Game: G.E.V.

Thread: Re: Ogre Minis PDF to be released this month

selenite — 2008-10-15T22:10:58+00:00

And now it's out.
http://e23.sjgames.com/item.html?id=SJG30-7203

Thread: Re: Ogre & GEV to return

woodwardiocom — 2008-10-15T21:24:41+00:00

dsumner wrote:
SJG has announced the release of 6th edition Ogre

Hmm, let us hope this bumps up the sales of GURPS Ogre . . .

-JW

Thread: Re: The problem with OGRE

Ori Ironarm — 2008-06-26T05:04:04+00:00

El Hidalgo wrote:
Richard

As a SJ games fan I know that his products can be overpriced. Thus I believe that if he waits out the fan base that he will be able to release Ogre/GEV at an overpriced rate.

One would wish it were not so. Your are spot on about his production and marketing going toward Munchkin and GURPS. While I enjoy the GURPS line I am also clear headed enough to know it does not have the large fan base needed to sustain it. While Munchkin does have a following it also has an inherent design flaw that will take it to the point of diminishing returns. Munchkin is a sugar rush game. One gets a good laugh out of it the first couple of times out...but in order to keep the laughs coming...we need to get expansions.

I have a long, love-hate relationship with Steve Jackson's products. I believe my first ones were Wizard and Melee, on which my old gaming group and I based a lot of great dungeon crawls spanning several home-made fantasy worlds. It was great to have an alternative to the Byzantine complexity of the AD&D line (and the character class/level system, which I never liked). We expanded Wizard/Melee ourselves, before there were any official expansions. I remember lovingly cutting out the figure flats (including the dragon!) and putting them in a small envelope that I slipped inside the booklet along with the map. . . . Then came tons and tons of lead minis (occasionally supplemented by Cardboard Heroes), and Advanced Wizard and Advanced Melee, and the original GURPS, and Man to Man somewhere along the way.

As you can probably tell, I am so old that I remember when Steve's games were not overpriced. In fact, I remember the good old days when Metagaming in fact stood for inventive games at a very reasonable price. I still have every Metagame I ever purchased, and I think I purchased most of them at one time or another.

Apparently, those days were too good to last. Pretty soon, GURPS was coming out in new, (more expensive) boxed sets, and then hardbacks, and the supplemental booklets (which, of course, you didn't strictly need) proliferated--GURPS Space, GURPS Magic, etc., etc. I know, I know, Steve has to eat, too--but it's just ironic when you remember that GURPS stands for "Generic Universal Roleplaying System," and that its original selling point was that playing one system for all genres would save gamers money. . .

So far, I've resisted picking up any of the latest GURPS hardbacks. As others here have noted, they're expensive! I'm sure they're quality RPGs, but I already have several editions of GURPS that I have no one to play with, and I can't see rewarding SJ's departure from his original "generic, universal" idea--which I think was a great one! (At the moment, Savage Worlds! is my RPG of choice when I want to buy a supplement I will probably never get to play.)

The Munchkin line is goofy fun, but not enough goofy fun for the price. "Sugar rush" is a pretty good way to describe it. I pick one up fairly often at my local game store, read the blurbs, think about it for a moment . . . and then look at the price tag and say, "No way!" Back on the shelf it goes. I did buy the base set for my best friend as a birthday present a few years back. We played it a few times one evening. It was OK, but we haven't played it since.

I still have all my original OGRE/GEV stuff from days of yore, plus some of the expansions that I bought on eBay a few years back in a fit of nostalgia. The lead minis briefly intrigued me, but I could never see the expense (and weight) of a whole army, let alone the time and effort of painting all those little vehicles. (Sadly, I'm grown up and have a career now, and have to occasionally do something that is not game-related, such as work.) I don't really need an updated version, but a cool, mounted map --or a modular map set--and two or more plastic armies would probably induce me to part with a reasonable-sized chunk of change. I loved OGRE and GEV back in the day! Of course, one reason I loved them was that you could carry a whole game in your hip pocket, which you can't do with hordes of plastic minis. I guess you can't have everything. . . .

Thread: Re: Ogre & GEV to return

dogmatix — 2008-03-09T06:13:30+00:00

This is excellent news.

Thread: Re: Ogre & GEV to return

GROGnads — 2008-03-08T09:46:22+00:00

Be sure to have HIM give a long intensive "look-see" over the latest bunch of additions for it ALL! I've gotten even MORE than those have!

Thread: Ogre & GEV to return

dsumner — 2008-03-08T08:39:17+00:00

SJG has announced the release of 6th edition Ogre here - http://forums.sjgames.com/showthread.php?t=37305

Thread: Re: Ogre Minis PDF to be released this month

dude163 — 2008-02-03T15:06:19+00:00

OGRE/G.E.V forum

http://forums.sjgames.com/forumdisplay.php?f=24

Thread: Re: Ogre Minis PDF to be released this month

dsumner — 2008-02-03T14:43:36+00:00

I figured that this would get some of you guys fired up. Also, if you haven't stopped by the SJG message boards, please take a minute and do so, and don't forget to leave Mr. Jackson a note about what you'd like to see.

Thread: Re: Ogre Minis PDF to be released this month

dude163 — 2008-02-03T12:42:04+00:00

the first hex and counter game that I played that didnt do my head in was:

G.E.V

Thread: Re: Ogre Minis PDF to be released this month

duckweed — 2008-02-03T07:19:42+00:00

This is great news. I've been on the Ogre mailing list for as long as I've been out of diapers, it seems... I've even contributed numerous times in the past with scenarios and the like, but it seemed like support was dwindling. Based on what I've read at BGG, I think there are still a lot of Ogre/GEV players out there. It would be great to see some new support and interest in this classic game.

Thread: Re: Ogre Minis PDF to be released this month

Palpatine — 2008-02-03T07:16:29+00:00

I would...and I'd love to have the Ogre Minis rule book as a PDF. I meant to get that book ages ago, and now it's OOP.

Thread: Ogre Minis PDF to be released this month

dsumner — 2008-02-03T06:32:08+00:00

I posted this in Ogre section and I'll post here also. Steve Jackson has announced he'll be releasing the Ogre Minis rulebook as PDF sometime in Feb. It'll also contain errata, and updated FAQ sheet, some new stuff and a few free goodies. He's also looking for feedback, and has posted a poll over on the Ogre/GEV section of the SJG message boards. And, he stated that he plans to update the Ogre/GEV page in the near future.

If you have an interest in seeing the line updated, or at least have them reprint the long out of print rules, please take a minute to drop by and let him know it.

Thread: Train Scenario Strategy

TheChin! — 2008-01-08T15:45:15+00:00

Thread: GEV Units Reviewed

TheChin! — 2008-01-08T15:30:50+00:00

Submission Notes: I did not write this. David Morse did, I am submitting it with permission implied at the bottom of article. It has been my experience that very good game material is out there on the internet, but it has a tendency to disappear over the years as individuals lose interest or don't have the resources to keep their websites going. With that in mind, I'm going to to try and repost cool stuff that I find out there here on BGG (presumably a longer term and more stable reference), as long as I have the permission of the contents creator. The original document can still be found at http://tank.osaurus.us/gev.html as of the date of this posting.

GEV Units Reviewed

This is my take on the relative merits of the units in GEV and Shockwave. Every scenario has its own demands, and players will tend to favor the units that excel in the scenarios they play most often. I'll be reviewing based on 4 scenarios: Breakthrough, The Train, Ceasefire Collapse (all from GEV), and Scramble (read it here:http://tank.osaurus.us/scramble.html).

GEV
The game's namesake unit is dynamite. Though it's slightly flimsy for a slugfest, the GEV's mobility ensures that it always fights on favorable terms. The GEV is at its best when it has a large choice of targets that can't fight back. A few GEVs can tie down a slower defending force 2 to 3 times its size. If he doesn't have enough to cover everywhere, feint one way; when your opponent reacts, use the superior mobility to relocate to another area of the map faster than they can say "outmaneuver".

Defensively, GEVs can also wage a beautiful guerrilla war against an advancing column of light and heavy tanks. Use them to "round off" the corners of the enemy formation. With tank's 5 reaction radius, only the unit you're firing on has a chance to retaliate, and he's probably disabled.

The unsuccessful GEV commander often can blame his strategy of "If I can just weather one turn of attack, then I'll get them on the next turn". The successful GEV commander should always be thinking "where would I like to be". Due to the poor attack and defense strength, figuring out how to evade counter-attack is more important than getting in range of the juiciest target. Think a turn ahead.

Commanding GEVs is like chess. The Ogre may be the queen of the battlefield, but the GEV wolf pack is the knight, able to surprise, out flank, and outmaneuver an unwary opponent.

Heavy Tank
I'm ready to drop the hammer, and unleash some indiscriminate justice!
--Arclite Siege Tank commander, Starcraft.

Ah, the heavy tank, so buff and yet so fragile. If you're wading into an enemy formation with approximately equal force, then it seems the Heavy is as good a way to go as any.

The problem with the heavy is that to obtain firing position, the tank often has to park itself next to something very nasty. Often that nasty thing is a couple of infantry, that weren't going to get in range of any other units this turn. Although the Heavy has more armor than most, it still doesn't come out a good buy if, after its first shot, it gets counter-attacked by an otherwise unemployed 3/1 infantry group.

One tanker's reply to these criticisms: If you're annihilating everything in your path, then they won't have a very dangerous counter-attack, will they now?

Also another tactic that keeps the Heavies alive: don't commit them! If you can't get good firing position, or you don't have a reasonable chance of survival, then by all means back off. Beyond range 6, an enemy commander has to respect the avenging firepower of a heavy. At range 2 it is just another target.

In Ceasefire Collapse they are a decent buy. If you have a potential attack through densely forested area, like in Scramble, they are nice. Otherwise they're not a very good core choice.

Missile Tank
What the missile tank lacks in speed, it makes up for in range. Or at least that seems to be what the game designers want us to think. In fact, the Missile tank's lack of speed AND lack of armor dooms it to bit parts in static defenses. Or you can just dispense with the temptation and feed the counters to your gerbils.

My theory on why the MSL TANK has persisted so long, when so obviously inferior to the other units, is that in the original Ogre, it's actually pretty good. You see, the giant tank was already coming right at you, so the lack of speed was not a problem. In the meantime, its plentiful secondaries and missiles were D3 targets, which the MSL had good karma shooting. In addition, its range 4 kept it from getting rammed too easily.

If you're fighting anything besides Ogres, infantry, or howitzers, the range 4 doesn't really help. Consider GEVs instead. They're about 1000% as flexible with 67% of the punch, and 200% the survivability. Being able to run away to range 5 is sooo much better than parking at range 4.

Some thought experiments that might improve the viability.

The Heavy Missile Tank, the classic variant that carries 2 Ogre missiles.
The Fast Missile Tank, M3, D2, 3/3. This is about half way between a heavy and a missile, except its more vulnerable than either of them. Still, being able to react to enemy movement is probably worth it. And it's a little cheaper (1VP) than the regular MSL TANK. Couldn't that extra victory point buy it D3?
How about a Multi Missile Tank, D2, M2, 2/3 attack, or a one shot 6/5 Ogre missile. Once this is fired, increase the speed to M3. Cost by the formula: 6.11 before the "forward observers" penalty. Use Missile Crawler counters to remember whether the missile has been fired.
Maybe the Forward Observer Rules can save the basic missile tank.
Do the unthinkable: modify the basic missile tank in some way. Give it attack four, or D3, or (gulp) range five! There is a precedent in changing fundamental stats with the superheavy tank, but somehow the MSL is more holy, more canonical, than the super.
Given the current counter set, I think I favor the forward observer rules, as the most backward compatible change. At least for the missile tank -- I'm not sure I'm ready to deal with range 12 howitzers I'm thinking of this as a "G.E.V. only" rule, not for inclusion in the classic Ogre rules. Sorta the status currently enjoyed by overrun and spillover.

Howitzer
The howitzer is most unique armor unit in the original OGRE. If you can get the enemy to fight inside the howitzer's range, then you extract a unit per turn "howitzer tax" on him. Thus theoretically the howitzer can pay for itself in two turns.

The theory and practice are often very different. That 8 hex range has a powerful effect on psychology. Often they'll decide to try to sack the howie with insufficient forces, or detour around it and get themselves into all sorts of trouble. It's fun to watch.

Psychology cuts both ways though. I've managed to throw away swarms of armor units in a desperate defense of a howitzer. True it lived for another turn, but that didn't compensate for the 4 armor lost in the process.

Since the howitzer doesn't move, you have to be very careful in choosing defensive terrain to place it in. For example, in The Train, 1704 might look like a good place, because of the potential to shell forces advancing along the road at 1712. However, in my experience this position is GEV-bait for an assault across the lake. 1703 is much preferable. It has a nice defensive swamp + stream combo, to keep out those pesky GEV raiders. Seems like a small difference, but it's an entire extra turn of GEV movement to get there. And those swamps absolutely crawl with Paneuropean infantry.

Sometimes an overly defended howitzer is counter-productive. It's not paying for itself unless it is under attack, so try to lure forces in with what looks like an easy sack, then bog them down in the details. Screens of infantry at the enemy's firing range are the traditional way of doing this, but other tricks can be devised. If you can talk your opponent into letting you buy mines, well there's never a better place than in the approaches to your "defenseless" howitzer.

Light Tank
First introduced in GEV, the light tank promises "2-for-1" savings in cost. But you have to look at what's under the hood. It has all the weaknesses of the heavy, with none of the defense strength. Sure it's plentiful, but sometimes that can result in you having to stack it with other light tanks, at which point it's not a savings, due to spillover effects and poor movement mode.

Still, it has its uses. For example in Breakthrough, Light Tanks can oppose the stream crossing around 0811. With the savings in cost, the toll for crossing the stream rapidly becomes prohibitive for the GEVs. Of course, with the mobility differential, the defender has to have a plan for when the GEVs cut and run to the river, then zip into the lake. A plan that doesn't involve light tanks.

Probably the best thing about the Light Tank is it's cheap to loose. Try to convince your opponent it is worth committing his heavies to kill the lights in the vanguard of your formation. Then dismantle him with the balance of your army.

Don't get me wrong, I don't actually like the Light. Still, I always get lured in by the low sticker price, and choose a few. They never make it home though, and never seem to pay for themselves.

Added 11-11-2001
Okay, I have somewhat changed my mind on the Light. First, its got the best firepower per victory point of any unit, surpassing even the Heavy because of its ability to split fire. Second, in some cases where stacking isn't going to be an issue, e.g. already outnumbered 2 to 1, the light tank is the only unit that gives you the survivability to make it through to the second turn. In Raid I take a bunch.

Mobile Howitzer
In some situations a MHWZ is better than a vanilla Howitzer. If there's a good road net, that helps. If there's lots of city, that helps too. However I usually choose the vanilla howitzer anyway, because it's extra range gives it a better chance of firing a second and third shot.

Whoever put the word mobile in the name was obviously in marketing. It can't seriously participate in any sort of fast attack. It's a siege engine for stalemates and defense.

Infantry
Infantry aren't glamorous, but hey, you don't get any choice, you HAVE to use them, so you might as well milk them for all they're worth.

Unless there's no chance of enemy fire, ALWAYS put your infantry under some sort of cover. They can soak up lots of enemy firepower and attention, leaving your lurking armor free to execute a reprisal.

Depending on the mission, here are some tactics you can use:

If you're trying to stop a GEV advance, a few infantry scattered around in cover make forward motion look really painful to the GEV pilots. For example, in Breakthrough there are beautiful natural bunkers at 1312 and 1514, that overlook the entire middle of the board.

If you're playing Ceasefire Collapse, these guys make a great clean up contingent in the swath of disabled enemies created by your armor. After all, they're already slow, so destroying stationary targets should be their main aspiration.

Think of them like pawns in chess: they're core competency is that they're not as good as pieces, so they get dangerous missions and occasionally get to administer the knockout to a much bigger piece.

Marines
New for Shockwave, Marines are just like infantry but they (a) cost twice as much, and (b) can move and fire normally on water. This would be a great deal if, say, 50% of the map were covered in water. Since only 3% is, I haven't found any general application for them.

Added 28-02-2003
There's speculation that marines will soon have the ability to submerge and therefore be nigh-invulnerable.

Light GEV
Well, it sure invites comparison to the regular GEV.

If you can dilemma a single enemy defender with two LGEVs, then clearly they're a win over the regular GEV ... unless the LGEV that breaks through can't punch through the armor of whatever it's sent to kill.

In open areas with plenty of room, against foes that have trouble splitting their fire (howitzers), LGEVs are clearly superior.

Swarms of LGEVs in the GEV move phase are pretty nasty against unstacked armor units. Think of six LGEVs getting the drop on 4 Heavy Tanks. They drop in, disable or kill two with 1-1s, then stack together and overrun the other two. 2 LGEVs exchanged for 4 Heavies.

If you're hunkering in a city, perhaps packing to the 5-unit-per-hex limit, you can't get nearly as much firepower concealed, and each 4 point hit has a good chance of disabling half the bunch.

Heavy tanks can drive through single LGEVs without chance of counter strike, so watch for it.

LGEVs double the amount of GEV-related paper pushing one has to do. They may double the time it takes you to do your move.

I'm still undecided whether I like the Light GEV better than the GEV.

GEV-PC
At a cost of one armor unit per GEV-PC, I don't see how this unit is a good buy. After all, for the same price you can buy a GEV, and a GEV is about as powerful as a GEV-PC + Infantry-3, once you take into account the superior speed and survivability of the GEV. Plus then you still get the Infantry-3 on the ground, cowering in the trees and sniping, for "free".

Certainly though 1/2 armor unit was too cheap for these guys. And reducing them to D1 makes them flying targets. Maybe 3-for-2 armor units is the way I'll play it...

Superheavy Tank
By now you're probably starting to wonder if I like ANY non-GEV units at all. Well, the superheavy is it.

Since it got upgraded to D5, this guy is a menace! It has the nice range+move of 6, just like the GEV, and plenty of firepower. Its D5 armor makes it a chore to kill, and means it overruns GEVs and disabled tanks for free! Along with the GEV and LGEV, it is one of the few units that can shut down a howitzer in 2 turns of movement. It doesn't fear overrun from any but the largest infestations of infantry. It marches over streams and through forests at full speed, and can use them as extra cover, preserving its longevity even more so.

In groups, it starts to leave gaps in enemy lines that remind me of ... a Mark V.

The superheavy is incredibly dense. It has the firepower of two stacked armor units, but does not have to worry about spillover effects like they do. If you want to see an example of how big an advantage this can be, play The Train once with a mostly superheavy attacking force. Attackers cleaned house, right? Now go back and replace each superheavy with double the number of heavy or missile tanks. Not so easy now, is it?

Here's a more accessible example of the superheavy's dominance: Notice that the odds of two Heavy tanks going up against a Superheavy are exactly the same as two Light tanks going up against a Heavy. Now notice that the Super has a reaction radius of 6 hexes, so it can push back the Heavies or get the first shot, while the Heavy versus Light scenario doesn't have that nice feature.

Note that the Superheavy can overrun isolated units with less than 3 attack strength. This is a huge list of units: Light-anythings, disabled standard armor units, GEVs, Infantry-1s, you name it. Even Ogres can't mop up stragglers this painlessly.

Anyway, if you're planning on absorbing some enemy fire, the Superheavy is the unit you should take.

Added 02-28-2003
Clarification: it can swim through water like an Ogre. I've started treating these monsters as 15 VP units unless there are Ogres in the scenario.

Summary
No analysis of GEV units can be complete without also understanding the particular terrain and mission objectives. When in doubt over unit selection, however, it is best to err on the side of flexibility, mobility, and survivability (GEV and Superheavy), than static firepower and numbers (Missile and Light Tank).

This document copyright 2000 David Morse. Permission is hereby granted to make and distribute copies of this document for non-commercial use.

Thread: Re: Original map

TheChin! — 2008-01-08T15:09:36+00:00

OK, I've tried to print three ways, none to a live printer.

1. Adobe PDF Print Driver: Blank Hexes Only
2. CutePDF Print Driver: Blank Hexes with roads and rail.
3. Print to Tiff Print Driver: Fully Successful, other that being cut up on four 8.5x11 pages. If I reset page size I should get a contiguous map.

I wish the program had a native print to or save as for graphic files, as then you could take a file to Kinko's and print it out. The only Print to Graphic format programs I have found are all commercial. Does anyone know of a good open source/free alternative?

Thread: Re: Original map

TheChin! — 2008-01-08T14:29:10+00:00

Have you seen this Ogre map editor? It has the base GEV map included as a sample.

http://www.sirdinglydang.com/OgreMapEditor.htm

If you download the zip of maps from the site it has more GEV and Shockwave maps. But regardless of those, it is a great program for making Orge/GEV maps for custom scenarios.

I should note that I, personally, have never printed a map from this program and cannot vouch for it's printing ability.

Thread: Re: Original map

Harv — 2008-01-08T13:26:04+00:00

HeroScape Master Set: Rise of the Valkyrie!

I want GEV just to use my Heroscape tiles!

Image

Debate — 2008-01-06T10:13:08+00:00

HiRes Scan, Complete Map, Metagaming edition

Image

Debate — 2008-01-06T10:09:43+00:00

HiRes Counter Scan, Metagaming edition

Thread: Re: Original map

dude163 — 2007-12-27T02:22:02+00:00

Hi

I cant find mine, but if you had some blank hex paper you could make your own using this as a guide

]]>

Thread: Original map

Neopeius — 2007-12-27T02:16:40+00:00

I used to own a copy of G.E.V., the one with the prettier map and counters. It got lost in one of my many moves over the years.

I own the combined OGRE/G.E.V. set now, and it works, but I'd love to play on the old map.

If anyone out there is willing to scan in a copy of the old map such that I can go to Kinko's and print it out in full sized glory, that would be pretty awesome. I don't have much Geek Gold to offer, but I'm happy to be free with it

Thread: Re: Ogre, part 2?

bigbadsteve — 2007-12-14T14:07:27+00:00

bryanspellman wrote:
Picked this and Ogre up for my son for Chrsitmas. Cannot wait to rip into the games that got me started decades ago!!!
I got Ogre/GEV for Christmas when I was somewhere around 11 or 12. Still having fun with them some 15 years later.

Thread: Re: Ogre, part 2?

bryanspellman — 2007-12-14T13:24:34+00:00

Picked this and Ogre up for my son for Chrsitmas. Cannot wait to rip into the games that got me started decades ago!!!

Thread: Ogre, part 2?

bigbadsteve — 2007-12-13T18:42:43+00:00

Following the popularity of Ogre, Steve Jackson Games released a stand-alone expansion, G.E.V.. Although Ogre isn't required to play G.E.V., being familiar with Ogre does make G.E.V. easier to learn.
Unlike Ogre, which is primarily 1 tank against an army, G.E.V. is a more conventional wargame with each side having multiple units to command. Also, instead of taking place on a barren, bombed out looking landscape, G.E.V. takes place on a rather lush looking landscape. Lots of grass, forests, water, and a few towns. This adds an element to the game by adding a number of terrain effects. This is probably the single biggest change to the general gameplay.
G.E.V. also adds several new units, including Mobile Howitzers, Light Tanks, and a train. Nothing earth-shattering, but variety is always nice. These units can also be used to add a new dimension to Ogre scenarios.
Like the title implies, G.E.V.'s play a large part in the game. Due to the limited effect terrain has on them, as well as being able to move twice per turn, they are quite valuable units. The Breakthrough scenario even involves getting a group of G.E.V.'s from one side of the map to the other.
Ogre's on the other hand are more confined to their namesake game, being used here mostly as an optional rule.
The components are the same as Ogre. A paper map and thin cardboard counters. If nothing else, this allows the two games to be mixed without any of the pieces looking out of place.
Despite the changes, G.E.V. still feels a lot like Ogre. While G.E.V. does lack some of the charm that Ogre has, it is still a very enjoyable game in its own right. It does add some complexity, but it's still simple enough to be considered a light wargame.

Thread: Re: The problem with OGRE

El Hidalgo — 2007-10-23T18:05:22+00:00

On second thought I will just keep them to myself and share in my small circle of Ogre fans.

Thread: Re: The problem with OGRE

cratex — 2007-10-23T11:41:02+00:00

> On a side note I am busy typing up the rules for GEV and Ogre and will post them some time down the line.

I would caution against doing that.

Thread: Re: The problem with OGRE

El Hidalgo — 2007-10-23T07:05:19+00:00

Richard

I have read this thread in an earlier version and posted a reply back then as well as now. It seems that SJ is either playing the market, or is going to just ignore this gem all together. I would like to think the former.

As a SJ games fan I know that his products can be overpriced. Thus I believe that if he waits out the fan base that he will be able to release Ogre/GEV at an overpriced rate.

One would wish it were not so. Your are spot on about his production and marketing going toward Munchkin and GURPS. While I enjoy the GURPS line I am also clear headed enough to know it does not have the large fan base needed to sustain it. While Munchkin does have a following it also has an inherent design flaw that will take it to the point of diminishing returns. Munchkin is a sugar rush game. One gets a good laugh out of it the first couple of times out...but in order to keep the laughs coming...we need to get expansions.

Some of the ideas posted here are interesting. Blue and Red plastic tokens. An all inclusive set with all variants and expansions. The rules available in a PDF format. If SJ is not just playing the market, someone is going to take these ideas and run with them in a similar game. Helltank is already its own Ogre version and yet unique. It could benefit from some of these ideas. I would rather stick to Ogre, but if SJ is not going to move for the fan base, perhaps the creators of Helltank would.

On a side note I am busy typing up the rules for GEV and Ogre and will post them some time down the line. While I have the Pocket Box Editions of both I have worn out my old cardboard box versions of the rules and that is why I am retyping these out. I intend to get as much play out of these as I can before I open up the pocket box versions. The older cardbox game had heavier die cut counters too! Too bad that idea did not carry over to the newer sets!

]]> It is a great game!

Thread: Re: The problem with OGRE

CJstratgamer — 2007-10-23T06:45:49+00:00

Having OGRE/GEV as a pdf. file that SJG could sell via download wouldn't be a bad idea. Probably wouldn't be that expensive to implement, too.

Thread: Re: The problem with OGRE

hemepositive — 2007-10-23T06:28:04+00:00

I would love to see a simple PnP pdf so I don't have to cobble a copy together.

A small # of plastics surely couldn't be that expensive to make at a decent pricepoint. Look at the new Battletech starter kit.

I think there is a recent resurgence in wargame interest so maybe it would sell.

Thread: Re: The problem with OGRE

Norsehound — 2007-10-23T05:38:37+00:00

Since it appears that all of the Minis and the maps are still available for purchase, what would really help out a lot is if they sold the core rulebook, if not the starter set itself.

Ogre seems like the checkers of wargames, and I'm eager to play, both because of the little time needed for a full game and the lightness of the mechanics (So simple even my mother could play?)

I seem to be one of the fans contemplating making a coppled-together starter set, but all I have to go on rules-wise is the quick-start rules. They may create an interesting (and light) game to play, but it may leave me wondering what full Ogre/GEV would have been like...

Thread: Re: The problem with OGRE

PhilReed — 2007-07-08T22:31:09+00:00

Fenway5 wrote:
If you can't get 500 pre-orders, then skip it.

500 doesn't come anywhere close to covering the costs for plastic pieces.

Thread: Re: The problem with OGRE

cratex — 2007-07-08T22:11:29+00:00

For What It is Worth, I picked up a copy of "Ogre: Battlefields" at the Steve Jackson Game's booth at Origins this weekend for $2. There was some other Ogre/GEV stuff there also, both miniatures and stuff for the board game.

Thread: Re: The problem with OGRE

richmlow — 2007-07-06T03:25:00+00:00

Dan,

Ok....please find me a complete OGRE/G.E.V. set at a reasonable price. Feel free to look at SJ's website, Amazon.com, eBay, etc...

I'll be waiting for your answer.

richmlow

tool wrote:
Ogre/GEV is currently out-of-print. It is possible to cobble together a playable set, but that is a lot of work for newbies trying to get into the game. Furthermore, the ruleset is not available from SJ and company. They do offer the Ogre Lite Ruleset for free, but it is quite limited.

Who said anything about "cobbling together a set?" It's not that hard to find a copy if you really want one.

I'm still baffled by this attitude - which I have seen a lot of - that any game one likes has to be kept in print forever. The vast majority of games don't stay in print forever, so this seems to me to just be setting oneself up to be disappointed.

Thread: Re: The problem with OGRE

rramstad — 2007-07-05T22:26:27+00:00

The timing on this thread is interesting.

I've started to ramp up my 7 year old son on some more complex games.

He's always enjoyed the relatively simple classics and I want to get him some more exposure to different types of games.

OGRE struck me as a natural for an introductory wargame, and I own a copy already, have had it since it came out. He's interested, but I think the lack of real pieces and a real game board keeps him from being super excited.

I've looked around for a copy of Deluxe OGRE but they are hard to find and when I have found them they are too expensive. Just reprinting Deluxe OGRE would be a wonderful move.

I'd also think it would be a natural to do a Heroscape-ish version of OGRE with lego-like terrain tiles, prepainted plastic miniatures, and so forth. If successful, it would open up an entirely different avenue for profits for Steve Jackson Games, as it would be easy to sell expansion sets with additional units and whatnot.

Thread: Re: The problem with OGRE

tool — 2007-07-05T21:54:18+00:00

Ogre/GEV is currently out-of-print. It is possible to cobble together a playable set, but that is a lot of work for newbies trying to get into the game. Furthermore, the ruleset is not available from SJ and company. They do offer the Ogre Lite Ruleset for free, but it is quite limited.

Who said anything about "cobbling together a set?" It's not that hard to find a copy if you really want one.

I'm still baffled by this attitude - which I have seen a lot of - that any game one likes has to be kept in print forever. The vast majority of games don't stay in print forever, so this seems to me to just be setting oneself up to be disappointed.

Thread: Re: The problem with OGRE

Robrob — 2007-07-05T21:42:05+00:00

Fenway5 wrote:

4. SJG should produce and OGRE/ GEV game with plastic minis cast simply in 2 colors (red team & blue team?)

Good idea.

4a. Option one is to produce a BIG BOX version with all maps and figs to play basic OGRE/ GEV. This would run about $79.99

That seems excessive. OTOH, a decently made $30 base game (with thick cardboard counters) would generate enough buzz to kick start sales of the plastic minis (e.g. Wings of War).

Thread: Re: The problem with OGRE

richmlow — 2007-07-04T05:54:16+00:00

Ogre/GEV is currently out-of-print. It is possible to cobble together a playable set, but that is a lot of work for newbies trying to get into the game. Furthermore, the ruleset is not available from SJ and company. They do offer the Ogre Lite Ruleset for free, but it is quite limited.

Is this the proper way for SJ and company to bring interested newbies into the fold?

tool wrote:
That might well be a good idea for SJG, but I'm unclear on what the problem is from a player's perspective. Ogre and GEV aren't Titan, where if you want a copy you have to pay through the nose for it - demanding a new version of that makes sense if you're a devotee. However, last I looked you could get a copy of Ogre/GEV quite cheaply. So why demand a more expensive version?

Thread: Re: The problem with OGRE

richmlow — 2007-07-04T05:48:43+00:00

What I meant was the following:

If it costs "too much" for SJ and company to use plastic miniatures/bits in OGRE/G.E.V., then the next thing would be to have nice cardboard components representing the pieces.

KenHR wrote:
I enjoy GEV a lot. Every time I play, I'm amazed by the mileage such a simple ruleset can give. But if SJG won't get behind it, it seems it will have to live on in the second-hand market.

I'm not sure how a Samurai-like Ogre/GEV would work. I don't think I'd like it (and I love Samurai). But what were your ideas, I might be mis-interpreting?

There's always the freely available Grav Armor for the s-f wargame fix, which I've come to like more than GEV.

Thread: Re: The problem with OGRE

tool — 2007-07-04T01:15:22+00:00

That might well be a good idea for SJG, but I'm unclear on what the problem is from a player's perspective. Ogre and GEV aren't Titan, where if you want a copy you have to pay through the nose for it - demanding a new version of that makes sense if you're a devotee. However, last I looked you could get a copy of Ogre/GEV quite cheaply. So why demand a more expensive version?

Thread: Re: The problem with OGRE

Fenway5 — 2007-07-04T01:11:02+00:00

1. The maps, rules, scenarios, miniature sculpts, etc. are all done.
2. The game has a good following
3. The market is obviously there for expensive board games with lots of figures: TI3, Descent Tide of Iron, AOE 3, etc. etc.

4. SJG should produce and OGRE/ GEV game with plastic minis cast simply in 2 colors (red team & blue team?)

4a. Option one is to produce a BIG BOX version with all maps and figs to play basic OGRE/ GEV. This would run about $79.99

Then provide reinforcement packs of figs to expand the armies-in these expansion packs include rules for playing ogre minis $14.99 /expansion pack

4b. Produce 2 boxed sets (1 OGRE & 1 GEV) each would run about $44.99. In the OGRE box contain a MK3 and a MK5 ogre and basic forces to play the base scenario. In the GEV Box include enough figs to play the basic scenario. In either case-create reainforcement packs with additional figs for your particualr army and OGRE mini rules. $14.99

Make either option a project 500 pre-order event to guarantee-1) sales and 2) production money upfront to minimize risk in manufacturing.

If you can't get 500 pre-orders, then skip it.

Thread: Re: The problem with OGRE

KenHR — 2007-07-04T00:56:50+00:00

I enjoy GEV a lot. Every time I play, I'm amazed by the mileage such a simple ruleset can give. But if SJG won't get behind it, it seems it will have to live on in the second-hand market.

I'm not sure how a Samurai-like Ogre/GEV would work. I don't think I'd like it (and I love Samurai). But what were your ideas, I might be mis-interpreting?

There's always the freely available Grav Armor for the s-f wargame fix, which I've come to like more than GEV.

Thread: The problem with OGRE

richmlow — 2007-07-04T00:30:18+00:00

To the OGRE community,

Here is my take on OGRE. This short discussion is based on my observations, along with what information I could gather on the internet (blogs, discussion forums, etc.)

First of all, I think that it is a compelling game, even after 30 some odd years. The idea of fighting in a post-apocalyptic free-for-all, along with a simple combat/movement system, countless scenarios, folklore, die-hard fans/buffs all lend to make this game a classic.

However, I think that the mighty OGRE will not be able to surmount the obstacles it faces in this modern-day gaming environment for many reasons (much to my regret). These include the following:

1. Steve Jackson Games is currently on the Munchkin bandwagon. This particular "line" brings in the majority of their money, along with GURPS. Of course, this is a very practical approach that SJ is taking, as they need to stay in business if OGRE is ever to come out (in some form or another) in the future. When (and not if) the market becomes saturated with the "Munchkin" line, Steve Jackson and company will have to find another "cash cow", and OGRE will not be it.

2. I'm sure that OGRE is close to SJ's heart (it would seem so in his writings, conversations with others, etc.) and that he would like to bring it to the modern gaming world. However, his company is understaffed and spread too thin. Furthermore, I think that GURPS is saturated and that it is on its way out. However, SJ doesn't seem to think that it is and continues to pore a ton of resources into it.

3. SJ did release the "recent" Deluxe OGRE and Deluxe G.E.V. versions. However, they were expensive (both for the consumer and for SJ), and seemed to target the wrong group of people. Largely a commercial failure, these have been discontinued. Does this help the OGRE franchise?

4. SJ seems to be a very "controlling" person. Although I understand his protectiveness of OGRE, it is stifling it. The official rules for OGRE cannot even be found on his site, with the exception of OGRE Lite Rules. Also from what I can gather, it seems that SJ has benefited from the loyalty/hard work of many devoted fans/buffs of OGRE. However, it seems that SJ (in some of his dealings/actions with certain people) is more than willing to "throw-away" people when it is convenient for him to do so.

5. In its current form, OGRE cannot survive in the modern gaming environment (in terms of sustainability, marketability, etc.) The era of zip-lock bags and cheap cardboard chits is long-gone.

SOLUTION:

Is there a solution? I'm not sure that there is.

Perhaps, a nice version of OGRE/G.E.V., manufactured in the format of a tile-laying Euro game, would work....something similar in format to Reiner Knizia's Samurai. If SJ cannot currently afford to put resources into this, perhaps they should consider having a reputable game publisher do so (Fantasy Flight, Mayfair, Rio Grande, etc.)

Maybe, it is better for OGRE to die out. Certainly, time is not on the side of the OGRE franchise. As the years pass, the chances of OGRE making a successful comeback become smaller and smaller. Maybe, it has already reached a point of no return. I certainly hope not.

Let me know what you think. I'm certainly interested in hearing.

richmlow

Image

h3rne — 2007-05-30T23:55:07+00:00

Large prototype paper GEVs and the final resized version with a metal mini (upainted) for comparison

Image

h3rne — 2007-05-30T23:49:14+00:00

Paper Miniature Pan GEV with (unpainted) metal mini for comparison - back view

Image

h3rne — 2007-05-30T23:48:20+00:00

Paper Miniature Pan GEV with (unpainted) metal mini for comparison - front view

Thread: Re: G.E.V. Miniatures size

tog23 — 2007-04-26T03:23:05+00:00

Let's see - two Mark Vs and four GEVs -- somebody's in for a butt-kickin', from the looks of it.

Thread: New Ogre/GEV microbadges available

bill_andel — 2007-01-24T01:43:21+00:00

Microbadges for Ogre/GEV fans are now available. To purchase, just follow the link:

http://www.boardgamegeek.com/browse/microbadge/1281 (Ogre)
http://www.boardgamegeek.com/browse/microbadge/1282 (GEV)

Thread: Re: An Open Letter to Paul Chapman and Steve Jackson

Xlyce — 2007-01-20T05:11:52+00:00

sos1 wrote:
As far as the low BGG rating of Munchkin and its high sales are concerned, of course there's no real relationship. Munchkin sells to the RPG crowd, not the BGG crowd. I'd be surprised if most Munchkin players have visited BGG more than three times - it's kind of a hostile environment for them.

I agree, BGG is not their site, they go to other ones.

Thread: Re: An Open Letter to Paul Chapman and Steve Jackson

Fenway5 — 2007-01-20T04:12:46+00:00

Hello Andrew!

Sorry one quick disagreement with you...

OGRE/GEV desperately needs new maps and scenarios! Sure the ones given are fun...but what about a desert, or winter scenario and maps? Don't worry I have raided and purchsed a lot of games solely because the map scale works with OGRE/GEV and made up my own stuff-but it would be great to see SJG produce, or allow a third paty to produce, such materials.

FYI, for those interested Av Press is doing a 19.99 war game that has a 1km scale map of the entire island of MALTA (17x22). Works just fine for OGRE/GEV and is probably a great game in its own right. Island invasion and defenses here we come!

Thread: Re: An Open Letter to Paul Chapman and Steve Jackson

Duglis — 2007-01-20T03:47:34+00:00

Azog wrote:

It's dead. They have no desire to revise it. They have no desire to make new art for it. They are not going to reprint it, no matter what you, I, or anyone says.

We should just let it go. It's gone.

You sound very depressed. Drop Valley Games a line. They seem to be the star in reprints these days.

Thread: Re: An Open Letter to Paul Chapman and Steve Jackson

sos1 — 2007-01-19T21:28:21+00:00

As far as the low BGG rating of Munchkin and its high sales are concerned, of course there's no real relationship. Munchkin sells to the RPG crowd, not the BGG crowd. I'd be surprised if most Munchkin players have visited BGG more than three times - it's kind of a hostile environment for them.

Thread: Re: An Open Letter to Paul Chapman and Steve Jackson

andreww — 2007-01-19T21:14:35+00:00

Oh, come on.

#1 Few people love Ogre more than I. It got me into gaming. I have, probably two dozen different Ogre products around the house. I have a poster up. I have a scenario in the scenario book and two cartoons in the Ogre book. I have the PC game! I wrote a MOO implementation on the Pyramid MOO, and I... you get the idea.

I strongly desire that SJ Games produces new Ogre products. I'd help for free.

There are a lot of good games in the world, but running the numbers in your head as the Ogre bears down on the command post, watching the dice, knowing just what you need, the drama never gets old. It just doesn't.

#2 Mr. Chapman does know how many of things they sell. Not *that* much gets lost or returned. No one else knows, but Mr. Chapman and Mr. Jackson know not exactly, but within 1% what's selling.

There has been a lot of buzz the last couple of months. There was also a lot of buzz a few years ago, and a few years before that. Into some of these periods new products were released. Each time they were reasonably well received, but sales were mild. Us die hard bought games, in some cases we bought our fourth and fifth copies, but despite the buzz there weren't a *lot* of people buzzing. This time around there won't be any products, that seems clear. Too bad, it being the 30th anniversary and all. Maybe the 2009 buzz will get some response when the 500-pound gorilla is fading.

#3 Munchkin has a 6.0 rating with 2500 ratings, Ogre has 6.8 with 527 ratings, or something along those lines. The few people who like Ogre like it quite a lot. For people who like that sort of thing its a dead bullseye hit. Munchkin may be the favorite of only a few, but a *lot* of people like it well enough to buy it. With something like Ogre that was essentially out of print by the time BGG really got going, its a good bet that a lot of those ratings are sentimental - people have a strong appreciation for the game based on the past, but that doesn't mean there's 10,000 new people waiting to pay.

If there's a relationship between BGG ratings and sales figures, would you rather print something with a few ratings with a high average or lots of ratings with a good average? If you're looking for a spouse you don't need 500 people who think you're okay, you need one who thinks you're the greatest thing ever. This is the opposite. No matter how much a few love the game, unless you can print 500 copies of the $1000 edition you're better off, financially, if loads of people like it well enough to buy it, even if no on rates it above an 8.

So they're going to keep making Munchkin, and selling tens of thousands of copies, and not spend the time on Ogre, which would probably sell 2-4,000.

Also, there's only so much Ogre you can print. Munchkin never stops. What will be next? Cowboys? Pirates? A BGG edition? If you kept making Ogre expansions you would, in fact, ruin the game. Actually, I wouldn't mind scenarios, but endless new units would ruin it for me, and new maps are uneccesary. I would also like to see the factory states GURPS book and an operational-level game, but that's dreaming.

So what to do? Play the game! Download the "Lite" rules, if you look around the maps and counters are available online. I don't advocate cheating this way, but if that holds you over until SJ Games reprints Ogre someday or until you find a second hand copy at a reasonable price, there you go. Play it, write about it, it doesn't need to be "in print" to be fun. We nearly always have at least one game at each convntion here in the SF Bay Area. What kind of world is it when something is dead and can't be enjoyed if its not for sale?

So much more to ponder. Will the Munchkin gravy train hit the end of its track? If SJ Games abaondoned Munchkin to do the ultimate Ogre edition we all dream of would the Munchkin fans rise up with similar vehemence and form torch-bearing mobs? Munchkin Ogre? Ogre Munchkin? I would love an Ogre card game. How about a cooperative euro-style game where players try to stop the Ogre? The mind boggles.

One more thing: don't say Ogre is dead. Its not dead while I'm still alive and coherent. I got myself some sketches right here to build Iron Mountain out of extruded polystyrene...

Andrew

Thread: Re: An Open Letter to Paul Chapman and Steve Jackson

Xlyce — 2007-01-19T20:00:13+00:00

Azog wrote:
holleeday wrote:
how about preregistration as per wargames -would allow sj games to confirm that at least some sales were possible

It's dead. They have no desire to revise it. They have no desire to make new art for it. They are not going to reprint it, no matter what you, I, or anyone says.

We should just let it go. It's gone.

What you are saying is not entirely accurate. What he said was:

I agree. In particular, I agree that Ogre/G.E.V should not be simply re-released. The rules should be clarified and unified, the components should be given an upgrade, and a line of support should be planned. However, there's only one man I'd trust to do that job, and he's also the designer creating Munchkin. (He's also wearing the Editor in Chief hat, and sharing duties with the Production Manager/Print Buyer.)

Look, Ogre is SJ's baby, his first release. Ross, our Sales Manager, is a lead-pusher from way back. My first major responsibility in the company was Ogre. We'd all love to see Ogre (and Car Wars) returned to print, and succeed in a major way. However, the numbers (our income vs. our staffing levels) simply aren't in support of such a move at the moment.

What I read that as is this: We can't do it currently, but maybe in the future.

Thread: Re: An Open Letter to Paul Chapman and Steve Jackson

Fenway5 — 2007-01-19T19:44:05+00:00

God bless you William you're doing the Lords work Brother!

Way to man up and get it done!

Thread: Re: An Open Letter to Paul Chapman and Steve Jackson

Tisander — 2007-01-19T19:32:15+00:00

Fenway5 wrote:
Reposted from My OGRE post:

Hey kids...why bother waiting around for for someone *cough SJG* who doesn't want to do it to do it?

Heck-you can find the ogre/gev maps on line get a nice quality map printed out...OR buy the big hex versions (ogre minis) from SJ direct! Then mount that sucker on some foam core or leave them as paper fold outs and use plexi on top to make a good game board! I posted variant counters on the geek-just print them on sticker paper and mount them on 1 inch wood blocks from this site:

http://www.craftparts.com/mall/Geometrics3.asp

Cost:
Sticker paper about a buck a sheet you need 2 $2

Maps from uncle Stevie -about $15 total for an OGre and a Gev Minis sized maps

100 wood blocks $5

$22 dollars give or take with shipping for stuff call it $30 Heck spray paint your blocks 50 red and 50 blue or whatever colors you like. for an extra couple bucks

Of course this requires effort on your part-but heck if you REALLY want a pimp version, don't talk about it brother, BE about it! Man if you waste your life waiting for someone to do stuff for you you are going to miss out on a lot of fun!

I do this alot. Check Battlemist and Sails of War on this site for an axample of my pimping.

Image

dagibbs — 2007-01-08T06:37:33+00:00

original Microgame version map

Image

duckweed — 2006-12-29T21:44:22+00:00

A host of my painted GEV miniatures- Panuropean heavy tanks (in panzer gray), a Combine superheavy tank (red), and a Swedish light GEV (yellow, white and blue).

Image

duckweed — 2006-12-29T21:42:11+00:00

Brazilian howitzer defending the city.

Image

duckweed — 2006-12-29T21:42:02+00:00

Paneuropean GEV ready for action.

Image

MrWeasely — 2006-11-27T07:14:39+00:00

Combine and PanEuro GEVs