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Seven Reasons to Hate Eurogames
Matt Thrower
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I've been hanging round BGG for several years now, and I've been exposed to the wider world of German games, which the 'geek community seems to think are the bees knees when it comes to gaming goodness.

But I just have to disagree.

I was raised on the classic Avalon Hill and Games Workshop classics of the 80's and I'm sorry, I still think that those style of games are about the most fun you can have sat round a board.

So here's some of my top 10 games, along with the reasons why they're better than all this new-fangled euro-rubbish!
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1. Board Game: Diplomacy [Average Rating:7.12 Overall Rank:246]
Matt Thrower
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#1: PLAYER ELIMINATION

I like to think of myself as a modern, forward-thinking liberal who stands for fairness and inculsiveness in all the important facets of modern life such as work, opportunity and rearing a family.

That list, however, obviously doesn't include playing games.

Games are all about competition. They're all about getting one up on your opponent. They're all about winning and loosing. Games where you can be eliminated and thus face the shame and tedium of having to head home early are just adding spice to the mix!

I can't be doing with games that keep everyone playing until the last minute just for the sake of it. Take a risk and play a game that might just dump you out before you're ready.
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Paul DeStefano
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I have made this clear many times: if a game doesn't allow me to physically utterly destroy my opponent, it automatically drops in rating for me.
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  • Posted Fri May 19, 2006 2:39 pm
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Neil Parker
United Kingdom
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Player elimination is clearly vital for some games and others not so much if at all. It comes down to the game and the group. I personally like an element of elimination which is not the key aspect of the game eg TI3, Warrior Knights for the longer games or for shorter games eg Bang, Werewolf, elimination is not an issue because of the overall duration.
What i personally do not like is setting up a looong game heavy on the elimination theme - particularly if i or anyone else has had to travel a long distance - only to get knocked out immediately or very quickly and have nothing to do for a few hours. If i go to a games session its to play games in a social setting, not to sit back and watch telly or something. Its worse if there's metagaming going on. Eurogames can be fun and in some games the ability to get back in the game appeals to me eg as in Vinci. A problem with eurogames as has been highlighted is the lack of theme though. I love well themed games eg Fury of Dracula. In the end if some players want to play pure knock out games, then fine, personally i'm not a fan - besides, if a player is clearly winning, there is nothing to stop players from ending early declaring a winner - although others may feel hard done by if this happens too early/often.
Overall some games need elimination at least in part - the issue is really more about the group you play with and how you manage early knock outs when the game continues for others.
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  • Posted Mon Aug 6, 2007 12:36 pm
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Don Cooper
United States
Syracuse
New York
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One of the major issues here is the "Ganging-up" on one player at a time. Not only does the player not get to play for very long, their play is limited as a coalition goes after you. Euro games are based the principle of becoming stronger by eliminating weaker players. This is a principle that goes against the grain of having to win to take on the baddest and best. A Euro game of World War Two would have the U.S. player attacking Canada and South America and so on and so on.
 
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  • Posted Mon Aug 6, 2007 6:42 pm
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Matt
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Jon_1066 wrote:
The worst type of game is where you have clearly lost but are forced to keep playing for hours sucking all the fun out of the game for other people around the table.


I agree.
 
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  • Posted Wed Aug 8, 2007 2:12 am
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John Perry
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ynnen wrote:
Do you enjoy sports? I view games in a way as sports -- competition, in which there is a reason to keep playing, and opportunity for heroic comebacks.


You know, you're right. So they should just let everybody run in every round of
every event of the Olympics. If you were 2 seconds behind the leader in the first
round of the 100 yard dash, so what. Maybe you'll run 2.5 seconds faster in the
final.

ynnen wrote:

Player elimination like this (especially early on in a game that could take 12+ hours) would be like going to a baseball game, and being forced to leave after the home team gives up 2 runs in the top of the first inning. Boo. Hiss.


Actually, a better recent example would have been that they would have eliminated
the Celtics from game 4 of this year's NBA playoffs when the Lakers were leading
by 20 early in the game.

And by the way, in amateur sports leagues, they often do include "mercy" rules that
end the game early. I was in a softball league where if you were down 15 runs at
the end of the first inning, you lost.

I like elimination. Yes, there is a chance that I could come back from last place
to win in some games (Settlers of Catan comes to mind), but most games if you get
behind early, there's really no way to get back into the game. Better to suffer
the soul crushing defeat early and move on to another game.

 
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  • Posted Tue Jun 17, 2008 5:14 pm
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2. Board Game: The Fury of Dracula [Average Rating:7.04 Overall Rank:633]
Matt Thrower
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#2 THEME

Every Eurogame I've ever played feels like it's an abstract with a wafer-thin veneer of theme pasted on just to make it more appealing.

I like theme. I like it laid on thick with lots of fiddly special rules, cool components and clunky mechanics. I want to feel like I'm really there, rather than playing a game that's simulating being there.

Pass the red wine.
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Andrew Clarke
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The only one that I can agree with you on. I like short games, with no player elimination, with elegantly simple rules.
But I do like a good theme, and that's the single biggest reason I have for disliking certain Eurogames (Tigris and Euphrates springs to mind).
 
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  • Posted Fri May 19, 2006 2:56 pm
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Pedro Burgos
Brazil
São Paulo
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Have you ever played Antiquity? One of the most tematic games I've came across since I started playing the modern boardgames.
 
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  • Posted Mon Aug 6, 2007 4:12 am
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Chris Bailey
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Randy Cox wrote:
The way I see it, adults (most of 'em, and certainly the less fanatical gamers who don't come here) just want to have a little fun. They don't want immersion, just a taste of the theme. They don't want to dress up in midieval garb or put on pointy ears. They don't want to fiddle with special rules clauses that only those who follow a particular movie or TV show understand ("Well of course you can't do that, don't you remember how the evil henchman couldn't get past the X21 identity machine in the sixth episode of the first season of 24! See, they made a special rule for it. Here: 24.1.1.2.1 (a), second paragraph.")


Randy makes a good point. A lot of people think thin themes and short games are a bad thing but I'm married now with a 3 year old and an 8 week old. I often think about the games here and think "Wow...it would have been so cool to have these when I was in my early 20s. I could have played games all the time!"

Well I simply can't. I also don't go out bar-hopping and hanging out at my buddies house 3 or 4 nights out of the week. I have a different life now and while I can't do those things, I still like where I am. I just have to play less games and short games if I want my wife involved. Every now and then I'll go to a monthly gaming session to scratch a different kind of itch but I can't stay up until 4:00am getting hammered playing games anymore. So short euros are great for me.
 
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  • Posted Mon Aug 6, 2007 6:29 pm
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Richard Lowe
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Waterlooville
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Is it just me, or does "Teeny bopper plastic orgies" sound like a game playing that could get you arrested? surprise
 
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  • Posted Wed Aug 8, 2007 8:44 am
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Alex Bagosy
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Agreed. This is one of my major frustrations with many Eurogames. The theme rarely, if anything, has much to do with the gameplay. I wouldn't so so far as to say that I won't play a game if the theme isn't emphasized, but I'm much more likely to be attracted to a game due to theme (even if it's a very simple theme) than I am for any other reason!

 
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  • Posted Sun Jun 15, 2008 10:49 pm
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3. Board Game: Titan [Average Rating:7.08 Overall Rank:317]
Matt Thrower
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#3 PLAY TIME

Some Eurogames can be played in an hour. Most don't last longer than two.

To me, that's a filler game.

Game nights are all about staying up until 4am, gradually weaving a grand strategy to crush your opponents and take over the board. Sleep is for weaklings. I don't get to game that often, so when I do, I want it to last! If you want an hour long game to fill time, play cards, it's cheaper.

Someone in my gaming group has just sent round an email suggesting we hire an isolated cottage somewhere over a weekend, just so we can play one game of Diplomacy in peace. Seriously.
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Paul DeStefano
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This is the one I disagree with. I just don't have the time.
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  • Posted Fri May 19, 2006 2:40 pm
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Andrzej Stewart
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Quote:
Game nights are all about staying up until 4am, gradually weaving a grand strategy to crush your opponents and take over the board.


They can be, but not if you have to wake up at 7am to go to work the next day.

The folks in my gaming group, myself included, have a wide range of interests beyond board games. In addition to games, I also play several sports (I actually met most of my gaming buddies through these sports), play guitar, and will be starting up flying lessons soon, in addition to the aforementioned job. Most of us just have too many commitments to be able to cut out an entire weekend to play a single game. Believe me, a couple of people in our group have tried.

The nice thing about short games is you can fit them in pretty easily. Plenty of our game sessions have been impromptu weekday evening sessions where we've all found we can spare an hour or two for a quick game. A typical response is "Ah, I'm working on a conference paper, but I can probably take a quick game break." In the end, I reckon that I get far more gaming time in because of these frequent short sessions rather than having to wait for the rare behemoth weekend session.
 
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  • Posted Sun Aug 5, 2007 9:16 pm
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Emivaldo Sousa
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I don't mind long games, but often there's something in the way of a gaming marathon, as a lot of people here have said: kids, long work hours, uncompromised friends, little tables and, you know, that other bigger game that we all play (and loose in the end) called life.

But generally speaking, long is good.
 
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  • Posted Mon Aug 6, 2007 1:14 am
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Wesley Hope
United Kingdom
Bournemouth
Dorset
With balance, it's all good, surely? I love the 'event' nature of long games, but you can't do that all the time. When we can, we get together for an 8 hour marathon (Risk last time, and we still didn't finish it) but that maybe happens 3 times a year. We probaly get a 3/4 hour game once every six weeks, but with shorter (and not nessecarily euro) titles, we get a game in maybe once, twice a week. I can plow through a small Panzer Leader scenario in an hour, which isn't much more than a basic game of Carcassonne.
ATB
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  • Posted Tue Aug 7, 2007 2:14 pm
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Azog
United States
Baton Rouge
Louisiana
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I have a philosophy. If I don't have time for games, then I don't have time to live.

It keeps me going.

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  • Posted Tue Aug 7, 2007 2:38 pm
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4. Board Game: Balderdash [Average Rating:6.38 Overall Rank:1077]
Matt Thrower
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#4 BEER

A lot of the thought-heavy games in the top ten like Euphrates and Tigris might be admirable brain benders, but any proper game should really be tacitly encouraging the players to get drunk and have a laugh.

A game night without alcohol is like a pen without a nib. Pointless.

You'll have noticed so far that I tend to like bloodthirsty games which involve backstabbing and betrayal so I feel obliged to point out that yes, I usually do laugh when people turn me over in games. Not always but usually. Depends how much I've had to drink
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Needle
Australia
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Come over to our game nights-beer, Euros and laughs even in the dry games like Samurai and Through the Desert. It really depends on the gamers. If your group is already like this then Euros will only enhance this. Or you can just come over drink my beer and look at my old GW games.
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  • Posted Fri May 19, 2006 2:53 pm
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Pete McCartney
Canada
Calgary
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*Shakes head*
Gotta disagree with ya here, Board Games do not need alcohol!
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  • Posted Sat Aug 4, 2007 7:00 am
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Paul Clarke
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I think it depends how heavy the game is. For more casual games drinking is fine. For heavier games (more than about 90mins) I will probably enjoy the experience more if I'm sober (although it depends on how familiar I am with the game- I recently beat 4 of my non-gamer friends at power grid- and I was the only one who could technically be considered drunk!)

I usually play games in a room we rent at a pub, but pub prices are expensive so I usually stick to water. I drink beer at home though.
 
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  • Posted Sun Aug 5, 2007 7:59 pm
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Chris Bailey
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chaddyboy_2000 wrote:
I just don't understand why some people have to have beer involved in order to have fun.


I was like that in highschool but when I hit my mid-20s I stopped using the word "party" as a verb.

"What do you do for fun?"
"I like to party."
"Well I'll let you get back to that I guess."
 
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  • Posted Mon Aug 6, 2007 4:54 pm
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Chris Bailey
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I don't need booze to enjoy gaming but I certainly don't have a problem with it. I love a good wheat beer or margarita. But when people get shit-faced it's just annoying. I played games with a friend who's neighbor came over. It was Friday so the neighbor figured it was "get drunk night." It was like playing with a child and he bent the hell out of all of the cards in my game.
 
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  • Posted Mon Aug 6, 2007 6:44 pm
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5. Board Game: Warhammer Fantasy Battle [Average Rating:6.69 Overall Rank:735]
Matt Thrower
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#5 DICE

Dice are great. There's a visceral thrill to be had from casting a ton of dice across the table and waiting breathlessly to see the result that just can't be had through endless tile-laying, counter collecting and analysis paralysis.

Not enough Eurogames use dice. I'm convinced that one of the reasons I find Settlers to be the entertaining exception out of the Eurogames bunch is because there was a pair of dice waiting to greet me like an old friend when I opened the box.
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Chris Talbot
Canada
Ajax
Ontario
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You think games should have dice, but your first entry on this list is Diplomacy?

Chris
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  • Posted Fri May 19, 2006 2:48 pm
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Azog
United States
Baton Rouge
Louisiana
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There's something indescribable about rolling dice to determine your fate.

 
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  • Posted Tue Aug 7, 2007 2:40 pm
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Tom McThorn
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Newark
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There is something magical about tossing handfuls of dice for a game. It adds enough randomness to counter someone with better tactics/skill. Nothing more satisfying than playing Federation Commander and watching 1's and 2's come up as you blast your enemy.
 
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  • Posted Tue Aug 7, 2007 9:11 pm
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Nevin Ball
United States
Dallas
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I just love the "thaka, thaka, thaka" sound when shaking dice in my hand.
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  • Posted Tue Aug 7, 2007 11:09 pm
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Mathew Wilson
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Santa Ana
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Dice work best in large numbers, such as Warhammer and 40k. They also work in settlers pretty well. But I hate roll & move.
 
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  • Posted Wed Aug 8, 2007 12:27 am
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6. Board Game: Dragon Pass [Average Rating:6.74 Overall Rank:1542]
Matt Thrower
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#6 ABSURDLY COMPLEX RULES

What's so great about games that have a four-page rulebook which is mainly diagrams? For anally retentive geeks like me, big, thick rulebooks are great. Plus they can be used as doorstops.

I once firmly believed you could tell the quality of a game by the thickness of it's rulebook. Several heavyweight grognard games later I'm cured of that affliction but there's a special delight to games which include lots of rules for things that are never likely to occur - it shows foresight and thoroughness. In Dragon Pass I've never seen anyone recruit Hungry Jack but I'm glad to know that there's a section in the rulebook I can refer to if ever the desire strikes me to do so!
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Needle
Australia
Leichhardt
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I used to believe this and still too to an extent and I was such a follower of this mantra. But then my purchase of Magic Realm left me a hollow shell of my formal self and decided simpler rules are the way to go. Anyone for Blokus?
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  • Posted Fri May 19, 2006 2:59 pm
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Emivaldo Sousa
Brazil

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The love for complex rules can somtimes turns against you. I really love all things Warhammer, but I found myself without adversaries very fast.

It also can scare away new players and can transform a gaming night in a nightmare (see my warcraft session report).

But I can't completly disagree with you, as I still like to read my old Warhammer Army Codexes.

 
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  • Posted Mon Aug 6, 2007 1:26 am
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David Lessard
Canada
Sherbrooke
Quebec
Europa Universalist

You need at least 4 weeks to study the game and another 4 weeks to teach it. Also, you need to understand all the brokens rules.

But damn, this game is so good, but never found enought people ready to invest 50 hours to play the campaign.
 
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  • Posted Mon Aug 6, 2007 9:11 pm
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Matt
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Yes I can see your point. The rulebook also has a recipe for beef stew and rice pudding. I too never used Hungry Jack, but I did make the stew and pudding.

Ok, the truth is, I didn't even play the game. I just bought it for the beef stew recipe.
 
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  • Posted Wed Aug 8, 2007 2:22 am
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Darrell Pavitt
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Lezard wrote:
Europa Universalist

You need at least 4 weeks to study the game and another 4 weeks to teach it. Also, you need to understand all the brokens rules.

But damn, this game is so good, but never found enought people ready to invest 50 hours to play the campaign.


Plus an extra week to translate from "Franglais".

IIRC, dragons make up to 3 units in their stack immune to magic - Cragspider is immune only if chosen as one of those.

Dragon Pass is possibly the most chrome laden game ever, but strangely, the theme is so strong I can remember most of the special rules just by looking at the units.
 
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  • Posted Tue Apr 15, 2008 11:07 am
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7. Board Game: Junta [Average Rating:6.91 Overall Rank:414]
Matt Thrower
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#7 PLAYER INTERACTION

Too many Eurogames make you feel like you're in a turn-taking puzzle solving session than actually playing a game with other people. Sure you're making decisions and planning a strategy but too often to seems like you're playing against the game rather than trying to outwit other players.

A proper game should demand lots of player interaction both in terms of talking and in terms of pieces interacting with other pieces on the board. What sort of game is it where you can't negotiate some sort of deal with an opponent and then renege on it? And then have him shot as a traitor afterwards?
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T M
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Longview
Texas
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Sounds like I really need to get this game!
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  • Posted Fri May 19, 2006 2:50 pm
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Chris Bailey
United States
Broomfield
Colorado
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luckyjim wrote:
My favourite - trade someone loads of influence to get a big favour and then shout "he's too powerfull, kill him!" Works every time. devil

I miss this game.


HAHAHAHA!!! SWEET!
 
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  • Posted Mon Aug 6, 2007 6:56 pm
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Richard Hutnik
United States
Poughkeepsie
New York
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You believe a trademark of non Eurogames is player interaction. Aka, you mean Ameritrash. A proper game needs a LOT of player interaction? Explain to me Blackbeard then and defend it in this forum thread:
http://www.boardgamegeek.com/thread/191478

And what kind of game has interaction if it takes you about a half hour before you get to do anything again?
 
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  • Posted Tue Aug 7, 2007 9:11 pm
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michele sommi
Italy
Parma
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interaction ? like in AH History of the World ? Last match I had a nap in between 2 of my turns.
 
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  • Posted Fri Aug 17, 2007 2:42 am
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ian smith
Scotland
Glasgow
I Play Green
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Reedo wrote:
This is perhaps my biggest complaint re: Eurogames. Most feel like multi-player solitaire. Yeah, that's cool. shake Let's spend 1-2 hours together pretending the other player doesn't exist. Add on top of that a real lack of theme and I'd say you're in for one hoot of an evening!

BLEH!


I'm sorry to say that this is simply the largest piece of absolute balderdash I have read in the geek since arriving here. How many of the Eurogames have you actually played?

These games are packed with interaction, furthermore engaging with the game provides another level of interaction, the game is like a hub into which all the players are plugged, each subtle manipulation has ramifications for every other player. Take pretty much any of the major knizia games and they are jam packed with interaction. Modern Art, High Society, Tigris, Samurai. Check your Europhobia at the door next time you try and make a reasoned argument. To draw the conclusion's you have simply reeks of ignorance.

Do yourself a favour, buy a copy of Die Macher, learn the rules and then play it a few times, no games provides more interaction in my experience. No game could be more Euro if it tried.




 
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  • Posted Wed Feb 20, 2008 3:37 pm
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Dan Scott
Canada
Port Perry
Ontario
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Brave! thumbsup
 
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  • Posted Fri May 19, 2006 2:25 pm
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Mark Bretherton
Australia
Sydney
Unspecified
Comments on this list are living proof that many Geeks have no sense of humour or irony.

He put some bait on the hook and like the suckers you are you opened your mouths and chomped on it. Thanks for the laugh.
1 
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  • Posted Mon Aug 6, 2007 7:45 am
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Pedro Silva
Portugal
Porto
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MattDP wrote:
As I said above, it's semi serious. If you've read my profile you'll notice that I've got two Euros in my top ten, and a couple more that I've rated 7. So I can hardly hate them that much!


Semi-seriously, I think that anyone who needs a reason to hate such a broad span of games (either Euro or any other) is probably on the wrong site when visiting BGG.

MattDP wrote:
The point of the list was to provide an alternative view of what makes a good game and facilitate the resulting debate. It seems to me that the Euro-style has an almost complete hegemony over all the others on the 'geek almost to the point of elitism. I do get sick and tired of hearing people say how great it is to be playing short, nonrandom games with minimal player interaction. There are other game styles out there and they do have their advantages and their fanbase - so give them a chance!


As this part seems more serious I'll call you on this one. Just to give my two cents, after having made a brief and hopefully humorous comment on one of the entries, and leave it at that as this "debate" does tire me quite swiftly.
There needs not be a debate. What "debate" has existed around this shallow issue has been vacuous and destructive.
Euro-Style games (whatever that is) do seem to have been elected as an elite by those calling themselves Ameritrashers (whatever they are), that is true. And these Ameritrashers have found this to be a justification for hate and endless attempts at demonstrating that other games are better than this supposed elite...

You get tired of hearing people say how great it is to play the games they like... Lately the most I've been seeing on the 'geek is people saying how much they hate this or that kind of game. BGG almost seems to be changing from a community of board game lovers to one of board game haters. I am getting tired of that, aren't you?

There are other games out there, but they are in here too. There are people who like them and they have their place here too. No one has done anything to prevent them from using this site or adding and rating these games, as far as I know.

BGG has room for both Euro-Style (whatever that is) and Ameritrash (idem). If some games have better ratings or reviews or a larger fan base that only reflects the preferences of the community. It does not deprive said games of any "chance" (to what purpose this "chance" should be given is unclear).

Would it make you happier is there was a AGG (AmeritrashGameGeek) site somewhere where only Ameritrash games were present? What about splitting also the card games? And maybe also one for the abstracts? And one for those with green bits? Would it make you happier to have all gamers neatly boxed and labelled on their respective sites? How small and confinde should these boxes be? Would that contribute to have more people join this hobby and respect it as a valid activity, you think?

What is the purpose, the objective, if there is one, of this "debate"?
 
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  • Posted Tue Aug 7, 2007 1:25 am
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Benny Meyers
United States
Chicago
Illinois
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Geeklist necromancy!
 
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  • Posted Wed Aug 8, 2007 1:57 am
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Laszlo Molnar
Hungary
Budapest
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Thank you for this list. Not as if I agreed on anything; I just love Eurogames. Even if I find your statements contradict theirselves (you need 40-page rule sets while you miss the 'fun' from Euro games? I just can't find 'fun' in a game with more than 16 pages of rules at all; all the game is about checking the rule book instead of developing strategies etc.) and other statements simply strange (who, in 2008, does have time for games that last a whole night? I just love that I can play most Euros in an hour). But at least I can have an insight why so many ameritrash-lovers hate Euros. I can't understand them but at least I can see the reasons.
 
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  • Posted Sun Dec 14, 2008 9:29 pm
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