Twilight Imperium 3rd Edition | BoardGameGeek

Session: Twilight Imperium 3rd Edition:: Conquering the galaxy for the first time...

tlnordin — Tue, 10 Nov 2009 02:55:07 +0000

Since I bought Twilight Imperium 3rd Edition for my birthday in September, the itchiness to play it had been seriously growing. It was kind of like what happened to my feet when living in the dorms my freshman year of college. But that might be a different post. Anyhow, after sending out invites and coordinating dates well in advance, I finally managed to get 5 other friends together for the monster of epic awesomeness that is TI3. This is a report on what happened, to varying degrees of detail based on whatever highlights I can recall a day later.

I tried to read as little as possible about strategy before hand, so as not to have too big an edge over anyone else. Also, just about everyone took the time to read the rules or watch the tutorial videos to some extent, which I didn't expect and really helped in running the game.

Around the Table
After rolling for initial selection and seating, the players, in order were:

1. Jon, Emirates of Hacan
2. Elizabeth, The Naalu Collective (I gave up the chance at this position not to sit between Jon and Matt M, who would've immediately ganged up on me).
3. Matt M. The Universities of Jol-Nar
4. Me, The Mentak Coalition
5. Tony, the Federation of Sol
6. Matt N. The L1z1x Mindnet

This is a picture of us in midgame, taken from my seat (4).
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Opening Setup
While the universe was very heavy with planets toward the side of the
board from between the Matts and leaning my way, I was effectively barred from getting to Mecatol Rex due to a triple wall of Nebula, Asteroid Field, and Supernova blocking me out. Fortunately, my secret objective was Focused, control 4 planets of a single tech specialty. So no need for MR! Even better, two blue specialty planets bordering my homeworld and another one system off, with the 4th two more away (but through the Federation's home). Others immediately began grousing about their secret objectives (of course without revealing them).

Secret Objectives
Jon: Merciless - Take control of neighbor's planet that holds their last space dock (UNMET)

Elizabeth: Master of Ships - Control MR and have 8 capital ships there (UNMET)

Matt M.: Diversified - Control MR and have 2 tech advances in 3 colors (MET I mean, come on, he WAS Jol-Nar, how could he not)

Me: Focused - 4 planets of a single specialty (MET)

Tony: Industrial - Control MR, all three space docks and all 5 dreadnoughts on the board (MET)

Matt N.: Usurper (I think) - Control MR and have 6 ground forces there (UNMET)

In game highlights, by player
Matt N. Launched out early to take planets near Tony and lost his dreadnought immediately due to incredibly poor rolls (three consecutive misses). This put a damper on him for a long time, as he lost all but two planets while he tried to reproduce an armada. By the time he got around to getting a War Sun, he was too far behind to be a threat to either neighbor. Not out of it entirely, but left grumpy, that's for sure. He ended with 6 points.

Jon attacked Elizabeth early (turn 2) in an attempt to meet his secret objective, but found himself the target of the rest of the galaxy's wrath as the early leader. Strangely, even though he was conquering many, many planets and leaving them unoccupied, no one rushed in to steal them. He was resource rich for a good deal of the game. I can assure you that if I were not on the other side of the galaxy I'd have been pouncing on those planets. He was the first to qualify for any public objective, and made one every round thereafter. Add in 4 points from the ISC, and you've got a winner...?

Matt M., the Jol-Nar, was resource poor but tech rich from his special ability. He charged through the wormhole and across the galaxy to head off Jon early, but chickened out after losing some fighter support. Later, he convinced Tony that since he had completed his secret objective, his best bet was to leaver MR relatively unguarded and hole up for the rest of the game. Of course, who was excited to swoop in and claim MR from him? Matt! But leaving his home planet unguarded while I built up a massive fleet wasn't great. I took one of his home planets late and was able to get the diplomacy strategy to head off his warfare. His lack of resources cost him the ability to be much of a military threat.

I took a lot of planets in around my home world and began to amass a fleet to grind through Tony's system. Although when I finally attacked with my War Sun and a big supporting fleet, he played the action cards that gave all his cruisers a hit... and he had 5. Bye bye, fighters!

My biggest mistake was letting a turn go by and getting antimass deflectors instead of a third yellow or red tech and not taking the 3 tech advances of a single color. Had I done this rather than antimass deflectors, I would have eventually won. As it was, I went from worst to temporarily first as I made it to 9 points by crushing the influence of my partners on the final stage II objective.

Tony hunkered down and built up a big fleet, getting all his dreadnoughts out, but completely ignored technology. He also allowed me to build a space dock in a system right next to his home planet. Once I got the War Sun, I scooped up his home world and help him out of making any objectives for a round on my way to getting my secret objective. I gave it back the next turn, but it was enough. Nonetheless, Tony ended with 8 points and the initiative card (it got skipped by Matt M. and I because of our need for warfare and diplomacy, respectively). Had the game lasted one more turn, he would have won, as Imperium Rex was the final objective card, and the game ended in turn 12.

Elizabeth got pity from everyone after Jon attacked her early. She squatted on a few planets and crept toward those that Jon had taken from her. Matt M. Never even expanded a single system in here direction; he was focused on MR. Sitting at 7 points (3 public objectives and 2 times with ISC) in turn 10, she realized that she had more influence than her two neighbors, and claimed the VICTORY!

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Look, there's Elizabeth, just waiting for the rest of us to kill ourselves off.

Final Scores:
Elizabeth: 10
Jon: 9
Me: 9
Tony: 8
Matt M.: 7
Matt N: 6

Mistakes, Thoughts and Overall Impressions

WOW WHAT A GAME! Aside from a generally salty Matt N, everyone agreed that TI3 was a huge amount of fun. We made a day out of learning and playing, stopping for huge sandwiches in the middle, and really loved it. I think we definitely missed out on the political side of it, as politics went unchosen a number of rounds, and we didn't get to do much arguing. Maybe like other new players(?) we mostly focused on the obvious and more concrete military strategies, building up big fleets. There wasn't much for bribery, and everyone was a little cagey about making alliances, as trust was low. We loved the game as it was, and didn't even experience all the fullness of it.

While Jon, Elizabeth and I talked it over after, we agreed that turtling could be kind of a bummer, but Elizabeth felt that her Naalu were suited for it, and with no aggression coming her way she could afford to meet technology or trade objectives without diving for MR.

Also, we didn't have time to consider whether or not the ISC/Initiative draws were too big a factor because we were trying to figure out the rest of the game. Although Jon and Elizabeth did come in first and tied for second, and they got the ISC twice...

But we all had such a great time, We're already talking about how to run it differently next time. But what a great experience. After one play, I can confidently say this is one of the most fun games I've ever played. Long live the Empire!

Reply: Twilight Imperium 3rd Edition:: Variants:: Re: Adding more combat to your games

halbower — Tue, 10 Nov 2009 02:04:35 +0000

by halbower

Puffmagico wrote:

I think the combat objectives that were proposed and the custom objective cards are cool ideas but both add more rules to TI3 for my tastes and I feel for this reason they need tweaking.

Fair enough

Puffmagico wrote:

Having this variant not eclipse the other routes to victory is very importnat as the politics route is already pretty mearge.

Fair enough. To clarify: there is NO politics route. To state that it's "meagre" [sic] is to overstate the importance of politics in winning.

Puffmagico wrote:

Someone reccomened something like Catan's longest road condition and I feel they have hit on the winner, or at least it is a variant I'd play with. Why not simply have a standing objective card in all games that the player with the most planets in any given round gains 2VP (and looses them without the most planets condition)? That's enough to spark a conflict at the end, or enchourage a slow expansion and retaliation during the game. Coupled with the artifacts that should increase conflict with a greater area control element.

Interesting spin on the longest road idea. This is probably better than the "glorious fleet" idea. But it still doesn't make combat viable for everyone--it simply makes it viable for one or two players who are slugging it out.

This is why I suggested my "combat objectives". The typical player will score 1VP a game with these combat objectives. Some players may be able to squeeze out 2VP. In order to score more than that, a player would have to forgo scoring other objectives.

New Image for Twilight Imperium 3rd Edition

Puffmagico — Mon, 09 Nov 2009 23:21:33 +0000

by Puffmagico

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Orange Letnev and Grey Humans joint win final fleet positions - note Green Yssaril and Purple Naalu game long 'border skirmish' (who cares about the throne).

New Image for Twilight Imperium 3rd Edition

Puffmagico — Mon, 09 Nov 2009 23:18:42 +0000

by Puffmagico

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The Imperial Beaded, Chiming Protea Sceptre of the Universe is shared by the equally turtliscious Letnev (a new group all time favorite) and the Humans (another late favorite), supplication by the Yssaril who were engaged in holy genocide with the Naalu

New Image for Twilight Imperium 3rd Edition

tlnordin — Mon, 09 Nov 2009 15:45:06 +0000

by tlnordin

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Game in progress during turn 6, we're using the OOP sandwich expansion.

New Image for Twilight Imperium 3rd Edition

tlnordin — Mon, 09 Nov 2009 15:34:57 +0000

by tlnordin

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The eventual winner, the Naalu, green (and the only girl!) watches the Hacan bomb the hell out of Sol's planet.

New Image for Twilight Imperium 3rd Edition

tlnordin — Mon, 09 Nov 2009 15:34:04 +0000

by tlnordin

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The Emirates of Hacan prep for battle while the Lizix and Jol-Narr negotiate.

Reply: Twilight Imperium 3rd Edition:: General:: Re: When will 4th Edition come out? How man years will 3rd Edition be good for?

dagekko — Mon, 09 Nov 2009 15:13:42 +0000

by dagekko

I was wondering if TI4E would be one of the mystery big-box rpojects coming this season...hope not...

Reply: Twilight Imperium 3rd Edition:: General:: Re: When will 4th Edition come out? How man years will 3rd Edition be good for?

sigmazero13 — Mon, 09 Nov 2009 14:45:50 +0000

by sigmazero13

I seriously doubt there will be a 4th edition, at least anytime in the near future. The 3rd edition has been described by the designer, if I recall, as being where he wanted the game to be, especially after the expansion completed much of what wasn't put in the base game.

Reply: Twilight Imperium 3rd Edition:: General:: Re: When will 4th Edition come out? How man years will 3rd Edition be good for?

tmredden — Mon, 09 Nov 2009 11:32:12 +0000

by tmredden

3rd Edition along with the expansion has extensive replayability and I'm hoping there never will be a 4th edition. No need.

Reply: Twilight Imperium 3rd Edition:: General:: Re: When will 4th Edition come out? How man years will 3rd Edition be good for?

JonJacob — Mon, 09 Nov 2009 04:53:16 +0000

by JonJacob

DorianGray wrote:

How long before 4th edition comes out? I'm wondering if its worth waiting for 4th or just getting 3rd right now.

Who knows, I was hoping for more expansions for this one personally. TI3 represents a huge shift in FFG and their games. The quality was better and obviously more thought out staring at about the time this came out. They haven't been releasing new editions of anything since that last one.

DorianGray wrote:

I'm wondering if its worth waiting for 4th or just getting 3rd right now.

3rd will be good forever, regardless of any new edition. It's a fine game on it's own and I expect to play it 3-4 times a year for the rest of my life.

Reply: Twilight Imperium 3rd Edition:: General:: Re: When will 4th Edition come out? How man years will 3rd Edition be good for?

endou_kenji — Mon, 09 Nov 2009 04:43:13 +0000

by endou_kenji

I doubt it'll ever come out... they kinda made it flawless ;P

Thread: Twilight Imperium 3rd Edition:: General:: When will 4th Edition come out? How man years will 3rd Edition be good for?

DorianGray — Mon, 09 Nov 2009 04:41:31 +0000

by DorianGray

I know some games are timeless and never need a update but for such a complicated niche game like this I know it gets updated every few years.

How long before 4th edition comes out? I'm wondering if its worth waiting for 4th or just getting 3rd right now.

New Image for Twilight Imperium 3rd Edition

Guantanamo — Fri, 06 Nov 2009 17:19:24 +0000

by Guantanamo

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Scott, Johnnydolar, and Callidusx3 at Mike's Mini Meet V

New Image for Twilight Imperium 3rd Edition

townleyst — Fri, 06 Nov 2009 04:21:26 +0000

by townleyst

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A simple paint job makes a huge difference.

File: Twilight Imperium 3rd Edition:: Twilight Imperium 3 Objectives Card List and Setup Instructions

bcbeltz — Wed, 04 Nov 2009 19:07:46 +0000

by bcbeltz

Twilight Imperium 3 Objectives Card List and Setup Instructions for Board Game: Twilight Imperium 3rd Edition ]]>

Reply: Twilight Imperium 3rd Edition:: Rules:: Re: What can you give away?

Belgand — Wed, 04 Nov 2009 02:32:35 +0000

by Belgand

This has always seemed like the weakest part of TI to me. Coming at it from the perspective of a player of Civilization, Master of Orion, and other computer games it seems like there's very little to trade and I feel like this takes away a major aspect of player interaction and diplomacy.

I feel like I should have the option to let other players move through my space... for a price or to help cement out alliance, trade techs, send a few units their way, pass some planets back to me, etc. This allows someone like Hacan or Jol-Nar who are weaker at combat to ally themselves with someone with a greater combat capacity either for protection or to carve out a joint empire where one does the research, earns the trade goods, and produces the units and the other embarks on a campaign of conquest before sending the spoils of war back. Not to mention the fun of the inevitable betrayals, the threats and bribes over technology (do you really want to give the evil invading aliens something to make them even stronger just to make them go away now?) and all the other benefits. Definitely the inability to allow other players to move through your systems seems wrong. I realize there are techs to allow you to do this, but would it be so hard to amend that to "without permission"?

It's a great game, but I just feel like there could be a lot more richness. Especially as I almost never like to actually go into combat myself. A greater ability to trade and discuss certainly helps players who'd rather stay back in their home system and work towards a more peaceful, political game.

Reply: Twilight Imperium 3rd Edition:: Sessions:: Re: 4 player fast variant in Johannesburg - we found a way to make TI3 work - Epic FUN AMAZINGNESS!!

Puffmagico — Tue, 03 Nov 2009 11:48:35 +0000

by Puffmagico

Love the microbadge :) thanks.

Reply: Twilight Imperium 3rd Edition:: General:: Re: Racial Balance Poll

sigmazero13 — Sun, 01 Nov 2009 21:53:12 +0000

by sigmazero13

The Letnev? Underpowered? Their home system is the richest home system in the game. Their racial ability may not be much, but their ability to crank out units in the early game is one of the best. If you know how to play them, they are one of the best, on part with races like the L1Z1X.

Usually, the ones from the base game I hear as being "underpowered" are the Mentak and the Xxcha. The Letnev at worst are "mediocre".

If you throw in the expansion, though, the Letnev's racial tech makes their racial ability one of the best in the game - it's FREE, which makes them as powerful as the N'orr!

Reply: Twilight Imperium 3rd Edition:: General:: Re: Racial Balance Poll

Tretiak — Sun, 01 Nov 2009 20:54:47 +0000

by Tretiak

I haven't played the expansion races yet, but from my experience of the base game I think the most underpowered races are the Mentak and the Letnev. Mentak have only a slight advantage in battle being able to make two cruisers attack before combat, but Letnev really sucks having to pay TWO trade goods for a +1 a round. Compare that to the Norr who have it for free 24/7. I don't think having an extra slot in your fleet supply compensates for such a demanding racial ability.

Reply: Twilight Imperium 3rd Edition:: General:: Re: Racial Balance Poll

bismark66 — Sun, 01 Nov 2009 15:27:59 +0000

by bismark66

This poll doesn't surprise me much.

The Yssaril are overpowered because the action skipping ability is too good. If you wanted to cut them down a bit I would suggest limiting skipping an action to once a turn. And "unlimited" is always a bad word in game design I think, you could put a limit on the action cards they can hold to maybe twice what everyone else has or something. There should be no question that the Yssaril abilities are too good.

The Xxcha are underpowered because they start with only 2 GF and it limits their initial expansion. I think a simple solution might be to give them an extra 1 or 2 GF to start. I like the Xxcha abilities and think they are interesting, to me it's the starting GF that are the problem.

The other races seem fine to me, maybe the L1Z1X are a little too good. I think the Winnu racial tech that comes with the expansion is unbalanced to the point of being ridiculous but if you play without the racial techs the Winnu are fine.

Reply: Twilight Imperium 3rd Edition:: Sessions:: Re: 4 player fast variant in Johannesburg - we found a way to make TI3 work - Epic FUN AMAZINGNESS!!

UanarchyK — Sat, 31 Oct 2009 12:57:31 +0000

by UanarchyK

Thumbed for all the SC2 strewn throughout.

Reply: Twilight Imperium 3rd Edition:: Sessions:: Re: 4 player fast variant in Johannesburg - we found a way to make TI3 work - Epic FUN AMAZINGNESS!!

Puffmagico — Fri, 30 Oct 2009 11:41:17 +0000

by Puffmagico

The players:
http://www.boardgamegeek.com/image/592732

The final fleet positions:
http://www.boardgamegeek.com/image/592745

File: Twilight Imperium 3rd Edition:: Twilight Imperium player aid in spanish

decanox — Fri, 30 Oct 2009 02:32:37 +0000

by decanox

Twilight Imperium player aid in spanish for Board Game: Twilight Imperium 3rd Edition ]]>

Reply: Twilight Imperium 3rd Edition:: Rules:: Re: 3-4 players order of play

sigmazero13 — Thu, 29 Oct 2009 16:19:11 +0000

by sigmazero13

Ringbearer79 wrote:
And another question... there is one race that makes an iniative card 0 (stating you always go first). How does it work if you have 2 iniative cards? ONe goes to 0, butthe higher value counts, or both go to 0 so you can go first.

Well, only the lower one matters anyway, so even if only one went to 0, the player would go first. It's not the HIGHER value that counts, but the "better" (ie, lower) value.

The short answer is: The Naalu always go first, unless an Action Card preempts it.

Reply: Twilight Imperium 3rd Edition:: Rules:: Re: 3-4 players order of play

Ringbearer79 — Thu, 29 Oct 2009 15:45:23 +0000

by Ringbearer79

And another question... there is one race that makes an iniative card 0 (stating you always go first). How does it work if you have 2 iniative cards? ONe goes to 0, butthe higher value counts, or both go to 0 so you can go first.

New Image for Twilight Imperium 3rd Edition

Puffmagico — Wed, 28 Oct 2009 09:29:49 +0000

by Puffmagico

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Final fleet positions, Letnev grasps for 0.0.0 even in cleanup.

New Image for Twilight Imperium 3rd Edition

Puffmagico — Wed, 28 Oct 2009 08:50:15 +0000

by Puffmagico

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From left Letnev, Winnu and Naalu, the shame of dawn.

Reply: Twilight Imperium 3rd Edition:: Rules:: Re: Gen Synthesis and Dacxive Animators acting together?

sigmazero13 — Mon, 26 Oct 2009 13:54:53 +0000

by sigmazero13

You CAN use both techs on your own troops, but the same unit cannot be affected by both. IE, if a troop is revived using Gen Synthesis, it cannot be revived with Dacxive Animators.

So if you have 3 of your own GFs that die, and Gen Synth revives 2 of them, you would only roll 1 die for Dacxive (plus the 1 for your opponent = total of 2).

Thread: Twilight Imperium 3rd Edition:: Rules:: Gen Synthesis and Dacxive Animators acting together?

Baloo3 — Mon, 26 Oct 2009 11:59:42 +0000

by Baloo3

If I have developed both Gen Synthesis and Dacxive Animators as Technologies do both of them take effect when successfully Invading?

For example I am invading a planet with my four GFs and my opponent is defending with one.
I conquered the planet with a sole GF surviving - lucky rolls by my opponent .

So can I...
1. GenSynt: Roll three dice and on all 5+ rolls put a GF in my Home System
AND
DacxAnim: Roll 4 dice (3 for my own loss and 1 for my opponent's) and on all 6+ put a GF on the conquered planet?

OR

2. I need to choose which technology I use for my own troops (GenSys or DacxAnim) and roll one dice DacxAnim for my opponent loss?

Session: Twilight Imperium 3rd Edition:: 4 player fast variant in Johannesburg - we found a way to make TI3 work - Epic FUN AMAZINGNESS!!

Puffmagico — Sun, 25 Oct 2009 10:34:17 +0000

by Puffmagico

I write this after only five hours of sleep, the fighters are still buzzing behind my eyeballs.

It began last night, in preparation for next weeks eagerly awaited Twilight game. The first game was a training / refresh three player (for a couple newbies) and wow it's brilliant with three - so fast so fun so fabulous, so finishable! At 2200 we looked up from two games of dune-y britzkrag (after the 3 player twilight). The taste of Bene Gesserit prophecy sour on our lips. The evil dimension seemed so...so tangible, our milk was curdling, small animals and children wailed while the Xanadu cassette warbled a warning. Ding dong!

It was his dark majesty. Pieter. A dying moon t-shirt hung from pointy shoulders, portenting portentous things and moments later we were engaged on a dark mission, intergalactic supremacy - were we scared to start Twilight at 2200? Coffee! Did we worry that Pieter (the dark child) was going to betray us? Can their be good without evil? Would Dave's spite fuel shameless kingmaking? Ha, what wuss emporer has been bourne out of any other fires? Not even Hertzog's legendary galapogous turtling could scare us away. It wasn't, I realize now, a game. It was a mission to save some little plastic people in a cardboard universe far far away. It was nobility made Command Counter, it was glory on the wings of advanced fighters.

It was simply the best Twilight I've played and mainly it was because we made some desperate edits to make it finishable at the late start.

Hertzog played the Baron (we all thought Letnev sucked - how wrong we were). Dave chose the skin of his soul - Naalu snake thing. Pieter chose poetically, vile Winnu bueracrats, ready with form 5-CC-DIE ready to suck all joy from life. Me, that is I chose the L1Z1X, for what could be grander than Emporer version 2.1?

The galactic layout went relativley calmly with Hertzog outwitting us with some nice Nova, Nebula and Asteroid field walls. The Worm holes always a concern, this time never got too close to a homeworld.

This was the sublime edit: we only chose one strategy card a round. Unaware of the magnificent stroke we continued with only Hertzog's concern about game balance...

Letnev threw into massive fleets while L1Z1X raced for Type IV and a DN strategy. Naalu had signed a deal with the pencil pushers while Winnu (Pieter) across the table prepared for the genocide it was obvious he was going to release upon the descendants of the galactic rulers.

True to from I saw an exposed Letnev flank and compulsively attacked it with my type IV dreadnought and a carrier. but oh! the dice were against us, and Captain DOS burnt up with a quick counter strike while Letnev, who had also worked a deal with Winnu (see he IS evil) turned their full fleet towards 0.0.0.

I'd call it a battle but that suggests some chance at life. The L1Z1X had blundered and system after system fell to Letnev. Winnu was building about a wormhole so that he could get a souvenier of my empire before Letnev had all the fun. As with twilight it was a law that bought breathing room - the wormholes were voted closed isolating Winnu from the L1Z1X, deep inside my servers i grinned even as another fleet fell to the Baron, there was no way Pieter could keep his evilness bottled up between two peacful races. I waited and engaged in a desperate negotiation with the Baron. I would abandon two more systems, humbling my empire if he'd allow me to retreat with the dregs of my fleet. He gave the nod and no sooner had I abandoned then the baron swooped in (what an unexpectedly fantastic race), Hertzog probably controled 40% of the galazy now and Winnu was still pedeling promisins of genocide from across Mecatol. It all looked bleak, but do the semi board fear? NEVER! I had advanced fighters now and fast dreadnoughts but most importantly one super fast carrier with stasis capsules.

Now as a bit of background Dave (the naalu to my right) was hinting at a division of my remaining worlds. It was just a hint but I activated his home system and invaded his 1 GF defended space docked world. There was some negotiation (I had hoped to force the naalu into a war with the winnu, but Dave has been itching to give me some backstab presents so instead he turned on me).

It came down to a die role, one of my GF against one of his! I lost - AAAAAAH! The servers across the empire warbled their retro-sadness.

I managed to put one mine field in place and blockade his homeworld. Meanwhile Winnu and Naalu were exchanging one world to score an objective, the man love was strong between them and there seemed not so much as an opportunity to divide and rule rather than a cause of unity, both of them against my much reduced empire.

My fast dreadnoughts, super fast carriers, my advanced fighters roarered into Naalu Space (it was like starcon *sigh*) Naalu lost two systems. He activated his homeworld and tried to throw me off but fate (manifested as my mine field) blew up his carrier with all his GFs!! yay! It seemed that if i didn't have a chance I was certainly causing him hurt. it was then that the baron seeing my now completly exposed flank from my full on assualt asked the question 'why shouldn't I attack you?'

I offered some excuse like, but i gave you half my empire and retreated. but guilt does not work for the baron and 0.0.0 (my homeworld) was just too tempting for his military industrial complex. If I must be honest I despared, perhaps I should have taken his question more seriously, offered some better deal, but he was not impressed and with a carrier and 3 GF he took my homeworld and then one of my other space docks blockading the third (with 1 carrier!)

I couldn't retreat, I was barely holding Naalu and now with no stardocks I was doomed. My sadness seeped through my circuits. it was glum, but as with twilight there does seem to be some honour amongst theives and out of the blue Winnu gave me three trade goods. A bribe? why?

As it turned out I had selected the technology strategy and he wanted it activated pronto (I had kept speaker for 3 rounds as a result of the single strategy choice per round). the accountants with the big earrings offered this message, 'activate tech and your problems will be over.' Now i have played against Pieter and that's really just his love letter / kiss of death, I'm sure my problems WOULD have been over, if I activated now he'd get Type IV and I just knew where his fast fleet would pay a visit to first. But I was desperate, doomed, and while battling the Naalu I closed my eyes and trusted to the untrustable, it could be no worse...

Out of the creative fires of the elastic band department a fast fleet of Winnu roared out of space, my tear duct replacement tubes prepared the lubricant...for Winnu to attack Naalu!! Pukunk cosmic joy!! The dark loards patience had been exhausted and for me a breather.

One dreadnought and a crussirs peeled away from the Naalu line and with another quick negotiation the Baron is encouraged to retreat his maurauding carriers and allow me to recalim my worlds. Again Spathiwa's terrified boons were upon me! It seemed the Winnu mobilization had shaken Letnev from the insignificant L1Z1X pogrom to more weightmy matters (namely an unleashed and unspent Winnu).

i watched hopeful, maybe my special forceful objective with 4 DNs orbiting Mecatol was not so far fetched now. Naalu and Winnu burned and Piter no coward opened a two flank war on tha Baron.

I hurried to reclaim my lost worlds, nogotiated a peace from the baron and advanced a small Naalu pogrom of my own, with my now assault cannon enabled fast dreadnoughts. The snakes were down to one space dock and a fortified system, too scared to leave it, too weak to defend it.

Coffee break.

The baron goes off to fill us a much needed thermos and the three of us, grappling with each start noticing that he can't build any more ships? why, BECAUSE LETNEV HAS THEM ALL ON THE BOARD!

A tense truce is negotiated by the Winnu between myself and the hated Naalu. I agree to retreat from two of his systems 9including his homeworld) in exchange for him to throw his last fleet at the Baron for a suicide run.

The coffee returns and suddenly the three of us turn on the Baron. He looses fleets and builds Warsuns! He looses two warsuns in a dreadful battle and builds a new one withou blinking. He's advancing to the Naalu homewrld and seeing my ally underpressure I intervene with first strike (Yehat chitters) dreadnoughts. i hold off the suns only for the Winnu (played by the Darklord0 only turn on me - pieter just can't resist a double cross, and now the Baron decides that his pogrom against the L1Z1X was prematurely concluded. He vows total annialation - and I take assembly.

One other modificaiton that we play with is a variant dreamed up by Hertzog (Baron) where you my place a politics card face down in front of a strategy card in a 'slot' (it's an action). This is a proposed law and it triggers on assembly, where the player who takes assembly can veto one law or take speaker. all proposed face down laws are then voted on in sequence. Unsued politics cards count for two one off votes. Also in the strategy phase everyone gets a politics card. I love this variant and it makes politics powerful.

I have the only law on the board and as spaker I allow for the law to got to the vote. It's the one where if you don't have a GF on a world it goes neutral.

Winnu, now seeing the Baron turned on me wants to see more of that - he votes against - the baron set to loose all but three worlds votes against. It is a desperate ploy - Naalu and I (with some grain of trust from my retreat from his worlds) decides to vote with me, the law passes and we all loose many many worlds - but the Baron is the biggest loser and furious he goes on the assualt.

It's at this point that I see that all I need is one more technology to win a 2 VP objective pushing me to 10!

By now Naalu and Winnu are in all out war, Naalu is advancing finally seeing Pieter's true vileness. And I am slowly crumpling. The Baron takes my homeworld two more times but I hold it and we declare a great game and me the winner.

I boot up the hampster driven servers for the greater good of everyone.

The Zok fot Pik send party snacks and the Baron kicks us out to the sound of the birds, it's dawn.

It was so so good...

It's a far more gripping game with only one strategy card, and as a four player I love it! It was easily my favorite Twilight.

Reply: Twilight Imperium 3rd Edition:: Strategy:: Re: XRD the essential tech: Has anyone won without it?

sigmazero13 — Sat, 24 Oct 2009 11:46:27 +0000

by sigmazero13

Puffmagico wrote:
thanks for the tip, by the way when you send out a warsun, do you always guard it with a carrier and fighter screen? It seems an awefuly expensive ship to leave out exposed. i don't really know I've never used a warsun much.

A War Sun doesn't need a Carrier to supply a fighter screen - it can carry it's OWN fighter screen. No need to spend the extra 4 resources to protect the War Sun; if protecting the War Sun was my goal, For the same amount of resources as a carrier with 6 fighters (7 resources), you could build the same 6 fighters and 4 destroyers - which gives you 3 more ships with a potentially better chance to hit (if you have Hylar V), AND better protection against enemy fighters.

In the expansion, fighter screens aren't completely unheard of, they just aren't nearly as potent. Automated Defense Turrets lets Destroyers rip through fighter screens like butter, and Action Cards like "Friendly Fire" can really hurt if you are relying too much on fighters. Fighters still have their place as cannon fodder, but the expansion reduces their "must have" aspect.

I'm not saying XRD is worthless, but I don't think it's any more "important" than Hylar V or Sarween Tools - all three of them provide such huge benefits that they are often sought after. But I do think a well-planned strategy can make due without one of those three, depending on the race, the layout of the map, and the skill of the player.

Reply: Twilight Imperium 3rd Edition:: Strategy:: Re: XRD the essential tech: Has anyone won without it?

Puffmagico — Sat, 24 Oct 2009 08:14:37 +0000

by Puffmagico

Ja unpredictability is great, I once gunned for Muaat with its warsun right out the gate. I'll try keep it in mind for next week. Thanks for the replies.

Reply: Twilight Imperium 3rd Edition:: General:: Re: is it still in print?

Crichton — Sat, 24 Oct 2009 07:32:47 +0000

by Crichton

gohte833 wrote:
$90 for the expansion - which i'll probably pick up in a couple of years!). probably means they did a bloody good job on TI3 to start with, which means they wouldn't need a 4th edition right?

They did do a great job on TI3.. however, I would heartily recommend getting the expansion as soon as possible as it rather nicely cleans up most of the issues found in the base game.

It is possibly my favorite board game of all time, the only reason my group doesn't play it more is due to the lengthy playing time required.

Reply: Twilight Imperium 3rd Edition:: Strategy:: Re: XRD the essential tech: Has anyone won without it?

BeanThere — Sat, 24 Oct 2009 01:58:08 +0000

by BeanThere

Puffmagico wrote:
BeanThere wrote:
The only tech I ended up buying was anti-mass deflectors...

I ended up finishing third in a six player game. So yeah, not quite a winning strategy.

Ah, that's interesting, with us it seems that tech plays a role only when someone gets a significant advantage - type IV, light wave, adv fighters, warsun, maybe. Otherwise it's just an arms race. What race did you play when you opted not to go for tech? I wonder if a low/no tech strategy with the L1Z1X might work, they have a brilliant starting selection anyway?

We chose races at random and I was the Yin Brotherhood, so I had assault lasers and defense turrets. I was pretty aggressive and was the first to take MR. I really wanted to get a space dock on rex and use the racial ability to really reinforce it.

Like all TI games the game shifted in ways I didn't expect and was a complete blast. I always like to try different strategies when playing to keep things interesting and my opponents guessing.

Reply: Twilight Imperium 3rd Edition:: Variants:: Re: Adding more combat to your games

Puffmagico — Sat, 24 Oct 2009 00:34:59 +0000

by Puffmagico

halbower wrote:
In order to add more combat to your games, there must be an incentive for players to attack one another. This means there must be objectives that are combat oriented.

Also, the goal should be to add more skirmishes not make the existing fights larger. Ten small fights are much more exciting than 1 fight that is 10 times larger.

The solution: Combat objectives.

I won 5 space battles as the attacker: Score 1 VP
I won 10 space battles as the atacker: Score 1 VP
I won 15 space battles as the attacker: Score 1 VP
and so on

Thus, it is theoretically possible to win the game by fighting wars constantly. You simply have to win 50 space battles.

Hi dunno if anyone is still reading this old thread.

I think the combat objectives that were proposed and the custom objective cards are cool ideas but both add more rules to TI3 for my tastes and I feel for this reason they need tweaking.

Having this variant not eclipse the other routes to victory is very importnat as the politics route is already pretty mearge.

Someone reccomened something like Catan's longest road condition and I feel they have hit on the winner, or at least it is a variant I'd play with. Why not simply have a standing objective card in all games that the player with the most planets in any given round gains 2VP (and looses them without the most planets condition)? That's enough to spark a conflict at the end, or enchourage a slow expansion and retaliation during the game. Coupled with the artifacts that should increase conflict with a greater area control element.

My friends and I regulary have high conflict games, mostly because a number of us enjoy war for war. Often the warmongers loose (several of us activley ignore the VPs for FUN). And sometimes the warmongers when they see our emporer getting his crown fitted do occasionally put asside their feuds to turn their spoons on some turtle soup. Often it's way too late and we just get slaughtered by our great emporer! Yay for slaughter! :p

Reply: Twilight Imperium 3rd Edition:: Strategy:: Re: XRD the essential tech: Has anyone won without it?

Puffmagico — Fri, 23 Oct 2009 23:54:48 +0000

by Puffmagico

BeanThere wrote:
The only tech I ended up buying was anti-mass deflectors...

I ended up finishing third in a six player game. So yeah, not quite a winning strategy.

Ah, that's interesting, with us it seems that tech plays a role only when someone gets a significant advantage - type IV, light wave, adv fighters, warsun, maybe. Otherwise it's just an arms race. What race did you play when you opted not to go for tech? I wonder if a low/no tech strategy with the L1Z1X might work, they have a brilliant starting selection anyway?

Reply: Twilight Imperium 3rd Edition:: Strategy:: Re: XRD the essential tech: Has anyone won without it?

Puffmagico — Fri, 23 Oct 2009 23:48:24 +0000

by Puffmagico

malloc wrote:

Fighter Screens are so pre-Shattered Empires. I really don't see them that often.

Thanks for the reply. If fighter screens are a bit old school what sort of fleet composition do you see then? We play with the expansion and I don't know what could discourage their use - they seem so powerful. Unless you are reffering to sapce mines perhaps?

Reply: Twilight Imperium 3rd Edition:: Strategy:: Re: XRD the essential tech: Has anyone won without it?

Puffmagico — Fri, 23 Oct 2009 23:45:51 +0000

by Puffmagico

sigmazero13 wrote:

If you spam out a bunch of Cruisers, they can carry the needed GFs where they need to go. For defense, Carriers still work fine without XRD - put them near your systems and let them move as necessary.

I guess I'm just not convinced that a carrier with Naalu, Sardakk Norr, Saar or cybernetic pumped fighters isn't a cheaper and more feroscious force than an equal cost in cruisers. Although i never thought to rely on a slow carrier rearguard defense strategy while relying on cruisers ans destroyers for seizing new assets. I've always relyied (and generally done well) with using my carriers very aggresively.

thanks for the tip, by the way when you send out a warsun, do you always guard it with a carrier and fighter screen? It seems an awefuly expensive ship to leave out exposed. i don't really know I've never used a warsun much.

Reply: Twilight Imperium 3rd Edition:: Strategy:: Re: XRD the essential tech: Has anyone won without it?

BeanThere — Fri, 23 Oct 2009 20:42:26 +0000

by BeanThere

I went for a different approach the last time we played TI. I didn't buy any tech at all until late in the game. The problem was since I was using all those resources to build and expand, I looked a lot more threatening than I really was. I did get a jump on the VP's but this just caused people to gang up on me.

The only tech I ended up buying was anti-mass deflectors, which I used with Warfare II to take out my girlfriend's home system. I couldn't hold it for long, but I did get VP's.

I ended up finishing third in a six player game. So yeah, not quite a winning strategy.

Reply: Twilight Imperium 3rd Edition:: General:: Re: Racial Balance Poll

blarknob — Fri, 23 Oct 2009 20:24:31 +0000

by blarknob

That is what I was saying.

Reply: Twilight Imperium 3rd Edition:: Strategy:: Re: XRD the essential tech: Has anyone won without it?

malloc — Fri, 23 Oct 2009 17:46:58 +0000

by malloc

Stasis caps are essential. Relying on carrier is a bad idea, however XRD is taken more often to open up Type IV and adv fighters.

Fighter Screens are so pre-Shattered Empires. I really don't see them that often.

Reply: Twilight Imperium 3rd Edition:: Strategy:: Re: XRD the essential tech: Has anyone won without it?

sigmazero13 — Fri, 23 Oct 2009 16:42:45 +0000

by sigmazero13

I've found that Cruisers with Stasis Capsules can be nearly as effective for short-range planet captures as carriers. I think most players may end up with XRD, but I've seen games where a player doesn't and still does well. The carriers move slow, but all that means is you have to build a Space Dock closer to the action and protect it.

If you spam out a bunch of Cruisers, they can carry the needed GFs where they need to go. For defense, Carriers still work fine without XRD - put them near your systems and let them move as necessary.

I think XRD is along the same lines as Sarween Tools and Hylar V Assault Lasers - all 3 are incredibly useful techs, and many/most players will gun for these three techs during the game at some point. However, I don't think any of them are 100% essential (except maybe Hylar V for the Jol-Nar, but they start with it).

Thread: Twilight Imperium 3rd Edition:: Strategy:: XRD the essential tech: Has anyone won without it?

Puffmagico — Fri, 23 Oct 2009 16:19:55 +0000

by Puffmagico

It's a week before a game of Twilight and the normal pregame obsession has begun. Do you choose the L1Z1X or Muaat? Or go for another round of the Pirates?

None of these are my classic choice, I much prefer those races that are more manouverable right out of the wormhole. I've since been trying to find an alternative strategy to the heavy fighter strategy the Naalu and Saar players will no doubt be pursuing. Perhaps the slowpokes (L1Z1X, Muuat, pirates) have some counter, some sneaky graceful plan with a War Sun or something?

Anyways, after much back and fourth and scribbling i've given up! i cannot seem to find a better answer than for a race (all of them - not just the three) to first run for XRD so that their carriers can become properly mobile.

And then I gots to thinking is XRD THE tech? Without fighter screens and guns, capital ships are just so naked. Without XRD colinizing and seizing worlds, or points, is just...one...hex...away.

I keep hoping to find a use for a dreadnought (without an admiral) and even as the L1Z1X the most sensible option seems to be forget their pumped Dreads and just go for XRD.

Muaat's WarSun is the same, why bother to waste two techs on getting one operational (expensive) two step carrier (the sun) rather than going for XRD and getting four cheap ones?

I'm desperate to go for a Warsun strategy with the pirates (AAARRRGGHH!) given their tech tree is pretty close and War suns seem very piratical, in a giant bowling ball of DEATH kinda way. But you're still faced with naked capital ships, expensive naked capital ships and a galaxy full of roaring Naalu fighters (eek!)

Has anyone won without relying on XRD and if you did pull that off how, how, how?

Has anyone countered XRD enabled carriers (and their fighters) without going down the same tech route? Are those bulk fighter salesman coining it off us would-be emporers? Must we get the frequent customer card?

Send help to the West Spiral Arm ASAP! Dave's warming up his mind venom, I just knows it (he holds grudges) tee hee hee

Reply: Twilight Imperium 3rd Edition:: Strategy:: Re: Need pre-made war fleet construction list for newbies

Puffmagico — Fri, 23 Oct 2009 07:16:43 +0000

by Puffmagico

Flamin_Jesus wrote:

but you could also just go through a few mock up fights with different fleets and ships, that might keep them awake long enough to appreciate the differences of the shiptypes...

I think aunty fluffy pillow is onto something with the mock battle. Explain the rules in medias res (all the best movies (eg. StarWars) start that way doncha know) ;) Maybe give each new player a set fleet on a few hexes without homeworlds then let them get at each other and slowly add in the other rules that effect combat after they've grasped the basic logistical mechanic with the CCs.

Below are some suggested fleets that highlight (not neccesarily fairly) the relative powers of the ships:

Fleet 1:

2 x carrier
9 x fighter
3 x GF
1 x Dreadnought
(cost = 17)

Shows strength of fighter walls and protected DNs.

Fleet 2:

1 x Warsun
4 x fighter
2 x GF
(cost = 15)

Fleet 3:

4 x destroyer
2 x cruiser
(cost = 8)

Shows destroyers and carrier's speed.

Reply: Twilight Imperium 3rd Edition:: Strategy:: Re: Power of the TI3 races

Puffmagico — Fri, 23 Oct 2009 06:21:05 +0000

by Puffmagico

bulli wrote:

Xxcha (avg)
---------
homeworld: avg
trade: good
racial abilities: due to some quirk in the fabric of the universe these guys never got played even though we randomly deal out race sheets - i believe their racial ability to be rather bad though
a) may always execute primary of diplomacy
b) malus on combat for 1st round for enemies
racial tech: avg
starting techs: avg

Any comments?

I think it's great that you summarised things here so nicely but the Xxcha although they appear average are certainly worth a go. One of my all time favorite TI3 experiences was with playing the Xxcha. Their racial ability of -1 on the first round of combat is very powerful especially when coupled with Warfare in a fighter heavy fleet (or against a fighter heavy fleet). i went head to head with the L1Z1X and had the game continued for another few rounds I'd have exterminated them with the Xxcha (sure we'll never know but he'd lost his space docks). We were agressive from round 1 (neither of us were intersted in that points thing).

Another strength is their diplomats (with the expansion) i think they get two. You can protect your border worlds, or switch them onto an invasion fleet to capture and hold a star system. Memory's a bit foggy but they might also get an Admiral (who is always amazing on a DN).

I relyied mainly on small ships and cruisers, I didn't go for weapon tech at all and focused all science output on mobility getting Type IV Drive and finally Light/Wave. That allowed me to punch through their fleet at their soft undebelly. I never bothered getting their racial tech but often relied on diplomacy to give me some breathing room.

Also should you play with political house rules (as we do) the Xxcha's veto is pretty powerful.

New Image for Twilight Imperium 3rd Edition

Darkmot — Fri, 23 Oct 2009 03:19:07 +0000

by Darkmot

]]>

This bring whole new definition of "Clustered Sector"

New Image for Twilight Imperium 3rd Edition

Actonsat — Mon, 19 Oct 2009 14:27:23 +0000

by Actonsat

]]>

New Image for Twilight Imperium 3rd Edition

kin2x — Mon, 19 Oct 2009 03:18:44 +0000

by kin2x

]]>

before the game

Reply: Twilight Imperium 3rd Edition:: General:: Re: is it still in print?

Kelanen — Sat, 17 Oct 2009 23:43:27 +0000

by Kelanen

Personally I don't feel that TI3 needs more expansions or a 4th Edition. The first expansion was definitely needed, but whilst it's my #1 game bar none I don't feel a need for any more.

Sure more races and technologies is always nice, and if they came out I'd probably buy them as long as they were well balanced, but I can't say ever yearn for them, or even consider them when wishlisting for games.

Reply: Twilight Imperium 3rd Edition:: General:: Re: Is The Expansion a "MUST" Buy?

Kelanen — Sat, 17 Oct 2009 23:38:42 +0000

by Kelanen

Whilst I prefer 14vp and Imperial II, Imperial I *is* a valid choice if you need a shorter game, especially for a eurogamer crowd. That said once you have a group addicted they will likely want the longer game and Imperial II - it's a very worthy addition, and the other role cards are nice alternatives.

The replacement mission cards are another good alternative. Myself I much prefer the originals, but if you like a more aggressive game then you may prefer the new ones.

Some extra races, extra pieces for players 7-8, and extra tiles so you can have a larger board.

So far this is all good expansion stuff and precisely what an expansion should be about. For anyone that enjoys the game it will enhance their options in lots of ways, but you can play without it (much better with though). There's a host of other minor inclusions too.

The parts that often get overlooked however, (besides the contentious Imperial I/II) are the flaws that to be honest really should have been fixed in development and playtesting:

Fighters are too efficient. Dreadnaughts and in particular War Suns too easy to kill. This leads to all the detail and choices of the resource engines and how you build your military complex being wasted.

The expansion adds 4 technologies (onto a base of 20? 24?) which doesn't sound like a lot, but two of them almost single handedly correct this problem. Some of the Actions cards are improved by errata one of which in particulr further helps the unit strength issues.

Those changes (along with Imperial II if you really can't stomach the original) alone easily add another 1 to the games rating. With all the other stuff it's probably a 1.5. It's a good base game, but only becomes great with the expansion IMO.

To be fair, if you wanted to test the waters, then just buying the base game and playing your first game, probably won't suffer too much, because people will mostly be doing all they can to use their Command Counters properly, and predict their Fleet Supply, to worry about over optimising builds and combat, but once you know the game, you will definitely want the expansion.

Reply: Twilight Imperium 3rd Edition:: General:: Re: Is The Expansion a "MUST" Buy?

sigmazero13 — Sat, 17 Oct 2009 03:51:57 +0000

by sigmazero13

Oh how I wish Long War could be a norm for me :) Alas, I'm lucky to find time for the normal VP count.

Reply: Twilight Imperium 3rd Edition:: General:: Re: Racial Balance Poll

sigmazero13 — Sat, 17 Oct 2009 03:49:38 +0000

by sigmazero13

Much of S.E. is "variants" - official variants that are still optional. I think what blarknob is saying is that many people (probably a majority of people NOT on the forums) only use these official variants - no "house rule" variants or changes.

Reply: Twilight Imperium 3rd Edition:: General:: Re: Is The Expansion a "MUST" Buy?

Fargofootball — Fri, 16 Oct 2009 22:22:13 +0000

by Fargofootball

sigmazero13 wrote:
I have to agree with Nathan here. Yes, there are a few more combat-related things in the expansion to encourage fighting, but you can still win games with minimal fighting. I've seen a good number of "cold war" style games post-expansion, just as I did pre-expansion.

Combat is a part of the game. It doesn't mean you HAVE to be aggressive to win, but what the expansion has done is make a military strategy more viable; pre-expansion, there were times where fighting served no purpose at all, and it just became a hunker-down-and-outlast-the-other-players fest.

In fact, our group plays to 14 so combat will happen. Many games end just before the huge fleets you spent the entire game building and teching up have a chance to meet in combat. Combat is not the focus of the game, claiming objectives is. SE added some combat objectives sorely missing from the original game.

Reply: Twilight Imperium 3rd Edition:: General:: Re: Racial Balance Poll

Fargofootball — Fri, 16 Oct 2009 21:54:17 +0000

by Fargofootball

There are so many options to add or subtract from the TI3 and SE rules sets I felt it would be rare to see the majority of the games played using the same rules. In fact I don't believe you can use every RAW as some conflict with others.

Reply: Twilight Imperium 3rd Edition:: General:: Re: Racial Balance Poll

blarknob — Fri, 16 Oct 2009 19:21:53 +0000

by blarknob

I think you are wrong about most games being played with house rules. Players represented online might play with more house rules but I'd bet most games are played with the base rules. I know mine are and I play this game about once a month with my group.

Reply: Twilight Imperium 3rd Edition:: General:: Re: is it still in print?

Harlekin — Fri, 16 Oct 2009 10:05:30 +0000

by Harlekin

TI2 incorporated a lot of the expansions of TI1 and only offered one single expansion ("Hope's End"). Although TI1 (with expansions) offered a lot of rules that never made it into TI2 but somehow managed to turn up in TI3...

But since those decisions are made by people that "never ran out of fighter tokens during testing"... ;)

Reply: Twilight Imperium 3rd Edition:: General:: Re: is it still in print?

Belgand — Fri, 16 Oct 2009 09:38:42 +0000

by Belgand

sigmazero13 wrote:
Well, to be fair when comparing it to TI1, a lot of what was included in the "expansions" was probably included in the base set of TI3 already. IE, TI1 started a lot "smaller" and had several add-ons. TI3 may have had many of those idea just included with the original.

With Arkham Horror, for instance, many of the expansions are kind of new "scenarios". Same with Runebound and (to an extent) Descent. TI3 being more freeform to start with didn't really need scenario-specific type expansions.

True, but you can always add new and ever more complex rules to something. Just look at how the Civilization computer games have constantly evolved. I could, along those lines, see a new expansion that adds religions to TI. Oh think of the ways such a thing could be used, along with new races with abilities that complement and exploit the new system.

Reply: Twilight Imperium 3rd Edition:: General:: Re: is it still in print?

sigmazero13 — Thu, 15 Oct 2009 21:14:26 +0000

by sigmazero13

Well, to be fair when comparing it to TI1, a lot of what was included in the "expansions" was probably included in the base set of TI3 already. IE, TI1 started a lot "smaller" and had several add-ons. TI3 may have had many of those idea just included with the original.

With Arkham Horror, for instance, many of the expansions are kind of new "scenarios". Same with Runebound and (to an extent) Descent. TI3 being more freeform to start with didn't really need scenario-specific type expansions.

Reply: Twilight Imperium 3rd Edition:: General:: Re: is it still in print?

Belgand — Thu, 15 Oct 2009 20:20:51 +0000

by Belgand

I wasn't implying that it needed to have a ton of expansions, but the original had four and most popular FFG games (e.g. Arkham Horror, Descent, Runebound) have gotten a ton of expansions both large and small. Maybe it's because this is the favored first child, but it seems odd that it has not been given the same treatment.

Reply: Twilight Imperium 3rd Edition:: General:: Re: Racial Balance Poll

Fargofootball — Thu, 15 Oct 2009 16:53:49 +0000

by Fargofootball

Several points:
1. I would guess most TI3 games are either modded in some way and few use the exact same rule set. Thus any poll is subjective from that point of view.

2. The nature of the game will lead to the races played will be different than the game before. (unless you play with 14 players!)So some races may seem over powered as they are on the table every time.

3. Some races act as natural foils for other races. If not present the lack of a natural enemy will allow that race to shine a bit brighter.

4. Each gaming group has it's own unique human factors that will drive the game.

Each race has it's own advantages that gives it power others don't have. The Yssaril are not weak but their advantage is one of the easiest to master. It's quite easy to excel when you are the only active player. Thus to newer players it holds a place a bit higher than IMHO it should.

It's much harder to take the Xxcha and apply those powers but a good player using the Xxcha can put the breaks on the Yssaril and accomplish what it wants when it needs to. The ability to force each race to place a CC on MR is priceless!

The Barony is far from underpowered. Spamming DDs and Ftrs is a sight to behold, as long as you aren't in the way. They have perhaps the best production base in the game. TGs can be had, either through intimidation (give me your trade agreement or I spam your way), selling influence to races who wish to have Pol cards in play, or many other ways. I've yet to see the Barony with out TGs to use.

The L1Z1X is listed as over powered in the above poll. They expand slowly, and DNs while powerful, need much tech to really shine. They often bare the brunt of political cards enacted (at least early) and seem to have few friends, lol. All of this tend to bring them back to the pack. Again the L1Z1X advantages are easy to employ and thus they tend to shine in games played by less experienced gaming groups.

Starting position, Secret Objective cards, the political cards enacted, and the gaming group's proficiency all play as much or more important roll in sculpting the TI3 universe you will be playing in.

TI3 is a diverse and deep game that most including myself have barely scratched the surface of.

Reply: Twilight Imperium 3rd Edition:: General:: Re: is it still in print?

sigmazero13 — Thu, 15 Oct 2009 03:23:08 +0000

by sigmazero13

New "mini" expansions would definitely be welcomed by a lot in the community, with more races, systems, cards, etc. They don't all need to have "new things" in terms of rules or extra features, but there is always room for added content for the existing stuff.

Reply: Twilight Imperium 3rd Edition:: General:: Re: is it still in print?

gohte833 — Thu, 15 Oct 2009 03:21:19 +0000

by gohte833

Belgand wrote:
we also haven't seen more than a single expansion.

and i hope not! imagine how much dosh you'd have to dish out for multiple expansions to get a good experience (here in NZ it's $140 for the base game - which is still on its way, and $90 for the expansion - which i'll probably pick up in a couple of years!). probably means they did a bloody good job on TI3 to start with, which means they wouldn't need a 4th edition right?

Reply: Twilight Imperium 3rd Edition:: General:: Re: is it still in print?

pyramidlagota — Thu, 15 Oct 2009 00:15:56 +0000

by pyramidlagota

a pretty damn good expansion to a pretty damn amazing game. :)

Reply: Twilight Imperium 3rd Edition:: General:: Re: Is The Expansion a "MUST" Buy?

Belgand — Tue, 13 Oct 2009 16:52:37 +0000

by Belgand

foxx wrote:
Belgand wrote:

The lack of Initiative also took away the ability to get free secondary abilities and meant that the Speaker token rarely changed hands as Assembly wasn't often chosen.
So you’re saying the only reason people chose Initiative was for the free stuff? Sounds like your play group severely undervalues the power of the Speaker token. You can’t fault Assembly for that.

No, I'm saying that getting free stuff was a very nice ability of Initiative and I greatly prefer it. Assembly... ehh not enough political cards made it into hands and when they did laws were rarely passed. People quickly learned not to bother with it and chose to concentrate on other areas. Thus it rarely got picked, Speaker tended not to move, and giving someone else the option of playing a political card to take Speaker for yourself either didn't cross people's minds or was seen as a poor decision.

Changing Trade ... producing less incentive to pick it unless you really wanted to make a new agreement or the extra few trade goods were particularly desirable.
I don’t know about your group, but since switching to Trade II, with every group of players I’ve played with, I find it getting picked more often, not less.

It could well just be a group thing, but Trade II provides little incentive to pick it since everyone is going to collect trade goods regardless. Playing as Hacan in my last game even I often wished that someone else would pick it rather than constantly having to do so myself. Missing out on one trade good for not picking it and getting three extra for picking it either didn't occur to people as worthwhile enough to bother compared to something like Diplomacy or wasn't seen as large enough to make a difference.

As I said, not a lot of strategy tokens were used because it was rare that they seemed to offer particularly large benefits. Going with Trade I makes them become far more important.

You also didn't mention Technology II, which is far superior to the original Technology SC. Now races OTHER then Jol-Nar get a chance to gain techs deeper in the tree.

I actually haven't played with Technology II as I don't own the expansion myself, but was playing with someone else who does and had set things up to his personal liking. Something I found clashed quite a bit with my own. Playing as Hacan I easily grabbed up tech because without having to pay for a fleet I could generally afford to buy it every single turn (and had somehow convinced people to vote me in for the political card that gave it to me without paying strategy and at a discount... probably because I was one of the few non-warlike players in the game).

Plus as I said in my previous post, there are a lot of other things that come in the expansion. And it’s very modular so you can add the parts you like while leaving out the parts you don’t. So even if you prefer a less combat oriented game, SE still has plenty to offer.

I'm not saying it has nothing to offer, but I've found that I don't really care for most of the new strategy cards and I don't like the increased focus on combat. I'm sure it's a great improvement for others, but I'm just trying to provide a dissenting opinion. As you said, it's very modular, but the people calling it "essential", eh... I find very little to be essential and a lot that I dislike and don't want to include.

Reply: Twilight Imperium 3rd Edition:: General:: Re: Is The Expansion a "MUST" Buy?

sigmazero13 — Tue, 13 Oct 2009 14:43:11 +0000

by sigmazero13

I have to agree with Nathan here. Yes, there are a few more combat-related things in the expansion to encourage fighting, but you can still win games with minimal fighting. I've seen a good number of "cold war" style games post-expansion, just as I did pre-expansion.

Combat is a part of the game. It doesn't mean you HAVE to be aggressive to win, but what the expansion has done is make a military strategy more viable; pre-expansion, there were times where fighting served no purpose at all, and it just became a hunker-down-and-outlast-the-other-players fest.

Reply: Twilight Imperium 3rd Edition:: General:: Re: Is The Expansion a "MUST" Buy?

foxx — Tue, 13 Oct 2009 08:05:31 +0000

by foxx

Belgand wrote:
... As such I found the vast number of action cards focused solely on combat bonuses to be almost entirely worthless....

The original set of Action cards has somewhere between 20% to 34% that are strictly based around combat. With SE, it’s between 24% to 38%. Thus it's about a 4% increase, not nearly as big as you make it out to be. Besides, the mere existence of combat related action cards makes holding action cards a deterrent to potential attackers. Thus even just sitting in your hand they are not completely useless. Not the mention SE adds a lot of useful non-combat action cards as well.

The strategy cards are also a mixed bag.

As are the originals. But thankfully you can mix and match to play with the ones that best fit your play group.

The lack of Initiative also took away the ability to get free secondary abilities and meant that the Speaker token rarely changed hands as Assembly wasn't often chosen.

So you’re saying the only reason people chose Initiative was for the free stuff? Sounds like your play group severely undervalues the power of the Speaker token. You can’t fault Assembly for that.

Changing Trade ... producing less incentive to pick it unless you really wanted to make a new agreement or the extra few trade goods were particularly desirable.

I don’t know about your group, but since switching to Trade II, with every group of players I’ve played with, I find it getting picked more often, not less.

The original Imperial card was clearly broken and it's nice to clear that up, but Bureaucracy tended to get ignored until the late game as well when it became slightly more in demand, but not enough to cause any real fights over picking strategy cards.

True Bureaucracy isn't perfect, but is still an improvement over the other SC8’s. All of them are broken, but Bureaucracy is broken the least. (Personally, I don’t use any of them, and find the game much better that way.)

You also didn't mention Technology II, which is far superior to the original Technology SC. Now races OTHER then Jol-Nar get a chance to gain techs deeper in the tree.

Plus as I said in my previous post, there are a lot of other things that come in the expansion. And it’s very modular so you can add the parts you like while leaving out the parts you don’t. So even if you prefer a less combat oriented game, SE still has plenty to offer.

Reply: Twilight Imperium 3rd Edition:: General:: Re: Is The Expansion a "MUST" Buy?

Belgand — Mon, 12 Oct 2009 21:56:18 +0000

by Belgand

I actually found a lot to dislike in the expansion. For one I tend to favor a less aggressive game. The last time I played it was as Hacan and I only managed to get into one battle when a more aggressive player decided to attack me because he didn't have anything better to do and felt that my purely defensive fleet (constructed largely due to a move of his that threatened me) was partially signaling an intent to attack him. As such I found the vast number of action cards focused solely on combat bonuses to be almost entirely worthless while many of the others would only antagonize other players rather than encouraging them to leave me alone and fail to see me as any sort of threat.

The strategy cards are also a mixed bag. In this same game almost nobody ever really had much use for their strategy allocation aside from buying tech. The lack of Initiative also took away the ability to get free secondary abilities and meant that the Speaker token rarely changed hands as Assembly wasn't often chosen. Changing Trade to give everyone trade goods whenever it was chosen seriously weakened both the necessity to have strategy points and use them, well, strategically, as well as producing less incentive to pick it unless you really wanted to make a new agreement or the extra few trade goods were particularly desirable.

The original Imperial card was clearly broken and it's nice to clear that up, but Bureaucracy tended to get ignored until the late game as well when it became slightly more in demand, but not enough to cause any real fights over picking strategy cards.

Is it essential? No. It's useful if you want a more aggressive, combat-heavy game, but I've found I actually prefer to play without it for other reasons as well.

Reply: Twilight Imperium 3rd Edition:: General:: Re: Painting the Plastic

Belgand — Mon, 12 Oct 2009 21:38:37 +0000

by Belgand

I've thought about it and want something a bit better than just the basic, monochromatic pieces, but they really don't seem to lend themselves well to painting. They're detailed, but mainly with a lot of little bumps and ridges that don't really seem to encourage painting. Maybe a wash to bring out the detail, but that's about all.

The other problem is that the ships are not assigned to races, they're just general-purpose. Sure, it's nice to mate obvious color choices: Yellow with Hacan or Red with N'Orr, if for no reason other than easily matching race with player, but there are more races than colors and some don't always match perfectly.

Maybe seeing a really good paintjob would change my mind, but at present I really can't see a way to do it and get good results.

Reply: Twilight Imperium 3rd Edition:: General:: Re: is it still in print?

Belgand — Mon, 12 Oct 2009 21:30:50 +0000

by Belgand

Another reprint?!? Didn't it just have a reprint around January or so?

This brings up the related question of 4th Edition. Second came out three years after the original and Third came along five years later. At this point we're closing in on five years from the release of 3rd Edition. If it keeps selling well I doubt they'd release a new version, but we also haven't seen more than a single expansion.

Reply: Twilight Imperium 3rd Edition:: General:: Re: Racial Balance Poll

Dark Slayer — Mon, 12 Oct 2009 20:21:56 +0000

by Dark Slayer

I have to cash in a bit on issues.

There are a lot of differences between races. Some races are clearly better then others.

Just do a comparison between let's say the sardak and l1z1x. The main way of scoring points in a SE game is by attacking. The l1z1x start with nearly the same +1 to combat. Since points are won by attacking I always try to make sure not to offer up points. Actions like scuttling are a regular in my games.

Also some poster said that the Brotherhood of Yin is a weak race. I really have to disagree here. You really need to get to xrd but they have the crucial ability to skip one action. In the early game this is really powerfull. You are really able to profit from production where other races might not be able to.

Also there is that conversion ability. It is great for the offence. Ow and what about attacking someone's carrier first or second turn with two destroyers. Also a pretty devastating move.

Also people think the fed of sol is powerfull. They are pretty decent but their ability to produce GF's is really steep.

Also why are hacan weak? They are slow. That's true. But after turn 3 they really start to mass produce a lot. Which is awesome. They are how ever rather dependend on a a large number of players. They just do better in such a setting.

Reply: Twilight Imperium 3rd Edition:: General:: Re: Racial Balance Poll

Pistoolkip — Mon, 12 Oct 2009 18:23:31 +0000

by Pistoolkip

TomRybak wrote:

I often remind players that your primary (if not exclusive) goal is achieving the public objectives. No race (except maybe Jol-Nar if a lot of Tech objectives are revealed) has an ability that directly gives you those objectives.

the Yssaril have that ability. It's called 'I'll start doing things when everyone else has passed'. getting Mecatol Rex for them is not easier than anyone else, but most of the other Secret Objectives they can claim easily once everyone else has passed, and often early in the game.
The same goes for the Winnu, but they need Neural Motivators early and then get their Racial Tech, and they can still usually only really do this once per game.

The last game I played as the Yssaril was a 4 man game (with Simulated Early Turns and experienced players) and I got an official political sanction the first turn of the game before I even got my turn, so I could not take control of a single neutral or hostile planet that turn, so I started with a huge drawback. And I still won easily. Even threatened to prevent my neighbour from getting his secret objective, and he realised he could never achieve it without my permission, so he bribed me for 6 tradegoods (he was in no position to win).

The Jol-Nar are strong and should be attacked without mercy early on, but the Tribes have no such weakness. If you screw them over in anyway, they can very easily screw you back. They know what action cards you're holding, draw twice as much as you, and can keep any other player (safe Winnu) from achieving their secret objective.

AND they have a good starting fleet + tech.

On another note, the X'cha and N'or are a bit more balanced with simulated early turns, but the Saar are that much worse. We usually give the X'cha 2 extra groundforces, a quick and easy fix. Otherwise, they're an okayish race.
I still hate the N'or though, but that's more a personal preference. They're start is very weak, with almost no fleet and deep space cannons as a very unimpressive tech for a race that's supposed to be aggresive. N'or are one of the few races that can be obliterated by a blitzkrieg from the Mentak or the Yin in the early game. Please just give them 2 extra fighters or something.

Reply: Twilight Imperium 3rd Edition:: General:: Re: Racial Balance Poll

bnorton916 — Mon, 12 Oct 2009 15:09:09 +0000

by bnorton916

TomRybak wrote:
I have played TI3 pre-SE, and quite a bit post SE.

Do I think the Yssaril are a strong race? Yes. Are they fun to play? Absolutely yes. Do I think they are overpowered? Absolutely not.

In all my games played (20+) Yssaril has never won the game. Never. Usually they end up in the middle of the pack VP-wise.

If you go by win count, Federation of Sol has the highest number (fairly close to 50% of the wins) and I do consider them one of the strongest races. The Winnu have one of the best starting situations and usually place strong but have only won once. Ironically the Barony of Letnev has won once and are usually quite competitive. Jol-Nar are almost a shoe in for victory if more than 2 Tech objectives show up. Other than that they don't usually perform well (the ugliest I have seen is Sardakk N'orr sitting next to Jol-Nar--the poor Jol-Nar never had a chance.)

This game is not just about what race you are playing (and trying to maximize their strengths) but is quite a bit about countering the other players' strengths, whether they are racial, military, positional, planetary or political.

I often remind players that your primary (if not exclusive) goal is achieving the public objectives. No race (except maybe Jol-Nar if a lot of Tech objectives are revealed) has an ability that directly gives you those objectives.

If the Yssaril Tribes won more often (even at all in my group) I would agree they are overpowered. But they don't. No fix is needed in my opinion.

T

Is that because the other races/players keep yssaril in check?

Bill

Reply: Twilight Imperium 3rd Edition:: General:: Re: Racial Balance Poll

TomRybak — Mon, 12 Oct 2009 14:59:11 +0000

by TomRybak

I have played TI3 pre-SE, and quite a bit post SE.

Do I think the Yssaril are a strong race? Yes. Are they fun to play? Absolutely yes. Do I think they are overpowered? Absolutely not.

In all my games played (20+) Yssaril has never won the game. Never. Usually they end up in the middle of the pack VP-wise.

If you go by win count, Federation of Sol has the highest number (fairly close to 50% of the wins) and I do consider them one of the strongest races. The Winnu have one of the best starting situations and usually place strong but have only won once. Ironically the Barony of Letnev has won once and are usually quite competitive. Jol-Nar are almost a shoe in for victory if more than 2 Tech objectives show up. Other than that they don't usually perform well (the ugliest I have seen is Sardakk N'orr sitting next to Jol-Nar--the poor Jol-Nar never had a chance.)

This game is not just about what race you are playing (and trying to maximize their strengths) but is quite a bit about countering the other players' strengths, whether they are racial, military, positional, planetary or political.

I often remind players that your primary (if not exclusive) goal is achieving the public objectives. No race (except maybe Jol-Nar if a lot of Tech objectives are revealed) has an ability that directly gives you those objectives.

If the Yssaril Tribes won more often (even at all in my group) I would agree they are overpowered. But they don't. No fix is needed in my opinion.

T

Reply: Twilight Imperium 3rd Edition:: General:: Re: Racial Balance Poll

sigmazero13 — Mon, 12 Oct 2009 13:53:19 +0000

by sigmazero13

I'm a rules as written guy for the most part, but I would definitely not say the Yssaril are underpowered. I don't mind the imbalance in the game, though - it largely depends on the group and the dynamics therein. For some groups, imbalance can lead to lack of fun. For others, overcoming that imbalance is PART of the fun :)

Reply: Twilight Imperium 3rd Edition:: General:: Re: Racial Balance Poll

Mike_Evans — Mon, 12 Oct 2009 12:57:05 +0000

by Mike_Evans

There are always going to be people who believe that a game is perfectly balanced, no matter what evidence there is to the contrary. So I am not surprised that some folks would actually say that Yssaril is balanced.

However, I'm pretty sure anyone who says Yssaril is underpowered is either screwing with the poll, misclicked, or is on a mind-altering substance.

Reply: Twilight Imperium 3rd Edition:: General:: Re: Racial Balance Poll

bnorton916 — Mon, 12 Oct 2009 12:13:03 +0000

by bnorton916

So those who voted that Yssaril is balanced or underpowered. Is that just folks screwing with the poll or do people really believe that?

Bill

Reply: Twilight Imperium 3rd Edition:: General:: Re: Racial Balance Poll

bnorton916 — Mon, 12 Oct 2009 12:12:16 +0000

by bnorton916

Arcadious wrote:
wildfire393 wrote:
Edit: In terms of taking actions to balance these races, only really the Yssaril and maybe the Barony/Norr need it. You could "fix" the Yssaril by changing their ability slightly, so it's more in line with the Embers/Sol (maybe remove a Strat counter for an Action Card?), also making their hand limit just higher than everyones' (say, 10?) rather than infinite. For fixing the Barony, make it so that their racial tech also reduces the cost for the + to space battles by 1. As for the Norr, maybe give them another bonus tech or an extra Destroyer and Fighter to start with (they have a stupidly low amount of starting troops other than Ground Forces for an aggressive race).
In the games I've played the N'orr are always one of the stronger races at the table, and usually is able to get Warsuns out before everyone else.

Quicker than the Hacan and Jolnar?

Bill

Reply: Twilight Imperium 3rd Edition:: General:: Re: Racial Balance Poll

Arcadious — Mon, 12 Oct 2009 05:28:53 +0000

by Arcadious

wildfire393 wrote:
Edit: In terms of taking actions to balance these races, only really the Yssaril and maybe the Barony/Norr need it. You could "fix" the Yssaril by changing their ability slightly, so it's more in line with the Embers/Sol (maybe remove a Strat counter for an Action Card?), also making their hand limit just higher than everyones' (say, 10?) rather than infinite. For fixing the Barony, make it so that their racial tech also reduces the cost for the + to space battles by 1. As for the Norr, maybe give them another bonus tech or an extra Destroyer and Fighter to start with (they have a stupidly low amount of starting troops other than Ground Forces for an aggressive race).

In the games I've played the N'orr are always one of the stronger races at the table, and usually is able to get Warsuns out before everyone else.

Reply: Twilight Imperium 3rd Edition:: General:: Re: Racial Balance Poll

Arcadious — Mon, 12 Oct 2009 05:22:40 +0000

by Arcadious

boris317 wrote:
id say just leave them alone.

I'm considering that. I'm currently thinking of only fixing the Yssaril, but the underpowered votes for Xxcha has caught my eye.

Reply: Twilight Imperium 3rd Edition:: General:: Re: Racial Balance Poll

Arcadious — Mon, 12 Oct 2009 05:20:14 +0000

by Arcadious

bnorton916 wrote:
Yssaril is overpowered for couple of reasons.

1. Starting fleet. 2 carrier plus XRD.

2. Skip is arguably the best ability in the game

If I receive Yssaril, I would expect to win the game.

After that every race can win the game, though I don't mind bumping the xxcha and norr starting fleet a little.

Bill

I'm thinking that the easiest fix for Yssaril would be to have them start with only 1 carrier.