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Euro vs. Ameri??
Steven Johnson
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I'm just getting back into serious gaming after a long hiatus devoted to computer gaming. In other words, my kids are old enough to leave a game set up for extended sessions, and my game room has a door to keep out the cat.

The terms "Eurogames" and "Ameritrash" are bandied about constantly. Could we have some definitions of the terms, with games used as examples?

Keep it friendly!!!!!!!!!!
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Posted Sun Nov 5, 2006 2:56 pm
1. Board Game: Puerto Rico [Average Rating:8.32 Overall Rank:2]
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Tom Rosen
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Classic Example of a "Euro" game

Common features of "Euro" games:
-Little to no luck
-Victory points determine winner
-Theme is not very important
-Designer's name is very important
-Components made of wood
-90 minute playing time
Dan Rosewater
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Quote:
Theme is not very important

I disagree. It it were so, then Eurogames were all abstract.
I cannot figure out to play Puerto Rico or Caylus without their theme. However I admit that there are Euros with a very thin theme (so called "pasted on") like RA, but that doesn't mean that all Euros are designed like that. On the other hand one could say that the game mechanism is important while this seems to fit on all games.
Tom Rosen
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What I meant Dan is that people often don't choose what "Euro" game to buy based on the theme. Sometimes you might, but often I choose what "Euro" game to buy based on the gameplay, mechanics, designer's name, awards, etc. It doesn't really matter to me if it's about Samurais in Japan, building pyramids in Egypt, the Italian Renaissance, or trains in the US. In contrast, wargamers especially seem to want to a game with a certain theme, like they'll want a game about WWII or one about the US Civil War, etc. There are obviously exceptions, it's just a general observation of mine.
Gláucio Reis
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I know I can be considered an exception, but I'm mostly an eurogamer, and theme is very important to me. Maybe that's the reason I don't care much about "Puerto Rico" (boring theme). I will always be more tempted to buy a game if it has a theme that interests me, especially fantasy and sci-fi. And I very much prefer beautiful plastic miniatures to dull wooden pieces.
Dan Rosewater
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Tom I now understand what you like to emphasize.
A Eurogamer wants to buy a new game, so he is looking which one has good reviews, he is willing to accept a variety of themes as long as the game is good.
A Wargamer wants a game about the Battle of Stalingrad 1799 and nothing else. Historical accuracy is important. That's ok.
But with your examples Puerto Rico and Nexus Ops you compare Eurogames to Amerigames and not Eurogames to Wargames.
Why is the theme in Nexus Ops considered stronger than in Puerto Rico?
Paul Boos
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I know I look at theme when I buy a Eurogame - although I don't expec it to be necessarily carried trhough entirely in the bits (the playing pieces) and chrome (meaning the game mechnics). I added the abbreviated definitions so our friend who sarted this list wouldn't have to look them up...

I do think the Amerigames put theme on a bit more thick, but not a ton more - only wargames seem to do so.
Philip Thomas
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No player elimination is another general feature.
90 minutes is the most common playing time, but it can easily be shorter (Carcassonne) or longer (Die Macher).
2. Board Game: Nexus Ops [Average Rating:7.23 Overall Rank:152]
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Tom Rosen
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Classic Example of an "American" game

Common features of "American" games:
-Dice (more luck than "Euro" games)
-Theme is important to players
-Designer's name is not as important
-Components are often made of plastic, not wood
-Usually much longer playing times (although Nexus Ops is an exception)
-Often involve player elimination, which "euro" gams do not
Gláucio Reis
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And here it is a case where I was totally seduced by the theme and miniatures. I had to buy this. I don't think it's a good example of "classic American game", though. It has a few features of eurogames: simple rules, no player elimination, resource management, victory points, catch-up mechanic (compensation for losing battles) and, as you mentioned, short playing time.
Rusty Ballinger
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And to hit the one point GSReis didn't :), this doesn't seem to me to be a very good example of a game where theme is important. We're what now? Mercenary corporations? This green stuff is what? Liquifungus forest? Oh, who cares, dude, let's fight!
Michael Debije
Netherlands
Eindhoven
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In my mind, a 'classic' American game has no silly plastic. It has cardboard chits, with attack and defense values, or range factors, strength, whatever printed on them. Plastic comes from the more modern, easier games like Axis and Allies or Nexus Ops. I make it a practice not to purchase anything with silly plastic parts- the only exceptions I can think of are the old Warrior Knights and Blood Royale from Games Workshop, and I got Tyros (because Wallace made it) and Hellas (because it was 5 Euros).
Philip Thomas
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Yeah, this is the problem with using "American" rather than the other term.

The games you're tallking about are grognard games. They are mostly produced in america, of course. The "Ameribleep" movement is not so much about grognardgames, and more about the "more modern" games you mention.

Of course, Axis and Allies came out in the 80s. Its modern in comparison to 70s wargames, sure, but to a eurogamer it looks old.:)
3. Board Game: Memoir '44 [Average Rating:7.59 Overall Rank:47]
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Steven Johnson
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Which category would Memoir '44 fit in?
Plastic mini's
Simple rules with illustrations
Fast playing times
Luxurious components
Major designer name

It is a wargame, but definately not the James Dunnigan classic style of the 70's!
Tom Rosen
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I can't say for sure because I've never played Memoir '44, but it seems to me like it definitely crosses over categories with elements of different styles of games combined into one.
Phillip Heaton
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The fact that is uses dice, and lots of them, seems to put it on the Amerigames side.
Tom Hancock
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I think this game is part ameritrash, with a little wargame thrown in. The only thing it has in common with euros is simplicity, but a lot of AT is simple too.
4. Board Game: Fifth Avenue [Average Rating:6.17 Overall Rank:1380]
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Michael Barnes
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OK, for the last time...here's an example (check the next item as well).

Building New York in a fairly abstract, mechanical fashion with an auction or two? Euro.
Rusty Ballinger
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crackedlcd81 wrote:
OK, for the last time

This site needs a delighted-by-the-concept-but-somewhat-doubtful-about-the-execution emoticon.
Michael Barnes
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You sure take things seriously for a clown...
Rusty Ballinger
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Clown?? Are you making fun of my deformity?!

(You have to admit, that emoticon would be useful for a lot of games. In fact, BGG should ditch the numeric ratings entirely and just move to an all-emoticon system. Knowing that 70% of people rate Nexus Ops :p, and that Caylus is rated mostly :cry: and robot, might help people find the kinds of games they enjoy, and it would certainly eliminate any weirdness resulting from people feeling like the games they prefer aren't rated highly enough.)
Michael Barnes
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Ah, see, now we're back on track...jokey sparring back and forth...this is what it was all about to begin with. No hard feelings, no discussions about "ontology" or how horrible all games are...
5. Board Game: Escape from New York [Average Rating:5.32 Overall Rank:4770]
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Michael Barnes
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Escaping New York with an eye patch wearin', Mac-10 toting, supposed-to-be-dead bada$$ named Snake Plissken? AMERITRASH!
Michael Buccheri
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Funny, I thought this game was dead.

-M
12 comments [Hide]
Michael Buccheri
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Eurogames are what this site is mostly about. They are best defined as light to med weight family games that focus on the game mechanics and have a lightly applied theme.

For example games like:
Puerto Rico
El Grande
The Princes of Florence
Ra
Carcassonne

The term Ameritrash is rather new, and is really a reaction to the eurogame fams attitude to older American style games than a real game category. American style board games usually are old games that were developed pre 1990's that focus more on theme and less on the game mechanics. They tend to be longer and more involved than the average eurogame.

examples are:
Rail Baron
Axis & Allies
Dune
Twilight Imperium 3rd Edition


in addition to this you could also say there is a under represented selection conflict simulation games as well.
these are the classic and newer generation "war" games. Hex and counter games, card driven strategy games etc.

Advanced Tobruk
Advanced Squad Leader - Starter Kit #1
For the People
Wilderness War
And even some monsters like:
World in Flames

There are lots og games to choose from and every group has its good and bad. Your selection depends on what it is you want to do, how much time you have to devote tot he game, and who you have to play games with.


-M
Michael Buccheri
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For the record, the "Trash" part of ameritrash is not meant to be bad. At least not to Ameritrash badge holders and fans. It reflects the fact that most users here find these games not to their liking, however ameritrash fans love them.

-M
Rusty Ballinger
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malloc wrote:
For the record, the "Trash" part of ameritrash is not meant to be bad. At least not to Ameritrash badge holders and fans.

Gamer: Hey, my friends and I have been playing your game a lot lately. It's total ameritrash!
Designer: Uhh... what?
Gamer: No no, that means we like it! See, on BoardGameGeek, "trash" means "good."
Designer: Does it.
Gamer: Yeah! Well... OK, to some of us. Everyone else still uses it to mean, you know, "trash," but I'm saying your game is trash in a good way.
Paul Boos
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OK - to sort of get the list back on track some...

Our friend here is looking for help in trying to identify what games he may like - not starting a debate per se...

I think pointing out games that are available and fit the "types" may be the best thing we can do.

So here is my suggestion if trying to go back into the recesses of your brain is a little difficult right now...

Get one game of each. The expense won't be that much...

My Ameritrash err... Amerigame suggestions: Nexus Ops or Betrayal at the House on the Hill (since they seemed to be discounted right now as Avalon Hill discontinues this line)

My Eurogame suggestions: Carcassonne or Settlers of Catan

All of these are easily accessible games and will give you a lot replayability. The Euros here have expansions that allow you to grow the games into more complex games as well.

For a game that is in between the two (which would also be a good cross-over type experiment for yourself) - I suggest Pirate's Cove.

After this, you may find one variety or the other suits you more. Although I will admit it is really hard to judge an entire variety with one or two games. But at least you can see some fundamental differences.

BTW, I own all of these games, so that is why I confidently recommend them...

Cheers!
Paul
Michael Buccheri
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Quote:


Gamer: Hey, my friends and I have been playing your game a lot lately. It's total ameritrash!
Designer: Uhh... what?
Gamer: No no, that means we like it! See, on BoardGameGeek, "trash" means "good."
Designer: Does it.
Gamer: Yeah! Well... OK, to some of us. Everyone else still uses it to mean, you know, "trash," but I'm saying your game is trash in a good way.


Yeah, Sarcasm is such a high concept. I have a hard time with it myself.

-M
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