hare, essentially there will be 8 different cards in the deck with each appearing (except the reshuffle which appears once:

1) Give 10 carrots to each player lying behind you in the race (if any) (If you haven't enough carrots, give them five each; if still not possible, one each. A player who doesn't want extra carrots may throw them to the carrot patch.)
2) If there are more players behind you than in front of you, miss a turn. If not, play again. (If equal, of course, play again)
3) Restore your carrot holding to exactly 65. If you have more than 65, pay extras to the carrot patch; if fewer, draw extras from the carrot patch.
4) Draw 10 carrots for each lettuce you still hold. If you have none left, miss a turn
5) Free ride! Your last turn costs nothing: retrieve the carrots you paid to reach this square
6) Lose half your carrots. If an odd number, keep the odd one.
7) Show us your carrots! Count your carrot cards face up to the table so that everyone will know how many you have left
8) Shuffle the hare cards and receive from each player 1 carrot for doing so. Do not replace this card at the bottom of the pack but include it in the shuffle.

Here is the website with the announcement:
http://www.davidparlett.co.uk/haretort/htrides.html

Comments:
There are no more "free lettuces" Which I think is a good thing.

The rest I am not so sure about.
- The goal is to give the advantage to currently losing players. But, The problem is that those players also often have a lot of carrots and may be hurt more by card 3 & 6 than they are helped by cards 1 & 2 (Actually Card 1 hurts all players who draw it, except Tailend Charlie (whom it does not help.) and only helps trailing players when the card is drawn by players ahead of them.) If you have over 100 carrots, Cards 3 & 6 are MAJOR penalties that are not matched by the benefits of 1 & 2.
- Card 1's rules are pretty clunky.
- If you very few carrots left (say under than where you pay 5/player behind you), the penalty drops to very little and card 3 would provide a significant boost. If I am first place in a 6 player game with 24 carrots or less: Card 1 costs me 5, but Card 3 gives me at least 41!
- The inverse of Card #1: Each player ahead of you gives you 10 carrots (If they have less than 10, then they give 5, And less than 5, they give 1.) would help the last place player immensely. But, alas, that card does not appear.
- Card 4 makes the Hare spaces less valuable over the course of the game, to the point where they add another penalty card if you have eaten all of your lettuce.
- Card 7: Knowing an opponent's number of carrots isn't all that important or helpful. So you have 37 carrots available, so if you were within 8 spaces of a space I need to land on, that might make a difference. But I would assume that's possible anyway--because that isn't all that many carrots! If it is longer distance to affect me, then I know you need progressively more carrots and even if I don't have an exact, even a rough count will suffice. He has 150 carrots or so, he can go 14 or 15 spaces--but unlikely to be able to make 16.
- The "hidden, but trackable" contingent will argue you can always keep track, so carrot count should be public anyway.

I haven't played with these cards yet, but I think the risk of the hare spaces (unless you have very few carrots left--regardless of position) outweighs their benefit, making them rarely chosen to be landed upon.

Thread: Re: Why is it called "Jugging"

Great Dane — 2007-12-15T12:16:09+00:00

From the designer, David Parlett, whom I had the great pleasure of meeting in Essen a couple of years ago:

Dear Mik

Yes, it is indeed a reference to the old dish of jugged hare. I used it
simply because the phrase happened to come automatically to mind.
However, it was slightly more appropriate in the original prototype of
the game and in the Gibsons/Abacus edition, as the procedure to be
followed involved rolling a die. I always used a dice cup for this, and
imagined the cup to be the jug and the die the hare. I'm afraid that's
as close as I can get to a sensible answer!

Thread: Re: Alternate rule for jugging the hare

grandslam — 2007-12-14T16:09:41+00:00

Forgive this, as I have not played in quite a while, but could giving up a lettuce be integrated into the sequence, such as Ditch 8 carrots to move six spaces or to discard a lettuce? Let elegant, but permits allocation of a resource to either moving forward or discarding a lettuce.

Thread: Re: Why is it called "Jugging"

Larry Levy — 2007-12-14T15:41:32+00:00

I suspect it's simply because people have heard the term "jugged hare" and have whimsically applied it to the game. But I always wondered what exactly it meant. Thanks, Mik, and good question, Christoph.

Thread: Re: Alternate rule for jugging the hare

atholbrose — 2007-12-14T15:40:20+00:00

Friendless wrote:
In a 6 player game the track is very crowded and jugging the hare is an important way of getting lettuces eaten. Otherwise, I like your idea.
This is why I'm really ambivalent about the new version, which will remove lettuce-eating from the hare-jugging possibilities. (See David Parlett's page on the changes here.) It also has a deck of hare cards to draw from instead of a chart to roll a die against. I do like that they're ditching the silly car-racing theme and going back to a more pastoral style of artwork.

Thread: Re: Why is it called "Jugging"

Great Dane — 2007-12-14T14:25:51+00:00

"Jugged Hare" is a medieval dish in which you can hide the fact that the hare is not as young (or fresh) as it should be. By mixing the meat with lots of different berries, marinated with red wine and often also mixed with its own blood. All meshed together in a jug.

I guess the term is used for the spaces as the various outcome (whether cards or dice) can also be considered a 'mishmash'.

Thread: Why is it called "Jugging"

flieger — 2007-12-14T14:13:14+00:00

Landing on a hare space and drawing an event card is being referred to as "Jugging the hare."
Why?

Thread: Re: Alternate rule for jugging the hare

Friendless — 2007-12-14T12:16:24+00:00

In a 6 player game the track is very crowded and jugging the hare is an important way of getting lettuces eaten. Otherwise, I like your idea.

Thread: Alternate rule for jugging the hare

onigame — 2007-12-14T00:29:43+00:00

I came up with this variant when Jonathan Degann challenged us to come up with a more Euro-game-like way of treating the hare space.

For those of you who feel that the randomness involved in the hare spaces detracts from what is otherwise a game with no random elements, try this variant:

When landing on a hare space, nothing happens. However, when moving from a hare space, the carrot cost is different:

1 space: 1 carrot
2 spaces: 1 carrot
3 spaces: 2 carrots
4 spaces: 3 carrots
5 spaces: 5 carrots
6 spaces: 8 carrots
7 spaces: 13 carrots
8 spaces: 21 carrots
9 spaces: 34 carrots
10 spaces: 55 carrots
11 spaces: 89 carrots
12 spaces: 144 carrots
13 spaces: 233 carrots
14 spaces: 377 carrots
15 spaces: 610 carrots

... and so on, where the cost of each space is the sum of the costs of the two spaces before it.

The effect is that hare sprints better than normal (cheaper carrots if the distance is less than 10 spaces), but is very inefficient at long distances (if the distance is more than 10 spaces, the carrot count quickly becomes unmanagable).

Incidentally, this sequence is known as the Fibonacci sequence, first studied in the Western World by Leonardo of Pisa when he was calculating the growth of an idealized rabbit population.

Image

Typse2Fsat — 2007-12-13T14:29:54+00:00

Stack of markers

Image

CinMel — 2007-12-03T18:49:43+00:00

Rio Grande Games edition - front of box

Image

CinMel — 2007-12-03T18:47:17+00:00

Rio Grande Games edition - back of box

Thread: Re: I Just Want a Quiet Place to Sit and Eat My Lettuce

Great Dane — 2007-06-20T09:32:45+00:00

Yeah, but kids and adults who are not good with numbers (I am hopeless at stockmarket games, but I can still manage H&T) can still use the random Hare spaces to catch up with the better players.

This one of the nice features that makes it playable for both skilled and unskilled gamers.

Thread: Re: I Just Want a Quiet Place to Sit and Eat My Lettuce

Friendless — 2007-06-19T23:29:09+00:00

Natus wrote:
So most people you know don't like this? I own it but haven't yet played. What's the gist?

It's a very clever game as Mik says but there's almost no luck involved and you need to be thinking about a lot of numbers to do well. I can understand that people who like negotiation may not appreciate this game, and if you find the numbers intimidating you should stay away.

Thread: Re: I Just Want a Quiet Place to Sit and Eat My Lettuce

Great Dane — 2007-06-19T13:09:01+00:00

Yuglooc wrote:
Unfortunately, "jugging the hare" is virtually mandatory for players near the end of the line.

Bah. Humbug!
It is possible to to win the game from any position without ever jugging the hare.

I am usually not a fan of mathematical games, but this is an exception. It is a very clever game!

Thread: Re: I Just Want a Quiet Place to Sit and Eat My Lettuce

Yuglooc — 2007-06-19T12:57:24+00:00

Unfortunately, "jugging the hare" is virtually mandatory for players near the end of the line. Especially with five or six players, there will be much competition for the first two lettuce squares. Typically, at least one of your three lettuces will be consumed after successfully jugging.

Thread: Re: I Just Want a Quiet Place to Sit and Eat My Lettuce

crystalpunk — 2007-06-19T12:27:59+00:00

Hare and Tortoise was designed/invented by David Parlett who is a really interesting person. He has published zillions of books on cardgames. But the one book you would want to read is his "Oxford History of Boardgames" which is an absolute classic in my humble opinion.
Here is his website:

http://www.davidparlett.co.uk/

Thread: Re: I Just Want a Quiet Place to Sit and Eat My Lettuce

Natus — 2007-06-19T11:16:11+00:00

So most people you know don't like this? I own it but haven't yet played. What's the gist?

Thread: I Just Want a Quiet Place to Sit and Eat My Lettuce

Friendless — 2007-06-19T05:32:22+00:00

On Friday night at Critical Mass we played a game of Hare and Tortoise. I like this game a lot but it's hard to find an audience for it - some people, the kid included, find it too mathematical and won't play a second time. Luckily I managed to find 4 people who hadn't played before and the kid temporarily forgot how much he disliked it, and we were able to play with 6 players.

My first mistake was to randomly choose the player to my left to start the game. If I was first player I'd go straight away to the lettuce on space 54, but as last player that wasn't an option - the track in front of me was very crowded. There's also no way to get back to that lettuce - the first tortoise is in the space after it.

Of course by the time I got to the second lettuce it was crowded as well, and waiting to get onto it didn't work either as someone else was doing that. So I rushed off to the third lettuce, and someone beat me to that as well. So I tortoise-hopped back to the second lettuce... By that time everyone else was in the vicinity of the third lettuce, so I was able to peacefully eat two lettuces while the leaders approached the finish line. With all of the going backwards (not to mention eating lettuces in 6th place) I had a stack of carrots, so I rushed to the third lettuce to eat my third. However by then the game was lost - Aaron staggered over the line followed by Keith.

I was hopeful of third place, but I didn't have quite enough carrots to jump all the way to the end, and had to make an intermediate stop. The Evil Count von Walduck and Nigel finally decarroted themselves enough to finish. I charged over in 5th place.

It was a very frustrating game! I knew exactly what I wanted to do but couldn't get onto the right spaces. Waiting only made things worse. What could I have done better? Hmm... maybe I should have jugged the hare. I ignore the hare spaces because of the randomness, but for someone like me hanging around the back of the pack they're probably a useful way to get rid of lettuces. I didn't think of that until near the end of the game when someone mentioned that's what they'd done. Urgh... randomness.

Anyway, that was the 4th time I'd played this game and the first time I'd lost, and I guess I learned something.

Thread: Review by SOS (from 2002)

sos1 — 2007-02-19T23:36:53+00:00

Aesop Would Be Proud

Hare & Tortoise is a classic race game first published in the 1970s. It's held up well, has been published by at least three publishers over the years, and is still an excellent choice when you have 4-6 players and want an interesting race game that is more skill than luck. (Although it says it's for 2-6 players, I think it plays best with at least four.)

The game is very attractive: a delightfully illustrated board, pretty cards and wooden tokens. Every player has a player aid to calculate how much it costs to move and the "Jugging the Hare" table. (This pun is lost on most Americans: think rabbit in a crockpot and you'll be close to what jugging the hare means.)

The concept is simple: each turn you can move like the hare or the tortoise. You pick how fast you go - one space, a dozen, twenty - whatever you want, even backwards. Provided you have enough carrots, of course - it takes energy to move forward, and carrots give you energy. So to move one space takes 1 carrot. To move two spaces takes the one carrot for the first space plus two carrots for the second space = 3 carrots. To move a third space takes the three carrots needed to move two spaces plus three carrots to move to the third space = 6 carrots. And so on - each player aid gives the carrots needed for each space up to 40 spaces (which takes a mere 820 carrots, in case you're curious).

And in case you're really curious, the formula is: required carrots = (N+1)*(N/2), where N equals number of spaces moved. So moving, for example, 20 spaces at once would take (21)*(10) = 210 carrots. But you only need the formula if you lose all your player aid sheets ... or plan on moving more than 40 spaces at once!

You start with enough carrots to finish the race: 65 carrots (95 with 5-6 players) and there are only 64 spaces! Of course, you may want to move more than one space in a turn, so you have to figure out a way to gain more carrots. Fortunately, there are a few ways to do that ...

Basic Course of Play

Carrot cards come in lots of denominations, all with the same backs so that during the game it becomes difficult to know how many carrots a given player has. There are also Lettuce cards - you start with three of these and must get rid of them before you're allowed to finish the race. Choose a start player and you're ready to begin.

The start player simply says how far he wishes to move, pays the required number of carrots, and moves his piece. The second player does likewise, but has one restriction: you can't land on the same space as another player.

What happens when you land depends on the type of space you land on. The board has five different types of squares:

* Number squares
* Carrot squares
* Lettuce squares
* Tortoise squares
* Hare squares

Number squares: these range from 1-4, and the 1s include 5 & 6, too. Nothing happens right away, but on your next turn you may win some carrots. You win carrots equal to 10 X the number you're on if that number equals your position in the race at the start of your next turn. Example: if I land on the number 2, I get twenty carrots on my next turn if I'm in second place. I get nothing if I'm in first, third, or any other place but second.

Carrot squares: nothing happens when you land. On your next turn, though, if you decide not to move you may draw 10 carrots. You can stay there as long as you like: each turn draw 10 carrots. Conversely, you could discard 10 carrots if you stay on such a space. You sometimes need to do that because you're not allowed to finish the race if you have too many carrots in your hand!

Lettuce squares: these allow you to spend your next turn eating a lettuce - discard a lettuce card. You can only stay one turn on a Lettuce space - there aren't very many of them and everyone has to chew their lettuces before they can finish, so there's always a line-up to use these spaces.

Tortoise squares: you can only reach these by going backwards. If you wish to move backward you must stop at the nearest Tortoise square, and only if it's unoccupied. Each space you moved to reach that Tortoise square is multiplied by ten: draw that many carrots. You may move back from one Tortoise square to the next one to draw even more.

Hare squares: these introduce the only luck in the game aside from choosing starting position. When you land on a Hare space, roll a die. Add your current position in the race (1-6) and consult the table on your player aid chart. (In some versions you don't add your position, but cross-reference it.) Results vary from the good to the bad:

* Move backward
* Miss a turn
* Gain carrots
* Lose carrots
* Get a free turn
* Chew a lettuce
* ... and so on.

So the basic course of play is to pay carrots to move forward - or move backwards to gain carrots. Sometimes you sit where you are for a turn or two to gain or lose carrots or a lettuce. You can choose the space you land on, provided you have enough carrots to reach it and no one else is there ahead of you. Pretty straightforward but usually an interesting choice.

Strategies

Oh, there are lots of strategies for this game! That's what makes it so delightful. The basic three are run like a hare, plod like a tortoise, or be somewhere in between. But there are probably others, such as the March Hare strategy: hit all the Hare spaces and roll that die constantly ...

Running like a hare means you rarely have many carrots. You try to keep moving 3-6 spaces most turns, and sit on a carrot space now and then when you have to. You gain 10 carrots on a carrot space if you spend a turn there, and 10 carrots lets you move 4 spaces. So keep moving, never plod, and you'll never have to worry about having too many carrots to finish the race ...

Plodding like a tortoise is hanging out in fifth or sixth place most of the game, just building up a huge hand of carrots. If you're in sixth place and land on a "1-5-6" Number space, on your next turn you'll draw 60 carrots unless someone stops you by dropping back to a tortoise space behind you. But even then, you'll be in fifth place and the same space will give you 50 carrots. Then just when those pesky hares think they have the game won, you smugly lay down 300 carrots and move 24 spaces to win the game!

Being somewhere in between means always looking out for opportunities ahead and behind. You've got to be flexible enough to spend a lot to grab an open lettuce space, and not feel bad about falling back 7 spaces to pick up 70 carrots.

The bottleneck spaces are the lettuce spaces. There are only four of them, and you can't sit on one for more than one turn. You can move backward off one to hit it a second time, though, and it's often a good idea to do so. In a six-player game, there are 18 lettuces that need to be chewed, and only four spaces to chew them all on ... so good lettuce management is key to this game.

It can be important for somebody to try to stop big carrot accumulations on the Number spaces. You may decide it's somebody else's job, though, and just ignore it. But if I'm in fifth place sitting on a "1-5-6" space, I'll get 50 carrots next turn. If you fall back to a Tortoise space behind me, you not only pick up carrots for going backwards, but also put me in fourth place, meaning I get nothing. So there is some defensive play involved - especially since 25 of the spaces are Number spaces!

The Hare spaces are the hardest to discuss. Results can be wonderful or disastrous. Most people save them for when they're desperate, but others play them just because they like chaos. Take your choice.

Why Wouldn't You Like This Game?

Some people claim there's a first-player bias. It's true that the first player can reach a lettuce space on his/her first move, but that costs 55 carrots - over half of your starting allotment even in a 6-player game. Most players think it's worth it, though, and that's a very typical opening move. The other players then have to choose whether to move slowly, hoping to get onto that lettuce space next, or just bypass it and head for the second lettuce space down the path a ways. Either way, some critics claim the first player has an advantage. It may be so, but I've seen the first player lose fairly frequently.

Proposed fix for those who feel there is a first-place bias: bid for the right to go first. High bid starts with fewer carrots. Example: if I bid "8" to go first and no one raises me, I start with eight fewer carrots than anyone else in the game.

Some people don't like the bottlenecks - it can be a bit frustrating trying to maneuver your way onto a lettuce space only to have someone else beat you there yet again. This frustration is probably the biggest flaw in the game - some people just don't like to feel frustration in their entertainment, since most of us have more than enough in our lives. I can't blame them, though I actually don't feel the way they do. I enjoy watching someone play cleverly enough to outmaneuver me. But you may be of a different personality type.

It can be a bit long - most six-player games clock in around an hour, which is fine, but I've seen some go over an hour and a half because of over-analysis. That's a bit long for this type of game. If you play with slow analyzers, this game will probably take a long time - be warned. You could just play Cartagena instead.

Summing Up

A classic. A largely skill game with multiple strategies to follow, with a fun setting and illustrations. Recommended.

Thread: Hare and Tortoise -- Session Report

gschloesser — 2007-01-31T19:33:16+00:00

Most in the group had never played this David Parlett classic. I brought along my German “Hase und Igel” version with the wonderful children’s artwork. We opted to use the “Jugging the Hare” chart as opposed to the card deck.

I held back early, hoping to grab a quick lettuce space. I was delayed a bit, but was able to munch two chunks of lettuce and speed to the front. I was also the first to devour my final lettuce, but found myself with too many carrots to finish the race. So, time would be lost tossing those carrots.

Jim remained close to me through much of the race, and also was forced to delay near the finish line in order to divest himself of some carrots. This allowed Alison to zoom past us. She had calculated well, finishing the race with nine carrots and claiming the victory.

Ratings: Alison 8.5, Gail 8, Rhonda 7.5, Jim 7, Greg 7