When we play Elfenland, we are Elven Inquisitors, stomping out the heretics of the land. There's a heretic in every village.

We fight over who gets to use the black boot.

I can tell you that my ten year old son is glad that I don't share that setiment. I enjoy playing Heroscape and yelling at him from across the table that the Hulk is coming after his ork army for taking out Cap.

Getting an Orcish postcard could be pretty cool...

I'm not surprised to see lots of different opinions from folks who either love or loathe fantasy themes. I'm just surprised at the 'low maturity' or the 'old fogey' accusations thrown at the fantasy/realism camps. I've played fantasy themed games that are among my favorites, and some I've deeply regretted buying.

When themes work for me: the gameplay is telling some kind of story, and I feel my role in it. I can get this from Power Grid, imagining that I'm the CEO of a growing business in a highly competitive market. In many cases, though, it is easier for me to feel part of a story that has no basis in reality - where anything is possible. This is where I feel fantasy/sci-fi/horror has an advantage, but I haven't seen it exploited flawlessly by game developers.

On maturity: I don't know how everyone else feels, but I've been fourteen inside for about three decades. My personality was basically forged in my teens, and very little of that has changed in me as I've aged to 43. Being older does not mean I have any natural reason to like fantasy any less. That said, I feel the stigma of my hobbies. Have you seen the movie The 40-Year Old Virgin? As if his virginity wasn't enough of an anomaly, did you notice the guy's hobbies are video games, comic books, and painting miniature soldiers? That's me, pretty much. Real Men are supposed to have hobbies like golf, fantasy football or baseball leagues, hunting & fishing, and channel surfing. You don't invite your boss over to play Runebound, do you? It has been hard to discover other adult males willing to come 'out of the closet' and reveal their willingness to play XBox or Warhammer 40K.

On the other hand, I've seen stodgy old fogeys go hog-wild over role playing activities. I've been to Halloween costume parties where accountants and engineers and gruff Harley-riding pipefitters transform into hilarious pranksters. Throw one of those How to Solve a Murder mystery parties, and adults will show up in costume and act in character, and these aren't professional LARP geeks. I believe a majority of people are fourteen inside, but need the right supportive environment (i.e. an excuse) to show it among other adults.

I can't believe some of the things said in this first section!
Games aren't meant to be fun!? Fantasy gaming is for kids!? What!?

Of course games are fun- otherwise why would anyone play them? It's the fun of the challenge, the strategy, watching your opponents fall, the feeling of a hard earned victory.
I find I'm more inclined to ameri-trash games with the fantasy/horror/sci fi genre then to euro-games for one reason more then any other; escapism. I get such a rush from getting away from the gripes of real life. It doesn't matter if I'm an evil wizard, an investigator or a barbarian hobbit- sometimes it is just better then being me in my normal, boring brick-in-the-wall exsistance. Euro style games just don't get you away like that. Sure, you can be engrossed in a good game of chess, but you won't be immersed in it.
You can funnel anger into Ameri-trash too. If I have a bad day, it doesn't matter if I'm taking a load of monsters to shread someone else's in Horrorclix or to tommygun a god in Arkham Horror, I finish the game and feel good. I'm no longer stressed, I feel relaxed, I've vented my frustration on my now battered opponents. You can't take out a bad day planting crops and controlling your resources.
And fantasy gaming can only be described as "for kids" if you mean "for kids of all ages". I'm with badweasel and many others on this one, euro games just don't do as much for me as ameri-trash does

While I agree with the sheep, I like my wooden blocks. It gives my games that "it really IS worth the $40" feel to it. Plastic makes me think "cheap", not high quality.

I've got wood just reading these comments.

Or at least, if we must have cubes, I'd like them to actually REPRESENT something. Like when I play Age of Steam:

A: At last! The train has finally reached us!
B: That's great! What is it laden with?
A: Umm...big red wooden boxes.
B: Splendid! We've been desperate for those. Wouldn't want any of those green boxes, no sir.

Much more satisfying to provide Whynoums with Impossible Furniture in Merchants of Venus.

I guess you have never played "Rheinlander". The wooden Bishop in that game has driven many a player(male and female) insane with phallic envy.

Did I just hear someone say that they've got wood for sheep?

Now, talk about themes that sound revolting...who wants to be a poor farmer! Sign me up baby! Does this game include player elimination though starvation? Ohh no, no more green cubes to eat!

Why is it when I hear about this one, I think:
"To plow it in the winter...sow it with as many Oxen..."
"There's evidence....evidence....."
"Oh it's written in the village rolls...."
"What about World War noises?"
"Was that the Runettes?"
"No..NO...the French and the Germans."

Well you can always play Bridge, Euchre and Poker simultaneously while playing Caylus and Puerto Rico... that should give you a few more cards to play with and a few more things to think about.

Everybody over there in the USA tends to think that Euro-Style-Games have their origin more often than not in Germany or not far away from there.

But that's not all Europe !

If you want tons of cards with umpteenth random effects, especially regarding the right time to play, with every game therefore developing totally different I only can advise to try this gem from Sweden:




...and you will get a completely new view of Euro - Games !

Then you'd best steer clear of Agricola. Every card is littered with text (I dare you play in under 3 hours without pasteups) and there is a significant difference in the power/value/synergy of various cards and card combos.

I don't want to participate in a choose your own adventure book. You know, when you chose things like "should you go in the left or right cave"? You didn't really know what you were choosing and the results had nothing to do with your play. Just like with those 7 people I have tied up in my basement, I need to have control.

Usually the winner was decided before that point. The dice roll at the end was the coup de grace.

Don't spread your hate-mongering here! Choose your own adventure books were the greatest literary achievement of the late 70's, early 80's. [They certainly beat anything on Oprah's book club today.]

As opposed to Settlers, which is decided by random rolls in the first 5 or 6 turns.

Let's say I had settlements on 3, 4, 6, 10 and soon also on 11.
How poor's that?

I want to lose because i screwed up, not because someone else decided I should lose.

What If I decided you were only going to have three walls on your home this winter? Is that fair that your gas bill goes way up because you can't contain the heat in your house?

If you (by which I mean the general "you") are perverse enough to enjoy someone else losing because you went out of your way to screw them over, you can enjoy any game, Thurn & Taxis and Princes of Florence included. You'll probably also ensure that no one enjoys playing games with you.

I'm constantly baffled by the claims against Euros that there is no player interaction. I think that Euros often have subtle player interaction which may not be very noticeable during casual play; but subtle doesn't mean unimportant or nonexistent. The Thurn & Taxis argument is a great example, so is Princes of Florence. In PoF, a large portion of the game is an auction for limited commodities (only one of each type available during a round). It's during those auctions where the game is won and lost.

Also, as others have alluded to, subtle player interaction can make for a more social gaming atmosphere than something with more direct conflict. Of course, YMMV.

Aren't the options that MerricB mentioned interactive enough?

Four player solitaire? No, no; this honour goes to 'CardChess' by His Royal Shillness! hehe

Many of the games I play fall into category 3.

a. you screwed yourself up,
b. your opponents screwed you.

e.g. Roads and Boats, 1856, Imperial, Antike, Rumis, Tutankhamen, Torres (with tactical variant).

At this point I see that I'm a tool. Though I can continue on....

He's making an analogy, not comparing. The important thing is the relation of one style in a medium to another style in the same medium.

As this thing is to that thing, this (other thing) is to that (other thing)

So a "blockbuster" movie requires less thinking than an artsy film, you just have to sit and laugh at the pretty explosions, whereas in a foreign film or something you have to read subtitles, contemplate on "themes", and look deeper into it than "LOL EXPLOSSISONS!"

In the same way when I play "Ameritrash" games I spend less time thinking, "is this move optimal" and more time thinking, "OH MAN IF THIS INFANTRY UNIT DEFIES ALL ODDS AND TAKES OUT THAT TANK THIS WILL BE AWESOME!" I'm thinking on a more abstract level, on a less detailed or organized level. I'm focused more on the narrative, the metagame, the laughing at Brian for getting his Daimyo crushed by my lucky dice rolls, the mindless blathery that makes these games we play seem more like children's toys.

For euro games I am usually very contemplative, quiet, calculating, thinking in layers. In Powergrid, my favorite euro, I will sit for 10 minutes just staring at the board and stacking my chips, and this is fine because we're all doing it. We're all running efficiency patterns in our head, running through those "if then" in case Brian the second property in Dusseldorg, organizing, optimizing. It's a completely different gaming experience.

So just as blockbusters are less thought provoking than artsy films, so to do ameritrash games focus on a different "experience" than euro games.

I think the analogy is very good, actually

Many of the games in the Ameritrash category pre-date video games.

To me, many of the Euro games seem like variations on each other. Some are well thought out and some are not.

Omigods. That has to be the most profound statement I have ever heard expressed on the Geek.

Layering mechanics - you can create a masterpiece, or a mess.

'I recall seeing a singular mechanic in some ameritrash games too.

Attack, roll some dice. Repeat.'

...You forgot to swear inbetween...

If you want a euro with layered mechanics, try out Oltre Mare, if you can get past the boring theme. Also, try Citadels. The theme there should work for you.

Thebes has one mechanic. Draw a tile from a bag and hope for a big number. Everything else is just icing on a turd.

Sounds just like that really old game with the black and white stones where all you do on your turn is place one piece. Occasionally some pieces are captured but it's rare. No depth to that one at all.

I find that there is no game in which I can't kill my opponent.

1. Ask if anyone would like to have anything to drink.
2. Go to the kitchen.
3. Find a suitable weapon such as the pruning shears I keep in MY kitchen.
4. Calmly enter the game room and (this is important) jerk the victim AWAY from the board. You don't want it getting bloody.
5. As the victim is removed from the board proceed to send him into the afterlife while singing "hey hey hey... goodbye...."
6. Laugh with the other players
7. Take the victim to a secluded area and dispose of the body.
8. Dispose of the witnesses.

Important aside: Don't game with people you LIKE.

Just like real life. Get upset, blow something up. Repeat until everyone is dead or interrogated or jailed.

This is why real men and women don't play games in the first place.

Ameritashers are just sissies playing with their dolls. Euros, even be worse.

I have to agree with this entry. Communism works well in real life, not in a board game.

Perfectly said!

Compared to Labor, oops I mean Labour, you are exactly right. Way more left. Where have all the Thatchers and Churchills gone? Could sure use em.

Me: "Hey let's play Lord of the Rings!"

Friends: "WOW, is that something like the movie? With blood, war, magic, adventure, life-threatening situations, dice rolling (oops!), Gandalf-killing creatures and Orcs-killing-Elves-even-though-there's-nothing-like-that-in-the-books!?!?"

Me: "Well, actually you're only drawing tiles and moving a pawn in different stages, expecting not to be eliminated by... well.. another pawn"

Friends: "Let's watch the movies, do you have the DVD?"

leave it to us americans to let our own materialism decide if we play a game or not.

I have to agree with you on this one. But I suppose the same can be said of many books, movies, songs, etc. There are a finite number of original ideas that exist. After that, it all starts to remind you of something else.

Me: "Hey let's play Lord of the Rings RISK!"

Friends: "WOW, is that something like the movie? With blood, war, magic, adventure, life-threatening situations, dice rolling (oops!), Gandalf-killing creatures and Orcs-killing-Elves-even-though-there's-nothing-like-that-in-the-books!?!?"

Me: "Well, actually you're only moving little dolls around while throwing a lot of dice, trying to occupy the most important sections of the board."

Friends: "Let's watch the movies, do you have the DVD?"

And you thought that ameritrash games contained more difference? it's probably just a point of view

edit: stupid smileys