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Super Fillers for 2
Tom Rosen
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su·per ('sü-p&r) adjective - exhibiting the characteristics of its type to an extreme or excessive degree

fill·er ('fi-l&r) noun - a piece used to cover or fill in a space between two parts of a structure; material used to fill extra space

Super Filler - Coined and defined by Mike Siggins in the Gamer's Notebook on October 25, 2006:

Mike Siggins - Gamer's Notebook - October 25, 2006 wrote:
The Super Filler is really a subtype of game that I used to call The Middleweight. It is more than a 20 or 30 minute starter, but it does not amount to a main course in weight or play length. The game is 'straight in,' has plenty of decisions, a fair amount of depth, but importantly it is very quick to play. Almost always under an hour, and leaving you feeling as if you have played for longer. In many ways it is an important species of German Game because it can avoid many of the traps – too light, too random, too boring – and appeals to most types of player. And those that don’t like it can see that it won’t last that long. A typical Super Filler is Mykerinos. I would put Yspahan, Taluva and Gheos in the same group.


I am on a quest to find an elusive subtype of this subtype of game, specifically Super Fillers that are best suited for 2 players. I want to find Super Fillers that are great for 2 players, not games that simply work for 2 players. This quest began after trying the "typical Super Filler" Mykerinos and finding that even though it is a good game, the two-player version did not appeal to me due to the "artificial third player" rule (also seen in Alhambra, Acquire, and Louis XIV). Consequently, I want to find other typical Super Fillers, but only those that shine as two-player games. As Mike explained, these should be games that take around 45 minutes to play, and certainly no more than 60 minutes.

In order to provide a little more guidance and help find games that do qualify, I will elaborate on what games do not qualify.

First, the ideal Super Filler for 2 players should be heavier (i.e., longer and more complex) than all of the following great light games for 2 players: Lost Cities, Balloon Cup, Odin's Ravens, StreetSoccer, Fjords, Can't Stop, Travel Blokus, Pingvinas (also known as Hey That's My Fish), and even Lord of the Rings: Confrontation (although I think that last one almost qualifies as a Super Filler if you each play both sides).

Second, the ideal Super Filler for 2 players should be lighter (i.e., shorter and less complex) than all of the following great heavy games for 2 players: Caylus, Goa, Tigris & Euphrates, Java, Puerto Rico, and even Louis XIV (although I think that last one almost qualifies as a Super Filler if you play quick enough).

Thus, Lord of the Rings: Confrontation and Louis XIV exemplify the outer limits of the Super Filler genre at the light and heavy ends of the spectrum respectively.

Third, examples of good Super Fillers that require (or are better with) more than 2 players include: China, Mykerinos, Clans, and possibly Kreta (if experienced players can get it under 60 minutes). I think I'd also add Yspahan to this list even though the two-player variant works decently well because I think that the two-player rule requiring players to use an action to build weakens building too much, taking away one of the viable paths to victory, resulting in decision-making becoming less interesting.

Fourth, I will arbitrarily and capriciously add a criteria in that eliminates pure abstracts from qualifying for this list. Although the GIPF games and Ingenious would otherwise fit well here, I have an irrational fear of pure abstract games, so I'll acknowledge that Project GIPF includes some wonderful two-player Super Fillers (assuming you don't spend too long deciding what move to make), but they won't belong on this list.

Finally, a few games that I considered adding to this list, but I didn't for various reasons are (although you should feel free to add them to the list and justify why they belong):
-Gheos: It's certainly a Super Filler, and one that greatly appealed to me from reading the rules, but after playing it 13 times, I feel like there's something not quite right with this game. I'm not sure what it is, but I think it has something to do with the % of tiles that are used to replace previous tiles rather than expand the landscape, with the ratio being approximately 50:50 in my games. It's an interesting game, but not quite a great Super Filler for 2 players in my book... a good one though.
-San Juan: I don't know what it is I can't stand about this game, but after playing it 4 times, I hope to never play it again. I can see why this might be the perfect Super Filler for 2 players according to others (so feel free to add it to this list and explain why you love it), but it's just not for me.
-Alhambra: This is a curious one because after playing it 7 times I can see that it's long enough to be a Super Filler, but it still feels too light to be a Super Filler since there doesn't seem to be enough control.

Lastly, I'm a fan of Knizia and all, but the Knizia to non-Knizia ratio of this list is nonetheless a bit out of whack, help rectify that with your own additions please :)
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Posted Wed Sep 5, 2007 7:49 pm
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1. Board Game: Hansa [Average Rating:7.09 Overall Rank:193]
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Tom Rosen
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Hansa is the first game I personally think of when considering great Super Fillers for 2 players. I've played it 28 times and have certainly not tired of it yet. In fact, it has grown on me more and more, considering the fact that I was ho-hum about it at first, and am now putting it at he #1 spot here. I think the biggest problem with this game is that the publisher put 2-4 players on the box, while the game shines with 2 players, and is merely okay with 3 and 4 players (although I'm sure there are many people out there who think the opposite is true). De gustibus non disputandum est. For me though, this is the perfect two-player game when I'm looking for a middle-weight game that is heavier than Fjords or Odin's Ravens, but lighter than Goa or Java. It has just enough luck and randomness to make it different every time, but not too much that you feel like the game is out of control and your decisions are meaningless. The mechanic of the boat being used by both players is obviously what makes this game, at least for me, since it provides the most excruciating decisions of figuring out where to leave the boat for your opponent. I just recently tried the Changing Winds and Extrakarte variants for the first time, and while I didn't think that the Changing Winds map added much to the game, I did like the endgame bonus points added by the Extrakarte variant, and hope to try that again soon. As was suggested by one of my opponents recently, if only they'd made the different color barrels into different goods instead (e.g., furs, spices) to make the game feel less abstract, then it would've been perfect.
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Edited Wed Sep 5, 2007 7:33 pm
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Phillip Heaton
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The main problem with adding players to Hansa is the incredible racketing up of the chaos. In two player, it is easy to plan your next move, because you can usually predict what your opponent will do. This becomes extremely difficult to do with three players and virtually impossible with four.
Lo Ma
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We liked Hansa as a 2-player game as well as a multi-plyer game, and played it a lot for a short while. But after awhile, no one was very interested in playing it anymore. It felt like it should have been more complex than it was, and so was kind of unsatisfying. Not sure why.
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Edited Thu Sep 6, 2007 4:09 pm
Claudio Campuzano
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Exactly the one I was thinking of when I read the description. Great game.
2. Board Game: Through the Desert [Average Rating:7.30 Overall Rank:101]
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Tom Rosen
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I'm surprised at myself that I'd put this gem at #2 on the list rather than at #1 but I'll console myself by considering it essentially a tie between Hansa and Through the Desert for the two-player Super Filler crown. I think that Through the Desert is another game where the publisher made the mistake of putting 2-5 players on the box, even though the game shines with 2 players. This sentiment is a recurring theme with me, except with a few games like Mykerinos and Clans as mentioned above in the header. Anyway, after playing Through the Desert 21 times, I think I can say with some certainty that it's another outstanding Super Filler for 2 players. In contrast to Hansa, it has the benefit of no in-game luck, but uses a nice pre-game random distribution of watering holes and oases to make each game different. I really enjoy the tense feeling of this game, especially in the beginning, because just like Pingvinas, the decisions in the first few turns are the most difficult and most important, and there are far more things that you'd like to do than are possible to actually do. It also has an fun mental component of trying to read your opponent and gauge his or her priorities. However, while the components are unique and enjoyed by some, this is one game that I'd love to see get a Doyle makeover and emerge with somewhat less silly looking bits.
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Edited Wed Sep 5, 2007 7:38 pm
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Luke Morris
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This and Samurai are the two I was gonna mention as I was reading the intro. Curses that you actually listed them first...Still at least I know I was on the right track! :D
Tom Rosen
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Yup, you were definitely on the right track Luke if Through the Desert and Samurai were the two games you thought of. Sorry if I preempted you by adding them here :D
Alex Brown
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I'd just like to point out that the skills involved in playing Through the Desert and Hansa are very similar to the skills you'd need to play any abstract game well - lookahead, pattern recognition, gauging opponent's likely moves, etc. Heck, Through the Desert is basically an abstract game with camels. And my wife, who doesn't like abstracts, disliked Hansa for many of the reasons she dislikes abstracts.

I would highly recommend giving DVONN and YINSH a look. They are not hard to learn and are very well-liked, even by people who don't usually like abstracts.
Tom Rosen
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I completely agree Alex! Through the Desert and Hansa are essentially abstract games with a very thin theme, but for some reason even that thin theme is important to me. This is why I say that my problem with pure abstract games is irrational and capricious.

I actually do own and enjoy both YINSH and DVONN, but for me they'll only ever be good games and never as great as some of the others on this list. I know that doesn't really make any sense, and I can definitely understand what you mean about the skills involved in both sets of games being the same. So for many other people I think Project GIPF is an example of some great Super Fillers for 2.
3. Board Game: Samurai [Average Rating:7.57 Overall Rank:46]
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Tom Rosen
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Samurai is the third and final game that I'm sure belong on this list (as the other two that I've included are both "maybes"). This is Knizia's second (of three) entries on the list, and while it pales in comparison to Through the Desert in my opinion, it's still a great Super Filler for 2 players. This is the third game on this list and the third game that I think excels with the fewest number of players on the box. As with Hansa, the problem in Samurai with adding more players is that the game has a serious left-right binding issue (even more so than Puerto Rico in my mind). That is to say that sitting to the left of the weakest player is a major advantage in Samurai, which is why I prefer the game with 2 players since you're to each other's left. One thing I love about Samurai (aside from the fabulous components) is that after 23 games I'm still not sure what the best opening hand of 5 tiles is to select. I've tried different opening hands and have yet to settle on a favorite, which is the sign of a good game in my opinion.
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Edited Wed Sep 5, 2007 7:42 pm
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Juha N.
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This one fits the defination pretty nicely. Althought I haven't yet played it with 2 players I can imagine that it works perfectly with that amount of players too. Selecting your starting hands by random speeds up the set-up considerably and IMO improves the game by cutting down the amount of analysing needed.
4. Board Game: Ra [Average Rating:7.76 Overall Rank:25]
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Tom Rosen
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The fourth game on this list and third Knizia game on this list is Ra, but it's only a provisional addition because I haven't played the two-player variant enough times to be sure. While I've played Ra 46 times and am sure that it's a fabulous Super Filler for 3 players (contrary to my GOTW successor's infamous griping, heh), I've only tried the two-player variant a few times. I must say that, as with Goa, I was very surprised at how well the auctions worked with only 2 players. In both games the auctions are more interesting than I would've expected even when you play against one opponent. Ra certainly fits into the time and complexity requirements of this list, but the number of players requirement may or may not be satisfied... only further research will tell.
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Edited Wed Sep 5, 2007 7:46 pm
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Sheamus Parkes
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It works for my wife and I. I like auctions, and this is one that she will go along with. It eases the bidding calculations and throws in so many unknowns that you can't really over think it.
Carl Anderson
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Great with two, for sure. I've played it with my gaming buddy at work as well as with my wife--and you know it's good when the wife likes it!

That said, I'm not convinced that it's at its best with 2. Mind you, I'm not convinced that it's at its best with more--I haven't played enough of either to be certain. But I do know that it's a damn fine game if you only have two people, and I enjoy it thoroughly.
5. Board Game: Taluva [Average Rating:7.19 Overall Rank:174]
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Tom Rosen
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Finally, I'll add a second provisional addition to this list. I've only played Taluva 3 times, so I certainly can't be sure whether it's a great Super Filler for 2 players yet, but my initial impression is that it may belong here. It definitely fits the time and complexity requirements of the list, and also certainly seems like a game that I'll enjoy more with fewer players, but the question remains whether it's great and has staying power, or is merely okay. I do really like the components (both the thick, chunky Java-esque tiles and the nice wooden bits) and the tension of the gameplay was wonderful, so only time will tell for this one.
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Edited Wed Sep 5, 2007 7:48 pm
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Chris Norwood
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The only reason this might now qualify is that withwo people it can go significantly shorter than the "super-filler" time frame. One night during the month that it was Game of the Month! with my game group, I played two games in 14 minutes. Of course, we were both very familiar with the game and played quickly, but that's right speedy no matter what!
Tom Rosen
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Wow Chris! Two games of Taluva in 14 minutes! That's impresssive. I can certainly see this one speeding up with more plays since the rules are fairly streamlined, although I'm not sure I'll ever get the average playing time down to the 7 minute mark. It may be closer to 30 minutes than the traditional 45 minutes of the Super Filler, but then again if it has the feel of a heavier game despite its quick playing time then maybe it belongs since this is primarily about coming away from the game feeling like you played something longer/heavier than you actually did. I just want the illusion :)
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Edited Thu Sep 6, 2007 3:08 pm
Sheamus Parkes
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The only thing I really have against this is it's abstractness.

Also, maybe I need to play it with 2 players sometime. I've only played multiplayer. With multiplayer, it seems like it's always a gamble on who builds the third tier, because they are generally giving someone else a free tower...
Mike Adams
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Isamoor wrote:
With multiplayer, it seems like it's always a gamble on who builds the third tier, because they are generally giving someone else a free tower...


I thought that at one point, but keep playing. It's no longer true in my games.
6. Board Game: Yspahan [Average Rating:7.36 Overall Rank:105]
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Jonathan Takagi
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Yspahan IMO doesn't lose anything at all when played 2-player. It plays quickly (under 30 minutes) and offers a good amount of decision making.
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Tom Rosen
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So I'm curious Jonathan if you think that attempting to build all 6 buildings is still a viable strategy in the 2-player version? I suppose since you have extra actions, it doesn't necessarily hurt to have to use them to build, but when those extra actions could alternatively be used to add more guys to the board, it seems like building might not be worth it, except maybe one or two buildings (like the free card for going to the caravan one if you're going for a caravan strategy). I definitely agree that it's a good Super Filler that fits in the time requirement and offers a good amount of decision-making, I'm just not positive that the two-player rules work for me.
Jonathan Takagi
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I see what you mean - I also find having to waste one of your turns on building annoying. I guess I rarely plan to build all 6 buildings in a multiplayer game - the amount of time/resources required to do this is not worth the 5/10 point bonuses to me. So I guess I never really consider doing this in a 2-player game either.
Tom Rosen
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Maybe I need to just stop trying to build all 6 buildings, heh! I guess I like the permanence of the buildings, whereas the guys on the board or in the caravan both get wiped out periodically. When I build something it's there for good, plus they give me fun little bonus abilities, even if I never have time to really take advantage of those abilities. Hmmm, perhaps this is my problem, not the game's, guess I'll need to play some more to figure it out.
Lo Ma
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Yspahan is our favorite 2-player game - but we don't use the official 2-player rules - we follow the same rules for multiple players with the following exceptions:

1) The day changes on every other roll of the dice (i.e., when the starting player rolls again).

2) We block out the first camel in the caravan in each row.

Otherwise, everything's the same. You can use the same strategies, and changing the day every other day gives the game the perfect length for developing your strategies. We like this 2-player version of the game better than a 3-player one, and much much better than a 4-player one. It's more strategic and goes fast as long as no one suffers from analysis paralysis. It's the most played game in our house!
7. Board Game: Carcassonne [Average Rating:7.52 Overall Rank:58]
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Steve Oksienik
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0709
The Carc Evangelist is back to once again extole the virtues of this amazing game. Two player, without ANY expansions, is the best way to play this game. Play time should be 20-30 minutes putting it firmly in position as Das Uber Filler.
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Tom Rosen
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How could I not at least mention this one?! Of course it may belong on the list itself, but I ought to have at least discussed in the header why I didn't add it to the list. Personally I prefer to play with both the Inns & Cathedrals rules and Traders & Builders rules, plus I've left mixed in the tiles from other expansions, such as King & Scout (although I don't use the King & Scout rules). With all those tiles, plus the extra I&C and T&B rules (except without using the pig units or trade good chits, neither of which I like), the game generally exceeds the Super Filler time requirements, and is actually relatively heavy in my opinion... but it is yet another game that shines with only 2 players for sure.
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Edited Fri Jun 12, 2009 9:23 pm
Luke Morris
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Yeah I adore this two player (hate it with any more than three) and is my most played game - at least with the Inns and Cathedrals expansion and the River II.
Chuck in those dozen extra tiles and it's beautiful.
Vanilla Carc is not so fun cos I love aggressive play with the big meeple, Cathedrals and Inns and the like.

Also, four point field rule from the original is the way to go! Makes fields nice and important which can lead to very cheeky and malicious farmer placing throughout.
Tom Rosen
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I definitely agree that it's no fun at all with too many players, plus you definitely absolutely need the big meeple to make aggressive moves more viable, and the old farmer scoring is better for forcing players to both commit earlier to forms and to come up with clever ways to sneak onto opponent's farms.

Cheeky and malicious indeed, quite a combination! :laugh:
Senor EvilMonkey
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I could happily spend hours and hours playing 2 player Carcassonne (with Inns & Cathedrals to add nastiness, and the River to add a splash of colour). I personally think 2 players is the optimum number, as more than that adds a bit too much chaos for my liking...
It's just a shame they haven't added the mini expansion and the Cathar tiles to BSW :(

Power to the :meeple:!
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Edited Fri Sep 7, 2007 7:47 am
Armando Gurrola
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I like the trade goods a lot. Gives you incentive to finish other people's cities. Also the pig is kind of meh and usually just helps the stronger player get more points....lame.
8. Board Game: Saint Petersburg [Average Rating:7.36 Overall Rank:93]
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Guillaume Gallais
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I'm not crazy about the name "super filler" (I prefer "middleweight game") but I do love this game category and quite a few of my favorite games are on it.
Here is one: Sankt Petersburg plays nicely with two players. It has a slightly different feel than with 3 or 4. It is a little marvel very much enjoyable.
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Tom Rosen
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I know what you mean about the name Guillaume. When I first heard the term "Super Filler" I thought that it meant a game that is even quicker and lighter than a normal filler... and I wondered how something could be quicker and lighter than Coloretto or No Thanks, heh! The term still sometimes make me think of something that isn't heavier than a filler, but rather lighter than one, so I often still just call these games (Samurai, Hansa, Through the Desert) middle-weights instead, but I thought that Super Filler might be a more clear title for this list and thought it might be helpful to expand on the taxonomy that Mike developed.

Anyway, I'm not surprised to see Saint Petersburg show up on this list as it definitely works well with 2 players and fits in the complexity/time requirements. My problem however is with the game's replayability (like Mr. Jack below). I've played Saint Petersburg 9 times now, and am beginning to feel deja vu whenever I play it, like every game plays out very similarly, and your decisions aren't as interesting or difficult as I first thought. This is not to say that I think I've mastered the game, far from it, but rather that I'm surprised at how far this one has fallen for me. I believe I gave it a 9 upon first playing it, and the rating has steadily dropped with successive playings to an 8, 7, and now a 6. Since I enjoyed this one a lot at first and have almost exclusively played it with just 2 players, I'm beginning to think I should try it with more players to see if that breathes new life into it (the expansion certainly didn't).
Sheamus Parkes
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Thommy8 wrote:
My problem however is with the game's replayability (like Mr. Jack below). I've played Saint Petersburg 9 times now, and am beginning to feel deja vu whenever I play it, like every game plays out very similarly, and your decisions aren't as interesting or difficult as I first thought.


Heck, I've only played this game 2-3 times and I already don't think the decisions are that interesting. This is a resounding, "okay" in my book. I don't think we'll ever pull it out again as a "super filler for 2".

Also, I think you might as well call these "weeknight games", since that's the main time we pull these out :)
Luke Morris
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Two player gets FAR TOO repetitious. You're always ending up with the same folk and buildings and the money is far too plentiful. In fact I've really gone off this with two. With 4 it's ok though.
Evan S
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"I'm not crazy about the name "super filler" (I prefer "middleweight game")..."

I agree.

I think most people's first instinct when they see 'Super Filler' is likely to mean 'an exceptionally good filler game'.

Generally, if you want 'super' to clearly to mean extra big or extra whatever, it is used as a prefix: supersonic, superstructure, superfine, etc.

I would prefer 'superfiller' or 'super-filler' to 'super filler'.
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Edited Fri Sep 7, 2007 6:57 pm
SoccerGeeks F.C.
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HamsterOfFury wrote:
Two player gets FAR TOO repetitious. You're always ending up with the same folk and buildings and the money is far too plentiful. In fact I've really gone off this with two. With 4 it's ok though.


Still my favourite game but I have to agree with Luke - it's no good with 2 players.

Gove me 3 or 4 people and I'm in heaven.
Armando Gurrola
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Eh I agree gets old, but yeah decent, but not a super filler at all.
9. Board Game: Notre Dame [Average Rating:7.53 Overall Rank:63]
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Guillaume Gallais
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Notre Dame is a wonderful recent game which has slightly the same taste as St Petersburg. I do enjoy it a lot.
It is an excellent game which scales nicely from 2 to 5 players: a rare quality.
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Tom Rosen
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I'm also amazed at how well this game scales. I've only played it 7 times so far, but have tried it with all four player counts (2, 3, 4, and 5) and was very impressed by how it handled all number of players. Considering the fact that I'm big on finding the optimal number of players for a game and only playing it with that number, I can't seem to pigeon-hole Notre Dame, which may be a good thing. The only other game that scales as well as Tigris & Euphrates, which works wonderfully with any number of players (and perhaps Goa and Java also scale very well).

Anyway, the only reason I didn't add this to the list to begin with is that we haven't played it quick enough yet. It's not a long one by any means, but just over an hour rather than just under an hour, at least so far. I can see this one fitting into the Super Filler mold with more practice though.
Sheamus Parkes
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My wife and I can do this one in under 40 minutes easy, and we've only played it 3-4 times. Just our play style I guess...
Burkhard Henke
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under 30 minutes every time--it fits the category beautifully, I think.
Johan
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0708
Around 30 minutes of tight, strategic fun for two. Excellent game!
10. Board Game: Druidenwalzer [Average Rating:6.04 Overall Rank:1786]
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L. Stitz
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0708
First thing that crossed my mind after reading the description and seeing the examples. Hope it fits your category, as it might be a bit on the heavy side... However, it's done usually in less than 45 minutes.
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Tom Rosen
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One of the many Kosmos two-player games ( http://www.boardgamegeek.com/wiki/page/Kosmos_two-player_ser...) that didn't get a US release so I haven't been able to try unfortunately. I'd love to try:
-DruidenWalzer
-FlowerPower
-Die Pyramiden des Jaguar
-Rosenkönig

Ah well, good to know it belongs on this list, so it's a bit heavier/longer than the other Kosmos two-player fare like Lost Cities, Balloon Cup, and Odin's Ravens then?
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Edited Thu Sep 6, 2007 3:51 pm
Sue Hemberger
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050607
A number of online discounters in the US currently have Rosenkonig in stock (Gamesurplus, boardsandbits, etc.). Could have sworn I saw Druidenwalzer recently, but it's not showing up now.
Angela Lammers
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I've only played this once so far but it was enjoyable. My brother bought it for me for Christmas because it was on my wishlist. He had to order it from Britain because he couldn't find a new copy closer than that.
Robert Braddock
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Either Boards and Bits or Fairplay Games (I forget -- I order a lot from both) got this and Rosenkonige for me when I emailed about them. They often can get more than they list in the inventory.
11. Board Game: Carcassonne: The Castle [Average Rating:7.27 Overall Rank:141]
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This counts for us. Played in around 45 minutes. Despite the simplicity of the rules there are lots of difficult decisions and feels meaty.

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Edited Thu Sep 6, 2007 12:32 pm
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Tom Rosen
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After playing Carcassonne over 50 times, it was absolutely and utterly impossible for me to wrap my brain around this game. It was unfortunate because I'd been looking forward to a specifically two-player version (and one by Knizia no less), but the fact that only roads need to match up and other edges of tiles don't need to match up made this one impossible for me to play intuitively. If I'd started with this game rather than original Carcassonne, I have no doubt that I might have loved it, but as it is I traded this one away after 3 plays.

Everything must match up! :D

Out of curiosity, anyone else have this problem?
Steve Oksienik
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Actually, I started with this one. We loved it and played it almost daily for the first two weeks. Then I got Carc. When we came back to this one, it fell flat. Traded just this week which is too bad cause I was attached for sentimental reasons. :cry:
Jeff Binning
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For us it was a challenge for the first 5 or 6 games, then it "clicked". Our initial problem was the same, trying to grasp the way the tiles connected. Now a favorite 2 player for my wife and me. I tend to like all things Knizia, but you might want to give it another chance.
Luke Morris
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Thommy8 wrote:
After playing Carcassonne over 50 times, it was absolutely and utterly impossible for me to wrap my brain around this game. It was unfortunate because I'd been looking forward to a specifically two-player version (and one by Knizia no less), but the fact that only roads need to match up and other edges of tiles don't need to match up made this one impossible for me to play intuitively. If I'd started with this game rather than original Carcassonne, I have no doubt that I might have loved it, but as it is I traded this one away after 3 plays.

Everything must match up! :D

Out of curiosity, anyone else have this problem?



YESSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS! I couldn't comprehend this game. The clunkiness of tiles not needing to match up meant I couldn't even comprehend cunning moves or cutting in on my opponent or planning ahead.
Compared to Carc this wasn't an enjoyable experience. Ugh.
Eric Carter
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Thommy8 wrote:
After playing Carcassonne over 50 times, it was absolutely and utterly impossible for me to wrap my brain around this game. It was unfortunate because I'd been looking forward to a specifically two-player version (and one by Knizia no less), but the fact that only roads need to match up and other edges of tiles don't need to match up made this one impossible for me to play intuitively. If I'd started with this game rather than original Carcassonne, I have no doubt that I might have loved it, but as it is I traded this one away after 3 plays.

Everything must match up! :D

Out of curiosity, anyone else have this problem?


I gave this two tries and traded it away. This probably shouldn't have been given the Carcassonne name.
Martin Sarnecki
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Easily my favourite Carcassonne. To my mind, not having to match up tiles unless you want to allows many more possibilities for smart and devious play. And then there's the careful husbanding of points to claim the bonus tiles.

With players of any experience with the game, going twice in an hour is easy.
12. Board Game: The Settlers of Catan Card Game [Average Rating:7.02 Overall Rank:219]
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Settlers of Catan Card game is also around the 45 minute mark - but can feel much longer. I sometimes feel drained after this game probably because I find it hard to cope keeping track of the resources on the cards (something to do with my spatial awareness) - I need bits.
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L. Stitz
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Actually, it is much longer. I can't remember a time where we were finished after an hour. Games tend to last the whole evening, and when you're done, you are too tired to play anything else. Same goes to Starship Catan.
We normally play pretty fast - so rarely go over 50 minutes, but we don't use any expansions yet, and use the varient playing with 2 production dice. I wouldn't play it any other way.
Armando Gurrola
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We usually do about 70 minutes here. You play really quick or we are just rutheless(we use so many action cards), that the game lasts longer and is extremly confrontational. Great game though for play every now and then.
Min Yu Liew
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Just bought this game and it is great! My boyfriend has a similar problem regarding keeping track of resources on the cards. I'm actually thinking of purchasing wooden cubes and placing them on the resource cards like Power Grid's resource market.
13. Board Game: Mykerinos [Average Rating:7.10 Overall Rank:202]
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You mentioned Mykerinos in your introduction to the thread as a game you tried but didn't like due to the netural player aspect.

However, I think it is excellent with two - the neutral doesn't feel like an artificial add on of a third player, (and doesn't score or draw cards) but is instead an integral part of the game, a blocking tool - used equally by both players.

45 minutes - feels like longer, enjoyable and strategic.
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Tom Rosen
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I've tried Mykerinos 3 times, once with 2 players, once with 3 players, and once with 4 players, and definitely enjoyed it more with more players, but it could be that I just have a strong bias against artificial/neutral third player rules in two-player games. It seems to me that when the rules have to add in that kind of approach that the game must not be meant for only two-players and has only been adapted (man-handled) to get it to work for 2 players. I don't really like to play with imaginary Dirk/Matt in Alhambra, and think the artificial third player in Acquire ruins it, so probably had preconceived notions when approaching it in Mykerinos, but still it seemed to detract significantly from the experience for me... maybe worth another shot with 2 players, but generally I'll reserve this game for when I have more opponents I think (which is funny because the previous Ystari game, Caylus, is one that I love with 2 players, but don't enjoy with many more).
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Edited Thu Sep 6, 2007 3:22 pm
B.J. Huddleston
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I totally agree with Archivists. This is a great 2-player game. It plays quick but offers many strategic decisions. In the 2-player variant the neutral blocks can be played by both players as an additional blocking tool, and does not in the least feel like an "artificial third player", as the neutral blocks do not score.
14. Board Game: Battle Line [Average Rating:7.54 Overall Rank:61]
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There may be some disagreements with this one. Our average game length is around 35 minutes though sometimes games can be much shorter.

I think it has all the qualities of a super-filler for two. Lots of strategy with hard thinking required.

Great game.

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Robert M
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and it's another Knizia.
Steve Oksienik
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I almost can't put this one in this category. Its such a simple game but an absolute brain burner. I can't decide if it makes me tired or energized. But I do think it belongs, just barely.
15. Board Game: Big City [Average Rating:6.97 Overall Rank:291]
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Nathanael Straight
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 This one qualifies, I think. I just got it yesterday and had my first play yesterday, but what a great game. It plays a lot faster than I thought it would, and seems to have a neat quality where you get as much depth and strategy out of it as you put in, if that makes sense. Word has it that the game is at its best with 2.
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Tom Rosen
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Thanks for adding this Nate. I hadn't realized how quick this played and how few players it supported. For some reason I had the impression it was longer and required more players, so now I'm thinking I need to look into this one more closely, especially with Doyle doing the artwork for the reprint. Curse you for adding another game to my wishlist potentially, and here I thought I was doing a good job keeping it in check... at least it still has zero in-print games on it (for now).
16. Board Game: Mr. Jack [Average Rating:7.41 Overall Rank:88]
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L. Stitz
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And here is another one we forgot.
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Tom Rosen
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Ahh yes, I forgot to discuss Mr. Jack. Of course it should be considered for this list so thanks for adding it. However, my biggest qualm with the game is its replayability, which seems like it may not be very high. I've only played Mr. Jack 6 times, and have really enjoyed it, but somehow get the sense that after 15 plays I may not be coming back to this one a lot more, it's hard to say so far whether it's a great Super Filler for 2 in my book yet, but it's at least certainly a good Super Filler for 2.

I do like the presentation of the game and am looking forward to the five character expansion to see what that adds as well. I'm a sucker for small expansions like the ones coming out for this and Mykerinos in October :)
Sue Hemberger
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There's already a small (Spielbox) expansion for Mr. Jack called "The Carriage." Got mine yesterday but haven't tried it out yet.
Carl Anderson
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Talk about lack of replayability...in every play of this game, Miss Stealthy was Jack! (Admittedly I've only played twice.)

One out of eight chance, my toe. :D

I can see where this one would suffer from that problem, though. Jack's options are few, in general, and so the strategies won't change much. And for the detective, certain things will almost always happen--like taking Sherlock Holmes, or the like.

But still a good game, and one I'd definitely include on this list.