"Not So Boring Board Games" - Columbus Game Group on TV!

dale yu

(yudp)

United States
Cincinnati
Ohio

If you're not part of the soultion...

You're part of the precipitate!

Recommend

Columbus OH Board Game Group Featured on TV

Good Morning Columbus, a local morning show, recently did a feature on CABS - The Columbus Area Boardgaming Society - a group that I am a member of. We got about 18 minutes of airtime over the two hour show, and a number of different games made it on the air.

We were able to get 57 gamers to our meeting place at 7AM, so it certainly looked to be a vibrant group on TV!

For more details, you can read a recap at: http://www.boardgamenews.com/index.php/boardgamenews/comment...

If you want to see the video, check out the first segment:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=odacPPj4Jrc

Links to the other segments are found under "More From: marylaser"

This geeklist is a list of games that were either discussed or seen on TV (at least seen long enough for me to identify them). I'm sure that eagle-eyed BGG'ers will be able to add the other games to this list that I wasn't able to see!

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Posted Tue Jan 22, 2008 9:23 pm

1. Board Game: Box of Golf: A Classic Golf Board Game [Average Rating:6.38 Overall Rank:2966]

dale yu

(yudp)

United States
Cincinnati
Ohio

If you're not part of the soultion...

You're part of the precipitate!

This game has had a fairly strong following at CABS. The show opened to the host rolling dice from this game

2 comments [Hide]

Posted Tue Jan 22, 2008 8:39 pm

Mary Cruickshank

(Box of Golf)

United States
Easthampton
Massachusetts

THANKS...THANKS...THANKS!!!!!

Mary Cruickshank
President
Box of Golf, Inc.

Posted Fri Jan 25, 2008 6:45 pm
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dale yu

(yudp)

United States
Cincinnati
Ohio

If you're not part of the soultion...

You're part of the precipitate!

You're welcome!

The club has certainly enjoyed the copies that we have...

I almost won one at the raffle at Origins -- Missed it by one number!

Dale

Posted Fri Jan 25, 2008 6:51 pm
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2. Board Game: Monopoly [Average Rating:4.50 Overall Rank:7733]

dale yu

(yudp)

United States
Cincinnati
Ohio

If you're not part of the soultion...

You're part of the precipitate!

Monopoly was mentioned along the way, but only in an aside

0 comments

Posted Tue Jan 22, 2008 8:42 pm

3. Board Game: Scrabble [Average Rating:6.45 Overall Rank:827]

dale yu

(yudp)

United States
Cincinnati
Ohio

If you're not part of the soultion...

You're part of the precipitate!

The host will kill you at this! Again, just mentioned in passing in conversation with the studio hosts

3 comments [Hide]

Posted Tue Jan 22, 2008 8:43 pm

Nathaniel Hoam

(Mythoturge)

United States
Fredericktown
Ohio

He IS a total Scrabble FREAK!

Edited Wed Jan 23, 2008 1:13 pm
Posted Wed Jan 23, 2008 1:12 pm
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Robert Bowsher

(Booder98)

United States
Hilliard
Ohio

I say 'bring it'.

Posted Wed Jan 23, 2008 2:27 pm
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nothing but static

(muntmeister)

New Zealand
Unspecified

Booder98 wrote:

I say 'bring it'.

only 6 letters and I am pretty sure you can only do one word at a time.

Posted Wed Jan 23, 2008 10:26 pm
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4. Board Game: Yahtzee [Average Rating:5.14 Overall Rank:7649]

dale yu

(yudp)

United States
Cincinnati
Ohio

If you're not part of the soultion...

You're part of the precipitate!

The studio hosts had this on their table

1 comment [Hide]

Posted Tue Jan 22, 2008 8:43 pm

Dave Young

(dpyoung)

Canada
Calgary
Alberta

What a joker that host was!
"Yahtzee, its a family favourite, we play it on the beach..."

Posted Fri Jan 25, 2008 7:42 am
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5. Board Game: Buckopoly [Average Rating:3.75 Unranked]

dale yu

(yudp)

United States
Cincinnati
Ohio

If you're not part of the soultion...

You're part of the precipitate!

another game just seen on the table in the studio (not in our game-room!)

0 comments

Posted Tue Jan 22, 2008 8:44 pm

6. Board Game: Wallamoppi [Average Rating:5.95 Overall Rank:3628]

dale yu

(yudp)

United States
Cincinnati
Ohio

If you're not part of the soultion...

You're part of the precipitate!

This started off the segment with our librarian - to show the breadth of the games that we play

0 comments

Edited Tue Jan 22, 2008 8:51 pm
Posted Tue Jan 22, 2008 8:44 pm

7. Board Game: Discovering Wargames [Average Rating:0.00 Unranked]

dale yu

(yudp)

United States
Cincinnati
Ohio

If you're not part of the soultion...

You're part of the precipitate!

There is a wargame shown with a brownish board, but i can't figure out what it is - inserted here to show the scope of the games we have in the club library

0 comments

Posted Tue Jan 22, 2008 9:07 pm

8. Board Game: Saturn [Average Rating:6.68 Overall Rank:2307]

dale yu

(yudp)

United States
Cincinnati
Ohio

If you're not part of the soultion...

You're part of the precipitate!

I didn't think that Nate would ever let this game leave his house, but anything goes for TV apparently

0 comments

Posted Tue Jan 22, 2008 8:45 pm

9. Board Game: Zooloretto [Average Rating:6.96 Overall Rank:291]

dale yu

(yudp)

United States
Cincinnati
Ohio

If you're not part of the soultion...

You're part of the precipitate!

The host kept coming back to this game. His last name was DiLoretto and for whatever reason, the fact that this game rhymed with his last name was fascinating and apparently made for good TV

0 comments

Posted Tue Jan 22, 2008 8:46 pm

10. Board Game: Akaba [Average Rating:6.63 Overall Rank:1987]

dale yu

(yudp)

United States
Cincinnati
Ohio

If you're not part of the soultion...

You're part of the precipitate!

Used in the teaser for the kids section.

5 comments [Hide]

Posted Tue Jan 22, 2008 8:46 pm

♪ Isaäc Bickërstaff ♫

(Verkisto)

United States
Greer
South Carolina

Entropy Seminar:

The results of a five yeer studee ntu the sekund lw uf thurmodynamiks aand itz inevibl fxt hon shewb rt nslpn raq liot.

Man, I read this as "Used in the taser for the kids' section." I thought, what the hell games were these guys playing?

Posted Tue Jan 22, 2008 9:37 pm
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Everyone wants to be Chad Thriftington III

(okiedokie)

United States
Oklahoma City
Oklahoma

Don't tas my bro.

Posted Tue Jan 22, 2008 9:54 pm
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Paul Clarke

(paulclarke339)

United Kingdom
Southampton
Hampshire

Shocking roulette?

Posted Wed Jan 23, 2008 11:10 am
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Tony Ackroyd

(1000rpm)

United Kingdom
Brighton
E Sussex

I could do with a taser for the teenagers who hang out in the park behind my house angry

Posted Wed Jan 23, 2008 1:35 pm
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Brian Le

(BengalBoy1980)

United States
Columbus
Ohio

Just getting them ready for campus life at OSU

Posted Wed Jan 23, 2008 3:05 pm
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11. Board Game: Cleopatra and the Society of Architects [Average Rating:6.83 Overall Rank:406]

dale yu

(yudp)

United States
Cincinnati
Ohio

If you're not part of the soultion...

You're part of the precipitate!

I'm not sure how the host got the idea that this was a game "specifically for women" but as far as the Columbus TV audience is concerned, it's good for women -- despite an attempt to correct this by our club President.

Surprisingly, after taping this segment, it became apparent that none of the women sitting in front of the game actually remembered the rules to the game. So, they pretended to play, traded cards and developed their own Settlers of Cleopatra variant

0 comments

Edited Tue Jan 22, 2008 8:49 pm
Posted Tue Jan 22, 2008 8:47 pm

12. Board Game: Arkham Horror [Average Rating:7.57 Overall Rank:69]

dale yu

(yudp)

United States
Cincinnati
Ohio

If you're not part of the soultion...

You're part of the precipitate!

"A game you can't lose". I respectfully disagree with that statement as IMHO everyone loses when they play it... At a minimum, they all lose three or four hours! However, I know that many people love this kind of game and I'm glad that I'm not asked to join in...

This was our chosen example for a cooperative game and sold as a nice game for beginners as they can participate in a group and not be intimidated.

4 comments [Hide]

Posted Tue Jan 22, 2008 8:51 pm

Bruce Reiff

(BDReiff)

United States
Columbus
Ohio

Posted Wed Jan 23, 2008 2:13 am
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Adrian Hague

(AdrianPHague)

United Kingdom
Leamington, Warwickshire
West Midlands

Replete with Dunwich Horror board. I think I spotted the 'Act' cards from King In Yellow at the bottom of the board too.

Posted Wed Jan 23, 2008 11:26 am
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Christopher Moore

(TheKinginYellow)

United States
Duncan Falls
Ohio

I wasn't there that day, but I would assume that the game would have been set up by Paul. That guy is an Arkham Horror FIEND. He sets it up in the conference room, using all expansions, plus whatever extra stuff he can throw in the mix. Usually the game is up and running when I arrive and still in progress when I leave (around 1 AM). He also plays using the philosophy "the more the merrier," which explains the long play time.
It is truly an awesome site to behold.

Posted Wed Jan 23, 2008 7:17 pm
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dale yu

(yudp)

United States
Cincinnati
Ohio

If you're not part of the soultion...

You're part of the precipitate!

TheKinginYellow wrote:

You are, of course, correct. Paul was in charge of the game and was leading a spirited game most of the morning. The folks playing were certainly having a good time, and I will admit that it really does help the overall enjoyment when there is at least one player who is familiar enough with the game that he can give meaningful advice about possible options for the group to choose from. Additionally, though Paul knows a lot about the game, he never seems to railroad the group into any decisions - which is also a great thing to see... The game, this time, was in the main room probably to make it easier for the TV camera to catch it for filming.

That being said, I'd still prefer not to play it myself. It's just not my kinda thing.

Dale

Posted Wed Jan 23, 2008 7:22 pm
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13. Board Game: Battleship [Average Rating:4.99 Overall Rank:7251]

dale yu

(yudp)

United States
Cincinnati
Ohio

If you're not part of the soultion...

You're part of the precipitate!

Descibed as a protypical "strategy" game by the TV host...

2 comments [Hide]

Posted Tue Jan 22, 2008 8:52 pm

Ray

(wtrollkin2000)

United States
Carpentersville
Illinois

Don't you mean the more popular 1931 debuting Battleship? (which despite the claim by someone in the video is older than all the other wargames talked about)

Edited Wed Jan 23, 2008 3:25 pm
Posted Wed Jan 23, 2008 3:23 am
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Tax Averse

(Blinko)

United States
Granville
Ohio

Raising money for cancer research because those that have cancer have better things to do.

I gotta get in shape. Too much sitting has ruined my body and furthermore, I think tipping in GeekAnswers should be fixed

Salvo was published in 1931 and is not Battleship. Battleship was first published in 1967.

Posted Thu Jan 24, 2008 4:29 am
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14. Board Game: Marvel Heroes [Average Rating:6.48 Overall Rank:923]

dale yu

(yudp)

United States
Cincinnati
Ohio

If you're not part of the soultion...

You're part of the precipitate!

This was the opener to the "wargame" section... The big question here was who would win between The Incredible Hulk and Iron Man. Answer? Chuck Norris, of course!

2 comments [Hide]

Posted Tue Jan 22, 2008 8:53 pm

Jason Potapoff

(Nechevo)

Canada
edmonton
Alberta

How's this a wargame?

Posted Fri Jan 25, 2008 2:07 am
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dale yu

(yudp)

United States
Cincinnati
Ohio

If you're not part of the soultion...

You're part of the precipitate!

Nechevo wrote:

How's this a wargame?

It's not a wargame.
But for the TV guy, it was a wargame, and in this case, that's really all that mattered

dale

Posted Fri Jan 25, 2008 2:11 am
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15. Board Game: Midway [Average Rating:6.52 Overall Rank:1390]

dale yu

(yudp)

United States
Cincinnati
Ohio

If you're not part of the soultion...

You're part of the precipitate!

The first real wargame to be shown. Bruce says it was done in '62, the Geek says '64... Who's right? Could Bruce possibly be wrong? (i doubt it)

7 comments [Hide]

Posted Tue Jan 22, 2008 8:56 pm

Allen Doum

(AllenDoum)

United States
Orange County
California

Bruce can be wrong.

Posted Tue Jan 22, 2008 9:32 pm
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Show 2 more comments...

Bruce Reiff

(BDReiff)

United States
Columbus
Ohio

A couple of the old 'AH classics' came out in slightly bigger boxes in '62 - Bismark and Stalingrd for sure - I thought Midway did as well, but I could very well be wrong blush

Posted Wed Jan 23, 2008 2:01 am
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Mark Guttag

(iplawyer)

United States
Fairfax
Virginia

Quote:

A couple of the old 'AH classics' came out in slightly bigger boxes in '62 - Bismark and Stalingrd for sure - I thought Midway did as well, but I could very well be wrong

The three "big box AH classics" were Waterloo (1962), Bismarck (1962), and Stalingrad (1963).

Midway was released in 1964, the same year that Afrika Korps was published.

The way I keep the AH classics straight:

1958: First AH wargames(other than Tactics): Tactics II and Gettysburg (square)
1961: First 3 hex wargames: D-Day, Gettysburg (hex) and Chancellorsville
1962: First two big box games: Bismarck and Waterloo
1963: Third big box: Stalingrad
1964: Midway (more elaborate version of Bismarck search system) and Afrika Korps (automatic elimination and overrun rule that is not in D-Day or Stalingrad)
1965: Bulge '65, Blitzkrieg '65, D-Day '65 (all of these games referred to as '65 edition)
1966: Guadalcanal
1967: Jutland (first Dunnigan game)
1968: 1914 (2nd Dunnigan game)
1969: Anzio (Dave williams also designs S&T game Anzio Beachhead same year)

Posted Wed Jan 23, 2008 10:10 pm
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Mark Guttag

(iplawyer)

United States
Fairfax
Virginia

Forgot:

1964: Gettysburg '64 (Square)

Posted Wed Jan 23, 2008 10:13 pm
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Tax Averse

(Blinko)

United States
Granville
Ohio

Raising money for cancer research because those that have cancer have better things to do.

I gotta get in shape. Too much sitting has ruined my body and furthermore, I think tipping in GeekAnswers should be fixed

Bruce was likely referring to his play-test copy. Look it up, he was a playtester in the credits.

Posted Thu Jan 24, 2008 4:36 am
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16. Board Game: The Battle of the Bulge [Average Rating:5.91 Overall Rank:3761]

dale yu

(yudp)

United States
Cincinnati
Ohio

If you're not part of the soultion...

You're part of the precipitate!

The Battle of the Bulge - everyone in the room was busting a gut as Bruce was holding this in front of his own bulging belly.

0 comments

Posted Tue Jan 22, 2008 8:57 pm

17. Board Game: Ardennes '44 [Average Rating:7.88 Overall Rank:776]

dale yu

(yudp)

United States
Cincinnati
Ohio

If you're not part of the soultion...

You're part of the precipitate!

Reprint of the Battle of the Bulge which gets fleeting TV time

4 comments [Hide]

Posted Tue Jan 22, 2008 8:57 pm

tiger tiger

(tiger_tiger)

United States

South Carolina

Reprint? This is a different game.

Posted Tue Jan 22, 2008 9:39 pm
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George Sauer III

(Laserdog)

United States
Circleville
Ohio

Shhhhhh ....

It's not a reprint ... but a redo !!! that's it !!!

Edited Tue Jan 22, 2008 9:55 pm
Posted Tue Jan 22, 2008 9:55 pm
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dale yu

(yudp)

United States
Cincinnati
Ohio

If you're not part of the soultion...

You're part of the precipitate!

Tiger, my apologies...

As I play mainly Eurogames now, I actually am unfamiliar with both of the games in question. I am only relying upon what was said on TV by the more wargame-oriented members of our club (and as we all know, if it's on TV, it must be true!)

Mea culpa.

As always, I can only be as good as the people under me

Posted Tue Jan 22, 2008 9:59 pm
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Bruce Reiff

(BDReiff)

United States
Columbus
Ohio

For the average "Good morning Columbus" viewer they are essentialy the same thing. laugh

Edited Wed Jan 23, 2008 2:03 am
Posted Wed Jan 23, 2008 1:57 am
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18. Board Game: Memoir '44 [Average Rating:7.56 Overall Rank:61]

dale yu

(yudp)

United States
Cincinnati
Ohio

If you're not part of the soultion...

You're part of the precipitate!

Described as a nice easy wargame. The players were playing the Omaha Beach scenario. Later in the morning as they finished, it was noted that surprisingly some of the infantry managed to make it all the way up the beach into the green colored hexes -- apparently a rare occurence for this scenario

0 comments

Posted Tue Jan 22, 2008 8:58 pm

19. Board Game: War at Sea (second edition) [Average Rating:6.80 Overall Rank:3018]

dale yu

(yudp)

United States
Cincinnati
Ohio

If you're not part of the soultion...

You're part of the precipitate!

A slightly more complex wargame... One that kids can pick up important historical tips from! (according to the host's conjecture at least)

1 comment [Hide]

Posted Tue Jan 22, 2008 8:59 pm

Preston Fuller

(Prestonisnormal)

United States
Ashland
New Hampshire

Quote:

can pick up important historical tips from! (according to the host's conjecture at least)

Yes kids, next time you are in the pool, remember history and don't go near the Bismark.

Edited Tue Jan 22, 2008 10:19 pm
Posted Tue Jan 22, 2008 10:18 pm
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20. Board Game: Combat Commander: Europe [Average Rating:7.97 Overall Rank:24]

dale yu

(yudp)

United States
Cincinnati
Ohio

If you're not part of the soultion...

You're part of the precipitate!

More wargame goodness - Battle of the Bulge scenario being played. Please note that no women were harmed during this segment. Additionally, no women were seen gaming during this segment, and ironically, just as the host is mentioning this fact and chuckling, one of our female member who is an avid grognard appears front and center in the TV screen in front of a huge table with a wargame on it!

1 comment [Hide]

Posted Tue Jan 22, 2008 9:01 pm

Tax Averse

(Blinko)

United States
Granville
Ohio

Raising money for cancer research because those that have cancer have better things to do.

I gotta get in shape. Too much sitting has ruined my body and furthermore, I think tipping in GeekAnswers should be fixed

She was setting up an OCS game. If that ain't wargming, I don't know what is?

Posted Thu Jan 24, 2008 4:39 am
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21. Board Game: Checkers [Average Rating:4.83 Overall Rank:7701]

dale yu

(yudp)

United States
Cincinnati
Ohio

If you're not part of the soultion...

You're part of the precipitate!

The studio hosts continue to challenge themselves with a nice game of checkers.

2 comments [Hide]

Posted Tue Jan 22, 2008 9:01 pm

Jeff Wolfe

(jeffwolfe)

United States
Columbus
Ohio

Permanent microbadges: Zendo fan, Columbus Blue Jackets fan, Dominion Fan (one of these days I'll make the background non-white)

Instead of regular checkers, their set had miniature Ohio State Buckeye and Michigan Wolverine football helmets.

Posted Tue Jan 22, 2008 10:04 pm
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dale yu

(yudp)

United States
Cincinnati
Ohio

If you're not part of the soultion...

You're part of the precipitate!

I know... I just couldn't find any good pics of it, and I was trying to leave the whole OSU-UM thing out of the otherwise polite list

go bucks

dale

Posted Tue Jan 22, 2008 10:08 pm
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22. Board Game: Monopoly: ESPN Ultimate Sports Fan [Average Rating:4.96 Unranked]

dale yu

(yudp)

United States
Cincinnati
Ohio

If you're not part of the soultion...

You're part of the precipitate!

This is one hosts' favorite family game

0 comments

Posted Tue Jan 22, 2008 9:06 pm

23. Board Game: Yahtzee [Average Rating:5.14 Overall Rank:7649]

dale yu

(yudp)

United States
Cincinnati
Ohio

If you're not part of the soultion...

You're part of the precipitate!

This is the other host's favorite family game - for bringing to the beach

3 comments [Hide]

Posted Tue Jan 22, 2008 9:06 pm

Dave VanderArk

(David Vander Ark)

United States
Coopersville
Michigan

What, you roll the dice in the sand and score as many as you don't lose?

Posted Tue Jan 22, 2008 11:11 pm
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♪ Isaäc Bickërstaff ♫

(Verkisto)

United States
Greer
South Carolina

Entropy Seminar:

The results of a five yeer studee ntu the sekund lw uf thurmodynamiks aand itz inevibl fxt hon shewb rt nslpn raq liot.

Dice don't roll in the sand; they just go PFF.

Posted Wed Jan 23, 2008 4:48 pm
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Josh Adelson

(MisterCranky)

United States
State College
Pennsylvania

Hello, can you run as fast as me? I hope not, because if you catch me I will thrash you!

This space available for rent.

You're thinking of that other popular beach game--Wff 'n Proof.

Posted Wed Jan 23, 2008 10:50 pm
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24. Board Game: Zooloretto [Average Rating:6.96 Overall Rank:291]

dale yu

(yudp)

United States
Cincinnati
Ohio

If you're not part of the soultion...

You're part of the precipitate!

A game which helps with Critical Thinking Skillz, Problem Solving Skillz, and Math Skillz

1 comment [Hide]

Posted Tue Jan 22, 2008 9:08 pm

Mike Cooper

(Thosw)

United States
Flower Mound
Texas

LOLZ

Posted Tue Jan 22, 2008 10:14 pm
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25. Board Game: Chateau Roquefort [Average Rating:6.89 Overall Rank:510]

dale yu

(yudp)

United States
Cincinnati
Ohio

If you're not part of the soultion...

You're part of the precipitate!

Though not mentioned by name, seen while talking about family games. The kids here are showing Mad Skillz finding cheese

0 comments

Posted Tue Jan 22, 2008 9:09 pm

31 comments [Hide]

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David Kahnt

(DKahnt)

United States
Upper Gwynedd
Pennsylvania

It's fun, it's healthy, it's good exercise. The kids will just love it. And we put a little sand inside to make the experience more pleasant.

You know, they say there was a man who jumped from the forty-FIFTH floor? But that's another story...

Congrats getting of television!

There's a question I always wanted to ask:

The reporter who's there doing their thing... are they actually really interested or do they play for the camera too much?

Every time I see something like this I wonder how much is actual "wow, neat" and how much is "what the hell did I get myself into?"

-DK

Posted Tue Jan 22, 2008 9:33 pm
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Show 26 more comments...

dale yu

(yudp)

United States
Cincinnati
Ohio

If you're not part of the soultion...

You're part of the precipitate!

mcpranno wrote:

Yeah, I want to move to Ohio, too.

... oh, wait.

Heh... Isn't Chardon kinda like greater Cleveland? You could move further south out of Canada and come to Ohio...

Dale

Posted Thu Jan 24, 2008 11:22 pm
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John W

(reapersaurus)

United States
Sacramento
California

I've been wondering - if this was a Friday, how are there so many (53?!) people, including kids and families there?

After viewing all the TV spots - I thought the segments started rocky, but pretty quickly a sense of acceptance seeped thru, and all but the studio hosts were into it.

I was struck by how odd they approached it in the beginning, but after seeing some normal, well-spoken people talk about having fun, they seemed to "get it" more.

It didn't stop them from continually referring to moldy-old games, though.

Funny, I don't see reporters asking videogamers about Pong and Pac-Man when doing TV articles on videogames nowadays.... shake

Posted Fri Jan 25, 2008 6:46 am
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dale yu

(yudp)

United States
Cincinnati
Ohio

If you're not part of the soultion...

You're part of the precipitate!

reapersaurus wrote:

I've been wondering - if this was a Friday, how are there so many (53?!) people, including kids and families there?

57 actually...

1) Our gamedays, especially on Saturday, often go all day -- start early afternoon and go until 2 or 3 AM. So - some of us are used to gaming throughout the day. Our game sessions have regularly been getting attendance in the 90s as of late.

2) Many people were there before work. The attendance preciptiously dropped (including myself leaving) around 9AM - though my guess is at least 25-30 people were still there at a minimum.

3) The Columbus Public Schools had an inservice day that day, so many kids were home... and a few parents, I think, had to take off work to be home with their kids

4) At least 1 family there home-schools their kids, so this was part of their education for the day

5) The club did pay for White Castle breakfast sandwiches as well as coffee -- certainly an enticing offer

6) I guess CABS is just good like that. Heck, I live in Cincinnati and managed to make it up there.

Dale

Posted Fri Jan 25, 2008 12:44 pm
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JB Lawton

(jbliii)

United States
Dublin
Ohio

My favorite part was when the little girl mentions that she likes to play Bohnanza, and the host starts humming the tv show theme music. I really wanted to see someone tell him "no, it's about bean farming," just to see the look on his face.

Posted Fri Jan 25, 2008 6:14 pm
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