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The Ameritrash Classics
Matt Thrower
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For my latest article on Fortress:Ameritrash I wanted to find out what games from the eighties and earlier genuinely, indisputably deserved the label "classic".

To do this I selected games against the following criteria:

* Must be over 20 years old - games which have really stood the test of time.

* Must have wide appeal and still be seeing regular play amongst a significant quantity of gamers. I decided that this should translate to a minimum of 450 gamers rating. I'd have picked 500, but that would have meant one important candidate narrowly missed the list.

* Must be able to stand critical scrutiny in comparison to modern games. I put this into numbers as having an average rating of 7 or more. In the event I actually went down to 6.9 because when I looked at the data, there was quite a gap between this and the next game down, so it seemed a better cut-off point.

For games with expansions, I've taken the highest-rated expansions into account. The result is a list of games that, whatever you, personally may think of them, have genuinely earned the title "classic" and the respect of the gaming community.

I've ordered the games by average rating in reverse order.

For those interested, the finished article is here:
http://fortressat.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view...
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Popular Tags: ameritrash [+] mr [+] classics [+] [View All]
1. Board Game: Talisman [Average Rating:6.50 Overall Rank:990]
Matt Thrower
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Highest expansion rated 6.90 by 634 users.

You might be a bit surprised to find this propping up the list at the lowest position. I wasn't, given that it approaches Monopoly in terms of "great Satan" status amongst some users on this site. Not one of my personal favourites, to be sure, but it deserves to make the cut in terms of influence alone.

Reprint status: Currently in print from FFG, with a couple of expansions for those that want it. I find it interesting how the a reprint which is not substantially different from the original can actually garner a much better status here on BGG. An effect of the bitter naysayers of the original perhaps?
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Richard Irving
United States
Salinas
California
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Quote:
Must be able to stand critical scrutiny in comparison to modern games


You are talking about a game that comes down these two situations:
- roll die and one option is much better than the other, take the better option.
- roll die and both options are about equal, flip a coin it doesn't matter.

Repeat about 1000 times. Why not save time and roll the die once--high number wins? A lot faster and a lot more fun.

And you say theme matters, there many, many games that have a fantasy that are much, much better. Talisman is Monopoly, but a very poorly integrated, pasted-on theme.

You struck out on game 1--Congratulations!
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  • Posted Mon Aug 17, 2009 2:33 pm
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Andreas Johansson
Sweden
Linköping
I spent 200 GG and all I got was this lousy overtext!
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I spent 200 GG and all I got was this lousy overtext!
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Quote:
I find it interesting how the a reprint which is not substantially different from the original can actually garner a much better status here on BGG. An effect of the bitter naysayers of the original perhaps?

It's probably something akin to the "expansion effect" - people who liked the original play, like, and rate highly the reprint, whereas people who didn't like, and thus rated lowly, the original don't try, and therefore don't rate, the reprint.
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  • Posted Wed Aug 19, 2009 9:01 am
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Zé Mário
Portugal
Senhora da Hora
Matosinhos
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Phil Fleischmann wrote:
Americans have a long history of making fun of themselves and putting themselves down. We tend to embrace insults to ourselves.

Pff
Comparing yourselves with europeans while saying you have a "long history of something".
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  • Posted Wed Aug 19, 2009 2:30 pm
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This is probably my favorite game on this list. Though I hit a point in the late 90's where I had played it too much. Now that I've taken about a 10 year break from the game I'm really enjoying it again. The FFG updates add a lot to that enjoyment.

As far as the game being totally random is concerned I disagree. A group of us played this game (with all expansions save Talisman City, which I didn't have at the time) twice a week for my first semester in college. We kept a running tab on who won and what character they used. Certain players tended to win more often than others. And the winner was mostly independant of what character they played.

I'm not saying Talisman is a strategy game. But players have a lot more control than is evident after your first a couple of plays. And an experienced player is more likely to beat a novice.
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  • Posted Wed Aug 19, 2009 10:13 pm
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Paul O'Connor
United States
San Marcos
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I have been on the rollercoaster with this one -- loved it in the 80s, abandoned it and sold my set several years ago, and am now rediscovering and enjoying it again with my boys. Wouldn't bring this out on a game night but it is big fun for the lads and I.
 
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  • Posted Thu Aug 20, 2009 12:20 am
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2. Board Game: Junta [Average Rating:6.91 Overall Rank:414]
Matt Thrower
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Rated 6.97 by 2165 users.

I was a bit shocked to find this made the list, given the well-known downtime issues caused by the coup phase and the requirement for lots and lots of players. But there's no denying that the card game at the heart of this title was, and is, brilliant.

Reprint status: Currently available with somewhat improved components. Given that well-known issue, it's somewhat surprising to see that the current edition makes no substantive gameplay changes at all. Trying to sort the wheat from the chaff in this one has alway been a tricky problem: perhaps it's impossible after all?
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Dan Taylor
United States
Unionville
Virginia
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This isn't a surprise. Junta is a lot like Talisman, in that it's an "experience" mostly, not a game. Sure, you won Talisman, but the story that's being told afterwards is how Bob's alchemist was defeated by a crippled halfling and how Joe completely trashed Ed with a flying carpet.

In Junta, the stories being told are how Peter made it to the bank with most of the country's cash in his pocket and resisted 3 attempts at assassination, or the time I-do-not-bluff Sam told everyone not to coup this turn or he'd beat them all for sure.

The "coup phase" has a bad rap here. Personally, it's not _that_ long. You pick your _1_ area and move. You might roll a round of combat. If everyone knows what they're doing, the vast majority of the coup phase is spent in frantic negotiation and the usually skullduggery and backstabbing that characterizes a good Junta game.

So pull out the rum, put on the bad hats, practice your bad accents and enjoy. Win or lose, it'll be a good time.
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  • Posted Tue Aug 18, 2009 5:24 pm
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Christian Link
United States
Basalt
Colorado
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SECRET:
Spoiler (mouseover to reveal):
I have spontaneously gone to a Junta session in costume.
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  • Posted Tue Aug 18, 2009 5:31 pm
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Dan
Canada

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cptwacky wrote:
SECRET:
Spoiler (mouseover to reveal):
I have spontaneously gone to a Junta session in costume.
Spoiler (mouseover to reveal):
I have bought military caps, dark glasses and cigars to sessions of this game.
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  • Posted Tue Aug 18, 2009 5:54 pm
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Nevin Ball
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Dallas
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I played this for the first time a couple of months ago and we had a blast. This is a game everyone should at least try once.
 
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  • Posted Wed Aug 19, 2009 7:06 pm
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3. Board Game: Magic Realm [Average Rating:7.05 Overall Rank:453]
Matt Thrower
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Rated 7.00 by 918 users.

In spite of the fact that I dislike in intensely, I think we can confirm the status of this game by acknowledging the number of home-made copies in circulation, created in defiance of the awesome number of bits and chits required for the game.

Reprint status: As far as I'm aware no-one has picked this up or is planning to. But there's always RealmSpeak.
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Moritz Eggert
Germany
Munich/Germany
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Z-Man games seems to be working on a reprint...
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  • Posted Mon Aug 17, 2009 1:49 pm
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Nigel Buckle
United Kingdom
Forest Hill
London
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wifwendell wrote:
I'm kinda curious why this is deemed ameritrash...


Well it isn't a Euro ... and not exactly a wargame either (granted you can muster up a small group of henchmen or pick up the 'war' campaign chit - but no not a wargame.

Fantasy Role Playing Game ... not really - you start fully developed at '4th' level, unless you play one of the variants where you start weaker (good luck with that, every time I played that variant I'd just die ...)

Ameri-trash - sort of, definitely got theme, definitely got lots of chrome, definitely got random dice rolls (come on how hard can it be to find this path ... ) definitely got length.

Yep, I'd say it was Ameritrash more than the other types.
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  • Posted Tue Aug 18, 2009 10:43 am
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Timothy Pride
Indonesia
Jakarta
DKI Jakarta
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Ronaldo wrote:
It is the ultimate adventure game. The ultimate fantasy game. The ultimate solo game.


QFT!
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  • Posted Thu Aug 20, 2009 2:31 am
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Troy W
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Twenty years on, I find it as maddening and brilliant as ever.
The problem is, I'm not sure if I'd prefer a FTF version over Realmspeak. The issue is that I've gotten addicted to the way Realmspeak handles setup and mechanics...so much better. And there's another problem with the board version: it ends right as you finally get an initial grasp of the situation. Playing with two or even three sets (as you can on Realmspeak) and extending the month time limit makes for a much, much better game IMO.
From what I've read about the development of the original, it was massively late because Hamblen kept fiddling with it. I'm not sure that would help any reprint efforts.
 
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  • Posted Fri Aug 21, 2009 6:57 pm
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Mark McKnight
United States
St Augustine
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A response from Z-Man Games on the Magic Realm forum on this:

"I wish it were true. I have no idea how the rumor started. I'd LOVE to reprint it (and probably have said that here and there) but there is no movement on obtaining the license at this time from the other party. I'm ready to go for it, but it's not up to me.

Zev Shlasinger, President
Z-Man Games, Inc."
 
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  • Posted Thu Jan 21, 2010 5:12 pm
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4. Board Game: Wiz-War [Average Rating:6.98 Overall Rank:543]
Matt Thrower
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Rated 7.02 by 1037 users.

Not a game I know a lot about. I have a P&P copy collecting dust in my attic, but the cost of buying eight or nine decks of playing cards and then stickering them all has really put me off ever getting to grips with actual construction of the game.

Reprint status: This has been alleged to be up for reprinting for, well, for a very long time but no reprint has appeared. For those wanting to go the P&P route there are eight albums on Artscow with all the required cards, but that many custom decks is expensive, especially without a current special offer.
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Davido
United States
Mather
California
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Tom Jolly has indicated that Wiz-War has been rescued from Chessex Purgatory and is in the hands of a "major publisher". Given Jolly's relationship w/ Fantasy Flight (Drakon, Cave Troll), the probable source is Fantasy Flight. Given their production values (e.g. Cave Troll, Red November), this is indeed a highly anticipated release if true. Also given FFG's heavy schedule (again, IF true, but those sculpts and production, take time, ya know), it is anticipated for 2010 or 2011.
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  • Posted Mon Aug 17, 2009 5:37 pm
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Freelance Police
United States
Palo Alto
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Play the game. Get your print and play printout, go to Kinko's, and have them copy the cards onto stiff paper. Myself, I added 500+ cards to the game.

Good stuff.
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  • Posted Tue Aug 18, 2009 3:43 am
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Christian Link
United States
Basalt
Colorado
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Between the other good games on the shelf a large game group seems to always overlook WizWar. And I have seen it on a few shelves. I have felt bad for it and usually play it with its owner as filler.
 
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  • Posted Tue Aug 18, 2009 5:34 pm
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Donald Cleary
United States
Bellingham
Washington
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8 decks made by Artscow may be your best option when considering construction and travel time on top of materials costs. Your lowest price with their deals will run about $40.
 
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  • Posted Tue Aug 18, 2009 5:39 pm
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Douglas Glisson
Canada

Alberta
www.scottsigler.com/gfl
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My set ran to about $80 just for cards and Avery stickers. Not to mention printer cartridges. Then I bought $80 of mini's to rep it right. They have yet to be painted and I can't find a "Buck" anywhere. It was my first PnP game and took quite a while to make. Have been toying with the ArtsCow thing and can't wait to grab a copy WHEN Tom Jolly gets it re-released. After making this and playing it twice with my son I went officially "nuts" buying board games as my wife and son claim. I now have over $600 of games I haven't even managed to get to the table once yet. Obsess much? I'm kinda an all or nuthin kinda guy.

Thank you Wiz-War for bringing games back into my life.

Kraken Fan #69
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  • Edited Wed Aug 19, 2009 2:21 am
  • Posted Wed Aug 19, 2009 2:19 am
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5. Board Game: Gunslinger [Average Rating:6.97 Overall Rank:720]
Matt Thrower
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Rated 7.03 by 507 users.

Another game I know little about, and a mild surprise to find it here. One of the things I think is interesting about this list is the way a diversity of themes is represented, almost like the best game for every theme almost guarantees classic status. Wild West games are still few and far between, which may help account for the continued popularity of this title.

Reprint status: None planned as far as I know. There are albums for the cards on Artscow, but there's a lot of other material you'd need to paste up as well.
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Ray
United States
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Illinois
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Part of a line of boardgames that evolved out of miniature rules. However instead of the moveplot logs that were popular in the earlier days (from Wooden Ships & Iron Men to Star Fleet Battles) cards could be stacked up to plan out your actions.

Thus Gunslinger is the earlier better made (imho) version of RoboRally.
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  • Posted Mon Aug 17, 2009 4:07 pm
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Dan Lokemoen


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You can try the Cyberboard version before you decide to build your own copy. I think this game is pretty awesome. I have played dozens of "programmed movement" games, including Robo Rally, and this is the best. It also features an excellent combat system that has much more going for it than a roll-to-hit-roll-to-damage hit point style system.
 
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  • Posted Sat Aug 22, 2009 11:45 am
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6. Board Game: Cosmic Encounter [Average Rating:6.99 Overall Rank:361]
Matt Thrower
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Rated 7.04 by 3067 users.

I'm surprised not to see this further up the list, but I think it's probably been a victim of the database entry split. This is the first game that I think everyone was expecting to see make this list.

Reprint status: Currently in-print from FFG. A few minor tweaks to the rules and card decks has made their edition very popular, but only time (and in all probability some expansions) will tell whether it's going to be the definitive edition.
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Snowball
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This game is one category onto itself.
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  • Posted Mon Aug 17, 2009 2:30 pm
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David Roe
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lestat2099 wrote:
rri1 wrote:
Cosmic Encounter is not Ameritrash


1. It's not about farming, pleasing a king, production or economy.
2. It has a theme that is congruent with the mechanics
3. It includes direct confrontation. Confrontation as in: "I'll f***ing kill you if you ally with (insert name)" not as in: "I'll take the family growth action to block it from (insert name)"
4. The players interact with each other.
5. It has plastic
6. There's a card that says "you can cheat", that means the game is not "neatly balanced" or "elegant"

Should I say more?



Shouldn't your avatar contain a gurning Mark E. Smith?
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  • Posted Tue Aug 18, 2009 1:28 pm
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Markus Pausch
Germany
Hamburg
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lestat2099 wrote:
rri1 wrote:
Cosmic Encounter is not Ameritrash


1. It's not about farming, pleasing a king, production or economy.
2. It has a theme that is congruent with the mechanics
3. It includes direct confrontation. Confrontation as in: "I'll f***ing kill you if you ally with (insert name)" not as in: "I'll take the family growth action to block it from (insert name)"
4. The players interact with each other.
5. It has plastic
6. There's a card that says "you can cheat", that means the game is not "neatly balanced" or "elegant"

Should I say more?




7.It's fun to play. As opposed to brood over a game until you face gets red.
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  • Posted Tue Aug 18, 2009 4:49 pm
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Nate Downs
United States
Granville
Ohio
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lestat2099 wrote:
rri1 wrote:
Cosmic Encounter is not Ameritrash


1. It's not about farming, pleasing a king, production or economy.
2. It has a theme that is congruent with the mechanics
3. It includes direct confrontation. Confrontation as in: "I'll f***ing kill you if you ally with (insert name)" not as in: "I'll take the family growth action to block it from (insert name)"
4. The players interact with each other.
5. It has plastic
6. There's a card that says "you can cheat", that means the game is not "neatly balanced" or "elegant"

Should I say more?



Wow. By these criteria, Battlestar Galactica makes for a nice Euro!
 
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  • Posted Tue Aug 18, 2009 8:13 pm
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Freelance Police
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casperthegoth wrote:
Wow. By these criteria, Battlestar Galactica makes for a nice Euro!


Actually, the predominantly AT! FFG games *do* have their Euro mechanics. The designer notes of Christian T. Peterson's Twilight Imperium, 3rd edition, acknowledges several Eurogames for its revised mechanics. Battlestar Galactica designer Corey Konieczka's Starcraft game uses a "last in / first out" mechanic that, IMO, is a clear influence of European mechanics. Eric Lang has created mostly AT! games, yet, one of his earliest games, Senator, is definitely more Euro than AT!

EDIT: If you want to see all the plastic hoo-hah AT! is known for, just check out the Avalon Hill edition. And the West End edition had tiddly winks! Woohoo! Tiddly winks!
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  • Edited Sun Aug 23, 2009 10:09 pm
  • Posted Wed Aug 19, 2009 2:01 am
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7. Board Game: Ikusa [Average Rating:7.06 Overall Rank:316]
Matt Thrower
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Rated 7.05 by 2350 users.

This is actually the only one of the old MB big-box games that met the criteria for the list. Tried to play it once when all the players were dreadfully hungover and it went down like a lead balloon and it's never been bought out since. Lesson: games tried under less-than-ideal conditions can put you off the title for life whether deserving or not .. don't do it!

Reprint status: None, as far as I'm aware, and there's no way on earth this is a possible candidate for print and play.
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**PUNKLE JOSH** [Here to have fun!]
Canada
Cambridge
Ontario
"The next best thing to playing and winning is playing and losing." --A. Alvarez
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This game, more than any other, is responsible for turning me into the avid ATer that I am today! arrrh
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  • Posted Tue Aug 18, 2009 1:45 am
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selwyth wrote:
Get with the program, take your 4-5 players and break out Shogun instead!


Shogun is a very good game - I'm not going to say anything negative about it. But suggesting that Shogun is a replacement for Samurai Swords? They are just so very different...
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  • Posted Tue Aug 18, 2009 7:21 pm
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Bryce Nakagawa
United States

California
selwyth wrote:
Get with the program, take your 4-5 players and break out Shogun instead!


Wasn't this game originally published under the title Shogun?
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  • Posted Tue Aug 18, 2009 9:15 pm
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Jason Reid
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Indeed it was. I got a copy of Milton Bradley's "Shogun" after getting straight A's in 5th grade Got quite a few plays over the years. No clue where it went
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  • Posted Wed Aug 19, 2009 2:11 am
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Will DeMorris
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El Paso
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selwyth wrote:
Get with the program, take your 4-5 players and break out Shogun instead!

I was skeptical, and I think my balls fell off when I held those cubes for the first time, but I have been brainwashed ever since. zombie



While they both may be set in feudal Japan, Samurai Swords and Shogun are very different games.


-Will
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  • Posted Wed Aug 19, 2009 2:48 pm
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8. Board Game: Survive: Escape from Atlantis! [Average Rating:7.38 Overall Rank:141]
Matt Thrower
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Rated 7.12 by 1215 users.

Is this more of a family game than an AT-game? I think it's both: no title which features quite so much screw-your-neighbour and hot monster-on-monster action ought to be left out of the AT canon.

Reprint status: None, as far as I know, but copies of the very similar Escape from Atlantis aren't hard to find on EBay or in second-hand shops.
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Pete McNamara
United States
Evanston
Illinois
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This is a great game due to the hidden elements of the game - you don't know the value of the people being "rescued" and you don't know when the game will end.

 
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  • Posted Mon Aug 17, 2009 4:00 pm
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Charles Hasegawa
United States
Mesa
Arizona
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That depends on the version - a lot of the versions didn't have values on the player pawns.
 
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  • Posted Mon Aug 17, 2009 4:04 pm
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Ron Pfeiffer
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Matt I aggree with you on this one. Its fun because of the screwage factor. Thats what makes it belong on this list!!!
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  • Posted Mon Aug 17, 2009 11:21 pm
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Ray Swan
United States
Corydon
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This is clearly a Euro style game in disguise.
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  • Posted Tue Aug 18, 2009 12:39 pm
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Todd N.
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Medford
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Harv wrote:
Tatsu wrote:
That depends on the version - a lot of the versions didn't have values on the player pawns.


E.g., the UK version Escape from Atlantis! I keep meaning to take a sharpie pen and write values on the bottoms of my pawns. Unfortunately, there are a different number of pawns to Survive: Escape from Atlantis!, so the distribution of values will have to be adjusted. Any suggestions?


I just reduced the amount of pawns used to 10 just like in Survive! and thus keeping the original numbering convention. I also applied small colored dots to the bottom of my people and wrote on those with a Sharpie so i did not have to write on the actual playing pieces.
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  • Posted Fri Aug 21, 2009 2:48 pm
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9. Board Game: Kremlin [Average Rating:7.07 Overall Rank:370]
Matt Thrower
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Rated 7.12 by 1292 users.

The lasting appeal of this is undoubtedly connected to the sheer amount of viciousness it managed to condense into a remarkably short, simple and playable game.

Reprint status: It seems to be something of an open secret that this is actually still in print, albiet not in English. Morgana Spiel still publish a German version, and paste-ups into English are not overly onerous if you don't want to pay top dollar on Ebay.
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  • 11 comments [Hide]
Stven Carlberg
United States
Atlanta
Georgia
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Designed by Europeans, set in Europe, no dice, no direct conflict.... How is this not a Eurogame?
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  • Posted Mon Aug 17, 2009 4:10 pm
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Michael Buccheri
United States
Glen Arm
Maryland
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ssmooth wrote:
kabutor wrote:


If someone thinks that sending one of your politicians to Siberia is not direct conflict, or maybe the assasination attemp card is not a direct conflict thing, well then you can play Diplomacy as a party game.

Also Kremlin uses a D20


The fact remains that the designer of the game, Urs Hostettler, is Swiss. Kremlin was on the (it says here) list of Recommended Games from the Spiel des Jahres panel in 1987. Those are both good reasons for regarding it as a Eurogame.


Ameritrash has nothing to do with where the game was developed and the nationality of the designer but with the play style, This game is all Ameritrash in the way it plays. As noted above with its Direct conflict and die rolling. Also while plastic army men are featured in a lot of AT games they are not essential, a classic example being Gammarauders.

-M
 
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  • Edited Tue Aug 18, 2009 4:16 pm
  • Posted Tue Aug 18, 2009 4:12 pm
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Stven Carlberg
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Atlanta
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Notes to self: Never get involved in a land war in Asia. Never get involved in a discussion of what "Ameritrash" means.
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  • Posted Tue Aug 18, 2009 4:56 pm
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Andreas Johansson
Sweden
Linköping
I spent 200 GG and all I got was this lousy overtext!
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Funkiller. And here I was about to prove Settlers of Catan is ameritrash.
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  • Posted Wed Aug 19, 2009 9:16 am
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mike majorowski
United States
Quincy
Massachusetts
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In light of Kremlin wouldn't Aquire be a euro game? I mean the theme is paper thin, no player elimination, small amount of conflict, (no more than settlers), and relativly short playing time. BTW Aquire is my favorite game and makes me proud to be an American!
 
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  • Posted Wed Aug 19, 2009 9:34 pm
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10. Board Game: The Fury of Dracula [Average Rating:7.04 Overall Rank:633]
Matt Thrower
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Rated 7.15 by 623 users.

A personal favourite of mine, the ongoing lure of this title is its uniqueness. Whilst clearly derived from Scotland Yard the added layers of theme, complexity and interaction/co-operation created a truly unusual and atmospheric play experience.

Reprint status: currently in-print from FFG although it's interesting to note that this is the one title from this list which underwent very significant changes during the update. This stemmed from a perhaps understandable frustration with the way the victory conditions in the original could lead to dull games, and a far less understandable irritation with the ability of the Dracula player to cheat. Most people seem to believe the changes make the game better, although they also make it slightly clunkier and more complex. A small minority - myself included - continue to prefer the original.
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**PUNKLE JOSH** [Here to have fun!]
Canada
Cambridge
Ontario
"The next best thing to playing and winning is playing and losing." --A. Alvarez
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I've never played the original, but as long and fiddly as the newer edition undoubtedly is, my wife and I both love it!
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  • Posted Tue Aug 18, 2009 1:47 am
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Quote:
A small minority - myself included - continue to prefer the original.


Hear, hear!

While the original game could've been tweaked to good effect, I think the major overhaul Fantasy Flight gave it was too much change for too little benefit. There are some cool parts to the new game (and the components are BEAUTIFUL) but it ended up introducing new problems for every fix they added, while sacrificing some of the fun in the process...

Both are still good, but I prefer the original.
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  • Posted Tue Aug 18, 2009 7:27 pm
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11. Board Game: Merchant of Venus [Average Rating:7.22 Overall Rank:269]
Matt Thrower
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Rated 7.16 by 1208 users.

The highest-rated game on the list that I'm unfamiliar with, this game went on to spawn a whole genre that actually includes very few Amertrash titles: pick-up-and-deliver.

Reprint status: None so far as I know. However, the files for a visual re-design of the components are available right here on BGG and there are public albums for the cards on Artscow. The effort involved in putting it all together would be pretty considerable though.
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Jesse Murphy
United States
Biloxi
Mississippi
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Duck Dealer seems to offer a very similar experience, based on reading the reviews up so far.
 
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  • Posted Tue Aug 18, 2009 5:05 pm
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Ken Waters
United States
Aloha
Oregon
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MattDP wrote:
The highest-rated game on the list that I'm unfamiliar with, this game went on to spawn a whole genre that actually includes very few Amertrash titles: pick-up-and-deliver.


Apparently you're also unfamiliar with the pick-up-and-deliver games that were published before Merchant of Venus, such as the Empire Builder series from earlier in the 80s, all the way back to Pirate and Traveler from 1911.
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  • Edited Thu Aug 20, 2009 4:03 pm
  • Posted Wed Aug 19, 2009 11:46 pm
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Scott Everts
United States
Foothill Ranch
California
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Bulwyf wrote:
jmmurphy wrote:
Duck Dealer seems to offer a very similar experience, based on reading the reviews up so far.



Having played both I think Duck Dealer is a poor substitute.


-Will

I was wondering about Duck Dealer and how it compared. I've thought a few times about buying it but was turned off by the lackluster components. I actually think the original MoV looks better, at least it has style. Duck Dealer looks like it was made entirely with clipart!

I've thought about building a new edition of MoV with all the wonderful art but its a daunting task especially since I have an original in great shape.

Would really love to see this reprinted officially and hope if anyone does they consider contacting Michael Christopher and use his fantastic art.
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  • Posted Sat Aug 22, 2009 9:33 am
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Dan Lokemoen


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Recently played Duck Dealer twice. Although I absolutely loved it, I suspect it has poor replay value. In other words, once you figure out Duck Dealer, the thrill may be gone. If I had a copy of Duck Dealer and MoV and I had to sell one, it would be Duck Dealer.
 
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  • Posted Sat Aug 22, 2009 11:48 am
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Rob Nutt
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Ontario
Oregon
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ScottE wrote:
Bulwyf wrote:
jmmurphy wrote:
Duck Dealer seems to offer a very similar experience, based on reading the reviews up so far.



Having played both I think Duck Dealer is a poor substitute.


-Will

I was wondering about Duck Dealer and how it compared. I've thought a few times about buying it but was turned off by the lackluster components. I actually think the original MoV looks better, at least it has style. Duck Dealer looks like it was made entirely with clipart!

I've thought about building a new edition of MoV with all the wonderful art but its a daunting task especially since I have an original in great shape.

Would really love to see this reprinted officially and hope if anyone does they consider contacting Michael Christopher and use his fantastic art.


I undertook the immense project of DIY for Merchant of Venus. I even purchased Star Wars Ships, the collectable ones, and used the lesser known ships as pawns for the game. My DIY version is indeed the Michael Christopher one. All I can say is this man is talented. He has done some other work as well, and it is amazing. If no one has seen his work, and you are interested in this game, then I can't agree more about looking into his set. His files for download are available right here on the Geek. What are you waiting for! Go look at them now, take a week or 2 to put the game together, and play this beautiful and awesome game.
 
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  • Posted Sun Aug 23, 2009 12:16 am
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12. Board Game: Diplomacy [Average Rating:7.12 Overall Rank:246]
Matt Thrower
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Rated 7.17 by 4514 users.

Come on, you were waiting for this one to show up, weren't you?

Reprint status: In print, and second-hand editions are easy to come by. Personally I like the older editions with the wooden pieces. It's finding the time and players to play this that's the problem, not the game itself!
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Adam D.
United States
Suquamish
Washington
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I guess it's time to stop wondering what "ameritrash" refers to (Diplomacy?) and just enjoy some games. meeple
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  • Posted Mon Aug 17, 2009 11:13 pm
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Sandy Petersen
United States
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My love of Diplomacy does not obscure the fact that it hardly seems to bear the stigmata of Ameritrash. (Note: I love ameritrash.)

B ecause of all the conflict? But Chess features direct opposition.

Perhaps the poster assumes that all games fall into one of these two categories (clearly false) and therefore since this isn't truly Euro, it must be the "opposite".
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  • Posted Tue Aug 18, 2009 7:29 pm
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Freelance Police
United States
Palo Alto
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Well...

BGG is hardly the place that's representative of all hobby games. There's clearly a Euro bent, so I'm not surprised that games with both AT! and Euro mechanics are deemed as AT!

As for chess vs. Diplomacy, any game that's two-player has opposition. But chess certainly does not have the backstabbing, betrayal, and Surgeon General-level "enemy for life" that Diplomacy has.

And any game with a picture that has a sword sticking through a guy's gut -- that's Ameritrash! laugh
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  • Posted Wed Aug 19, 2009 2:11 am
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Stew Woods
Australia
Wellard
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Geez! Talk about retro-fitting the term!

"Let's see. What games of the last 50 years clearly aren't Euros? Ok, we'll round up the best of them and call them Ameritrash!"

"Brilliant!"

shake
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  • Posted Fri Aug 21, 2009 2:46 am
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Dan Lokemoen


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Yeah, Chess is pretty Ameritrashy, let's face it.
 
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  • Posted Sat Aug 22, 2009 11:49 am
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13. Board Game: Titan [Average Rating:7.08 Overall Rank:317]
 
Matt Thrower
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Rated 7.19 by 1938 users.

The tagline of "fantasy monster slugathon" suits this down to a tee, but many player are amazed how much tactical and strategic depth this title reveals once you're past the initial impression of buckets of dice. A very innovative design, this has left clear hallmarks on a whole chain of design evolution which includes Magic: the Gathering.

Reprint status: Currently available from Valley Games, and a spankingly lovely edition it is too. But avoid the "expansion" Titan figurines!
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Dan
Canada

Alberta
Yeah... I see what you did there.
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I have great high-school memories of rolling 14+ 6-siders with my serpent hiding in the grass.
 
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  • Posted Tue Aug 18, 2009 6:01 pm
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xx
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Orange Cat X: Are you sure you're talking about a board game?

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  • Edited Fri Aug 21, 2009 7:24 pm
  • Posted Fri Aug 21, 2009 7:23 pm
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14. Board Game: Tales of the Arabian Nights [Average Rating:7.21 Overall Rank:603]
Matt Thrower
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Rated 7.44 by 457 users.

I was very surprised to see how highly rated the original of this game actually was. However, the relatively limited number of users rating it made me a little wary of assigning it to the very top tier of these classic games.

Reprint status: Revised and updated edition currently availble from Z-Man games. As if you didn't know. Downloadable material from the Z-man website means that the new edition does everything the old one does and more, and is the one to get if you want to play.
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Don Weed
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Broomfield
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A "choose your own adventure" spin-off from the novels you read as a kid. There is an illusion of some control by making blind choices of reactions not knowing which could be more beneficial in the long run. It can be fun with the right crowd. It's as fun as watching any old movie serial when the protagonist gets into one predicament after another. More of a somewhat random 'story-telling' game which is all it was ever meant to be. No deep strategy but it is entertaining.
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  • Posted Mon Aug 17, 2009 8:40 pm
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Donald Cleary
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I've never played any of the variants beyond the basic story driven mode, but they do exist.
 
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  • Posted Tue Aug 18, 2009 5:37 pm
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Marc Johnston
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statman8 wrote:
A "choose your own adventure" spin-off from the novels you read as a kid. There is an illusion of some control by making blind choices of reactions not knowing which could be more beneficial in the long run. It can be fun with the right crowd. It's as fun as watching any old movie serial when the protagonist gets into one predicament after another. More of a somewhat random 'story-telling' game which is all it was ever meant to be. No deep strategy but it is entertaining.


Couldn't have put it better. Why there are so many fans of this one in my group I can't understand. I played the game expecting some sort of game experience and was thoroughly let down.
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  • Posted Wed Aug 19, 2009 1:22 am
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Freelance Police
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Marky_marc wrote:
Why there are so many fans of this one in my group I can't understand.


Well, let's face it. There aren't too many exotic "Arabian Nights" storytelling games, while adventure games are a dime a dozen, and another farming game is being designed right as we speak...
 
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  • Posted Wed Aug 19, 2009 8:41 am
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Nate Merchant
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Marky_marc wrote:
statman8 wrote:
A "choose your own adventure" spin-off from the novels you read as a kid. There is an illusion of some control by making blind choices of reactions not knowing which could be more beneficial in the long run. It can be fun with the right crowd. It's as fun as watching any old movie serial when the protagonist gets into one predicament after another. More of a somewhat random 'story-telling' game which is all it was ever meant to be. No deep strategy but it is entertaining.


Couldn't have put it better. Why there are so many fans of this one in my group I can't understand. I played the game expecting some sort of game experience and was thoroughly let down.


Me, too! Gorgeous edition and art, but choices? gameplay? skill? ability? To be blunt: *I* won this game in a rout. You know something's off if that's the case.
 
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  • Posted Thu Aug 20, 2009 3:07 am
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15. Board Game: Civilization [Average Rating:7.57 Overall Rank:82]
Matt Thrower
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Rated 7.58 by 3197 users.

There's something heartwarming about the way in which the original civilization-building game has outlasted so very many attempts to "improve" or "streamline" it into something it isn't. Sometimes you just have to accept that if you want a game that charts the rise and fall of entire cultures over the course of millennia, it's going to be complex and long.

Reprint status: None, but second hand copies are not awesomely difficult to find.
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Jeroen van der Valk
Netherlands
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Bravo, succinctly put on why this classic does indeed endure, though it undoubtedly isn't played as much as it used to be.
 
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  • Posted Mon Aug 17, 2009 10:29 pm
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Eric Brosius
Spain
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Sam and Max wrote:
Wargames are a subcategory of Ameritrash


If you're focusing on whether an 88mm armor-piercing shell can penetrate the frontal armor of a Sherman tank when striking at a 37 degree angle, it's a wargame. If you're rolling a big bucket of dice and hoping for 6's, it's Ameritrash. Not the same thing at all.
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  • Posted Wed Aug 19, 2009 2:00 am
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Ralph T
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Civilization has a lot more in common with Through the Ages: A Story of Civilization than any single identifiable Ameritrash game. There are no dice in the limited combat in the game, it's even less AT than Small World.
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  • Edited Wed Aug 19, 2009 2:55 am
  • Posted Wed Aug 19, 2009 2:54 am
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Alex
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Eric Brosius wrote:
Sam and Max wrote:
Wargames are a subcategory of Ameritrash


If you're focusing on whether an 88mm armor-piercing shell can penetrate the frontal armor of a Sherman tank when striking at a 37 degree angle, it's a wargame. If you're rolling a big bucket of dice and hoping for 6's, it's Ameritrash. Not the same thing at all.


So EastFront II, Here I Stand and Hammer of the Scotts are Ameritrash? ConSims are a subset of wargames.

Some Ameritrash games can lean towards the wargame category and the line bewteen Amritrash and wargame can get fuzzy (e.g., Axis and Allies or Fortress America).

What the definition of a wargame encompasses can spread as much vitriol as what the definition of Ameritrash encompasses. However, I think there has to be a breaking point of the wargame definition more towards the line between EFII/HIS/HoTs and Nexus Ops than towards the line between EFII/HIS/HoTs and Advanced Squad Leader.
 
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  • Posted Wed Aug 19, 2009 5:27 pm
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Richard Skinner
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evilm2twjunkie wrote:
Sam and Max wrote:
evilm2twjunkie wrote:
Sam and Max wrote:
ralpher wrote:
How is this one Ameritrash?


Big-ass rulebook, craploads of counters, and, by the time you're done, Kneizer has put out three more games.


That's a wargame, not Ameritrash.


Wargames are a subcategory of Ameritrash in the same way that breasts are a subcategory of American culture.


No they aren't. Whilst they are related (they both are thematically heavy and encourage conflict)...


Are breasts thematically heavy? I would certainly agree they encourage conflict, though I think they do a lot to soothe and reduce it too. I think they are theme-free, though, unless you count bras or tight t-shirts.

 
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  • Posted Thu Aug 20, 2009 2:53 pm
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16. Board Game: The Republic of Rome [Average Rating:7.62 Overall Rank:125]
Matt Thrower
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Rated 7.60 by 1283 users.

For me, this was the biggest surprise of the list. Not a game that gets bandied about all that much when people are talking about remaking the old classics, but one that should be. The "single winner, but you'd better co-operate else the game kills you" mechanic remains relatively unique.

Reprint status: Valley games currently working on a reprint. Regular updates keep coming out, so although it may take a while, it seems likey to get there in the end.
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Michael Buccheri
United States
Glen Arm
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Also available in a re-theme as Galactic Destiny.

-M
 
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  • Posted Tue Aug 18, 2009 4:06 pm
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Dan Taylor
United States
Unionville
Virginia
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Galactic Destiny broke my heart. I still threaten to "tinker" with it and release the fantastic inner game that lurks inside it.
 
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  • Posted Thu Aug 20, 2009 12:05 pm
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Dan Lokemoen


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Galactic Destiny and Republic of Rome? You misspelled the word "stinker."
 
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  • Posted Sat Aug 22, 2009 11:52 am
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17. Board Game: Space Hulk [Average Rating:7.45 Overall Rank:170]
Matt Thrower
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Rated 7.65 by 1787 users.

This at #2 is something more of a surprise. It's a great game, certainly, but I'd have thought that it's relative rarity, difficulty of home construction, 2-player limitation and semi-automated Genestealer strategy would have forced it down the list.

Reprint status: Just confirmed by GW, although there seems to be no information on what, if any, changes have been made or what edition the reprint is based on. Pre-order yours now from the GW site.
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Greg White
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the components of the reprint include a sand timer, so at the very least it has the first ed rules as a touch stone.
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  • Posted Mon Aug 17, 2009 10:14 pm
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Christian Jorgensen
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They are reprinting Spacehulk,
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  • Posted Tue Aug 18, 2009 12:04 am
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Michael Buccheri
United States
Glen Arm
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Available now for pre-order ships sept. 5th

http://www.games-workshop.com/gws/catalog/productDetail.jsp?...

-M
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  • Edited Tue Aug 18, 2009 4:04 pm
  • Posted Tue Aug 18, 2009 3:59 pm
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Scott Muir
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Farmington
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Available for pre-order...but cost $100 !!!! cry
 
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  • Posted Thu Aug 20, 2009 8:17 pm
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Fritz Mulnar
Germany
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i suspect there will be a "normal"edition in some time. as this is limited etc. sauron
 
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  • Posted Thu Aug 20, 2009 8:27 pm
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Sean Todd
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superjosef wrote:
i suspect there will be a "normal"edition in some time. as this is limited etc. sauron


From the website:

Games Workshop wrote:
This is a one-off, limited edition product, with a single print run. If you have any interest in owning your own Space Hulk, I strongly suggest you advance order a copy today. Do not wait, because when they're gone, they're gone (although one of the Studio team did hint at a doing 50th anniversary edition in 2039). And DO NOT put this on your wish list, forget about it and expect to get one under the tree at Christmas, because even Santa has his limits.


Feel free to add as many grains of salt as you like.
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  • Posted Thu Aug 20, 2009 11:51 pm
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18. Board Game: Dune [Average Rating:7.63 Overall Rank:88]
Matt Thrower
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Rated 7.68 by 2079 users.

Everyone was expecting this at #1, right?

Reprint status: Allegedly FFG is going to be reprinting this, but set in it's Twilight Imperium universe. Some reports are suggesting a 2010/2011 release and a game that is substantially different from the original but based on roughly the same mechanics.
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Chester Ogborn
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This is probably my favorite Ameritrash title....but I'm pretty unexcited about the proposed reprint. The theme drips from this one, but I doubt it would hold much appeal for me as a re-theme.

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  • Posted Mon Aug 17, 2009 9:52 pm
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Will DeMorris
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El Paso
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Peerchen wrote:
fuzzyfife wrote:
I would second cornjob's comments. The theme is part of why this game remains a favorite. Changing to a different venue will lessen my desire to play the game.


Which, while understanbdle, is quite ironic, since the prototype was (according to the designewrs) set in ancient rome...




Very true. But the combination of theme and mechanics in this title clicked in a magical way. So much so, that I couldn't imagine playing this game without the Dune theme.


-Will
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  • Posted Wed Aug 19, 2009 2:42 pm
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Bulwyf wrote:
But the combination of theme and mechanics in this title clicked in a magical way. So much so, that I couldn't imagine playing this game without the Dune theme.

That's because when you play it without the Dune theme it becomes obvious that the game isn't that good. Except for the theme I can't think of a reason to play this over FFG's version of Cosmic Encounter.

I'm optimistic about the FFG update to the Dune rules considering their treatment of CE. I think Dune's game system has a bunch of brilliant ideas but the way they fit together needs a serious overhaul. I'm a bit bummed that they are replacing a very distinctive theme with a generic space opera theme. I'd have preferred something a bit more unique.

Here's hoping FGG doesn't change the Borderlands theme.
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  • Posted Wed Aug 19, 2009 9:53 pm
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Scott Muir
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Without the DUNE theme and just based on the mechanics ? Not interested. It's just not the same. shake

Re-themeing this game is like raping and taking a dump on the original.
 
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  • Edited Thu Aug 20, 2009 8:21 pm
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Dan Lokemoen


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I like this game and don't give a rat's bum about the theme. I mean who cares about a novel where a high school quarterback wins the big game after the tragic death of his coach (who is also his father), then gives his letterman's jacket to the head cheerleader for the other team, but still sleeps with the slutty head cheerleader from his own team (who is also his mother)?

I also never understood the comparison to Cosmic Encounter. Dune is elegant, CE is some decent ideas cobbled together into a big fugly mess.
 
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  • Edited Mon Aug 24, 2009 6:43 am
  • Posted Sat Aug 22, 2009 12:00 pm
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22 comments [Hide]
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Davido
United States
Mather
California
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I'm pleased to see Richard Hamblen copping 3 out of 18 entries (While I don't see Magic Realm, Gunslinger, Merchants of Venus as classic AT, recognition is recognition). I didn't bother to go to each game entry, so real quick, any other designers have more than 1 entry on this list?

And yes, I have enjoyed over half of these games 'back in the day'
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  • Posted Mon Aug 17, 2009 2:54 pm
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Mark Jackson
United States
Fresno
California
Am I a man or am I a muppet? If I'm a muppet then I'm a very manly muppet!
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hotc wrote:
MattDP wrote:
Dungeonquest didn't make the "quality" criteria - by a fair distance.


And in addition to its randomness, the game (which we refer to around here as "Everybody Dies", by the way) has been superseded by other, less random, higher quality games of the same sort. Descent is probably the best exemplar of DungeonQuest replacements.


There hasn't been a replacement for Dungeonquest that I'm aware of. Descent takes 3+ hours to play... DQ tops out @ 75 minutes if everyone manages to survive. Drakon is possibly closer, but it has problems of its own.

Walter - Descent is the best exemplar of D&D replacements for non-RPGers.
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  • Posted Tue Aug 18, 2009 11:50 pm
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Mark W
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hotc wrote:

And in addition to its randomness, the game (which we refer to around here as "Everybody Dies", by the way) has been superseded by other, less random, higher quality games of the same sort. Descent is probably the best exemplar of DungeonQuest replacements.

Like some other classic games listed above, the reason they're not reprinted or popular is in part because the hobby (attention span, component quality, game design) have moved on.


Descent isn't much like Dungeonquest, except maybe thematically. It's a deeper, tactical game, with a DM vs. the heroes, it has a completely different feel, and literally takes about 10 times longer. If anything supersedes Dungeonquest, it would be something more like Dungeoneer...which no one seems to actually play anymore, yet I still hear stories about how much fun players - even newbies to the game who have probably played "superior" games - are having with Dungeonquest 20+ years later. (Very recent example)
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  • Posted Wed Aug 19, 2009 4:27 am
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Got two game tables and a microphone
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In honor of Geekdo: No D and D?
 
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  • Posted Wed Aug 19, 2009 8:20 am
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Железный комиссар
United States
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Wisconsin
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Harv wrote:
manowarplayer wrote:
Ameritrash is a term that no one knows the meaning of.


As with any word, there is no 'the meaning', just many different meanings. My brain hurts trying to comprehend the minds of people who can't handle the idea that everything has multiple meanings. For goodness' sake, we may as well stop calling it 'Board Game Geek' because we can't determine a SINGLE US GOVERNMENT APPROVED meaning for 'board game' and 'geek'! You're geeks, people: use your own brains to explore this stuff! If someone tells you what something 'means', run away quickly and do your own research!

Rant over.


OTOH, I've never seen an intelligible definition of Ameritrash, and I've never seen anyone agree on what it means. It goes way, way beyond the standard variations in language.
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  • Posted Wed Aug 19, 2009 7:16 pm
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