http://www.boardgamegeek.com/boardgame/9609 en-us Fri, 09 May 2008 12:10:27 -0500 Fri, 09 May 2008 12:10:27 -0500 aldie@boardgamegeek.com BoardGameGeek features information related to the board gaming hobby <b>VanMark wrote:</b><br><i>For them to move independently of an army (<i>or remain in place when the army moves</i>) a character die must be used.</i> <br>Not true. You can move an Army with an Army die and leave any or all Characters in that Army behind. <br> <br>If you move an Army with a Character die, at least one Character or Leader must move with the Army. Any additional Characters may be left behind. <br> <br>The important point here, as Ken pointed out, is that a move is not the same as a retreat. One is an action, and the other is a reaction. One happens on your turn, and the other happens on your opponent's turn. You have many more options of how to manipulate your Armies when you are performing an action that you initiate and control than you do when you're reacting to your opponent's action. http://www.boardgamegeek.com/article/2297717#2297717 2008-05-08T11:19:00+00:00 Krieghund <b>perfalbion wrote:</b><br><i><b>VanMark wrote:</b><br><i>A retreat action is more like an army move,</i> <br> <br>See my post immediately above yours - a retreat is nothing like an army move. :) <br> <br>But you've certainly been playing it right.</i> <br> <br>I agree, I was just trying to help the OP understand the rationale for why the Character cannot separate from the army during a retreat. For them to move independently of an army (<i>or remain in place when the army moves</i>) a character die must be used. That is the extent to which a retreat is like an army move in my example. :D http://www.boardgamegeek.com/article/2297498#2297498 2008-05-08T07:39:01+00:00 VanMark <b>Berkut wrote:</b><br><i>I think that is just it - you cannot (and should not) be allowed to keep Aragorn safe. If you want to crown him, he will have to go to Minas Tirith and take his chances. <br> <br>The rules specifically state that a Character cannot enter a region that is under siege, for example. In fact, there is no concept in the rule for a character in a region that is under siege, unless the character is in the Stronghold. <br> <br>If he isn't under siege, where is he? There is no concept in the game of a space existing in the region seperate from the Stronghold under siege. <br> <br></i> <br> <br>Another option is to retreat the entire army to say Osgiliath or that territory just south of Minas Tirith. Then on your turn, use a character die to move him off to an empty/friendly Pelagir (where he'd be safe) or Dol Amroth...and crown him on your following turn. Of course this means losing Minas Tirith w/out putting up a fight. :) But if you only have a few stragglers left in your army, maybe it's worth it. <br> <br>Edit: Wups, forgot to add, retreating to a non-stronghold means you have to fight at least 1 combat round. Hopefully you have that combat card that lets you do a retreat before battle (and you don't get hit by "swarm of bats"). :) http://www.boardgamegeek.com/article/2296259#2296259 2008-05-07T09:22:34+00:00 Double Dan <b>VanMark wrote:</b><br><i>A retreat action is more like an army move,</i> <br> <br>See my post immediately above yours - a retreat is nothing like an army move. :) <br> <br>But you've certainly been playing it right. http://www.boardgamegeek.com/article/2295819#2295819 2008-05-07T06:58:33+00:00 perfalbion There are benefits to be gained from using a retreat to separate characters from combat units, plus rules problems created, so its not allowed. Retreating into a fortress is an example of both. http://www.boardgamegeek.com/article/2295816#2295816 2008-05-07T06:57:58+00:00 aforandy <b>Double Dan wrote:</b><br><i>He would have to retreat along w/the army. He can't separate at the point "to stay safe".</i> <br> <br>This is how I would play it as well. I don't have the rules in front of me here (and haven't played in a while), but I believe that Characters may only move independently of armies on a Character die result. A retreat action is more like an army move, and would not permit a Character from separating from the army (i.e. moving independently of the army). This seems pretty cut-and-dry to me. http://www.boardgamegeek.com/article/2295704#2295704 2008-05-07T06:27:40+00:00 VanMark Three thoughts - if one doesn't bother to read all of the (numerous) posts on WotR or similar games, it's entirely possible that you don't even find the rules question you're looking for. <br> <br>Second - FFG's rules tend to be pretty low on the clarity and organization level. While the old Avalon Hill had their issues, at least they usually included glossaries and some even went so for as to define "move" and "retreat." <br> <br>Third - if WotR is as complex as you get for wargames, the nuance we're discussing probably isn't apparent. The pieces moved, so it's a move, right? I run into that idea a great deal with any player of newer board games. http://www.boardgamegeek.com/article/2294590#2294590 2008-05-07T12:40:23+00:00 perfalbion In this case, the comparison is doubly problematic, since a withdrawal into a stronghold is not really a move in any sense of the word - the army in question does not even change its space - from a rule perspective, it is really just changing its status to "under siege". <br> <br>I am always amazed that games that are as thoroughly played as something like WotR can manage to come up with "new" questions on basic rules principles. Makes me wonder how many other people have been potentially playing it in different ways because they never bothered to ask. http://www.boardgamegeek.com/article/2294529#2294529 2008-05-07T12:15:35+00:00 Berkut <b>Bubslug wrote:</b><br><i>A retreat is a form of army move</i> <br> <br>I think this is the comparison is likely to get you in trouble in many, many a wargame. A "retreat" is only similar to a "move" in that pieces change position. But in the vast majority of games, a "move" is a voluntary action initiated by a player when it is their turn in the player sequence described. A "retreat" is either: <br> <br>1. An involuntary action caused by the loss of a combat. <br>2. An attempt to avoid combat prior to actually rolling dice (many games will call this a withdrawl or avoiding combat). <br>3. A voluntary action taken only after an inconclusive combat where one side opts not to fight again. <br> <br>Retreats almost never follow the same rules as "moves." They'll ignore movement point costs, may ignore stacking restrictions, might permit you to "move" through enemy units, etc. <br> <br>So when you're wargaming, it's best to think of "movement" as something you do when it's your turn to go. "Retreating" is something that happens as a result of something that the active player did. The two are not equal, even though pieces change position. In my experience, a retreat is most certainly not a move in 90%+ of all wargames. http://www.boardgamegeek.com/article/2293719#2293719 2008-05-07T02:24:31+00:00 perfalbion I've reviewed the rules again and have to agree that the intent appears to be that while in a region with an army characters are considered to be attached to that army (good point about the distinction between separated companions and the fellowship). However, the rules allow for a companion to be moved away from an army and for an army to move away from a companion. A retreat is a form of army move and it was a reasonable question to ask whether the army could retreat away from a companion (ie. leave him/them behind) in their rush to escape. The rules might have been clearer here. Note that the expansion rules are better in this regard. http://www.boardgamegeek.com/article/2293271#2293271 2008-05-06T10:53:47+00:00 Bubslug <b>Berkut wrote:</b><br><i>Hehe, one thing to remember when you despair of poor Aragorn getting killed.... <br> <br>In the movie and books, the FP won big time. Sauron, from a gameplay perspective, was absolutely terrible. He never took a Free stronghold, lost one of his own, AND let The Fellowship destroy the Ring! <br> <br>In fact, the Fellowship was probably foolish to enter Mordor in the first place - the Shadow was getting its a** kicked militarily anyway, being at -1 for VPs!</i> <br> <br>Hmm. In the books, Sauron/Saruman had taken the Shire and Dale, so they were on 2 VPs. The Free Peoples had taken Orthanc of course, so they were also on 2 Vps. Sauron was beseiging Erebor... <br> <br>Of course, it would appear that the game described in the boooks went on for a considerable number of turns, since the Free Peoples were able to draw and use nearly every Event card in the Deck. :) <br> <br>edit: As for the decision to enter Mordor, that was taken before the great victory at Minas Tirith. http://www.boardgamegeek.com/article/2292238#2292238 2008-05-06T05:35:58+00:00 Philip Thomas Hehe, one thing to remember when you despair of poor Aragorn getting killed.... <br> <br>In the movie and books, the FP won big time. Sauron, from a gameplay perspective, was absolutely terrible. He never took a Free stronghold, lost one of his own, AND let The Fellowship destroy the Ring! <br> <br>In fact, the Fellowship was probably foolish to enter Mordor in the first place - the Shadow was getting its a** kicked militarily anyway, being at -1 for VPs! http://www.boardgamegeek.com/article/2292210#2292210 2008-05-06T05:26:27+00:00 Berkut <b>Berkut wrote:</b><br><i>I think that is just it - you cannot (and should not) be allowed to keep Aragorn safe. If you want to crown him, he will have to go to Minas Tirith and take his chances.</i> <br>Correct. Otherwise, Characters would be nearly impossible to eliminate, other than as Hunt casualties. <br> <br><b>Berkut wrote:</b><br><i>The rules specifically state that a Character cannot enter a region that is under siege, for example. In fact, there is no concept in the rule for a character in a region that is under siege, unless the character is in the Stronghold. <br> <br>If he isn't under siege, where is he? There is no concept in the game of a space existing in the region seperate from the Stronghold under siege.</i> <br>Correct. The Stronghold is part of the Region in which it exists. It is not a seperate game space. The Stronghold box exists only to keep the playing pieces separated. In this case, as with any other, if a Character (or Nazgul) is in a Region with an friendly Army, he is a part of that Army. http://www.boardgamegeek.com/article/2291784#2291784 2008-05-06T03:09:31+00:00 Krieghund <b>Krieghund wrote:</b><br><i>I think MrWeasely is referring to the fact that the decision was made to avoid Moria (and the Balrog) <i>after</i> the Balrog's Hunt tile was drawn.</i> <br> <br>Good point - I now realise we did not interpret the Balrog rule correctly here as it was the first hunt tile drawn that was an eye tile and not the additional hunt tile for moving past the Balrog. <br> <br>Thanks for your & MrWeasely's help with this, I keep finding the need to adjust our gameplay as we revisit the rules and realise some aspect we hadn't appreciated. <br> <br>We keep coming back for more despite these little difficulties as the game has such good replay value. This kind of misinterpretation might explain why in our games the SP has been having such a hard time winning! It is my turn with the SP next so a bit of prep re-reading the rules is called for I think. <br> http://www.boardgamegeek.com/article/2291376#2291376 2008-05-06T12:14:00+00:00 TwoBob Yes, I'm sorry I was thinking about something completely different. I was mixing up "moving through enemy army without a problem" with the combat rules. It really has been a while :D http://www.boardgamegeek.com/article/2291018#2291018 2008-05-06T06:10:39+00:00 BagpipeDan I think that is just it - you cannot (and should not) be allowed to keep Aragorn safe. If you want to crown him, he will have to go to Minas Tirith and take his chances. <br> <br>The rules specifically state that a Character cannot enter a region that is under siege, for example. In fact, there is no concept in the rule for a character in a region that is under siege, unless the character is in the Stronghold. <br> <br>If he isn't under siege, where is he? There is no concept in the game of a space existing in the region seperate from the Stronghold under siege. <br> <br> http://www.boardgamegeek.com/article/2291003#2291003 2008-05-06T05:45:47+00:00 Berkut <b>Krieghund wrote:</b><br><i>If a Character is in a Region with an Army, he is part of the Army. This is not optional. The only exception is if the Character is still in the Fellowship.</i> <br> <br>It's been a bit but can't you decide a character is not part of the army the moment the enemy attacks, keeping him safe no matter what? He won't be able to help with the battle or retreat into the stronghold, but in this way you can keep Saruman safe or allow Aragorn to be crowned without worrying about dying? http://www.boardgamegeek.com/article/2290819#2290819 2008-05-06T03:14:57+00:00 BagpipeDan If a Character is in a Region with an Army, he is part of the Army. This is not optional. The only exception is if the Character is still in the Fellowship. http://www.boardgamegeek.com/article/2290799#2290799 2008-05-06T03:03:56+00:00 Krieghund I believe it depends on whether a companion attaches himself to an army in a region which is discretionary. If the companion stays separated, it is as though he is transparent to whatever else may be going on in the region. Once attached, for leadership purposes, they go where the army goes and if the army is wiped out so are they. Companions split off from the fellowship for various reasons (usually to mobilize the free peoples), but once they become army leaders they lose their autonomy. http://www.boardgamegeek.com/article/2290535#2290535 2008-05-06T01:07:52+00:00 Bubslug I think MrWeasely is referring to the fact that the decision was made to avoid Moria (and the Balrog) <i>after</i> the Balrog's Hunt tile was drawn. Since the Balrog's tile is only drawn if the Fellowship is revealed or declared and passes through* the Region containing the Balrog, the decision of where to reveal or declare the Fellowship has already been made before the tile is drawn. The drawing and application of the Balrog's Hunt tile is a done deal at that point and is unavoidable. <br> <br>Yes, you could have just stayed in place in Hollin. You may move the Fellowship a number of Regions <i>up to</i> the number on the Fellowship Track, so zero is allowed. The Track is reset to zero regardless, so any movement you don't use is lost. <br> <br>* or into, or out of http://www.boardgamegeek.com/article/2290360#2290360 2008-05-05T11:57:11+00:00 Krieghund Let's prove it with a negative. The rules for movement mention splitting Armies, but the rules for retreating don't. Armies retreat as a whole, and that would include any Characters in the Army. http://www.boardgamegeek.com/article/2290334#2290334 2008-05-05T11:47:25+00:00 Krieghund You are quite correct, sorry my explaination was a bit brief, Strider stayed in the fellowship and guided them to Dunland and then towards Rohan. He later split to Helms Deep taking Boromir & Merry with him, and then on to Lamedon using the 'Dead Men of Dunharrow' card, leaving Merry to his fate after activating Rohan. <br> <br>You might be able to advise on one option I wasn't sure about, the Fellowship was in Hollin with 2 moves on the track when they got revealed, could I have just declared them in Hollin and reset the move counter to avoid the Balrog? <br> <br>Any help with the rules is welcome as even after around 20 games the rules & FAQ make regular appearances! http://www.boardgamegeek.com/article/2289694#2289694 2008-05-05T07:45:38+00:00 TwoBob Not a rules error, but it is easy for a foolish Shadow player to let the Fellowship win a military victory. They only need two Strongholds. A good way to give the Fellowship a stronghold is to empty Mordor, bring Gondor to war (say, via Corsairs) and attack Osgiliath from North Ithilien without having any troops in South Ithilien (or vice versa, of course). The Fellowship troops in Osgiliath then retreat into South Ithilien and next thing you know they are sitting in Minas Morgul. Oops. <br> <br>Its also easy to leave a captured Fellowship Stronghold empty and get it liberated by suddenly appearing Fellowship troops (this is why it is worth taking towns next to strongholds). While not as disastrous in some ways as losing your own stronghold, this can seriously delay your plans for military victory as well as being rather embarassing. <br> <br>As for not getting Dwarves or the North to War, both nations control two VPs each. The Shadow can win a Military Victory comfortably without even passing by their borders. And its hard for them to do anything to the Shadow- no VPs in Rhun, Angmar is useless to the Fellowship without Far Harad (ha ha) and everywhere else is too far away. So its not suprising if they don't get to war. http://www.boardgamegeek.com/article/2289132#2289132 2008-05-05T04:57:47+00:00 Philip Thomas <b>capt yid wrote:</b><br><i>Quick suggestion I use for easily painting minis: <br> <br>Use a hot glue gun to glue each figure to a <br>large headed roofing nail; then stick them in groups of a dozen into <br>strips cut from a cheap board of blue foam insulation (about 1" thick)</i> <br>Actually, I do about the same thing now, but with golf tees, Elmer's glue, and styrofoam blocks. I should probably update the instructions with this tip. http://www.boardgamegeek.com/article/2289030#2289030 2008-05-05T04:20:55+00:00 dakarp Quick suggestion I use for easily painting minis: <br> <br>Use a hot glue gun to glue each figure to a <br>large headed roofing nail; then stick them in groups of a dozen into <br>strips cut from a cheap board of blue foam insulation (about 1" thick) <br> <br>Easy to handle and paint in batches. <br> <br>When it is time to mount them on bases they are <br>easily peeled off their nail. <br> <br>WARNING: This works very well on metal minis; <br>for plastic you may want to watch the heat, use <br>less glue, etc. <br>For either type, it is best to apply the glue to the nail head <br>(not the mini) then stick the mini on the nail. <br> <br>Gordon 5/5/08 <br>Edit to add warning. http://www.boardgamegeek.com/article/2289009#2289009 2008-05-05T04:13:30+00:00 capt yid <b>Double Dan wrote:</b><br><i>He would have to retreat along w/the army. He can't separate at the point "to stay safe".</i> <br> <br>That is what I thought, but is there a rule or FAQ supporting this? http://www.boardgamegeek.com/article/2288945#2288945 2008-05-05T03:52:23+00:00 Berkut There's a "frequently misplayed rules" document in the files area. I liked it, back in the day. <br> http://www.boardgamegeek.com/article/2288752#2288752 2008-05-05T02:58:30+00:00 MrWeasely He would have to retreat along w/the army. He can't separate at the point "to stay safe". http://www.boardgamegeek.com/article/2288434#2288434 2008-05-05T01:06:15+00:00 Double Dan Aragorn is with an army in Minas Tirith. The SP attacks, and the army retreats into the Stronghold. <br> <br>Can Aragorn separate from the army and stay in Minas Tirith, rather than retreating into the Stronghold with the army? http://www.boardgamegeek.com/article/2288405#2288405 2008-05-05T12:55:14+00:00 Berkut I don't understand why Strider was allowed to split after the second eye tile. AFAIK there's no rule that allows this. Only the Hobbits can do it, and only if they're guiding. <br> http://www.boardgamegeek.com/article/2287922#2287922 2008-05-05T04:42:07+00:00 MrWeasely Eureka! Rust-Oleum Crystal Clear Enamel (for a protective glossy finish) I sprayed this on the Elves and Dwarfs mentioned earlier. Ta-da no more tacky feel. I recommend doing this if your figures are tacky. I'll will post pictures later in the week with the finished product. http://www.boardgamegeek.com/article/2287886#2287886 2008-05-05T04:17:56+00:00 kingofthegrill Well, its always possible. After all, I'd be the first not to know, if you catch my drift.:) <br> <br>I think there are two factors confusing you. One is my tendency to comment on game threads even for games I don't own if I get interested enough. <br> <br>Second factor is that my university board games club had a copy of War of the Ring. Whether that was an 'early adoption' I'm not sure. I suggested they get a copy and I was the one who unpacked it, learnt the rules etc etc. So I had a working knowledge of the game, though not an actual physical copy of the game. <br> <br>By the time I'd left university (almost two years ago now) and started looking for the game for myself, it seemed to have vanished from the games stores. I only picked up the copy in Forbidden Planet by accident because I was given some Forbidden Planet vouchers- I didn't even think Forbidden Planet sold board games! (They're a fantasy/science fiction comics/films/etc shop- so War of the Ring makes some kind of sense, but they were also selling Ticket to Ride.:what: ) <br> http://www.boardgamegeek.com/article/2287294#2287294 2008-05-04T08:45:24+00:00 Philip Thomas Phil, did you get mind-wiped <i>again</i>? I always thought you were one of the early adopters of WotR. I seem to recall you posting often when I first arrived on the scene. <br> http://www.boardgamegeek.com/article/2287242#2287242 2008-05-04T08:04:34+00:00 MrWeasely I bought a copy of this on Friday at Forbidden Planet in Shaftesbury Avenue- they have a modest selection of boardgames in a pile in the basement. So I'm guessing its back in print, if its appearing outside dedicated FLGSs. <br> <br>I'm not sure its worth painting the figures though. Its not that difficult to distinguish them as they come. Plus, I'm lazy! http://www.boardgamegeek.com/article/2287202#2287202 2008-05-04T07:42:04+00:00 Philip Thomas <b>Desiderata wrote:</b><br><i> <br>If you have an alternative to spraying the yellow and orange, I'd use it. Perhaps you can use a brush and bottled paint to paint just the base of the Isengard and S&E units? That would be better, I think. I just don't have those materials, and am not willing to pay for them just for this one project (besides, it's too late for me :) ) <br></i> <br> <br>Gosh, if only we had some way to apply color on top of the things we want recolored. Oh wait: we do! It's called that yellow paint! So one more coat of that to cover up any fingerprints, then a coat of sealant, eh? <br> http://www.boardgamegeek.com/article/2287163#2287163 2008-05-04T07:07:50+00:00 MrWeasely <b>Desiderata wrote:</b><br><i>I'm not sure that a longer drying time will keep the yellow and orange from being tacky. I think it's just the type of paint. Perhaps a spray sealant might work? I dunno.</i> <br> <br>Just another update. Due to watching my kids and playing Mario Kart with my bro-in-law. I only had time left to paint the elves leafy green. I applied 2 coats and this morning they feel tacky:yuk: so, i'm going to pick up some spray sealant today to see if that helps at all. I'll try this before proceeding with the rest. Update to follow. http://www.boardgamegeek.com/article/2285852#2285852 2008-05-03T04:05:21+00:00 kingofthegrill