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Things I hate in games...even great games!
Chad Ellis
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I always thought I was as into games as a person could reasonably be...until I started designing and publishing games of my own. Now every time I play a game I find myself looking at it in ways I never would have five years ago -- everything from the elegance of design mechanisms to manufacturing decisions. What I've found is that while I enjoy games even more now than I used to I'm also more critical. I don't just know what I love, like and would rather not play...

I know what I hate.
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1. Board Game: Puerto Rico [Average Rating:8.26 Overall Rank:3]
 
Chad Ellis
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Games with millions of bits!

Puerto Rico is a great game. It works, the strategy is very deep, but there are a few things about it that drive me nuts. One is that it takes roughly forever to set up and then you're constantly moving bits and pieces all over.
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  • 11 comments [Hide]
♪ Isaäc Bickërstaff ♫
United States
Greer
South Carolina
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Entropy Seminar:
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The results of a five yeer studee ntu the sekund lw uf thurmodynamiks aand itz inevibl fxt hon shewb rt nslpn raq liot.
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And it's pretty much a given that, in the time spent setting up the game, that sixth player will arrive.
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  • Posted Thu Sep 13, 2007 9:46 pm
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Nicolas Acosta
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Bogota
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Give Arkham Horror or Twilight Imperium 3rd Ed a try. After that, you WILL know the meaning of: "Millions of bits".

I also recommend you Soccer. Only one bit to move around. And you can play it up to 22 players!ninja
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  • Posted Fri Sep 14, 2007 1:52 pm
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Chad Ellis
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Darthlord wrote:
Quote:
Puerto Rico is a great game. It works, the strategy is very deep


...And yet, and yet.

Chad, given that you praise and criticise the game in the same breath, if you were to give PR a rating, what would it be?


Probably a 7, which is definitely an averaging of things I love and admire about it along with those things here that annoy me.
 
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  • Posted Fri Sep 14, 2007 2:27 pm
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Kenneth Bailey
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Not only does it have lots of bits, but it takes like a half hour to open the box. Sheesh. I expect my games to open quicker than that.
 
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  • Posted Sat Sep 15, 2007 3:52 am
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Manos Velivassakis
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Nodens77 wrote:
Give Arkham Horror or Twilight Imperium 3rd Ed a try. After that, you WILL know the meaning of: "Millions of bits".


That's a major reason that I LOVE these games!! Millions Of Bits! YEAH!!!
 
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  • Posted Sun Sep 16, 2007 4:31 pm
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2. Board Game: Magic: The Gathering [Average Rating:7.34 Overall Rank:134]
Chad Ellis
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I love Magic and I think it's clearly one of the most influential games of all time. What I hate most about Magic isn't manascrew (which, despite the claims of Mark Rosewater that it makes the game better, is a massive design flaw), it's the fact that Magic's success has caused many other interesting and potentially great games to ruin themselves by being collectible.

Here's a good rule of thumb: if your game isn't meant to be played in "Limited" formats, e.g. draft, sealed deck or the equivalent, it should not be collectible. (At least it has no game reason to be collectible...if it's built around a collector-friendly IP, then do what you have to.) Too many games are collectible for no reason other than that the publishers would rather have an MSRP of $1,000 than $40 and think that somehow making a game collectible will magically accomplish this.
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Vincent
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I think manascrew is a deck design flaw, not a game design flaw. When you see the same people continually getting screwed, and then others that never have a problem, it's hard to deny the pattern.
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  • Posted Fri Sep 14, 2007 2:54 am
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Randy Cox
United States
Clemson
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You know what I hate about MtG? The fact that players of the game created a word specifically for that particular game that I'd never heard of before today. Manascrew.
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  • Posted Sat Sep 15, 2007 10:22 pm
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Blue Jackal
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It's "mana screw" and it makes tons of sense, seeing as how you're getting screwed by a lack of mana. So shush.
 
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  • Posted Sun Sep 16, 2007 1:16 pm
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Randy Cox
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BlueJackal wrote:
It's "mana screw" and it makes tons of sense, seeing as how you're getting screwed by a lack of mana. So shush.
MtG players must be wussies. I don't hear Acquire players whining about Tilescrew when they just can't draw a merging tile for squat.
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  • Posted Sun Sep 16, 2007 5:19 pm
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Matthijs v S
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on the issue of manascrew I took a pro's advice:
Shuffle. Shuffle some more. When you're done shuffling, shuffle again.

In official tournaments each player takes 5 minutes to shuffle. Not the 20 seconds you see a lot of new players do.

The more you shuffle, the more random your deck is, and the less manascrew you you will get. That doesn't mean it never happens. It just means it will happen a lot less than some people claim.
 
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  • Posted Tue Sep 18, 2007 2:35 am
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3. Board Game: Puerto Rico [Average Rating:8.26 Overall Rank:3]
 
Chad Ellis
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Did I mention that there are some things I really hate about Puerto Rico? I hate games where if four good players and one mook sit down the winner is largely determined by where the mook sits. (Similarly, if two good players play with X mooks and the good players are next to each other, the game shouldn't be determined by which order they're sitting.)

Lots of games have this flaw to some extent, but my impression is that Puerto Rico is one of the worst. (I'm very open to being told I'm wrong about that or that other players have found good solutions.)
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Aaron Tubb
United States
Fuquay Varina
North Carolina
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Here's a solution: Go and pull random people off the street and stick them in between each player. Now you all have a mook on your right. The playing field is magically balanced again...
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  • Posted Thu Sep 13, 2007 10:21 pm
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Gary Heidenreich
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If you are truely a good PR player, you can overcome someone who is benefiting from a newbie.
 
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  • Posted Fri Sep 14, 2007 1:47 pm
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Chad Ellis
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bop517 wrote:
If you are truely a good PR player, you can overcome someone who is benefiting from a newbie.


Maybe...but if the player benefitting is as good as you?
 
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  • Posted Fri Sep 14, 2007 2:32 pm
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Michael Marvosh
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Meridian
Idaho
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Totally agree here. When player A is getting points for player A, he or she just won't win if both player B and C are getting points for player C.
 
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  • Posted Sat Sep 15, 2007 6:00 pm
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Randy Cox
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Clemson
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It's not the game's fault that rude people are at the table pointing fingers at a visitor/newbie.
 
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  • Posted Sat Sep 15, 2007 10:23 pm
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4. Board Game: Succession: Intrigue in the Royal Court [Average Rating:5.77 Overall Rank:4746]
Chad Ellis
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Brookline
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Games that don't know what they are.

I'll always love Succession, and not just because it's my first published game. How could I not love it -- it has so many things I really enjoy, and I'm still proud of the victory mechanic which I think is deep and reasonably elegant, if not without flaws.

Looking back a few years later, my biggest issue with Succession is precisely one of the reasons I love it -- it has so many things I like in it.

Too many.

It's a negotiation game...no, it's a game of calculation and risk-taking centered around blind bids. No, wait, it's a resource-management game where you carefully invest in income streams that double as the game's victory conditions, trying to avoid being too weak to take part in an intrigue but also having to know when to spend all or nearly all of your resources on a big play. Hang on, it's sort of a CCG in boardgame form, with cards like A Surprising Turn of Events and Big Jerk, Little Jerk.

Even the flavor has a split personality. Why does a serious strategy game have Foglio art and card names like Well-Faked Sincerity or an intrigue about a drag masquerade ball? (The answer is because I wanted it to, but still...)
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Chris
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Newark
Delaware
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Game of Thrones anyone? Except for the artwork, which is extremely stylish and thematically accurate (and I love it so bad).
 
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  • Edited Fri Sep 14, 2007 9:46 pm
  • Posted Fri Sep 14, 2007 9:46 pm
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5. Board Game: Titan [Average Rating:7.08 Overall Rank:317]
Chad Ellis
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Brookline
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Games where I have no idea what I'm committing to.

I happen to be friends with some of the world's best Titan players and I gather things are a bit more predictable for them, but for most of us a Titan game can take less than two hours...or more than two days. I really have to love a game to want to play under those conditions...which means that I'll probably only play Titan when Andrew's visiting (or vice versa) and he wants to.
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Robert Rossney
United States
San Francisco
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The last Titan game I played was a two-player game that lasted six hours. Granted, the circumstances were a bit unusual: it was my opponent's first game, and my start was so poor that I spent two hours avoiding him. Since he'd never played before, he didn't understand that he should have been attacking me before I could catch up with him.

I think the first actual battle in the game had Dragons on one side and Hydras on the other. The last battle involved six Hydras (three on each side), an Archangel, and a 13-point Titan (mine) who survived the 7th turn with one point remaining, at which point my opponent threw in the towel.

If we both hadn't been totally exhausted, we would have started a second game right then and there.
 
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  • Edited Fri Sep 14, 2007 10:41 am
  • Posted Fri Sep 14, 2007 10:21 am
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I suck at Bingo .... but I don't mind
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UhhhClem wrote:
The last Titan game I played was a two-player game that lasted six hours. Granted, the circumstances were a bit unusual: it was my opponent's first game, and my start was so poor that I spent two hours avoiding him. Since he'd never played before, he didn't understand that he should be attacking him. I think the first actual battle in the game had Dragons on one side and Hydras on the other. The last battle involved six Hydras (three on each side), an Archangel, and a 13-point Titan (mine) who survived the 7th turn with one point remaining, at which point my opponent threw in the towel.

If we both hadn't been totally exhausted, we would have started a second game right then and there.



This has to be the first time I noticed a mistake in one of your sentences.
I very much enjoy your style of writing.
 
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  • Posted Fri Sep 14, 2007 10:28 am
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Robert Rossney
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Ha, you posted that at the same time that I was editing the mistake away.
 
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  • Posted Fri Sep 14, 2007 10:41 am
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6. Board Game: Puerto Rico [Average Rating:8.26 Overall Rank:3]
 
Chad Ellis
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Brookline
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Games where the interaction between the rules and the flavor is incredibly arbitrary.

"Hi Joe, how was your harvest?"
"It was great; my tobacco plantations are really doing well. And you?"
"Not so good. Most of my plantations are Corn, and unfortunately there's a lot of corn in Carol's and Jason's warehouses, plus there's four barrels on that boat in the harbor. Until some corn gets shipped home, my plants just won't make any more. If only the harvest gods hadn't decreed that the region's supply of all goods had a specific cap."

"Hi, I'd like to sell some coffee."
"Ah, excellent! Coffee is very valuable; I'll give you four gold for it...ah, plus another because you own a market. Now I must ask you to leave; I never buy more than one thing from a customer."

- next day -

"Hi, I'd like to sell some more coffee."
"I'm terribly sorry, Sir, but I already have some. That first barrel was worth five gold but I wouldn't even pay a penny for another. Speaking of not paying a penny, you might want to come back tomorrow because this gentlemen is selling me some corn for nothing. Now that I have four different commodities I can sell them myself and tomorrow I'll be back in business for your coffee."

"David, what happened to all that Sugar you'd refined?"
"It's a shame. I built a warehouse and was all set to put someone to work there, but before I could call the Mayor, someone else loaded up some ships, at which point of course my Sugar rotted. If only the perishability of goods wasn't determined by the comings and goings of merchant vessels."

"Hello, Captain! Setting sail for home?"
"Aye, that I am...do ye have any goods for me?"
"Sure do...I've got three barrels of corn plus one each of sugar and tobacco. The other captains have filled their holds with Coffee and Indigo, so you can have it all."
"Well, I do have room for five barrels, but of course it's against the code of the sea for me to carry more than one type of good at a time. You choose which you'd like me to take."

I don't know anything about the design history of Puerto Rico, but it looks a lot like a really cool game engine that was created and playtested...and then had a flavor wrapped around it using some power tools and duct tape.
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M Dornbrook
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Quote:
and then had a flavor wrapped around it using some power tools and duct tape.


I couldn't agree more. I, personally, don't mind stripping a game to play it like an abstract. I suspect that themes, however pasted on, helps a variety of people to learn a game (as well as provide an excuse for artwork).
 
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  • Posted Fri Sep 14, 2007 6:15 pm
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Pieter
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There is a whole list of these: http://www.boardgamegeek.com/geeklist/18878
 
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  • Posted Sat Sep 15, 2007 7:22 am
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Manos Velivassakis
Greece
Athens
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Well,actually EVERY eurogame had a flavor wrapped around it that is totally irrelevant.This doesn't mean that they are not good games!
 
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  • Posted Sun Sep 16, 2007 4:42 pm
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Michael Kefauver
United States
Saint Charles
Illinois
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I can actually think of a reason why the ship thing would make sense. Perhaps they unlaod the different goods at vastly different parts of the "Home land"? I mean, look at America, and imagine that the west coast gets the sugar, and the east gets the corn. Would YOU want to go and sail all that distance for 1 extra barrel?

The "Whatever good gets here first thing" is kinda weird, but perhaps the captain is just really impulsive?
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  • Posted Tue Sep 18, 2007 6:08 am
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Surya Van Lierde is pure Eurosnoot and proud of it!
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Quote:
it looks a lot like a really cool game engine that was created and playtested...and then had a flavor wrapped around it using some power tools and duct tape.

It might look like that, but I think that most of these mechanics where introduced to fix gameplay and balance problems
 
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  • Posted Tue Sep 18, 2007 2:04 pm
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7. Board Game: Apples to Apples [Average Rating:6.39 Overall Rank:947]
Chad Ellis
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Brookline
Massachusetts
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Games that make me feel dumb as a publisher...because I never would have made them.

We've all heard the stories about the many publishers who turned down a children's book by an unknown author by the name of Rowling...or the agent that wouldn't represent the Beatles...or take your pick.

Me, I bet I wouldn't have published Apples to Apples unless it was designed by someone with enough personal pull to force me to play it a bunch of times.

Apples to Apples has no right to be as much fun as it is. Come on, all you're doing is picking a noun card that someone might choose as the best fit for their adjective! It's lighter than helium...but I don't think I've ever seen a group of people playing it and not laughing.
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Just call me Erik
United States
Waldorf
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How about IBM refusing to buy Microsoft for $1M in the eighties?
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  • Posted Fri Sep 14, 2007 4:35 pm
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Mike K
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Fairless Hills
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"Not to mince words, Mr. Epstein, but we don't like your boys' sound."

Decca records, rejecting the Beatles.
 
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  • Posted Sun Sep 16, 2007 12:37 pm
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Russell Alphey
Australia
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Ivor_the_Rabbit wrote:
unixrevolution wrote:
How about IBM refusing to buy Microsoft for $1M in the eighties?


How about Digital Research refusing to write an OS for IBM's new range of PCs?


According to a recent broadcast I heard, IBM asked someone to suggest to DR that they sign the agreement with them. The message wasn't passed on. The someone was Bill Gates....
 
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  • Posted Mon Sep 17, 2007 5:36 am
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8. Board Game: The Settlers of Catan [Average Rating:7.51 Overall Rank:79]
Ken F
United States
Fort Wayne
Indiana
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I hate the elusive VP! angry I've said it before, and now have the chance to say it again.
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Michael Garrett
United States
Omaha
Nebraska
Purity of Essence.
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snore the german monopoly, i understand what this game did for the hobby.... but move on folks
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  • Posted Fri Sep 14, 2007 5:05 am
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Matthew Watson
United Kingdom
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It's all very well to say that, but what about the people that are STILL being introduced to the better boardgames because of it?

Such elitism doesn't help the hobby!
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  • Posted Sat Sep 15, 2007 1:19 am
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Kenneth Bailey
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HisDivineShadow wrote:
It's all very well to say that, but what about the people that are STILL being introduced to the better boardgames because of it?

Such elitism doesn't help the hobby!

Yes it does....It keeps the mythical newbie from playing Puerto Rico and ruining the game for everyone.
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  • Posted Sat Sep 15, 2007 3:55 am
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9. Board Game: Titan [Average Rating:7.08 Overall Rank:317]
Ken F
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Player Elimination! angry

Who wants to sit for an hour (or more) and watch others play.
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Teh Slipperboy
United States
Allen Park
Michigan
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  • Posted Fri Sep 14, 2007 12:30 am
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Dan Taylor
United States
Unionville
Virginia
Just Another Washed Up Wargamer
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See, I bought "I don't know how long I'll be there for a long game" above, but just player elimination? Worst thing that happens to me with that is I kick the player who killed me (lightly), promise deadly vengeance and then go home. Family is happy to see their dad, everyone wins.

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  • Edited Wed Sep 26, 2007 8:06 pm
  • Posted Fri Sep 14, 2007 1:57 pm
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David
Canada

Ontario
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russ wrote:
Right! It's much more fun to keep playing for an hour or more even if your position is hopeless, instead of starting a new game with other people!


Don't forget that while playing, you can screw over other people in the game. You may have no hope of winning, but you can make damn sure someone else goes down with you!
 
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  • Posted Fri Sep 14, 2007 6:49 pm
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Henry
Greece
Θεσσαλονίκη
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Monopoly fits this entry better than Titan
 
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  • Posted Fri Sep 14, 2007 8:29 pm
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Blue Jackal
United States
Nowhere
Virginia
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I don't know, a recent player in Mare Nostrum got taken out pretty early... and he said he was okay with it and had fun, but I can't help but think that it would've been better to have him simply be eliminated.

Of course, the rest of us should've been beating on the conquering player earlier... he almost came close to winning the game, and should've really, but I think he ignored one means of victory. (Either that or trading typically left him with 8 tax or less.)
 
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  • Posted Sun Sep 16, 2007 1:26 pm
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10. Board Game: Power Grid [Average Rating:8.09 Overall Rank:5]
Aaron Tubb
United States
Fuquay Varina
North Carolina
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Cover art that says "don't play me, I'm drab"

Now, I like Power Grid, but I have to hide box from new players at least until we are already playing. When people see this box, their response is usually "...", followed some time later by "...huh."

I know there are people on BGG who like it, but I've never heard someone who isn't a hard-core-Eurogamer say, "Wow! That game looks awesome! What a cool box!" or anything like unto it.
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My kids constantly complain about the picture on caylus.
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  • Posted Fri Sep 14, 2007 3:48 am
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Jeff Binning
United States
Rollinsville
Colorado
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I love this game, and it looks absolutely stunning as the board and pieces take form on the table, but if you had a stack of them on display in a store, you might have a hard time selling them.

 
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  • Posted Fri Sep 14, 2007 6:44 pm
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United States
Jeffersonville
Pennsylvania
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Sislar wrote:


My kids constantly complain about the picture on caylus.


I think the box art needs some updating. Something like this would be better:

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  • Posted Sat Sep 15, 2007 3:07 am
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Beau Bailey
United States
Missoula
Montana
Why don't you believe me?
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I always kind of liked the Power Grid cover and couldn't figure out why people disliked it. Then I saw it in the store and I shuddered, I had thought the box was about half the size of what it actually is. And they had it displayed next to Descent and Battlelore. Hmm... which is least likely to get picked?
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  • Posted Sat Sep 15, 2007 5:45 am
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Surya Van Lierde is pure Eurosnoot and proud of it!
Belgium
Gijzegem
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It's not "what a cool box" cover, but I like the PG cover. Die Macher on the other hand...
 
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  • Posted Tue Sep 18, 2007 2:07 pm
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11. Board Game: Formula Dé [Average Rating:7.04 Overall Rank:267]
 
Just call me Erik
United States
Waldorf
Maryland
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As much as I love Formula De (I own the base game and 6 expansion tracks), I hated the idea so much of the one-time use dashboards I printed up some poker chip dashboards for my set.

I hate games that require one-time use paper record sheets.

I don't like the idea that part of my game is a consumable commodity, that I will have to either buy later, or may not even be available from the publisher in a few years! Other games with this problem:

Battletech (Though you photocopy or print those on your own)
Stocks and Bonds
Yahtzee

And what I hate just as much:
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Eric Franklin
United States
Everett
Washington
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I'm with you on that.

I laminated ten of each of the sheets from this, and put some dry erase markers in the box. Now my bits aren't disposable and can be reused.
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  • Posted Fri Sep 14, 2007 5:11 pm
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Paul Clarke
United Kingdom
Southampton
Hampshire
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Just photocopy them, or scan them.
 
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  • Posted Sat Sep 15, 2007 2:56 am
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Mike K
United States
Fairless Hills
Pennsylvania
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And Sleuth (and, likely, other deduction games) to the list.
 
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  • Posted Sun Sep 16, 2007 12:39 pm
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Shane Beck
Australia
Not Applicable
Age of Renaissance also suffers from this problem
 
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  • Posted Sun Sep 16, 2007 4:38 pm
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Surya Van Lierde is pure Eurosnoot and proud of it!
Belgium
Gijzegem
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I never understood why they didn't include some tokens that you dispose of when you loose stuff.
 
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  • Posted Tue Sep 18, 2007 2:08 pm
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12. Board Game: Puerto Rico [Average Rating:8.26 Overall Rank:3]
Just call me Erik
United States
Waldorf
Maryland
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Games that require scorekeeping on "a seperate piece of paper".

There are many offenders here...such as Simon Hunt's brilliant game, Take Stock, Alan Moon's Freight Train...or even ol' PR here, after all the VP chips are gone. You know, with all these flaws it just shows PR is good stuff because we play it at all

Include the stuff I need to keep score, please? Don't sell me an incomplete game. Thanks much.
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Dirk Chegigo
United States
Salt Lake City
Utah
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I'm not sure I'm with you when you put PR as the poster child for this issue. There are three ways to end the game and only one gives you the possibility of needing to include VPs that aren't in the box. Since it is an end condition we never use paper. We just remember the single number and add it to the physical VPs.
 
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  • Posted Fri Sep 14, 2007 7:06 pm
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Chad Ellis
United States
Brookline
Massachusetts
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My hunch is that he only chose it as the poster child because it was already chosen for so many other complaints.
 
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  • Posted Fri Sep 14, 2007 10:46 pm
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"Got Trololo?"
Canada
Vancouver
BC
designer
Roger's Reviews: check out my reviews page, right here on BGG!
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Whenever we play, and we need "extra" VP's, we just use the money tokens from the bank to rack em up. The buildings are self explanatory, just add them up, make piles of 5 or 10 or 3 or whatever multiple works for you, and done.
 
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  • Posted Sat Sep 15, 2007 4:32 am
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John Moody
United States
Asheville
North Carolina
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You need a scorecard with Lost Cities. I can't keep that many numbers in my head!
 
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  • Posted Sun Sep 16, 2007 3:20 pm
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13. Board Game: Betrayal at House on the Hill [Average Rating:6.97 Overall Rank:323]
Henrik Lantz
Sweden
Uppsala
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Games dependent on random factors to make it fun

Betrayal can be a really fun game, if:

1) it doesn't take forever until the haunt starts
2) you are lucky and get a good haunt.

If it takes too long before the haunt starts or if you get a bad one, you might as well quit and play something else. I rarely ask to play this game since I can not tell beforehand if it is going to be fun or not. The funlevel of a game should not be dependent on a random uncontrollable factor.

Note that I am not talking about luck or chance in general; that I like a dose of in most games.
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R T
Portugal
LX
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The list is to short, let me add some items...
3) the haunt starts to soon.
4) the revised books still have bugs.
5) loosing more time searching the small bits than playing.
6) one side is at the location, with the item, ready to win when the haunt starts.
7) theres no route to the basement and you need to get there, or, you are in basement and no route out...

but, after all, its a great game, just for the fun off exploring an haunted house, it's like B horror movies, they sucks, but, everybody see it (admit it) ...
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  • Posted Sun Sep 16, 2007 11:22 pm
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