Game: Killer Bunnies and the Quest for the Magic Carrot

Thread: Re: Separate Decks

LooseTooth — 2008-11-04T20:12:54+00:00

Jason, opinion noted.

Richard, while I'm not willing to invest in any more expansions at this stage, I like your suggestion about buying dead bunnies and I might give it a go the next time around. (I just hope you don't get crucified for suggesting it.)

Thread: Re: Separate Decks

ras2124 — 2008-11-04T19:51:40+00:00

Another solution would be to buy up to the expansion that lets you buy bunnies who died (2nd or 3rd booster I believe). It's a great mechanic since you can get back really good bunnies who died instead of just random ones, but they come at a cost so I think it would work better than what you suggested. If you don't want to buy the few expansions, you could always just make this a rule by saying dead bunnies can be bought for 10 dolla, but really the first three expansions (red, purple, orange) are great and really make the game as a whole run more smoothly as well as make it more fun. Of course in your situation it might work better with the kids to do how you have suggested, but I think for most people not doing the pile thing and just buying dead bunnies would probably work better.

Thread: Re: Separate Decks

bwayjace — 2008-11-04T19:36:06+00:00

Let me see if I can make this crystal clear.

My opinion is that you are detracting from the game to an extent that you shouldn't even play it. I gave brief points to illustrate why I feel that way. I gave a frame of reference to show where my opinion was coming from and to justify certain points. I fully admited my opinion was unsolicited and only my opinion.

I am unsure why you felt the need to respond with a snarky, sarcastic post. The BoardGameGeek Rules for posting a message are clearly stated on the reply page saying to "use common courtesy" and "respect others". A forum is a place for the purpose of open discussion. As such, not all opinions will align with yours. Putting this post in the BGG forum put your ideas in an area designed for public debate and discussion. I am one that disagrees with what you have posted. You will go farther among the BGG discussion community should you omit comments that take cheap shots at other members for sharing their opinions with you. If you are not willing to take critisism of your variant then perhaps you should not post it on a forum for open discussion where your ideas will be discussed and possibly criticised.

I take offense at your mocking tone and words. If this were the place to trade barbs and to insult each other you would hear (read) the full force of my wit and snarkiness. This is not that place. This is a forum for discussion.

That being said, I would like to give you the full reasoning why I do not personally care for what you have done to the game and further back up my points from my first post. Again, this is my own personal opinion so feel free to stop reading now.

The object of Killer Bunnies is to acquire the Magic Carrot. To do so, you need to have Bunnies in front of you and kill as many of your opponent's Bunnies as you can to increase your chances of having that carrot. The end game is random, decided by a shuffle of the cards. All you can do is improve your chances, not assure your win. As such, while Killer Bunnies has a definite strategy element, it is mostly a Take That game with a lot of luck via the Carrot Deck and the numerous dice rolls.

My issue with your variant is that you have taken a entire, fleshed-out Take That mechanic out of the game and also made it easier to get Bunnies. To expand on another user's anaolgy, that's like playing poker with three or four wild cards: bigger for the sake of being bigger.

(As a side note: since you have removed Cabbage and Water from the game, what do you get when the cards like Supplies Suprise or Magic Fountain come out? Give out more carrots? Or do you remove them along with the Feed the Bunny cards, eliminating a semi-major way of getting Carrots, since they cost 10 Dolla in the market and you have already said you're not getting enough money to buy Cabbage and Water? With your rule set, are the Choose the Carrot cards the only way to get carrots? How long would a game be if you played with all 20 Carrots with those rules?)

It is my opinion that the fun of the game is trying to get Bunnies and killing other people's Bunnies. You have removed a way to do one of those things. I think it's naive to think the designer or the play testers didn't think of this issue. I believe another major mechanic was put into place for specifically that reason: Negotiation. "Wheeling & Dealing: The following practices are highly encouraged during a game of Killer Bunnies: wheeling, dealing, bribery, whining, begging, threatening, extortion, blackmail, groveling and non-violent demonstrations of physical prowess."

You can trade anything. The designers have further clarified this point on their website (I believe it's there, but I may be mistaken) to say that the Top Run and Bottom Run cards may not be traded, but any other trade is acceptable. You can trade the promise to not attack, alliances against another player, run/saved Specials and Very Specials, any cards in your hands (including Bunnies), Dolla, Carrots, Cabbage, Water, and, yes, even Bunnies in play.

I do not believe that the ratio of Bunnies in player's hands and in the Bunny Circle is disproportionate to the number of Bunny deaths, unless the shuffle is phenomonally bad, which it very well may be. That is why I stated before that the issues you have with the game have only occured at our game table on rare occasion. I also believe there are mechanics in play within the rules set that specifically deal with the issues you have stated.

I personally feel that removing or altering a game mechanic that is, in my opinion, a huge part of what makes this game a good game takes away from the artistic value of the game. We call it censorship if we remove parts of a book we deem unuseful or unwanted. Do you not buy the assertion that an author would be a much happier person if the novel he worked so dilligently on to make sure the artistic vision in his mind was as fully realized as possible remained exactly as he released it?

I personally feel you have dumbed the game down by removing a key element. There is a difference between house rules (i.e no buying property on the first trip around the board or taxes going into Free Parking in Monopoly, ignoring the first Robber roll in Settlers, or two gates opening on the first turn in Arkham Horror), a variant, and completely removing a major mechanic of the game as it was designed.

I take issue with "variants" that "fix" a game that is unbroken. There is an issue (the possibility of not getting many Dolla or Bunnies) and there is a counterbalance (the ability to trade for what you have not acquired through luck). There is no broken game here, so there is no need for fixing.

The game is what it is, you either like it or you don't. Read reviews, find a brick and mortar that has a copy for you to try out, find a friend who has a copy of the game to play. If you don't like it, don't buy it. If you've bought it and you have to add a series of "house rules" to "fix" it, give it to a friend or sell it on eBay. The only way this game would sit at the bottom of my closet is if I played with the rules you have proposed because I feel the game would be boring the way you describe.

Again, this is all...just...my...opinion.

Jason

Thread: Re: Separate Decks

LooseTooth — 2008-11-03T22:26:42+00:00

Okay, let me see if I can make this crystal clear. This variant is NOT for people that like the game the way it is. It is for those of us who find certain elements frustrating, but still enjoy some aspects. I am super happy squishy glad you like the game as is - I don't! And again, many others based on their ratings and comments feel the same. I'm not saying my variant is for everyone, but it works for us. Here's an idea - if you are happy with a game the way it is you should perhaps just IGNORE the variants section all together as anything that messes with what you consider to be perfection will just frustrate you. So, if anyone else would like to tell me how wrong I am to have found a way to better appreciate this game, you can consider your opinion already noted.

Thread: Re: Separate Decks

Vagrant1567 — 2008-11-03T19:58:48+00:00

I agree that if your taking out the cards as you suggest and not leaving the randomness of getting bunnies & forcing people to feed there bunnies then why play.. We have had times where people have had a bad run of draws and are not getting any bunnies but it doesnt happen very often and when it does so what it can happen to anyone...

To me doing what you suggest I may as well leave it in the closet because its not going to be any fun anymore because your taking away a huge part of the game... When you have bad draws with no bunnies for a long period(holding that big weapon to clear the board once you do get that bunny)and then come back from that and win the game thats the stuff that makes the game great...

We don't play this game to win for reasons I should not have to explain but what your suggesting is like playing Texas Hold'em but taking out the 2-9 cards so you never get a bad hand.. Woohoo what fun....

EDIT:P.S. If you play the games as it was made and do trades/deals for Bunnies, and Cabbage/Water there are plenty to go around....

Thread: Re: Separate Decks

LooseTooth — 2008-11-03T15:40:27+00:00

Geez, thanks for being straight with me, Jason! While you may never have had the problems we describe (with rare exception), if you read through the comments for this game, you will find plenty of other people mention these very same problems as deterrents. You will also note a number of evil people making their own house rules in order to enjoy the game.

I’m sorry, but I don’t buy your assertion that designers would be much happier if people who buy their games leave them in the bottom of their closest never to be played again, or simply toss them into the garbage, rather than trying to make their investment pay off by inventing a few house rules that work for them. Of course, I’m humbled by your credentials as a “member of the professional creative community and amateur game designer” and am very happy you mentioned them. But even realizing your opinion trumps that of lesser mortals, I’m afraid we are still going to play our variant while enjoying the other aspects of the designer’s creation. I may even search out variants proposed by other players to see if those enhance our gaming experience even more! When I find them, I’ll pass them on to you so that you can share your vaunted opinion with them as well. Just being straight with you.

Thread: Re: Separate Decks

bwayjace — 2008-11-02T16:26:21+00:00

I'm going to be straight with you, with a few rare exceptions we've never had the problems you describe. Yeah, it sucks to have a bad run of cards and not be able to get a bunny on the table. Focus on running specials and very specials and saving them, or utilize the best rule in the game: with the exception of the top and bottom run cards you can trade anything! Trade with another player for a bunny if you have to.

In my own unsolicited opinion, If you're going to remove an entire mechanic from a game you shouldn't own or play that game. As a member of the professional creative community and an amateur game designer, taking a mechanic out of a game is like buying a painting and then systematically taking a color entirely out of it. Again, just my opinion.

Jason

Thread: Re: Separate Decks

LooseTooth — 2008-11-01T13:43:54+00:00

You still have to place a Bunny on your Run and wait to get it into play. The problem we run into is that, let's say all your bunny's have been killed. Now, you draw. No Bunny. Can't play. Next turn, you draw, still no bunny, still can't play. This can go on for a VERY LONG TIME!!! Our way, bunnies still get wiped out, but you can pad your hand with replacements as desired.

And screwing over your neighbor is still plentiful without the feed the bunny cards which, in our experience, were just kill the bunny cards because rarely could anyone ever accumulate enough water/cabbage to make a difference.

This is a variant suggestion only, not a plea for the author's to rewrite their game. It works for us and maybe others who find the endless cycle of waiting to draw another bunny and then pushing it up their run only to find it quickly slaughtered tedious.

Cheers.

Thread: Re: Separate Decks

mbourgeois — 2008-11-01T05:13:14+00:00

Sorry Kevin, still doesn't make sense to me. If you have separate draws for bunnies and specials/runs then what is the point. With one draw you don't provide a tell that says "I just drew a bunny" instead you are saying 'I might have a weapon or a bunny or some quick reaction card... you just don't know do you?" Why tell them what you've got in hand.

And taking out the market and 'feed the bunny' cards... how else are you supposed to screw over a neighbour? One good 'feed the bunny' and you can decimate a good bunny or kill off one of your own that is an anchor.

End is of course you play by your rules and enjoy. I just think you're missing something from what the author intended. DSDF

Thread: Re: Separate Decks

LooseTooth — 2008-10-31T21:39:09+00:00

You missed the point. It's not about saving bunnies, it's about replacing them sooner so that you are not waiting forever to draw another bunny before you can play again. It speeds up play considerably, but is no less lethal to the bunnies.

Thread: Re: Separate Decks

mbourgeois — 2008-10-31T20:16:51+00:00

LooseTooth wrote:
Separate Decks

I bought Killer Bunnies (along with the Yellow Expansion Deck) a couple of years ago to play with my family. While I like some of the mechanics, I found several problems.

1) Bunnies die much more easily than they can get replaced.

2) The Carrot/Cabbage thing seems worthless as no one can ever accumulate enough resources to do any good.

So, a couple of modifications make the game go MUCH more quickly for us and still retain the flavor.

1) We remove all the cards that say "Feed The Bunny" or have anything to do with water/cabbage. The small water/cabbage cards are also not used.

2) Any card that affects the Kaballa market is removed.

3) We separated out all the “Bunny” cards into their own deck.

Then, when it is a player’s turn to draw, they specify if they want a card from the Bunny deck or the Killer deck to add to their hand. This allows rapid replenishment of Bunnies (without waiting interminably do draw another bunny which just gets whacked quickly), and a bit of strategy on how many Bunnies versus Killer cards a player carries.

This variant seems to work well with kids as it keeps our games from bogging down. Hope it helps you too!

If you are playing with kids who are easily traumatized over seeing their favorite colored bunny get axed then sure... give it a run. Otherwise, in all honesty.. why bother playing this game... it's all about bunnies getting mulched. If you can't feed your bunnies they die... simple. Your rules... they just don't compute... sorry.

Thread: Separate Decks

LooseTooth — 2008-10-31T14:41:52+00:00

Separate Decks

I bought Killer Bunnies (along with the Yellow Expansion Deck) a couple of years ago to play with my family. While I like some of the mechanics, I found several problems.

1) Bunnies die much more easily than they can get replaced.

2) The Carrot/Cabbage thing seems worthless as no one can ever accumulate enough resources to do any good.

So, a couple of modifications make the game go MUCH more quickly for us and still retain the flavor.

1) We remove all the cards that say "Feed The Bunny" or have anything to do with water/cabbage. The small water/cabbage cards are also not used.

2) Any card that affects the Kaballa market is removed.

3) We separated out all the “Bunny” cards into their own deck.

Then, when it is a player’s turn to draw, they specify if they want a card from the Bunny deck or the Killer deck to add to their hand. This allows rapid replenishment of Bunnies (without waiting interminably do draw another bunny which just gets whacked quickly), and a bit of strategy on how many Bunnies versus Killer cards a player carries.

This variant seems to work well with kids as it keeps our games from bogging down. Hope it helps you too!

Thread: Re: Rotating Card

Vagrant1567 — 2008-10-29T20:13:10+00:00

Yes you pass your bottom card so everyone gets a new card...

If you run the card and play it(don't save it)then that is your turn you dont get to do anything else besides replenish your hand(or like any other turn play a saved or very special card)so no you dont get to play your new card..

The only way you would play more then that card is if you played it after saving it... most of the time in our games it gets played from a persons save spot just because it makes it easier to pass a card either you dont want or a card you cant use anymore(ie. your last bunny gets killed and you have a card coming up that needs a bunny)and in that case when you play it maybe you will get lucky and end up with a new bunny WooHoo..

Thread: Re: Rotating Card

Howitzer_120mm — 2008-10-28T04:07:19+00:00

Makes sense. Thanks!

Thread: Re: Rotating Card

Dmart — 2008-10-28T03:30:31+00:00

The player who flipped and immediately played the Top Run Rotate must send what was his Bottom Run card to the counter-clockwise opponent (all shifts are to the right, not left).

Thread: Re: Rotating Card

Howitzer_120mm — 2008-10-28T03:16:48+00:00

Actually I was thinking that if it was the top run card, and it was flipped, and the player decided to play it right then, not saving it. That was my scenario. What then?

Thread: Re: Rotating Card

ackmondual — 2008-10-28T03:02:52+00:00

Howitzer_120mm wrote:
When this special card is played, and all players rotate their top run cards, does the player who played the card get another card as well?The player whose turn it is gets another card to replenish their hand back up to 5 cards (or whatever the hand limit is)

Howitzer_120mm wrote:
Does he play the new card he got?My response would be yes. IIRC, the top run card is always played, unless it was played before the special card you mentioned.

Howitzer_120mm wrote:
What about the player to the right of that player who can't receive a card?The player to the current player's turn should get a card. All of the cards go to the player to his left, resulting in a perfect shift of ownership

Thread: Rotating Card

Howitzer_120mm — 2008-10-27T23:25:53+00:00

When this special card is played, and all players rotate their top run cards, does the player who played the card get another card as well? Does he play the new card he got? What about the player to the right of that player who can't receive a card?

Image

MrFribble — 2008-10-23T15:51:32+00:00

KB Production Sheet

Thread: Re: Reversal of fortune & Trojan bunny

drb1004 — 2008-10-20T15:52:07+00:00

I think I'd agree with you - ROF needs to be played at the time the weapon card is actually played

Thread: Reversal of fortune & Trojan bunny

Vagrant1567 — 2008-10-20T15:35:42+00:00

Another rule agrument came up with these cards one player saying that ROF states that it may redirect any weapon launched at any bummy("Launched" being the key word for the one player)and the other pointing out that it may be used at anytime.. What happened was that the trojan bunny had been down on the players bunny for a couple turns already and the player who owned the bunny got ROF on there draw and wanted to use it on the trojan.. My thoughts were that it was already launched(2 turns ago) and therefore not a valid target for reversal anymore.. but I could see a valid argument for both sides so thought I would leave it up to the people(you!).. Thx for the input......

Thread: Holiday session

FNH1 — 2008-10-19T10:10:51+00:00

My son had been pestering for months for us to get the Violet expansion because "then we'd have all of the carrots". Well with the holiday coming up my wife decided to "shut him up" and secretly
ordered the Violet booster. It duly turned up and I secreted the new cards into the box without telling him.

So there we were second day of the holiday when the suggestion came up to play Killer Bunnies. Unfortunately the living room in the cottage is long and thin meaning that the round leaved table
supplied does not easily fit all four of us around it.

So I moved the low coffee table into the hall, shunted the two comfy chairs and the sofa down one end. Moved the leaved table across the corner of the fireplace and just managed to get four dinning chairs arranged around it.

So to the game. I started dealing the initial cards and my son noticed the new colour in the deck. Big beaming smile. Then he started talking about Orange cards... is there an orange booster?

So to the game. It started out quite normally and as usual everything was fine until I dared to kill my wifes bunny. Then the usual war started, she started hitting me with everything she could
but fortunately I had the holo bunny so was able to laugh most of it off. Then my son who had been watching me chuckle at her feeble attempts thought he'd help her out for a moment by quietly dropping a small tactical nuke on my bunny!

Everyone but my son lost bunnies to fallout. Nukes are dangerous like that.

We all started playing out other bunnies, my wife managed to get one of her bunnies abducted by aliens and I was unable to attack her for a good while. In the MEAN( AND NASTY ) time before I got to attack her she clever killed off another of my bunnies just before I got the "everyone feed your bunnies" card into play, dang!

I managed a smile a few turns later when I got the alien abduction card and played it. Of course I reached across to take her bunny out of the aliens hands when she played one of the new cards and
"protected" my bunnies from the alien abduction, thereby keeping hers safely in their clutches.

There were four players in this game but sadly my attention was focused on the private war between myself and my wife and when it came to the end of the game. I had about 7ish carrots my wife likewise, my son had two and my daughter the remainder. We stated turning over the carrots looking for the magic one and by a huge piece of clever tactical and strategic play ( LUCK ) I came out the winner.

I of course did the obligatory "dad dance" in the corner of the room with the following lyrics sung by myself.

Oh yeah-eh,
Oh yeah-eh,
I'm tha' king of ole bunny town
Oh yeah-eh,
Oh yeah-eh,
I'm tha' king of ole bunny town

Image

MrFribble — 2008-10-18T18:10:33+00:00