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What Ameritrash Fans Want
Matt Thrower
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Lajos' recent list on Ameritrash games sparked a number of interesting comments, not least a few along the lines of "Ameritrash is an empty games classification". Now one of the interesting things about the AT phenomenon is that although nebulous it clearly means a lot to a minority of 'geek users like myself who don't view themselves as Wargamers or as Eurogamers. Maybe we should classify AT fans as misfit gamers who don't belong to the usual categories.

With this is mind I thought it might be interesting to look at the top 25 games as rated by those with an Ameritrash geekbadge. There are 23 such users, and I've included games rated by at least 6 of that group - roughly 25%. It should perhaps be higher but a number of AT classics are out of print and so don't have a wide exposure.

After the list I'm going to post a few thoughts on what the AT classifiction means to me. Before that, here's a diagram of how I think the category relationships pan out:
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1. Board Game: Heroscape Master Set: Rise of the Valkyrie [Average Rating:7.38 Overall Rank:146]
Matt Thrower
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#25 : Heroscape
Ratings: 12
Average: 7.17


This game clearly ticks a lot of AT boxes - figures, random, theme and so forth. The reason it's not higher up the list I suspect is because it's regarded as such a light game. AT fans still like a little meat on their games.
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Michael Barnes
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Georgia
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This game has AT appeal not only because of the toys/theme, but also because it's just unpretentious fun and it's _very_ straightforward. The mechanics never get in the way of making laser sounds or viking battle cries.

It's like I say to people who ask if "Sky Captain and the World of Tommorrow" is any good. I tell 'em, if you want to see a man punching a robot, yes. Heroscape is sort of the same way.
 
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  • Posted Mon Oct 30, 2006 4:04 pm
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The Fiend
United States
Avon Lake
Ohio
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psssst.....it's sarcasm Robin's using, like a typical AT gamer would. But, only when enjoying a rousing game of HEROSCAPE!
 
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  • Posted Wed Nov 1, 2006 12:10 am
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robin goblin
Canada
Toronto
Ontario
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  • Posted Wed Nov 1, 2006 2:33 am
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Charley Eastman
United States
Franklin
Massachusetts
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Sky Cptain was a disapointment.
Heroscape on the other hand is the new recruiting tool for tommorows Ameritrash gamers.


Let me help you clean that up...
Heroscape was a disappointment.
Sky Captain, on the other hand, is the new recruiting tool for tomorrows steam punk gamers.

imh---no, nix that. I'm just right.shake
 
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  • Posted Wed Nov 1, 2006 12:02 pm
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Shawn Baldwin
United States
St. Robert
Missouri
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Heroscape is not so much a game as it is a lifestyle.
 
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  • Posted Wed Nov 1, 2006 4:20 pm
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2. Board Game: Ra [Average Rating:7.60 Overall Rank:48]
Matt Thrower
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#23 (Tie) : Ra
Ratings: 10
Average: 7.2


One thing that most AT fans seem to agree on is that "fun" games are worth playing whatever category they belong to. With that in mind, Ra is exactly the sort of Euro you'd expect to find on this list - light/mediumweight, fast playing and highly entertaining.
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John Di Ponio
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Unless you are me!!! Just didn't like it.
 
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  • Posted Mon Oct 30, 2006 2:20 pm
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Jens
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Well, I don't know what most people think, but Ra is actually an egyptian god. His hawk-shaped head is not a mask. It's his actual head...
 
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  • Posted Tue Oct 31, 2006 11:26 am
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Morgan Dontanville
United States
Brooklyn
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I guess that makes sense, in a weird way, as I don't like M:RP nor Ra, but love Caylus & El Grande.
 
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  • Posted Tue Oct 31, 2006 10:46 pm
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The Fiend
United States
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Ohio
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Most people think that this game has its name from a great pharao. In fact it's only the short of cRAp.


Or, as in cRAp! I love RA, I must be a closet AT fan. I never thought of myself as a Knizia fan either until I looked at my games and realized I had 5x as many of his titles than any other designer. cRAp! Again %$@#
 
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  • Posted Wed Nov 1, 2006 12:16 am
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Preston Fuller
United States
Ashland
New Hampshire
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Or, as in cRAp! I love RA, I must be a closet AT fan. I never thought of myself as a Knizia fan either until I looked at my games and realized I had 5x as many of his titles than any other designer. cRAp! Again %$@#


I had the same Knizia revelation in my collection. Then I noticed that it is strictly math. If you own more then 30 Euro games then probablilty will get you and the vast majorty of games will be by Knizia. You can not escape him he is everywhere.
 
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  • Posted Fri Nov 3, 2006 4:13 pm
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3. Board Game: Arkham Horror [Average Rating:7.57 Overall Rank:69]
Matt Thrower
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#23 (Tie) : Arkham Horror
Ratings: 10
Average: 7.2


FFG practically defines the concept of modern Ameritrash, so you'd expect to see a lot of their games on this list. Here's the first. It's not higher up, I suspect, because it's a co-op game and co-op games don't tend to go down well with conflict orientated AT gamers.
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Michael Barnes
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Georgia
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But Cthulhu is _clearly_ the AT gamer's deity of choice.
 
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  • Posted Mon Oct 30, 2006 4:28 pm
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Jim Harvey
United States
Portland
Oregon
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i use:

SOC = Shadows Over Camelot
Soc = Settlers of Catan
 
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  • Posted Thu Nov 2, 2006 4:36 am
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Jim Harvey
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oops i meant:

SoC = Settlers of Catan
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  • Posted Thu Nov 2, 2006 4:38 am
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Nicholas Jost
United States
Fresno
California
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I have a sneaking suspicion that programmers are running around on this list. There are way too many letters without words floating about.

PS-> SoC is Settlers of Catan. Only heretics say otherwise.
 
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  • Posted Thu Nov 2, 2006 4:53 pm
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Ken Bradford
United States
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Hmmm...if "SOC" is off limits for Shadows Over Camelot, then I guess we'll have to think of a new name.

I suggest "Steve".
 
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  • Posted Fri Nov 3, 2006 5:43 pm
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4. Board Game: Citadels [Average Rating:7.28 Overall Rank:139]
Matt Thrower
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#22 : Citadels
Ratings: 10
Average: 7.3


See my comments on Ra, above. This fits the same sort of criteria but is probably higher thanks to the screwage factor.
 
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Michael Barnes
United States
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Georgia
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TEETH! robot
 
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  • Posted Mon Oct 30, 2006 4:06 pm
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The Fiend
United States
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Ohio
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cRAp! got it, love it.
 
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  • Posted Wed Nov 1, 2006 12:23 am
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5. Board Game: Railroad Tycoon [Average Rating:7.69 Overall Rank:45]
Matt Thrower
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#20 (Tie) : Railroad Tycoon
Ratings: 8
Average: 7.38


Another Euro that one isn't surprised to see here although it's longer and heavier than the two previous Euro entries. After all, as AoS fans never tire of telling us the game is considerably less of a brain-strain than it's highly regarded cousin.
 
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Michael Barnes
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What's "brainstraining" about being broke all the time and having one gamey mechanic after another hamstring you from really enjoying the theme of the game? RRT is a vastly superior, much more enjoyable game that backseats the homeliness and lack of scope in AoS in favor of an epic, widescreen approach. Definitely honorary AT with some excellent Euro mechanics.
 
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  • Posted Mon Oct 30, 2006 4:30 pm
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Dan Rosewater
Switzerland
Zürich
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DarellKH wrote:
But when I play AoS I regret what I do wrong, and when I play RRT, I regret what Eagle Games did wrong.

That's the shortest and best definition on what the differences between AoS and RRT are. thumbsupthumbsup
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  • Posted Mon Oct 30, 2006 6:51 pm
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Ken Bradford
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It goes back to tolerating tons of rules for themes we like as opposed to lots and lots of rules for something we don't care about having the chrome for.

It's about freaking trains, man. Let's keep the chrome for that one on the lighter side. So yeah, I don't really have time for AoS.

...well, I don't care much for RRT either, but that's neither here nor there.
 
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  • Posted Mon Oct 30, 2006 7:13 pm
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Matt Thrower
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On consideration I think this game delivers on another aspect of AT fandom we've not yet touched on - Empire Building. AT gamers sure seem to like games with economic models that allow you to start small and build up to grand designs. I don't think it's a marker for the genre, but it seems a popular trend amongst AT games.
 
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  • Posted Mon Oct 30, 2006 7:33 pm
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The Fiend
United States
Avon Lake
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Yes, yes, yes, my precious! This game stays permanently set-up on my miniatures table after knocking off WotR for the spot. You want AoS with better bits? Play RRT without the cards and Tycoons or do like I do and take out what you don't like (New Train/Speed Record/all Service Bounties/all Major Lines/Jay Gould, Daniel Drew and Mark Hopkin). The game is tense, exciting and always close when played this way. For 2-3 players I only reduce 5 & 4 cities by 1 good and play until there are 12 empty cities. I am soooooo Ameritrash. Yeah, baby! Let's go build an Empire.
 
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  • Posted Wed Nov 1, 2006 12:35 am
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6. Board Game: El Grande [Average Rating:7.89 Overall Rank:14]
Matt Thrower
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#20 (Tie) : El Grande
Ratings: 8
Average: 7.38


This is the first big surprise of the list. I would've thought this game too long, dry and microanalytical for AT fans and indeed one or two of the raters (including crackedlcd81 inevitably) don't like it. But there's enough positive comments to give this a general thumbs up from the group.
 
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Michael Barnes
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Decatur
Georgia
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Yes, I know a few AT'ers that love El Grande...not me! yuk
 
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  • Posted Mon Oct 30, 2006 4:08 pm
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Steve Bernhardt
United States
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Utah
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I like this one, but everyone has to agree to move fairly fast or it turns into a long game.
 
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  • Posted Mon Oct 30, 2006 6:31 pm
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7. Board Game: The Settlers of Catan [Average Rating:7.51 Overall Rank:78]
Matt Thrower
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#19 : Settlers of Catan
Ratings: 16
Average: 7.38


We seem to be getting the usual suspect Euros out of the way early, hopefully to be making up for some genuine Ameritrash fare further up the list. This one goes down well, I suspect, thanks to the presence of dice.
 
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Miguel de la Casa
Spain
Madrid
Madrid
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I hope the reasons why it "goes down so well" are: high interaction, light put certainly present strategy and so on... Thinking it's because of the dice does a hugh mis-service to Ameritrash, I think.
 
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  • Posted Mon Oct 30, 2006 12:45 pm
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David
Canada

Ontario
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Get Cities and Knights, get the biggest army and let the Barbarians do all the burning for you.

This game is a fabulous Euro design, with ALOT of actual interaction in it, especially with the C&K expansion. It avoids that horrible "multiplayer solitaire" feel of so many of the heavy Euros, most of which aren't on this list. Lots of wheeling, dealing and screwing people over in this game, and that's why I love it.

 
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  • Posted Tue Oct 31, 2006 12:36 am
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David Hiller
United States

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Hey for the largest army I am going to submit to the game contest a version called when knights attack. That precisely deals with your armies being able to attack the settlments or cities. And including a barracks that will allow you to use all of your knight pieces available for attacking.laugh
 
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  • Posted Tue Oct 31, 2006 1:10 am
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tiger tiger
United States

South Carolina
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This fails the Ameritrash test, at least for me. If I have the biggest army, why can't I burn down your cities and make your people my thralls?


Becuase you don't have armies in SoC....
Just a card.
 
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  • Posted Tue Oct 31, 2006 2:37 am
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The Fiend
United States
Avon Lake
Ohio
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CATAN is like Lays Potato Chips, no one can own just one. 5-6 player expansions, SEAFARERS, STARFARERS, CITIES AND KNIGHTS, HISTORICAL EXPANSIONS I & II, STONEAGE, CANDAMIR, ELASUND and finally 3D. Phew! Oh, yeah, 2-player and 5 expansions plus many other tie-ins. An entire Catan gaming Universe. Who-Hoo!
 
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  • Posted Wed Nov 1, 2006 1:00 am
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8. Board Game: Bohnanza [Average Rating:7.13 Overall Rank:198]
Matt Thrower
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#18 : Bohnanza
Ratings: 8
Average: 7.63


A mild surprise entry for this one - I'd have thought it further down the list if it made the cut at all. I think it's the potentially raucous and sneaky trading elements that appeal to the AT group.
 
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Paul Szilagyi
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You know what I don't like about this game? There's HUGE potential for screwage here, but my group just won't take advantage.

Granted, I've been trying to use this as a gateway game... but even when I slant the explanation of rules that way ("You don't HAVE to accept a donation... a player is forced to plant any beans they can't trade away or donate.") I just can't get any takers.

So what if that extra wax bean will maybe get you another gold, IF you find it a partner, in the coming turns? Right now, you could be using it to force that guy to kill his growing red bean stack, or else the chili's he won't even get a gold for if ONLY YOU WOULDN'T ACCEPT A TRADE!!!!

Argh.shake

If I could get my serious gaming friends into this game (AT gamers all), THEN I'd think this game right at home in my Ameritrash compendium.
 
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  • Posted Tue Oct 31, 2006 10:52 am
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Chris Bailey
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ZeroZilla wrote:
You know what I don't like about this game? There's HUGE potential for screwage here, but my group just won't take advantage.



I feel the same way. I could NEVER get people to say "no thanks" to a domation even if it meant the donating player would get screwed.
 
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  • Posted Mon May 3, 2010 7:41 pm
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9. Board Game: Lord of the Rings [Average Rating:6.91 Overall Rank:324]
Matt Thrower
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#17 : Lord of the Rings
Ratings: 9
Average: 7.67


The second big surprise on the list, I'd have thought this far too buddy-buddy to drawn in Ameritrash gamers. I personally don't care much for it, so maybe I'm biased. Perhaps it's the rich theme that's the catch with this title.
 
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Robert Martin
United States
Atlanta
Georgia
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Rich theme and brutal gameplay. No surprise that AT fans like it.
 
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  • Posted Mon Oct 30, 2006 4:26 pm
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Ken Bradford
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Well Frank, with the statistical analysis here along with personal anecdotes, you *might* be wrong there. Just sayin'.

It's possible the only reason an AT'er might give this a shot is because of the theme, but heck, I've played plenty of bad licensed games in my time that never got a second look afterward.

This one's a keeper. And I'm about as AT as it gets.
 
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  • Posted Tue Oct 31, 2006 3:22 am
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Ken Bradford
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It's all good, Frank. I'm not sure what it is about this one that inspires such a love/hate relationship.

Like...some say the theme is pasted on, but I look at it and see the theme pretty well realized. *shrug*

Diff'rent strokes and all that, lots of games to go around!

laugh
 
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  • Posted Tue Oct 31, 2006 11:41 am
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Josh
United States

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I think the comment about it being a party game is right on, though I never would of thought of it that way.


Bought this several years ago, and was disappointed after the game played me a few times. Recently played it with the in laws, and everyone had a good time because it's an easy game to "get." Also, a lot of people don't like to learn new games because they don't want to lose, and the cooperative aspect helps in that regard.


Furthermore the mechanic (as pushy as it may be) is really good at ratcheting up the tension, as it seems to pretty much guarantee that you lose about four spaces away from winning the game. I think this kind of last second do-or-die situation is appealing to Ameritrashers.


However, my Ameritrash roots say give me screwage or give me death! I'll even accept screwage and then death!
 
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  • Posted Wed Nov 1, 2006 11:16 am
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Charley Eastman
United States
Franklin
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Quote:
Note the part where I said "I thought".
I'm still surprised this rates so high on this list - LOTR always struck me almost as a Euro pretending it was an Ameritrash game. Something which would come across as really thematic and exciting to Euronerds but mechanical and dull to the ATers. Guess I was wrong. I'd still rather play arkham or shadows.


I think LOTR feels like a marketing concept rather than a game ("You can have it ALL with Lord of the Rings!") and your comment is exactly why. It tries to hard and comes off weak at both. stinky.*


*not an opinion. fact.
 
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  • Posted Wed Nov 1, 2006 12:09 pm
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10. Board Game: Carcassonne: Inns & Cathedrals [Average Rating:7.60 Unranked] [Average Rating:7.60 Unranked]
Matt Thrower
United Kingdom
Bath
Somerset
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#16 : Carcassonne - Inns & Cathedrals
Ratings: 7
Average: 7.71


I can't comment on this entry as I'm not familiar with the game. The parent game got enough ratings but missed the score cut and resides at #31 on the list. I've no idea what it is about this particular expansion that causes AT fans to rate it highly.
 
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Michael Buccheri
United States
Glen Arm
Maryland
Sweet Holy Moses, Fruit F*cker Prime!
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This one lets you screw over the other players by dropping a cathedral in thier unfinished mega-city. For me thats why I like it.

-M
 
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  • Posted Mon Oct 30, 2006 1:57 pm
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Matt Thrower
United Kingdom
Bath
Somerset
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Quote:
This one lets you screw over the other players by dropping a cathedral in thier unfinished mega-city. For me thats why I like it.


Yep, that explains a lot. Screwage again
 
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  • Posted Mon Oct 30, 2006 5:41 pm
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Michael Barnes
United States
Decatur
Georgia
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I've been re-thinking my position on Carcassonne lately...I think it actually does have a decent amount of drama for what it is and it's a good game if you play with 2-3 players and as a casual game to enjoy with a glass of brandy. The expansions do make it a little nasty, which is good.
 
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  • Posted Mon Oct 30, 2006 6:38 pm
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Dan Taylor
United States
Unionville
Virginia
Just Another Washed Up Wargamer
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Who needs expansions? Last game I played was with "the fellas" and it was a battle the whole time, with massive fights to "get in" on cities and cut other people's fields.
We had to finish with a game of Wiz-War just to get all the aggression out, since Carcassone doesn't allow for actual "rock beats face" hostile action.
 
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  • Posted Wed Nov 1, 2006 2:02 pm
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Marcus Lau
Malaysia
Petaling jaya
Selangor
designer
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Carcassonne would be more fun if there were more conflicts and dice rolling. Like meeple-warriors or something that kills another meeple on an adjacent tile on the roll of 4+. Could call it Carcassonne : The Slaughterhouse..

But yeah, otherwise Carcassonne is a pretty ok game. I prefer Descent much more tho. sauron
 
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  • Posted Wed Nov 1, 2006 3:47 pm
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11. Board Game: A Game of Thrones [Average Rating:7.45 Overall Rank:108]
Matt Thrower
United Kingdom
Bath
Somerset
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#15 : A Game of Thrones
Ratings: 9
Average: 7.72


FFG's second entry, this one poses some interesting questions. Most people would agree, I suspect, that this belongs in the Ameritrash category, but it lacks two of the supposed key components of modern Ameritrash - dice and plastic figures. The wooden bits on this are pretty nice though.
 
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  • 11 comments [Hide]
Michael Buccheri
United States
Glen Arm
Maryland
Sweet Holy Moses, Fruit F*cker Prime!
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This is what happens to a good ameritrash game when you try to eurofy it.

This game fails for me on so many levels. It feels like a jumbled mess of different games that does not quite work.


-M
 
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  • Posted Mon Oct 30, 2006 1:58 pm
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Michael Barnes
United States
Decatur
Georgia
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Go hold hands with he-man you pansey.

I dunno...he might be more a Man-at-Arms kinda guy...
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  • Posted Wed Nov 1, 2006 2:24 pm
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Ken Bradford
United States
Fayetteville
Tennessee
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Shame when Man-at-Arms had to shave his mustache. Teela said it tickled.
 
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  • Posted Wed Nov 1, 2006 4:19 pm
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Sinister
United States
Unspecified
Indiana
I hate this game, no I really hate this game, I mean it, I hate it.


The wooden blocks are just the icing on my cake of hate for this game.
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  • Posted Wed Nov 1, 2006 7:42 pm
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Chris Bailey
United States
Broomfield
Colorado
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Sinister wrote:
the icing on my cake of hate


Man, that's an awesome phrase. I'm filing that away for future use! cool
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  • Posted Mon May 3, 2010 10:01 pm
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12. Board Game: Twilight Struggle [Average Rating:8.32 Overall Rank:1]
Matt Thrower
United Kingdom
Bath
Somerset
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#14 : Twilight Struggle
Ratings: 6
Average: 7.75


The first solid wargame title on the list, and even this stretches the definition of that genre way into political game territory. Can't say much on this due to ignorance of the game.
 
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Greg Forster
United States
Oconomowoc
Wisconsin
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It's kind of funny - some of the bits to this game have a definite "plain paper counters" feel, like old AT, but the cards and some parts of the board have cool Cold War historical photos that give them a real theme feel, like new AT.
 
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  • Posted Tue Oct 31, 2006 12:16 am
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robin goblin
Canada
Toronto
Ontario
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No, I'm not trolling. This game is not complicated. It's the simplest of the CDGs by far.

Robin
 
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  • Posted Tue Oct 31, 2006 1:58 pm
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Ken Bradford
United States
Fayetteville
Tennessee
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Yeah, but c'mon...there's a far leap from "the simplest of CDGs" and "Candyland".

I know that in the ASL world there is ASL and...well...Candyland. But the card interactions in this can be certainly more complex than, oh I don't know, a Blue Moon City or something, which is of course also not "draw a card, move yer gingerbread man" like Candyland. See what I'm saying?

Complexity is *always* relative. *Always*.
 
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  • Posted Tue Oct 31, 2006 6:48 pm
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robin goblin
Canada
Toronto
Ontario
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Well, the original comment didn't say, 'this is more complex than Candyland, therefore I don't like it.' It said, 'complex'. No relative to my left foot, no relative to anything, just complex. And, it aint......
 
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  • Posted Wed Nov 1, 2006 2:38 am
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Charley Eastman
United States
Franklin
Massachusetts
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Quote:
Wasn't so much that, but I do suspect we wern't playing the rules correctly. I remember thinking that the game seemed like it was designed with each player having thier own deck, and then later in the design phase all the cards were merged into one deck but not all of the cards were changed. It was a while ago tho so I couldn't tell you exactly what cards were making me feel this.


You're obviously a thoughtful gamer, so I hope you'll give it another try, perhaps with an experienced player. We may not agree on all games, but I can tell you I've now logged DOZENS of plays of this game, and it never feels underdesigned or misguided, and it's theme rich in relation to the mechanics.

It's also serving me as an excellent intro to wargaming, though I know it's no asl or the like. I tend to enjoy crossovers.

I'm also not clear why it's on the list, but it ain't my list!
 
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  • Posted Wed Nov 1, 2006 12:14 pm
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13. Board Game: Catan: Cities & Knights [Average Rating:7.54 Unranked] [Average Rating:7.54 Unranked]
Matt Thrower
United Kingdom
Bath
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#13 : Cities & Knights of Catan
Ratings: 7
Average: 7.79


If Ameritrash gamers like Settlers and they like conflict then it's hardly any wonder this makes it higher up the list than the parent game. Me, I always thought that nicking vital intersections off other players was conflict enough but maybe I'm just a wuss.
 
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Robert Martin
United States
Atlanta
Georgia
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Have you tried Cities & Knights? It's evil. I love it.
 
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  • Posted Mon Oct 30, 2006 4:26 pm
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David
Canada

Ontario
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I can't play without this expansion anymore but it does add a good amount of time to the game. Then again, we used to use all 3 expansions, create the biggest rectangular board the frames allow and randomly throw down a mix of tiles, vreating a freaky different landscape everytime.

But the rules definately turn this into a whole new game, although a nastier one.
 
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  • Posted Tue Oct 31, 2006 3:00 am
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Needle
Australia
Leichhardt
NSW
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Quote:
I believe the consensus is that it adds around another hour to play time. Although I have to point out that if you think Settlers is long enough as is, you're a bit out of place on an Ameritrash list!


Oh no my credibility is in question-ummm-lets put it this way for two and half hours (Soc and C&K) I'd rather play Warrior Knights. And put it this way I'm dying to play a game of Blood Royale and ummm-can I stay on the list now
 
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  • Posted Tue Oct 31, 2006 3:12 am
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Paul Szilagyi
United States
Parma
Ohio
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Cities and Knights took a great (yes, great) Euro-game in Settlers, and added MUCH more conflict, theme, interaction, scope, and conflict.

The best of all possible Settlers variants, in my opinion.

 
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  • Posted Tue Oct 31, 2006 10:28 am
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David T.
United States
Falls Church
Virginia
This game is superior.

With competent opponents, this game has the screw-you factor that we as a gaming group enjoy. There is ample opportunity to screw or slow down the leader by using knights to block expansion and versatile cards to inhibit or destroy growth. The development cardsfrom Settlers have been replaced with more useful ones - and that means you can adapt your strategy as you go along, which will be necessary if you get in the lead and everyone else comes after you.

This game is da bomb.
 
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  • Posted Tue Oct 31, 2006 5:37 pm
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14. Board Game: Titan [Average Rating:7.08 Overall Rank:317]
Matt Thrower
United Kingdom
Bath
Somerset
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#12 : Titan
Ratings: 6
Average: 7.83


An undisputed Ameritrash classic and my all-time favourite game. I think this would rate higher if more people had played it - you AT badgeholders who've not rated it, get playing Colossus, the lot of you!
 
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Rusty Ballinger
United States
Arcata
California
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MattDP wrote:
An undisputed Ameritrash classic

I thought some people were saying plastic is one of the defining characteristics of "ameritrash." (Maybe those people consider Titan a borderline case? I don't know.)
 
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  • Posted Mon Oct 30, 2006 12:30 pm
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Nicholas Jost
United States
Fresno
California
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Titan is not a game. It is an exercise in gaming hell.
 
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  • Posted Thu Nov 2, 2006 5:07 pm
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Darrell Hanning
United States
Jacksonville
Florida
Love women in action movies and shows. It all started with Diana Rigg, in the Avengers.
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Matt, if I have set myself up as an exception, it is as an exception in the sense of not creating new schisms, not endorsing any of the schisms, but also not willing to look the other way while one group accuses another of the very thing the former group is exercising in making the accusations. There was very much more than one way for the "Ameritrash" "movement" to manifest itself, and the way that was chosen (and not particularly or even largely by you) was about the "snootiest" possible. That is the childlike response of throwing a fit because another child is throwing a fit, rather than demonstrating how not throwing a fit is a better way to handle things.

To be honest, I didn't even notice you as being a vocal element in that movement, and - based on the intelligent and thoughtful input you have had on many occasions - was rather surprised to see you pick up the banner, so to speak.

I, too, would hate to have a falling out, over this, but the more vehemently you defend group B of being innocent of that with which you charge group A, when both groups are equally guilty, the more difficult it is for me to rationalize your choices. Indeed, group B is arguably more guilty, for having already seen what they consider wrong-doings by the original group, yet still choosing essentially the same course.

I'll put it the way I put it in a forum you started the other day, and was directed to you:

"There is already too much of "us vs. them" in the world, and the last, damn place I want to see such tiny-minded crap is in my hobby. I'm not talking about you, in particular, but the gears set in motion by any act of arbitrary polarization, one intent of which is to say that some people are not capable of deciding what is "fun", and therefore must be told by others what is "fun" (and thus what is "not fun"). Decide for yourself, share why you think so, but when tempted to pass judgement on the fun had by others, kindly shut the hell up."

And none of the passing of judgement has been more overt and rabid than it has in the postings of some of the Ameritrashers, and I'm not talking about you. But if you willingly carry their banner...

To my mind, that statement in bold not only goes for Ameritrashers and Eurosnoots alike, but for all of us.
 
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  • Posted Fri Nov 3, 2006 5:29 pm
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Ken Bradford
United States
Fayetteville
Tennessee
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Darrell, please check your post for inconsistencies... pleading for Matt to avoid the "us vs. them" mentality, but then suggest that if he "carries their banner, well..."

You are seeing an attempt to divide where there is none. I only seek to define, not divide.

I like games of *all kinds*. Please give my profile a quick glance to verify my ownership of several Euros (and my propensity to rate games highly regardless of genre).

If you are seeing 'rabid' behavior, it has been instigated. Why do people care if another group of people discuss/define their interests? Why should this bother you?

The better question, why on earth would you presume this would lead to a "falling out" with someone? Politics, sure. Religion, yeah. But boardgames? Wow.
 
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  • Posted Fri Nov 3, 2006 5:49 pm
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Darrell Hanning
United States
Jacksonville
Florida
Love women in action movies and shows. It all started with Diana Rigg, in the Avengers.
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Quote:
Darrell, please check your post for inconsistencies... pleading for Matt to avoid the "us vs. them" mentality, but then suggest that if he "carries their banner, well..."

You are seeing an attempt to divide where there is none. I only seek to define, not divide.

I like games of *all kinds*. Please give my profile a quick glance to verify my ownership of several Euros (and my propensity to rate games highly regardless of genre).

If you are seeing 'rabid' behavior, it has been instigated. Why do people care if another group of people discuss/define their interests? Why should this bother you?

The better question, why on earth would you presume this would lead to a "falling out" with someone? Politics, sure. Religion, yeah. But boardgames? Wow.


Ken, not really inconsistent at all. If you're going to root a weed out of your yard, are you going to burn the whole yard, or identify the weeds, in order to only remove them?

Don't know why you feel the imperative to defend yourself - I wasn't addressing you. Or are you looking at the shirt you got handed, and put on without thinking?

If you actually read what I wrote, then you know I have no concerns with people discussing or defining their interests - just concerns with those who feel it necessary to define those of others in a derogatory fashion, or feeling it their responsibility to define "fun" for everyone else. Guess you missed that part. Feel free to review.

While you're at it, review Matt's statement to which I responded - that was where the idea of "falling out" was initiated, not by me.

To wit (and not a quote of Matt, certainly):

Quote:
Well, I kinda think any game that the Eurosnoots decry for whatever reason (complexity, art, theme, too much fun to play) almost deserves to be included in the canon.


Yes, let's all politely chuckle, and write it off as someone having "fun" with the topic - even when it happens for the fifteenth or sixteenth time. By all means, look away if you will.

To me, that's a weed, and too many of them make the whole, damn yard look ugly.






 
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  • Posted Fri Nov 3, 2006 8:19 pm
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15. Board Game: Memoir '44 [Average Rating:7.56 Overall Rank:61]
Matt Thrower
United Kingdom
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#11 : Memoir '44
Ratings: 11
Average: 7.91


According to my diagram, light wargames such as this help bridge the gap between Wargames and Ameritrash and this great little title is squarely on the AT side of the triangle. The plastic toy factor definitely helps too.
 
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16. Board Game: Power Grid [Average Rating:8.09 Overall Rank:5]
Matt Thrower
United Kingdom
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#10 : Power Grid
Ratings: 9
Average: 7.94


The top ten opens with this popular Euro title. Since I've never played the game I can't comment on what makes this a winner with the AT group, but the consensus on it's brilliance makes me want to ensure I get a game to find out!
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Michael Buccheri
United States
Glen Arm
Maryland
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For me this is a great euro. The theme is there and fits well, I would not call it think, but it works. The game play is interesting in that there is a lot you can do to stop other players and the win condition, powering the most cities on the turn the game end is triggered is great. ITs not just running a score in generic VP's. The end of this game needs to be planned for and other will and can do things to ruin it for you.

-M
 
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  • Posted Mon Oct 30, 2006 2:05 pm
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Michael Barnes
United States
Decatur
Georgia
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This is also a good example of how an auction can be _good_. I think it's when we run into games where auctioning and bidding are the chief action that it's really trouble.
 
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  • Posted Mon Oct 30, 2006 4:42 pm
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Tom Hancock
United States
Charleston
West Virginia
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This is on my wishlist, and seeing my fellow ameritrash lovers all over it makes me want to move it up and suggest it to santa claus (aka el jefe grande, aka my wife)
 
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  • Posted Mon Oct 30, 2006 9:06 pm
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Darrell Hanning
United States
Jacksonville
Florida
Love women in action movies and shows. It all started with Diana Rigg, in the Avengers.
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Quote:
This is also a good example of how an auction can be _good_. I think it's when we run into games where auctioning and bidding are the chief action that it's really trouble.


Oh, you mean like Ra, which you rate an 8?
 
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  • Posted Tue Oct 31, 2006 2:10 pm
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Michael Barnes
United States
Decatur
Georgia
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Ra was also on my list of "20 Eurogame That I Love"- its definitely a rarity.
 
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  • Posted Tue Oct 31, 2006 3:13 pm
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Ken Bradford
United States
Fayetteville
Tennessee
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I rate Ra a 10, yo. If all Euros were this good, well...I wouldn't need Ameritrash.

Ah, who am I kidding--PASS ME THE PLASTIC DEMON DOGS, I GOT SOME KILLIN' TA DO
 
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  • Posted Tue Oct 31, 2006 6:51 pm
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17. Board Game: Nexus Ops [Average Rating:7.27 Overall Rank:173]
Matt Thrower
United Kingdom
Bath
Somerset
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#9 : Nexus Ops
Ratings: 8
Average: 8.0


No surprises here. This title is often considered the yardstick by which other modern AT titles are measured.
 
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Michael Barnes
United States
Decatur
Georgia
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I've come to believe that this game is the Kwitsatz Haderach of AT design...it's a big, baroque AT style game streamlined to the point where it's almost elemental. Absolutely brilliant example of how a game doesn't have to be sprawling and bloated to capture the essence of AT-style gaming.
 
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  • Posted Mon Oct 30, 2006 4:41 pm
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M C
United States
Orem
Utah
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I like how it can be easily handicapped. When I played my sons, ages 6 and 9, I gave the six year old two extra VPs at the beginning of the game, and my nine-year-old 1 VP (mistake) and we played to 10 points. The nine-year-old took it, just before I was able to fly my two dragons off the monolith and onto his under-guarded home base for the win.

I'd also been playing it wrong, not realizing that only humanoids can produce from the mines, an important rule.
 
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  • Posted Mon Oct 30, 2006 4:59 pm
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Thee Insidius Doktor Glaze & His Sidekick Donut Boy with the Amazing Monkeytime Dancers Ooh!
United States
Shorewood
Wisconsin
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I've come to believe that this game is the Kwitsatz Haderach of AT design


Nexus Ops IS the essence of Ameritrash... Ameritrash IS the essence of Nexus Ops... THE SLEEPER MUST AWAKEN!
 
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  • Posted Mon Oct 30, 2006 6:07 pm
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Jeremy Kalgreen
United States
Columbus
OH
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I think this game alone justifies Avalon Hillsbro existence, despite 'Sword & Skull' and 'Rocketville'.

 
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  • Posted Tue Oct 31, 2006 7:46 am
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18. Board Game: Fury of Dracula [Average Rating:7.29 Overall Rank:165]
Matt Thrower
United Kingdom
Bath
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#8 : Fury of Dracula
Ratings: 7
Average: 8.04


FFG strike again with another undisputed modern ameritrash masterpiece. For those interested the older printing of this didn't get enough votes to make the list - but those who did rate it gave it a whopping average of 9.67.
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Robert Martin
United States
Atlanta
Georgia
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And amazingly it got even more Ameritrashy in its new incarnation.
 
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  • Posted Mon Oct 30, 2006 7:21 pm
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David
Canada

Ontario
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I think they did a good compromise here.

Player Elimination is a pretty bad thing usually. Having someone sit out for like 2 hours is not a recipe for a long fun filled night of gaming.

In this case, we instead get a fairly brutal penalty for death. You put your team 1/3rd of the way towards losing and your now a pathetic, equipmentless kitten just waiting for Dracula to desend upon you again and break you like the twig you are.
 
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  • Posted Mon Oct 30, 2006 10:18 pm
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robin goblin
Canada
Toronto
Ontario
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Typical imperialists! This is a UK game, part of the GW tradition, nothing American about it, yet you come up with a name 'Ameriscuzz' and then pretend other people's games are 'Americgarbage'....
 
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  • Posted Tue Oct 31, 2006 2:42 am
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David
Canada

Ontario
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Where have you been?

Ameritrash doesn't mean American. It refers to a style or type of game. There's plenty of Ameritrash games that aren't produced or designed by americans.
 
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  • Posted Tue Oct 31, 2006 3:03 am
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robin goblin
Canada
Toronto
Ontario
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It was a *joke* David. A joke.... shake
 
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  • Posted Tue Oct 31, 2006 2:02 pm
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19. Board Game: Twilight Imperium (third edition) [Average Rating:7.83 Overall Rank:25]
Matt Thrower
United Kingdom
Bath
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#7 : Twilight Imperium 3
Ratings: 9
Average: 8.06


Another FFG game, another AT classic. But could this be the game some of you were expecting to see at #1?
 
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Jeremy Kalgreen
United States
Columbus
OH
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For me this game is just bubbling over with the sense of possibility. Looking through the races, perusing the tech tree, so on and so forth, everything about it just screams 'Wow, I can't wait to try out xxx or yyy next!'

 
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  • Posted Tue Oct 31, 2006 7:43 am
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Dan
Canada

Alberta
Yeah... I see what you did there.
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I know people who hate this game because the "can't memorize the action deck". Whaaaaah! shake
 
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  • Posted Mon May 17, 2010 11:49 pm
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Dan
Canada

Alberta
Yeah... I see what you did there.
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I know people who hate this game because the "can't memorize the action deck". Whaaaaah! shake
 
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  • Posted Mon May 17, 2010 11:49 pm
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20. Board Game: Commands & Colors: Ancients [Average Rating:7.90 Overall Rank:21]
Matt Thrower
United Kingdom
Bath
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#6 : Commands & Colours: Ancients
Ratings: 6
Average: 8.25


The position of this compared to Memoir is proof, if any were needed, that AT fans are proper gamers at heart who'll pick a better game over plastic toys when the chips are down. I'm still surprised to see this quite so high up though - a copy is winging it's way to me as I type.
 
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Michael Barnes
United States
Decatur
Georgia
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You're in for a treat, Matt...this is the best Command and Colors game yet. M44 had a weird disconnect between the mechanics and the reality of WWII-style combat, but this one works together perfectly- it's that theme/mechanics symmetry AT'ers love.

I expect Battlelore will be up here with it before long.
 
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  • Posted Mon Oct 30, 2006 4:44 pm
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Matt Thrower
United Kingdom
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Quote:
I expect Battlelore will be up here with it before long.


Having bought this, there's a part of me that hopes it turns out to be crap
 
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  • Posted Mon Oct 30, 2006 5:51 pm
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Michael Barnes
United States
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I dunno man...I was afraid Battlelore would be a step down from Ancients but it looks like a step up. Still, there's room in my collection for both since I love ancients-era battles and fantasy junk.
 
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  • Posted Mon Oct 30, 2006 6:44 pm
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David
Canada

Ontario
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Battlelore's begging to look to me like they took C&C:A and Ameritrashed it in all the right ways. They keep all the stuff that makes it interesting and much more strategic and tactical then M44. Then they throw on the War Council, which just adds awesome units and abilities. Throw in a fantasy theme and DoW-style (ie - top quality) components and presentation and you have an Ameritrash/Light Wargame hybrid legend in the making.
 
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  • Posted Tue Oct 31, 2006 12:13 am
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21. Board Game: Hammer of the Scots [Average Rating:7.66 Overall Rank:83]
Matt Thrower
United Kingdom
Bath
Somerset
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#5 : Hammer of the Scots
Ratings: 6
Average: 8.25


Now this did come as a surprise. This title could be classified as a "proper" wargame and if you accept that it's the highest of that breed on the list. I'd have thought that other block wargames would've appealed to the AT mentality more than this - Wizard Kings, Victory, maybe even the Eurofront titles.
 
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Michael Barnes
United States
Decatur
Georgia
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Hammer got the most press...and it's a better game than Wizard Kings.
 
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  • Posted Mon Oct 30, 2006 4:25 pm
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22. Board Game: War of the Ring [Average Rating:7.92 Overall Rank:16]
Matt Thrower
United Kingdom
Bath
Somerset
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#3 (Tie) : War of the Ring
Ratings: 8
Average: 8.31


Amazingly this is the highest entry that FFG have on the list, and maybe this is another game people might expect to see at the number one spot. Still, it's made the top three. Perhaps it's two-player only format limits the appeal.
 
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Tom Hancock
United States
Charleston
West Virginia
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Some of the best of the new ameritrash in my opinion. Further proof that you don't have to be american to be ameritrashy!
 
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  • Posted Mon Oct 30, 2006 3:46 pm
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Michael Barnes
United States
Decatur
Georgia
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The game really creates a sense of narrative- it's not just a territorial control thing at all. It tells a story...and sometimes the Shadow wins!
 
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  • Posted Mon Oct 30, 2006 6:46 pm
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Henri Huttunen
Finland
Helsinki
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You won't regret it if it does. I rarely get to play 1vs1 games, since on our gaming nights there are usually always 3 to 5 people around and we like to get games where everyone fits aboard, but when I do get a chance to play this, well, it's fantastic. I have never regreted having bought it, even if I only get to play it around 5 times a year!
 
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  • Posted Mon Oct 30, 2006 7:17 pm
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Tom Hancock
United States
Charleston
West Virginia
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Technically, there are 3 and 4 player rules, but they seem a little bit pasted on. Basically, you divide up the available factions. I can see how they work, but who really wants to play as the southron pirates and elephants while your buddy is controlling the hordes of sauron and using nazghul to make hobbit kabobs out of the fellowship? Probably best as a 1 on 1 though I'd consider using the 3 or 4 player rules as a teaching mechanism.
 
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  • Posted Mon Oct 30, 2006 9:18 pm
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Matt Thrower
United Kingdom
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I think the fact that they passed over the potential of using Saurman as a genuine third player for this is a missed opportunity. If I ever do get a copy I might just sit down and try and sketch out a variant along those very lines.
 
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  • Posted Tue Oct 31, 2006 9:22 am
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23. Board Game: Tigris & Euphrates [Average Rating:7.89 Overall Rank:15]
Matt Thrower
United Kingdom
Bath
Somerset
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#3 (Tie): Tigris & Euphrates
Ratings: 8
Average: 8.31


While there's much here that might seem unappealing to the AT fan this isn't known as the gamers game for nothing. It seems to have amazingly wide appeal and the weight really seems to hit the sweet spot as being involving enough for most players without being too daunting.
 
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Ken Bradford
United States
Fayetteville
Tennessee
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This is a good game that has conflict-driven gameplay coupled with heavy screw your neighbor aspects--"Why did you create an external conflict between me and Steve?!? Why, I oughta..."

But the rules don't get in the way, which is a plus. Not frilly light like many Euros, but not so steeped in rules that it becomes an exercise in consulting charts rather than getting to the heart of the game. Nice.
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  • Posted Mon Oct 30, 2006 4:17 pm
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Dominic Crapuchettes
United States
Bethesda
MD
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No plastic bits?!! No monsters? No player elimination? No dripping with theme?!!! I am really disappointed in my AT friends for choosing this game as their third favorite game.

shake

Instead of oozing with fun, I get abstract tiles on a grid, abstract theme, and little colored wooden cubes to represent all of my epic conquering. What do each of the colors of wooden cubes represent again? Oh yes, I won in farming, trading, and government but I lost the game because I only had three cubes worth of religion. I should have known that my civilization would not stand the test of time unless I got an equal amount of each of the colored wooden cubes.

Am I'm missing something when this seems like pure EuroSnoot mental exercise for the sake of mental exercise?
 
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  • Posted Tue Oct 31, 2006 7:43 am
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Will DeMorris
United States
El Paso
Texas
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Quote:
Am I'm missing something when this seems like pure EuroSnoot mental exercise for the sake of mental exercise?


I'm rather suprised at this game's presence on the list as well. I consider this game to be about as un-Ameritrashy as you could get.

-Will
 
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  • Posted Tue Oct 31, 2006 3:43 pm
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Ken Bradford
United States
Fayetteville
Tennessee
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It's here because it's a rare bird--it's an "In yer face" Euro.

You can't sit on your side of the board and build up your little kingdom and then compare scores at the end. You start doing that, you're going to get crosshairs drawn at your noggin.

I've found--at least for some ATers--that we have a soft spot for some of Reiner's better designs. As you've seen with Ra above, and LOTR, and now T&E.
 
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  • Posted Tue Oct 31, 2006 6:53 pm
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24. Board Game: Catan Card Game [Average Rating:6.91 Overall Rank:348]
Matt Thrower
United Kingdom
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#2 : Settlers of Catan Card Game
Ratings: 6
Average: 8.33


Wuh? I stand amazed!
 
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Miguel de la Casa
Spain
Madrid
Madrid
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Yeap! This is a really big surprise.
 
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  • Posted Mon Oct 30, 2006 12:47 pm
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Michael Barnes
United States
Decatur
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No surprise- this is a great game. It has a stronger theme and much more direct competition than its parent game and if you catch me in the right mood I'll tell you that I like it better. This game has a lot of options, a real sense of development, and some great punch-counterpunch mechanics that make it completely accessible and appealing to the AT gamer.
 
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  • Posted Mon Oct 30, 2006 4:10 pm
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John Lopez
United States
Tucson
Arizona
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The explanation: Impossible Triangle + TW (my company initials) = my logo.
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Considering it is better than the parent game, the rating shouldn't surprise. Fewer have it, but those who do realize that the original should have been like this.
 
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  • Posted Mon Oct 30, 2006 6:29 pm
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Robert Martin
United States
Atlanta
Georgia
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It is when you add Cities & Knights (which I think is the pinnacle of the Settlers experience).
 
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  • Posted Mon Oct 30, 2006 7:23 pm
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Will DeMorris
United States
El Paso
Texas
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Not suprising as I think this is better than basic SoC. Great theme, direct conflict and manageable playtime.

Quote:
It is when you add Cities & Knights (which I think is the pinnacle of the Settlers experience).


Quite possibly true, but many (including me) consider Cities and Knights to be an almost entirely different game. Hence, why I say that SoC: The Card Game is better than basic SoC.
 
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  • Posted Tue Oct 31, 2006 3:50 pm
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25. Board Game: Dune [Average Rating:7.63 Overall Rank:88]
Matt Thrower
United Kingdom
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#1 : Dune
Ratings: 6
Average: 8.67


Not the game I expected to see at number one, but a worthy game to hold that spot nevertheless - and it beats it's competitors by a healthy margin too. As others have said this design was years ahead of it's time, as demonstrated by it's continued presence as the lone flag-bearer for 70's games in the BGG top 50.
 
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  • 14 comments [Hide]
Jeremy Kalgreen
United States
Columbus
OH
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Exactly what I woulda guessed would be at number one.

I was actually going to request that one of the well known AT Stalwarts create a 'top 10 essential AT games' geeklist, so I know what I should eventually try to collect.

I just assumed Dune would top out that list, and when trying to guess what might be on it: Titan, Fury of Dracula, some Gamemaster titles (probably Shogun and Fortress America), and of course Twilight Imperium. That's about all I was be sure of, but perhaps I've been over ranking the essentiality of the Gamemaster games =\

 
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  • Posted Mon Oct 30, 2006 11:20 am
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robin goblin
Canada
Toronto
Ontario
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Another game that was a wargame when it came out, was played by wargamers....this whole trish-trash thing pretends these old games weren't wargames for ideological purposes...
 
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  • Posted Tue Oct 31, 2006 2:46 am
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David
Canada

Ontario
mb
Wargame? Yes.
ConSim? Not by a long shot.

See my post in the comments at the bottom for a better explanation of what I'm talking about.
 
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  • Posted Tue Oct 31, 2006 3:05 am
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Dominic Crapuchettes
United States
Bethesda
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I know this list is not supposed to be about recommending AT classics, but I'm excited to try this game the next chance I get.

Thanks for a great read!
 
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  • Posted Tue Oct 31, 2006 7:57 am
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robin goblin
Canada
Toronto
Ontario
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Who called it a consim????
 
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  • Posted Tue Oct 31, 2006 2:03 pm
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48 comments [Hide]
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Jeremy Kalgreen
United States
Columbus
OH
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Several of the classic AT games I haven't gotten to play, and thus went unrated on my list. But everything I've read about Dune and Titan lead me to believe they would be right up my alley, even if they aren't right up my budget =)
 
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  • Posted Mon Oct 30, 2006 11:14 am
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Ken Bradford
United States
Fayetteville
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Randy, personally I think sports games/sims are sort of their own genre.

What you describe as "Ameritras"--plastic, theme, FFG--is very much in line with how I view it. Now,whether you hear those as good or bad...
 
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  • Posted Wed Nov 1, 2006 11:53 pm
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Darren M
New Zealand
Nelson
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I've read through the various geeklists and read a lot of posts and there are a lot of valid points and interesting arguments. I've come up with my own pyramid that pretty much summarizes my views on the subject:

1 
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  • Posted Thu Nov 2, 2006 6:07 am
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Paul Boos
Spain
Falls Church
Virginia
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I like Darren's diagram...

I could even simplify it more:

Games I like
|
|
Other boxes of stuff pretending to be games...
 
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  • Posted Thu Nov 2, 2006 4:44 pm
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arif ally
United States
Kissimmee
Florida
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OMG almost every game on this list I own or thought about getting. Well they say admitting you have a problem is the first step to recovery.
 
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  • Posted Fri Sep 21, 2007 5:50 am
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