Game: Cave Troll

Thread: Cave Troll vs Drakon

Magic Man — 2008-07-24T20:43:12+00:00

If I were to only buy one, which should it be?

Thread: Re: They Brought a Cave Troll

ced1106 — 2008-07-23T08:42:36+00:00

JYoder wrote:
I guess I've always considered Ameritrash games to include lots of die rolling. Apparently that perception is wrong. So then what makes this an Ameritrash game? (I never considered it a eurogame either, but in neither category.)

Yeah, it's on the hybrid side -- there aren't many AT! games which are passive area control. Most AT! game area control involves large guns or something.

AT! games often have cards with craploads of text, particularly ones that give special powers: Cosmic Encounters, Magic the Gathering, Arkham Horror, etc. Note that CE and MtG don't use dice, but are considered AT!

AT! often emphasizes violence and fantasy. Cave Troll is light on the carnage, but you do have them orcs and cave trolls. Though the game is rethemed to fantasy, it sorta works with the fantasy theme.

Cave Troll was designed by Tom Jolly, best known for Wiz-War, another game with cards fulla text. Wiz-War does use a die, but only for an infrequent random direction. Fun game, but definitely in the AT! camp. The sheer chaos of the game would bring your typical Eurogamer to fits and starts. Jolly has, however, also designed Drakon, a game that has Eurogame characteristics, though lacks the strategic depth of most Eurogames (which doesn't mean you won't have fun playing it!)

aka. Washu! ^O^

Thread: Re: They Brought a Cave Troll

JYoder — 2008-07-22T23:17:50+00:00

jeffk wrote:
My understanding of the rules is that all players' hourglass cards are considered together, not separately. Thus, if Player A has one hour glass showing, Player B has two showing and Player C has two the board is scored. They need not all be from the same player.

Ah... that makes much more sense. Otherwise, it seems like all the scoring came fairly close to one another, rather than more spaced out throughout the game as I was wishing. So I stand corrected! Thanks! (I'll edit my above post later tonight to reflect that.)

Thread: Re: They Brought a Cave Troll

jeffk — 2008-07-22T18:31:42+00:00

Great review! This game has also met with mixed success in our group. Some really enjoy it, some are not thrilled by it. I like it, largely due to the fun interactions between the heroes & creatures. It's a nice, light area control game that plays in a reasonably short time.

Just a quick rules note:

This is the most interesting mechanic: Of your deck of cards, some have little hourglasses on the bottom, so that when you play them, you set them aside. Once a player sets aside 5 hourglasses, then the entire board is "scored".

My understanding of the rules is that all players' hourglass cards are considered together, not separately. Thus, if Player A has one hour glass showing, Player B has two showing and Player C has two the board is scored. They need not all be from the same player.

Thread: Re: They Brought a Cave Troll

JYoder — 2008-07-22T12:12:22+00:00

ced1106 wrote:
I usually introduce the game as its original theme -- you're all competing parties on an archaeological site
I didn't know about that. Interesting!

ced1106 wrote:
The game's a light Ameritrash intro to area control games
I guess I've always considered Ameritrash games to include lots of die rolling. Apparently that perception is wrong. So then what makes this an Ameritrash game? (I never considered it a eurogame either, but in neither category.)

Thread: Re: They Brought a Cave Troll

ced1106 — 2008-07-22T08:43:57+00:00

I usually introduce the game as its original theme -- you're all competing parties on an archaeological site, and those pointy swords the adventurers have do *nothing*. Then, I explain that the mechanics are of an area control game, so you don't actually pick up gold. But your orc and cave troll get to kill things, so it all works out!

The game's a light Ameritrash intro to area control games, but, needless to day, doesn't appear on my dungeoncrawl or even adventure game geeklists...!

aka. Washu! ^O^

Thread: They Brought a Cave Troll

JYoder — 2008-07-22T05:08:36+00:00

Overview

Cave Troll is not the game I expected, but then again, I didn't quite know what to expect. That's not necessarily a bad thing, but it took a change of perception on my part.

I figured there'd be some RPG / dungeon-crawl elements, but there's really not. Cosmetically it does since you are controlling fantasy heroes and monsters in a dungeon, each with certain abilities. But they all work together as a team of a similar color. That means both the heroes and monsters you control are not at odds with one another, but work together against the heroes and monsters of different colors that other players control in an overall quest to "hold" onto rooms that have predetermined gold, in anticipation of the few times the board will be "scored".

The Premise

As stated above, you are in control of both heroes and monsters of the same color. All of them come into play via a player's personal deck of cards. (All decks are the same.) There are 9 generic "adventurers" that have no ability, 4 heroes, and 3 monsters. On your turn, you can perform 4 actions. The 4 action options are...

1) Draw a card and play a 1 of your 2 cards (you start with 1)
2) Move a unit from one room to another room
3) Play an artifact card
4) Use a unit's special ability

1) To do this one, you draw a card from your personal deck. You now look at the two cards you hold and must play one. Usually it's bringing in a hero or monster into the dungeon, but there are exceptions.

2) You can move a unit through multiple adjacent rooms, but each room counts as an action. Certain chars are not able to move into certain scenarios, but I won't go into details.

3) One of the cards in your deck is to draw an artifact. These are items that can help you out in various scenarios, though if you choose not to play the artifact card by the end of your turn, it will give you a small bit of gold.

4) Each unit (hero and monster) has a special ability on their cards that you can use throughout the game, sometimes resulting in the discarding of other heroes and/or monsters.

This is the most interesting mechanic: Of your deck of cards, some have little hourglasses on the bottom, so that when you play them, you set them aside. Once all players together have set aside 5 hourglasses, then the entire board is "scored". This will occur a few times throughout the game. What that means is in each room, the player with the majority of heroes in it wins the gold printed on the board in that room. Your gold is marked with a counter around the edge of the board.

It's also important to note that the board is scored once more at the end of the game, which occurs when someone's deck is depleted. So the rub of the game is balancing how you use your actions, because you need to play cards to get your heroes and monsters on the board, but you also need to use actions to get them out and about and impede other players. Too much of either won't keep your game balanced.

A Different Kind of Game

One thing I pride myself on is being able to explain games to others. But this is one of those that even though it's not hard to understand, I find it more different to explain. This stems from players' expectation in thinking this is an RPG / dungeon-crawl, as well as explaining it in a way that blends the game mechanics around the game's overall objective. Because the main strategy aspect is a balance between timing and placement, which I believe is harder to teach, but has to be played and experienced to truly understand and appreciate.

For instance, I find it impractical to go through every hero and monster ability, because if I do, I start to get "deer in the headlights" looks with some people checking out. So after I explain the basics, we start playing and I let the cards explain themselves (a smart feature on the designer's part) while I interject with an example or two. Yet the drawback is until a person knows and understands all the potential cards that exist in their deck, it's hard for them to play strategically... at least until other players start playing different cards, but even then it takes a while to see the big picture.

Of course, any game needs to be played for new players to "get it", but given the unique objective and manner in how this game plays out, it seems more necessary for Cave Troll. And while that can be frustrating for some players, it can be quite rewarding if they end up liking it once all the jigsaw pieces fall into place. Although some people fall into too much "analysis paralysis", which I believe is overdoing it for this game, given its options aren't as extensive as many others I've played.

Final Thoughts

So what's my overall verdict? Though I've played a few times, I'm still not sure. I've played with people who were initially interested and then didn't like it during mid-game and wanted it to end. And I've played with those who checked out early, but later came alive once they understood the scoring and various character abilities. It's different from any other game I've played, and that garners some points in my book. So it's not the first game I'll pull out, but when I have an itch for a shorter game unlike anything else in my collection, I'll reach for this while screaming "Cave Troooooll!"... at least in my head.

I've not been able to play the variant version yet (not enough game sessions with the same people) but I look forward to one day trying it. And that may change my perception even more as it appears far more cutthroat than the standard version... and what's not to like about that?

Thread: Re: Creatures starting movement question

rgmnetid — 2008-07-04T19:47:58+00:00

Yes, if you have actions left to move them. (Evidently, they can also move back into or through a pit, which heroes cannot do. Never noticed that before.)

Thread: Creatures starting movement question

darlok — 2008-07-04T19:14:11+00:00

When u play a creature card, i understand that u move them into one of the three pits, but after that...can they move into adjacent room? It's a tad difficult to discern on the board, especially the middle pit.

Thanks for the help, hoping to play this one tonight.

-
James

Thread: Re: IDOL OF EL’DARR’s question

Tony Kan — 2008-07-03T04:43:10+00:00

Thanks Corey Konieczka and Gláucio Reis.
Now we understood the correct meaning of IOE.

Thread: Re: IDOL OF EL’DARR’s question

GSReis — 2008-07-02T04:21:44+00:00

I got the FFG answer... from the previous poster. :p

Sorry, Corey, I hadn't realized you worked for FFG and that was an official answer. However, I maintain that the misleading sentence could not come from the first edition, as the rule of the Idol of El'darr was that it could be used to claim an empty room. Thus, the character limit did not really apply. Maybe it was from a playtest version of the new edition?

Thread: Re: IDOL OF EL’DARR’s question

GSReis — 2008-07-01T03:48:46+00:00

Mendosa wrote:
You can only move heroes to any entrance. I believe that the room clause is left over from a previous incarnation.
I also think the sentence referring to the room limit is a mistake, but it can't be a "leftover", because the "previous incarnation" had completely different rules for the Idol of El'Darr.

I asked FFG about it. When I get an answer, I'll post it here.

Thread: Re: IDOL OF EL’DARR’s question

Mendosa — 2008-07-01T03:13:59+00:00

You can only move heroes to any entrance. I believe that the room clause is left over from a previous incarnation.

Thread: Re: IDOL OF EL’DARR’s question

ahoodedfigure — 2008-06-28T12:51:18+00:00

Actually, that's a good question. It seems to contradict itself, there, since it tells you to move people to an entrance area, but then has the room limit caveat.

It'd be nice to hear from the designers on what they meant, but in the meantime, what does everyone think? Would the option of rooms instead of just entrance areas be too powerful?

Thread: IDOL OF EL’DARR’s question

Tony Kan — 2008-06-26T09:27:36+00:00

I just bought a copy. It's on the way.
From BGG'S pictures,I found a question.

IDOL OF EL’DARR’s question
The card says: Move all opponent’s heroes in the chosen room to the ENTRANCE AREA of your choice.

BUT also says: You may not move them to a ROOM that would exceed the five-character limit.

ENTRANCE AREA is not ROOM.

SO
CAN I MOVE all opponent’s heroes to a ROOM?

Thread: Re: Breaking in the Cave Troll: A Three-Player Game

ced1106 — 2008-06-01T08:44:06+00:00

Hmm. I wouldn't say it was "tremendously" luck based, though certainly more luck than most serious Eurogames. I'd put the randomness level sorta on the level of Settlers -- and the small card hand at least puts you at less mercy than the dice.

With four actions per turn, players have quite a bit of leeway in reacting to the cards they've drawn. Do you cycle through cards and pile up Adventurers at the staircase? Do you spend half your actions sending them into an adjacent room to at least get some gold?

Also, watch out for overusing monsters! :laugh: They're tempting, but, especially the orc, they consume precious actions. When you realize that *not* putting down a figure on the board is the same as having them removed from the game, you'll want to "swarm" the board with Adventurers, rather than killing them with monsters.

Speaking of which, I'm still waiting for the goblin and siege engine warfare supplements for San Juan.

aka. Washu! ^O^

Thread: Re: Breaking in the Cave Troll: A Three-Player Game

Hendal — 2008-06-01T00:36:46+00:00

He has pictures, he rates it a 7, heck he was drinking beer - it is fine for the Review to me, it makes me want to drink beer and get Cave Troll! Great Review

Thread: Re: Breaking in the Cave Troll: A Three-Player Game

swandive78 — 2008-05-31T20:43:47+00:00

Malvictis wrote:
Obviously, this should be in Sessions.
Thank you, "Should-be" Police!

Thread: Re: Breaking in the Cave Troll: A Three-Player Game

grantham — 2008-05-31T17:42:04+00:00

Yes. Sorry for the mis-click.

Thread: Re: Breaking in the Cave Troll: A Three-Player Game

Malvictis — 2008-05-31T17:26:39+00:00

Obviously, this should be in Sessions.

Thread: Breaking in the Cave Troll: A Three-Player Game

grantham — 2008-05-31T15:45:53+00:00

Ben (discojew) and I got together Friday night for some gaming, since he was busy Saturday and Sunday. I asked him to bring his copy of [GAMEID=25554] in case Christina (salme) was up for some gaming; I thought it would be the type of game she would like. When Ben put down his pile of games, however, Christina was most interested in Cave Troll, so Ben opened that up and started explaining the rules.

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Despite the fact that I took this moment to start playing with the timer settings on the camera (my theory is that if you set it to take 10 pictures, at least one should be usable) and then showing the results to Christina while she was trying to listen to Ben, we both got the gist of what he was trying to explain.

Christina and I jumped out ahead of Ben early by each drawing the "score a room" card and using it on 5-gold rooms. After scoring, my adventurer was killed by Ben's orc, but oh well...he had served his purpose. We didn't really know what we were doing, but on the other hand, it was Cave Troll...it wasn't the most confusing game in the world.

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The game proceeded with fairly low conflict. Mostly it involved moving adventurers to rooms with gold. Other than knocking off Ben's orc, the other hostile technique was dropping the Cave Troll on somebody. I kicked Christina out of a 5-gold room. Ben Cave Trolled my treasure -- that seems like a good (the best?) use of the cave troll, when you can't steal the other guy's treasure.

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At some point, I decided I was far enough ahead to make it worthwhile to end the game. After tallying things up, the score was:
Jon 60, Christina 53, Ben 42.

Christina really enjoyed the game, so we decided to have another go. At this point, my attention had wandered from the camera to the beer, so no more pictures are available. :p

In the next game, I really concentrated on the timing of the scoring rounds. I would often keep a hourglass-laden card in my hand, so when my turn came around, I could determine (with pretty good probability) whether scoring would happen. This strategy paid off early, when I got about 18 gold, while Ben and Christina each ended up with around half that.

I also parked a knight with a treasure next to a staircase, and then hid my dwarf behind it. That worked for a while, until Ben used his wraith to chase away the dwarf. Ben's strategy involved a 3-gold space with his dwarf and a treasure (making it a 10-gold space). I used a wraith and several adventurers to kick him out of the space.

My early lead meant that my opponents (especially Ben) were trying to chip away at my holdings. There was a brief moment of controversy when Ben realized that I may have scored my cave troll one round. After a couple of beers, I thought that was entirely possible, but on the other hand, Ben didn't come up with this problem until a few rounds later, so there was no way to check. (Too bad I no longer had photographic documentation.)

Given my huge early lead, and the fact that it was slipping away, I once again focused on ending the game. Unfortunately, my last play triggered a scoring round, so the end of the game essentially counted double. While Ben and I had a wraith fight, Christina had caught up some, and came within 4 points of my total by the end of the game. Of course, that was exactly what the cave troll would have gained me. So I won again, but with an asterisk.

I have a rule of thumb of rating a game after 2 plays. Although it seems a little soon to rate this game, I gave it a 7. It was fun and a relatively quick play (once we got the rules down). There is a little down-time on other players' turns, but not much. The game seems tremendously luck-based -- drawing adventurers is generally worse than drawing other cards. I was able to mediate the luck somewhat by predicting when the scoring rounds would occur and playing to that, but that only goes so far.

I think it will have a place on our game table for a while as filler -- on the other hand, [GAMEID=45] or [GAMEID=8217] are probably better games. Cave Troll, though, has the advantage of plastic miniatures.

Thread: Re: Card Dimensions?

JYoder — 2008-05-19T22:58:07+00:00

Thanks a ton!

Thread: Re: Card Dimensions?

rgmnetid — 2008-05-19T21:11:26+00:00

1 5/8 by 2 1/2 (inches)

Thread: Card Dimensions?

JYoder — 2008-05-19T20:11:41+00:00

For a project I'm working on, I'd like to know the dimensions of the Cave Troll (2nd version) cards. I no longer have it available to measure myself, but I remember liking their size, so finding that out would really help me. Thanks!

Thread: Re: 1st vs 2nd edition

justrag — 2008-04-17T10:47:00+00:00

It may be kinda relevant for this thread: I've just uploaded a PDF explaining how to adapt 1st edition pieces to play 2nd edition rules. It's here:

http://www.boardgamegeek.com/fileinfo/31818

Comments welcome.

Thread: Re: Who can say NO to a Cave Troll?

lubomirvaic — 2008-04-14T18:33:47+00:00

Thanks for the quick review. I played this once over a year ago and now I need to track down a copy to give it another shot with my game group. I seem to remember enjoying it, but didn't get the strategy at the time, but I think this will work as a quick filler game with my group.

Thread: Re: 1st vs 2nd edition

GSReis — 2008-04-08T18:53:47+00:00

I disagree that the tokens are better than the miniatures, and I have read several complaints about them cluttering the board in the first edition. But I do have a problem with the knight, which is not different enough from the ordinary adventurers to be spotted at a glance.

Having recently played with the alternate characters for the first time, I have to revise my opinion and agree that they don't really add to the game - at least for my tastes. It might be the people I played with, but I thought they made the game much more chaotic and confrontational. I will likely not play with them again, although I like the more thematic moving troll.

Thread: Re: 1st vs 2nd edition

Balthus_Dire — 2008-04-08T16:38:07+00:00

It's a toss-up for me. I'd suggest buying the first, or both--but not just the second. I bought the second edition because of the much more beautiful board with its exciting 3 monster spawn pits, but...

the minis are worse than the tokens, IMO. They are much harder to distinguish from each other, being monochrome instead of full color like the tokens (causing one to not be able to glance at the board and instantly see control, a necessary element of the game), and make the game less accessible to non-fantasy types by making it seem more 'wargamey' than it is.

Most disappointingly, with the switch to cards, one can't simply glance at ones own or another's playspace and see how many tokens they have left until they can end the game by drawing out. This is a big step backwards, causing the game to lose a lot of its tension.

I will be playing with the new board and old tokens. If I could only buy one version, I think I'd sacrifice beauty and go for the gameplay of the 1st ed. But maybe that's just me.

Other issues:

-as for the one card always visible, that's easy enough to implement with tokens or cards

-the alternate powers for heroes and monsters don't add anything at all to the game, IMO. I don't see any reason to play with them. The new powers make for a less interesting game, emphasizing killing guys--which just distracts from the very quick area control heart of the game. You don't have time for that kind of mucking around if you want to win, you've got to use every turn to populate the board (the orc loses the game for people more than any other token).

-the player control over scoring is ok, but not so good that I'd buy the 2nd ed over the 1st. Having one token always visible would give one more than enough control over scoring(in fact, more control than in the 2nd ed. method).

Thread: Re: 1st vs 2nd edition

UnluckyNumber — 2008-03-17T14:20:07+00:00

When I eventually get this game, it'll be the 2nd edition for me as well. Partly because the 2nd edition is the only version of it I've ever played, but primarily because of all the nice minis. I wouldn't even give the 1st edition a second glance. Yes, I know, I'm shallow that way. :)

Thread: Re: Ending game/scoring

Ineffable — 2008-03-01T21:30:57+00:00

Yes, A R Teschner. We counted the 3 gold bonus for her ending the game. Thanks for your input.

Thread: Re: Ending game/scoring

GSReis — 2008-02-23T17:55:31+00:00

Ineffable wrote:
The rules state that the game ends immediately when drawing the last card [and resolving its effects]
ahoodedfigure wrote:
Correct me if I'm reading it wrong, but it seems like the player with no card left ends the game by performing an action after the player's hand is exhausted.
Not exactly. The card played does not have to be the card just drawn, but the card in the player's hand, instead. And only the draw deck is exhausted, not the player's hand. He always has one card left in his hand.

That said, the rules do state that he plays the card and resolve it. There is nothing that excepts the hourglass icons, but I agree that may be too powerful if a player has a good advantage in that scoring round. It feels lame, but it's part of the game. Most often than not, though, the last card simply has no practical effect and is used to end the game, as most cards just allow the player to place a hero on an entrance or a monster in a pit.

Thread: Re: Ending game/scoring

ahoodedfigure — 2008-02-23T12:59:28+00:00

I didn't realize that the hourglass/card distribution could allow for that. Good question.

Correct me if I'm reading it wrong, but it seems like the player with no card left ends the game by performing an action after the player's hand is exhausted.

So, it looks like there's an action in between this hourglass scoring and end-game scoring, making it look like you really do score twice in quick succession. If they happened one right after the other, you could maybe argue that they didn't mean for this to happen, but I see no need to except this situation should it work out that way.

Was the 1 gold difference even with the 3 gold bonus you get for being the player to end the game?

Thread: Ending game/scoring

Ineffable — 2008-02-22T18:19:17+00:00

The rules state that the game ends immediately when drawing the last card [and resolving its effects] then score all rooms. It also states that when 5 or more "hourglass" markers are on the seperate discard pile, immediately score all rooms.

So, my girlfriend's last card she drew happen to be an "hourglass" card, she played it which caused there to be 5 "hourglass" cards in that sperate pile, so my question is:

Does one score TWICE (The forced "hourglass" cause & the last game card being drawn and used)? If not, then I would have won. If so, then I would have lost by 1 gold coin! Damn dwarves!

Thank you,
Zar Gon

Thread: Re: 1st vs 2nd edition

GaryP — 2008-01-28T14:47:45+00:00

ced1106 wrote:
There's also an alternate character set.
...which you can glean from the new rules.

http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/cavetroll_support.html

To me, the one real advantage of the new version is the timing of the scoring rounds. The build-up to scoring is visible to all, allowing a bit of planning. No more surprise scoring during the first turn of the game. However, I am strongly considering marking up my first-edition tokens to add icons for the scoring "clock".

Thread: Re: 1st vs 2nd edition

ced1106 — 2008-01-27T12:45:20+00:00

There's also an alternate character set. See the design notes:
http://www.fantasyflightgames.com/cavetroll_designnotes1.html

OTOH, you have to ask yourself what other games you can get for $30 and how often you'll play Cave Troll. FFG has some very good $20 Eurogames, and I'd go with a $20 FFG game and a $5 1st edition Cave Troll, rather than a $30 2nd edition.

aka. Washu! ^O^

Thread: Re: 1st vs 2nd edition

eeroko — 2008-01-27T12:02:17+00:00

The 1st edition works just fine. And I think the tokens are much more practical than useless miniatures. And as 1st edition uses tokens there is no use for cards. Tokens can be piled and they are not that difficult to move around the board.

I see miniatures in the 2nd edition as cream on the cake. It looks good and tastes good but doesn't improve the game.

Buying the second edition is waste of money unless you desperedly want to play with minies.

Image

cheetor — 2008-01-14T12:30:56+00:00

Green about to win again.

Image

Rikolus — 2008-01-02T23:19:17+00:00

Even a Quickie Paint Job helps make the game look better and add a bit more immersion into the Fantasy spirit.

Image

Rikolus — 2008-01-02T23:17:47+00:00

It's the RED team heading out

Thread: Re: Cave Troll or Drakon or else for dungeon fun?

diamondspider — 2007-12-27T20:13:22+00:00

I've played both a lot, and prefer Drakon.

Thread: Re: Cave Troll or Drakon or else for dungeon fun?

Beholm — 2007-12-27T20:05:40+00:00

Not to mention a ba-zillion dollars! hehe Warhammer Quest is a great game! But since it is out of print the cost just keeps going higher! Another idea for you would be Mageknight: Dungeons. It is OOP also, but boosters and starters can be had on the internet for little. It IS collectable, but don't let that stop you. You could play with as few as 10 boosters (or 8 boosters and 1 starter) and I have seen Pyramid boosters going for $1.00 each.

Image

xedric — 2007-12-23T22:03:55+00:00

Cave Troll Up Close

Thread: Re: 1st vs 2nd edition

Zimeon — 2007-12-17T13:46:55+00:00

Damn you. Now I have to get 2 ed…

Thread: Re: 1st vs 2nd edition

GSReis — 2007-12-16T20:08:34+00:00

Unless you can get the other for 1 or 2 bucks, take the second edition. In fact, I would buy the second edition even if I had the first. Adding to what Marco said, there are a few changes that make it a better game:
- You always have one card in your hand, and when you choose to draw another, you may play either. In the first edition, you just randomly turned up tokens. That change would be easy to implement, though.
- The board is not only larger, it has been redesigned and now has three pits where the monsters may appear, making it easier (and more worthwhile) to move them to rooms far from the center.
- The timing of scoring is under control of the players. Some cards have scoring icons, and when a certain number of them is played, score occurs. There still is a scoring card, but it scores only one room.
- All heroes and monsters have alternate versions with different powers. You have to use all of them together, but they still add some nice variety to the game.

Thread: Re: 1st vs 2nd edition

lippo — 2007-12-16T17:06:47+00:00

I owned the 1st edition and eventually trade it away in order to get the 2nd.

In my opinion the latter is the best. Here are my points:

The board is bigger. It can get crammed in some areas but alway better that the first edition.

It has miniatures. They are rather small and you have to be careful sometimes not to get confused on which is which. What's more it's easier to pick them up when you have to move them around the board.

The cards you use instead of the tokens have some information which is useful when you have to remember special abilities of heroes and monsters. Of course this info is in a certain language, so it depends on the edition you get. My edition is in Italian for example. The first edition had a summary at the end of the multi-lingual rulebook.

The rules themselves have been a little bit tweaked and you have a slightly better control on when the board is going yto be evaluated.

Anyway, enjoy whichever version you should decide to buy. Although not a masterpiece of boardgaming, it's a decent and fast control area game

Marco

Thread: 1st vs 2nd edition

Faerun — 2007-12-16T14:46:45+00:00

Hey there,

I'm really interested in Cavetroll. I can get the 1st edition very cheap, but saw there is also a 2nd edition.

Can someone clarify me on what the differences are? Except that you have no mini's in 1st edition?

What would you do, but 1st cheap or 2nd for normal price?

Thanks in advance!

Cheers,
Nick

Thread: Re: Check your minis carefully

iPAUL — 2007-12-05T01:15:43+00:00

thanks for the post!

I had 2 green Knights but no green Thief. FFG responded quickly to my e-mail and is sending out the missing mini.

FFG Service = :star::star::star::star::star:

Thread: Re: Cave Troll - A review

gmarius — 2007-11-23T06:59:04+00:00

I found the game to be very fun but it seems that the monsters are rarely moved as people tend to just focus on their own heroes.

Thread: Re: Cave Troll - A review

faidutti — 2007-11-22T15:37:54+00:00

Probably my favourite majority game, and a greatly underrated one. The new edition is gorgeous.

Thread: Re: Cave Troll - A review

Rancemeister — 2007-11-22T09:28:47+00:00

Neumannium wrote:
Sounds like a dungeon romp like Descent, doesn't it? Well, it's not. In fact, the theme in this game is completely tacked-on. This game could have been as abstract as a game has ever been, but the fantasy theme does probably make it a bit more enticing.

Yeah, I read somewhere that this game started life as an idea for an archaeology game.....

Thread: Cave Troll - A review

Neumannium — 2007-11-21T20:12:29+00:00

Cave Troll
Designer: Tom Jolly
Publisher: Fantasy Flight Games
Online Play: not available

Cave Troll is a game for 2-4 players that each control a group of adventurers (and some monsters) in the lair of the Cave Troll.

Sounds like a dungeon romp like Descent, doesn't it? Well, it's not. In fact, the theme in this game is completely tacked-on. This game could have been as abstract as a game has ever been, but the fantasy theme does probably make it a bit more enticing.

That said, it may also disappoint some who go in thinking they'll be doing some light role playing.

Onward!

Components:

The box for this game is fairly small. About 1/4 the size of a standard square box from FFG. That said, they really cram this box with goodies.

There are 4 sets of plastic miniatures, one for each player. Each player has 17 figures that will eventually be played on the game board as play progresses. The figures are well done, but small. Don't expect Descent or World of Warcraft quality here, but for a game of this magnitude pieces that good probably aren't warranted. These pieces look good and do their job, and for lovers of plastic goodness, this is way better than laying down cardboard chits or wooden cubes!

There are 4 decks of cards in the game, one for each player. Each deck is identical except for the coloring which matches the color of each player's plastic minis. The cards are on good card stock and are very attractive. The artwork is full color and impressive. Also, the rules for each card are printed very clearly on the card keeping rules checking to a minimum...I really like that. On the bottoms of some of the cards is an hourglass-like symbol which are called 'scoring symbols'. When enough of these cards are played, the board is scored.

Also included are 7 cards of each color with alternate characters on them. This is for an 'advanced' version of the game. I have not played this advanced version yet, but it adds some complexity and more head-to-head interaction between the players. I hope to try this variant out soon. These 7 cards replace cards from the original 17 that each player has.

There are 6 separate 'artifact' cards. These allow each player to have some special abilities such as moving an opponents pieces, or placing cards back in your hand.

The game board. This board is small and compact and quite handsome. It depicts a dungeon filled with adjoining rooms. There are also staircases (which are entrance points for a player's heroes) and pits (which are entrance points for a player's monsters). Each room is clearly marked with a number of gold pieces. It is this number gained when a room is scored. There is also a scoring track around the outside of the board.

Also included are plastic markers for keeping track of the score for each player on the scoring track.

Overall, the components are very nice. They far exceed what was necessary, and definitely knock the game up a notch.

Gameplay:

At the beginning of the game, each player takes their plastic minis and their deck of cards and placing their scoring marker at 0 on the scoring track. They then draw the top card from their deck.

Each player then has 4 actions per round. The actions they may take consist of:

1. Draw a card and play a card.
2. Move one of your hero or monster figures
3. Play an artifact card
4. Use a hero or monster ability that takes an action.

The four actions can be any combination of the above choices. Therefore, a player could move a piece 4 times if they wish. Or, move 2 pieces each 1 space, use an artifact, then draw and play a card. While it sounds a bit daunting at first ("I have how many options to do what on my turn?") it really comes into focus quickly usually during the first or second turn of the game.

Let's look at each action:

Draw/Play a Card: You draw the top card from your deck and place it into your hand. You then must play one of the two cards you have. Cards can be heroes, monsters, or events. Hero cards allow you to place the respective hero figure onto one of the stairway or 'entrance' spaces on the board. Monster cards allow you to place the respective monster onto one of the 'pit' or 'monster entrance' spaces on the board (the Cave Troll doesn't follow this rule and can be placed in any room except a pit or entrance). Event cards allow you to do things like draw an artifact or score a room.

Move a hero or monster: Every movement action allows you to move a hero or monster to an adjacent room. Of course, certain restrictions apply such as you can't move into a room with 5 figures already in it, can't move into a room that contains an opponent's knight, etc.

Play an artifact card: Fairly self-explanatory.

Use a hero or monster ability: All the heroes and monster cards list a special ability that that character has (except the meek 'adventurers' who are your generic cannon fodder). These abilities are nicely printed on the card. Some abilities allow knights to kill orcs, wraiths to push your opponents, etc.

Each player performs these actions trying to gain a majority of their figures in rooms so that when a room is scored, they get the gold (points) for it.

The game ends when a player finishes his move and has no cards left in his draw deck.

Scoring occurs when 5 cards with the 'scoring icon' on them (the little hourglass thingee) are played (they are kept in a separate stack on the table, when a scoring card is played, and at the end of the game.

Scoring consists of simply seeing which player has the most heroes in a room (not monsters) and scoring them according to the gold icons in the room. Really. That's it. If there is a tie, nobody gets the gold. There are ways to get more gold than what is printed on the board, such as placing your treasure chest and having a dwarf hero (which doubles gold production in a room). All in all, the scoring is easy and intuitive.

Conclusion:

When I saw this game, I was excited. I love dungeon crawls and role playing type games in general. When I started reading the rules and going over it with my group, I began to despair. What had I done?

What had I done? I had actually purchased a really fun area-control game! I had never played a game like this before and if it weren't for the theme, probably wouldn't have played this one either.

The game has a randomness to it, but it feels ok because you only have so many choices to begin with and none of the cards are game breakers. Just because someone gets their Cave Troll out way before you shouldn't prevent you from winning, for example.

The game has some strategy but is light enough that non-gamers I've pulled it out for have enjoyed it as well.

A great filler game that is deeper than you may think when you first sit down to play!

Overall: 7/10

Dave

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Burgelkutt — 2007-11-18T14:52:43+00:00

This is why Fantasy Flight is awesome, and one of my favorite companies. Got a problem? Missing some pieces? No biggie, they'll fix it for you, free of charge.

Thread: Re: Alternate Theme

Samael — 2007-11-06T09:53:16+00:00

Actually, the mechanics of the game would work just as well with any theme. I myself was thinking of a game showing gangs trying to dominate the neighbourhood - in a sort of ridiculous commedy style. You'd probably have to be Polish to get the joke though.

Thread: Re: Caaaaaaave TroooOOOOoooOllLllLl~

windmill88 — 2007-10-17T13:30:59+00:00

Haven't even read your review yet. Thumbs up just for the review title. :)

Thread: Caaaaaaave TroooOOOOoooOllLllLl~

Herbalfresh — 2007-10-17T12:19:01+00:00

Saw this game lying around in a corner freshly wrapped in plastic at school, everytime i saw it, i could imagine the group of adventurers' blood curdling scream at the sight of the beastly behemoth, the Caaaaaaaaaavvvve TrooOooOooOllll~

After i grabbed the box, as always, i'll take a good look at the box and the blurb at the back.

Game Box
First impressions! I looked at it and the first thing that ran thru my mind was WOAH! Adventure game, heroes, labyrinth, cave troll and no dice! Sweeeeeet.
The cover art was very nice, fitting the theme, and we gotta love awesome cave trolls. I appreciate good art very much, and i sure appreciate this piece as well.

Components
I rapidly tore thru the plastic wrapper and when i saw the components i was wheeling away in delight. Miniatures, miniatures and more miniatures. For those of you who love painting miniatures, like i do, don't you just feel excited at what possibilities thos miniatures hold?
Accompanying it were 4 scoring tokens of a different colour, which could stack atop each other. Nice.
The game is also accompanied by a deck of cards, which comes in 4 colours as well, needless to say, the colour matches that of the tokens, and each belong to a player.

Gameplay, Flow of the game
I played a four player game with a couple of friends, and it was a synch to learn and play. The rules were magnificent. It was very digestible, and very clear. I did not have to flip back and forth at all to constantly check on the rules.
Basically, the objective of the game is to gain gold(points) by securing the relevant rooms in the cave troll's labyrinth. Now scoring only happens 5 times of less thruout the game, and it happens on different occasions each time. So there's an element of unpredictability in the game. The board is made up of a labyrinth divided into many rooms, each room has a number of coins ranging from 1-5, which are equal to the points you gain if you control the room when a scoring happens. there is also 4 entrances for heroes to enter, as well as 3 pits for monsters to spawn. A scoring track surrounds the labyrinth on the edges of the board.

Theres almost zero set up time, players pick a color and receive their respective token, miniatures and deck of cards. Now this a card driven game, but there is equal emphasis on board play as well. Every player first draws a card and puts it into their hands.
Each player has the same amount of miniatures, consisting of monsters and heroes.And the best thing is, every player gets their own cave troll! Monsters are used against your opponent's heroes, while your heroes are to control rooms. Most of these characters have a special ability unique to them. Character abilities include doubling the point value of a room, discarding heroes from a room, as well as pushing other heroes away from a room. These variety of unique abilities make the game an exciting one, where a combination of good moves, might net you many points.

Players then take turns to do 4 actions in a regular turns. These 4 actions may be either Moving a hero/monster, Drawing and compulsary playing of a card, Using an artifact, or activating a hero/monsters special ability. There is no restriction to the number of times you can repeat a action.
A player has to start by drawing and playing hero cards, and the respective hero enters any entrance of the labyrinth. They then continue on their quest to secure control of the most valuable of rooms.

How do you gain control of a room? Simple. You just need to have more hero figures in the room then your opponents. Theres a five figure limit for every room, so there are varying strategies regarding the control of rooms. Certain hero's like the barbarian counts as 2 figures when gaining control of a room.

Now that you have a room, how do you score it?
Every players deck has cards which have a scoring symbol at the bottom. Whenever such a card is played, it is moved to the scoring pile rather den discarded as per normal. Now when a scoring pile has 5 or more scoring symbols, a scoring happens! Then everyone take turns to count their points, and move their tokens to the respective space on the scoring track.

The game ends, when a player draws the final card in his pile. And then a final scoring takes place. The winner is then decided, and gains bragging and mocking rights until he gets owned in the next game, whether cave troll or not.

Caaaaave Trolllll
Now you guys must be wondering, whats Cave Troll without a mention of a cave troll? Now the cave troll in the game is a mean bad ass, and he deserves his section all on his own. What happens is that when a player plays his/her cave troll card, the cave troll immediately invades any room of his choosing, and everyone in the room, whether monster or hero is chased out of it, and the room is permanently closed. All you can hear are the howls of pain and anguish of the tormented cave troll.

Conclusion
A definitely fun and ever changing game, engaging for all players, as they are all stuck in the claustrophobic labyrinth and controls of rooms regularly takes place. As confrontations are almost unavoidable, it serves as a good warm up game to a heavier confrontational game, as the grudges from cave troll will inevitably carry over.
It is also exceedingly easy to learn and plays fast enough. And you gotta love it when some one screams and plays Caaaaaaave Trollll! sending everyone in the room scrambling for cover.
I enjoy this game immensely, as the benefits are also felt into the next game and who doesn't like seeing their well crafted plans come into fruition a few turns into the future? i definitely do! A must try for all board gamers out there. All you gotta do is play it once.

Rating
:star::star::star::star::star::star::star::star:

and if you like scrabble enough,
:C::A::V::E::blank::T::R::O::L::L:
14 points! Woo!

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kiko_chirol — 2007-10-05T16:32:56+00:00

someone is in deep trouble

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kiko_chirol — 2007-10-05T16:31:58+00:00

knights

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kiko_chirol — 2007-10-05T16:30:42+00:00

dwarves

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kiko_chirol — 2007-10-05T16:18:35+00:00

barbarians

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kiko_chirol — 2007-10-05T16:16:29+00:00

adventurers