Caylus | BoardGameGeek

Reply: Caylus:: Rules:: Re: Lawyer and Architect Rule Inquiry

shroud — Tue, 07 Jul 2009 16:52:25 +0000

schmanthony wrote:
Further, this example has raised an interesting situation that I have not seen or considered before. What if the order of buildings is:

1. lawyer
2. architect
3. building owned by player 1

Player 1, the owner of building 3, has placed a worker on all 3 buildings. He could use the lawyer to convert building 3. BSW shows this with the little residence icon, and we could show this using the convention of placing the residence underneath as I mentioned earlier. But could the architect then build a prestige on top of that new residence? I think it cannot, since the residence is not really "there" yet. My convention, and BSW's icon, is just a reminder to put it there after building 3 activates.

BSW actually allows you to build a prestige over a new residence, which is replacing another building. You just have to click on the small residence icon at the upper left of the building being built over. I don't have a problem with this interpretation by BSW either. I feel this mechanic makes the game even deeper as there are a lot of opportunities to score big points on the last few turns of the game, if you can plan correctly. And, likewise, you have to be aware of your opponent's position and try to keep him from getting extra prestige buildings as well. You can sometimes do a play to block your opponent which is worthless (or of very little value) to you, but can cost your opponent a lot of points. Blocking an architect or lawyer on the last turn of the game are both examples of this, if the opponent has resources for multiple prestige buildings but not enough residences or favors/architect actions. This will result in a net gain for you, compared to your opponent, when you factor in the extra conversion points that he will have lost.

Reply: Caylus:: Rules:: Re: Lawyer and Architect Rule Inquiry

schmanthony — Tue, 07 Jul 2009 14:27:44 +0000

by schmanthony

shroud wrote:
jebry wrote:
On BSW a building that has been replaced by a residence will not be available until the end of the current phase.

Yes, this is indeed how it works on BSW. I could find nothing in the rules or the FAQ to elaborate on this situation, but I must say it is a good implementation/interpretation. The building track doesn't need to be any more powerful. As things are now, the prestige and building tracks are rather balanced. This is a good thing. I would hope that the designer would, should he ever clarify this issue, agree with what BSW has done.

I find the BSW implementation to be consistent with this rule. To me, the rule is written almost perfectly. If I could rewrite it, I might make one very minor clarification:

"If there is a worker in the building the
player wants to transform, the player pays immediately, but the
lawyer’s action will be delayed until after the building has been activated."

I would also like to make some clarifications to Steven Duff's points, above:

(1) Build the residence (cannot be placed yet, as the architect hasn't been reached yet)

The residence is indeed built... but only after the architect has a chance to activate. When playing the actual board game a good thing to do would be to slip the residence underneath the architect. BSW shows this by making a little residence icon at the corner.

(2) Activate the Architect. At that moment, the residence should replace the architect on the board, the architect goes back into the building pile.

The architect goes back into the pile after it activates, since it has a worker on it. "At that moment" is ambiguous IMO.

(3) Do the architect. College replaces the residence, residence goes back into the building pile. Take the points, do the favour.

Correct, and note that there are not any stone buildings available yet to build using the favor according to this example.

Further, this example has raised an interesting situation that I have not seen or considered before. What if the order of buildings is:

1. lawyer
2. architect
3. building owned by player 1

Player 1, the owner of building 3, has placed a worker on all 3 buildings. He could use the lawyer to convert building 3. BSW shows this with the little residence icon, and we could show this using the convention of placing the residence underneath as I mentioned earlier. But could the architect then build a prestige on top of that new residence? I think it cannot, since the residence is not really "there" yet. My convention, and BSW's icon, is just a reminder to put it there after building 3 activates.

Reply: Caylus:: Strategy:: Re: Possible combo?

jebry — Tue, 07 Jul 2009 12:00:13 +0000

by jebry

sedjtroll wrote:
I'm glad to see there have been other attempts at this combo... I will certainly give it another go sometime. Thanks Jason for chiming in... in your games, when you first build the church, about how far down the raod is it? Before the Gold mine? After it?

Also, let's address the other side of my initial post... would it be better or worse to simply remove the buildings from the game in all cases? Why do you suppose the rules put them back in the supply? Would you like to be able to build and then destroy things like the Mason and Architect, or does that just make the building track even more powerful?

To answer your question; in a 4-5 player game, putting the buildings back into stock is important because that will make the building track more viable. Ultimately the track is limited by the number of buildings, which can be a severe limit if the mason is out and 2-3 players are using the building track. Being able to recycle buildings will help make it a better point scorer.

In a 2 player game I would guess that it could be played either way without detriment since both players should be on the building track anyway. There are enough available favors in the two player game that ignoring the building track is usually a losing proposition (which is the main reason I prefer to play with more people).

In the 3 player game this question is in a grey zone. Often there is only one player on the building track and, if that player has built the mason too, they can build over it to put it further down the road and get the benefits of overbuilding stone buildings largely for themselves. Of course the other two players should do all they can to avoid allowing the building track player to build the mason and then anyone can benefit from recycling the stone buildings.

All in all I think the rule as written is best as it allows different strategies to be effective with any number of players.

Reply: Caylus:: Rules:: Re: Lawyer and Architect Rule Inquiry

shroud — Tue, 07 Jul 2009 11:59:09 +0000

by shroud

jebry wrote:
On BSW a building that has been replaced by a residence will not be available until the end of the current phase.

Yes, this is indeed how it works on BSW. I could find nothing in the rules or the FAQ to elaborate on this situation, but I must say it is a good implementation/interpretation. The building track doesn't need to be any more powerful. As things are now, the prestige and building tracks are rather balanced. This is a good thing. I would hope that the designer would, should he ever clarify this issue, agree with what BSW has done.

Reply: Caylus:: Rules:: Re: Lawyer and Architect Rule Inquiry

jebry — Tue, 07 Jul 2009 11:31:16 +0000

by jebry

On BSW a building that has been replaced by a residence will not be available until the end of the current phase.

It doesn't match the rules but I am sure that it was easier to program!

:cool:

Reply: Caylus:: Rules:: Re: Lawyer and Architect Rule Inquiry

UnknownParkerBrother — Tue, 07 Jul 2009 08:05:14 +0000

by UnknownParkerBrother

Sounds like a bug to me, arising from the ultra complicated interactions.

(1) Build the residence (cannot be placed yet, as the architect hasn't been reached yet)
(2) Activate the Architect. At that moment, the residence should replace the architect on the board, the architect goes back into the building pile.
(3) Do the architect. College replaces the residence, residence goes back into the building pile. Take the points, do the favour.

It says when a building is transformed, it is put back into the stock. When you transform, you pay the cubes and put the piece down, and take the points. It doesn't say at the end of the turn or anything like that.

All the favour stuff comes after that, so that building should be available.

Thread: Caylus:: Rules:: Lawyer and Architect Rule Inquiry

JoshtheGamer — Tue, 07 Jul 2009 07:35:55 +0000

by JoshtheGamer

I was watching a game on BSW the other day. During building activation, the following happened:

There were no stone buildings left in the stock.

Player 1 had a worker on the lawyer tile.
Further down the road, Player 1 had a worker on his own Architect tile.

Player 1 builds a residence on the architect where his worker further down the road is currently at.

Player 1 activates the Architect when the time comes. He chooses to make the College on top of his brand new residence. He attempts to use the favor to make a stone building--the Architect tile that he believed would be placed back in the stock pile while he was making the prestige building. Apparently it was not back in the stock pile, and his favor was wasted.

I am not sure that the rules clearly state what should happen in this specific instance.

I may be mistaken as well. I cannot remember with certainty if the College was made on Player 1's new residence or not. It may have been made on a different residence that had existed previously. However, I do not think this affects the instance of the Architect tile being placed back in stock.

As far as the rule book says, this is the key phrase:

"Whenever a player’s building is transformed, it goes back
into the stock and can consequently be rebuilt."

and

"If there is a worker in the building the
player wants to transform, the player pays immediately, but the
lawyer’s action will be delayed until the building has been activated."

The tricky thing with the latter quote is the exact timing. "Until the building has been activated" seems a bit vague.

If the rules stated that the residence is not placed down until the building has been activated. It does not specify if the active tile is put in the stock before or after the favor is granted as far as I can tell. Per BSW, it seems that the Architect tile does not go back into stock until after favors have been used, and that is why the favor to build a stone building is wasted since the architect is not back in the stockpile yet.

I think the correct way to interpret the phrase is that the tile is not placed back into the stock until the building is completely finished activating, including any favors that may come to that player. The tile is not placed back in the stock while the building is being activated.

Maybe this seems obvious to some people, but I still think it is a little ambiguous.

Reply: Caylus:: General:: Re: 2 Non-Premium Editions?

Carmilla — Sun, 05 Jul 2009 04:19:55 +0000

by Carmilla

OK, good to know.

Reply: Caylus:: General:: Re: 2 Non-Premium Editions?

dcorban — Sun, 05 Jul 2009 02:54:00 +0000

by dcorban

There is no difference between the two. Both editions you mention contain the Jeweler tile. The one with the full frame art on the cover is just the newest version of the box art. The contents, everything from the board to the tiles to the rulebook, are identical.

Reply: Caylus:: General:: Re: 2 Non-Premium Editions?

Carmilla — Sat, 04 Jul 2009 23:05:40 +0000

by Carmilla

Yep, that's it, thanks!

Reply: Caylus:: General:: Re: 2 Non-Premium Editions?

UnknownParkerBrother — Sat, 04 Jul 2009 22:41:16 +0000

by UnknownParkerBrother

One likely has the Jeweller tile.

Caylus Expansion: The Jeweller

Thread: Caylus:: General:: 2 Non-Premium Editions?

Carmilla — Sat, 04 Jul 2009 22:35:27 +0000

by Carmilla

I have two copies of Caylus, neither of which, I am sure, is "Premium". One says 40 building tiles on the back, the other 41 (although the French description says 40 for both.) On one, the ugly picture covers the whole box lid, with William's signature right under the title; on the other, the picture is a bit smaller, and the sig is in the lower right.

Anyone know if there's a difference beyond that? I'm keeping one and giving away the other, so it would be good to know. (Errata incorporated, etc.) I didn't notice any difference at all until just now when I had them side by side.

New Image for Caylus

Hollender — Sat, 04 Jul 2009 19:51:46 +0000

by Hollender

Concentration and considerations, without getting bored, in this good ...

]]>

Reply: Caylus:: Reviews:: Re: Initial thoughts of Caylus being a cut-throat Agricola

rhino — Sat, 04 Jul 2009 01:57:58 +0000

by rhino

Stunna wrote:
. . . what's problematic is a game like Puerto Rico where the player on your left can do a tremendous amount to screw you and you can't do anything about it.

I loooove PR for all the hosing; you have to play to a round ahead to short the one who'd hose you. It's all about who can get who first. :)

Reply: Caylus:: Reviews:: Re: Initial thoughts of Caylus being a cut-throat Agricola

Stunna — Fri, 03 Jul 2009 18:27:09 +0000

by Stunna

schmanthony wrote:
JohnRayJr wrote:
elcomadreja2 wrote:
First off, nice review/session report. I agree with the provost being a cut-throat aspect, and thus it can make for a very good 2 player game. When playing with multiple people, the guy that's losing can always be a jerk and spend all his money to deny people actions with no advantage to himself. I still have not played Caylus enough to know if I really like it or not.

Well, if he's denying other players resources without denying himself any, that sounds like "playing the game," not "being a jerk." If he spends way too much money on it, that sounds like "playing the game badly." Either he pays a reasonable amount and the other players were too risky in their action selection or he pays too much and hurts himself the most - which the other players should be glad to see.

I agree with JohnRayJr. Denying someone else their benefits is critical to playing Caylus well. This player would only be a "jerk," IMO, if his actions target a certain player purely out of spite.

Yes, and it does add an element of strategy. If you know this player is prone to screwing others with the provost, you should be very reluctant to play near the provost unless you have enough money to not pass before him and move the provost if needed. Then you have to consider if that's worth it.

If other players play negative in a way you can account for, that's fine; what's problematic is a game like Puerto Rico where the player on your left can do a tremendous amount to screw you and you can't do anything about it.

New Image for Caylus

jamaajaah — Fri, 03 Jul 2009 18:15:47 +0000

by jamaajaah

detail of Premium Limited box cover

]]>

New Image for Caylus

jamaajaah — Fri, 03 Jul 2009 18:14:56 +0000

by jamaajaah

detail of Premium Limited box cover

]]>

Reply: Caylus:: General:: Re: Pieces Size

endou_kenji — Fri, 03 Jul 2009 18:06:40 +0000

by endou_kenji

Not really an exact replica, but since I think the pieces usually are designed with the board in mind, changing it's size would also break the overall "design"... it would still work, but wouldn't be optimal.

Reply: Caylus:: Reviews:: Re: Initial thoughts of Caylus being a cut-throat Agricola

Ambrose — Thu, 02 Jul 2009 16:55:32 +0000

by Ambrose

UnknownParkerBrother wrote:
Ah, I see. Plus, with your Agricola experience, you'd be pre-disposed to placing and removing immediately.

That's one of the things that's so great about Caylus, it's not just workers, but order is crucial.

I can't count the number of times I've mentally calculated that I would have X wood, Y cloth etc, so I could afford to put a worker on the builder tile, only to realize later as we walked down the road that my getting the cloth was *after* the build action. :blush:

That happens to me most with the jousting field; either I didn't start with a cloth :blush:, or I played too many workers and don't have a coin. :blush::blush:

Ah, what fun...

Reply: Caylus:: Reviews:: Re: Initial thoughts of Caylus being a cut-throat Agricola

schmanthony — Thu, 02 Jul 2009 16:41:42 +0000

by schmanthony

JohnRayJr wrote:
elcomadreja2 wrote:
First off, nice review/session report. I agree with the provost being a cut-throat aspect, and thus it can make for a very good 2 player game. When playing with multiple people, the guy that's losing can always be a jerk and spend all his money to deny people actions with no advantage to himself. I still have not played Caylus enough to know if I really like it or not.

Well, if he's denying other players resources without denying himself any, that sounds like "playing the game," not "being a jerk." If he spends way too much money on it, that sounds like "playing the game badly." Either he pays a reasonable amount and the other players were too risky in their action selection or he pays too much and hurts himself the most - which the other players should be glad to see.

I agree with JohnRayJr. Denying someone else their benefits is critical to playing Caylus well. This player would only be a "jerk," IMO, if his actions target a certain player purely out of spite.

Reply: Caylus:: General:: Re: Pieces Size

kevintlee — Thu, 02 Jul 2009 16:16:28 +0000

by kevintlee

Eagle Games has "replacement" components for very reasonable prices. Probably worth the money considering the time it would take you to make them yourself.

]]>

150 in each bag, 30 of each color - for $8.00

]]>

40 cubes total. red(8),white(12),blue(8), and black(12) - for $4.99

----------

Also, www.spielmaterial.de has many MANY pieces for sale for good prices. Some of the minimum number of purchases are high but you may need them.

Reply: Caylus:: General:: Re: Pieces Size

schmanthony — Thu, 02 Jul 2009 15:49:37 +0000

by schmanthony

Sorry, I'm not with my game right now or I'd be happy to pull out a ruler. But I'm curious to know why you need the measurements...

Are you trying making an exact replica? If not, I'm wondering why you don't just size the pieces to your liking based on your board, tiles and possibly some images here on BGG.

The cubes are pretty darned small - about as small as they come. If I had a choice, I'd probably choose for them to be larger since you are constantly having to inventory the other players' supplies throughout the game.

I'd also prefer the worker cylinders to be somewhat fatter so they don't tip over as easily. Giving them a cross-section of something other than a circle would also be helpful to prevent rolling. You could even scavenge the pawns from 2 cheap chess sets, spray-paint them, and use those as workers.

Thread: Caylus:: General:: Pieces Size

endou_kenji — Thu, 02 Jul 2009 14:29:57 +0000

by endou_kenji

Since it's almost impossible to get the game around here for less than U$75,00 (which is outrageous for a game with the component quality it has, IMO), I decided to do a Home-made version of it.

I got the board and the tiles all done, and all I'm left with are the wooden pieces, which I'll cut and paint myself (sadly, there's no game pieces' store in Brazil).

What I would love if somebody could help me is: what are the sizes of the wooden pieces that come with the game?

- Cylinders (workers)
- Houses
- Disks (markers)
- Cubes (resources)
- Bailiff Cylinder
- Provost Disk

Reply: Caylus:: Reviews:: Re: Initial thoughts of Caylus being a cut-throat Agricola

JohnRayJr — Mon, 29 Jun 2009 17:18:01 +0000

by JohnRayJr

elcomadreja2 wrote:
First off, nice review/session report. I agree with the provost being a cut-throat aspect, and thus it can make for a very good 2 player game. When playing with multiple people, the guy that's losing can always be a jerk and spend all his money to deny people actions with no advantage to himself. I still have not played Caylus enough to know if I really like it or not.

Well, if he's denying other players resources without denying himself any, that sounds like "playing the game," not "being a jerk." If he spends way to much money on it, that sounds like "playing the game badly." Either he pays a reasonable amount and the other players were too risky in their action selection or he pays too much and hurts himself the most - which the other players should be glad to see.

Reply: Caylus:: Reviews:: Re: Initial thoughts of Caylus being a cut-throat Agricola

Moviebuffs — Mon, 29 Jun 2009 07:14:18 +0000

by Moviebuffs

Two of my favourite games.

I fell in love with Caylus the moment it came out back in 2005, and still love playing it today.

Agricola I still haven't explored to its fullest - one of the downsides to having a large games group - you're always teaching someone new and rrely can you throw the "K" cards in :)

I like Caylus more. The set up and tear down time is shorter, the play is probably longer on average (which may change with plays)

We find Agricola to be about 30 minutes a person, so a 2p game takes us an hour. Thanks to the long set-up, we tend to leave it out and play it again!

We can play 2p Caylus in about 40 minutes, but we've played it quite a lot. However, I would say Caylus tends to come in at about 25 mins a player on average.

N.

Reply: Caylus:: Reviews:: Re: Initial thoughts of Caylus being a cut-throat Agricola

HavocIsHere — Mon, 29 Jun 2009 07:10:48 +0000

by HavocIsHere

Right on the spot comparison!

Reply: Caylus:: Reviews:: Re: Initial thoughts of Caylus being a cut-throat Agricola

rhino — Mon, 29 Jun 2009 04:18:52 +0000

by rhino

Exactly, on both counts!

It seems to me that with experienced players in Caylus, it might even be benefitial to playing tiles down the road a little backwards to increase a little control over other players actions (while also limiting your own). With such play the more skilled stratagest may gain the upper hand.

I've read on a number of threads here that with more players the "chaos" in the game becomes almost unmanagable or perhaps unbearable. Up to this point in my Caylus experience, I have almost no voice when it comes to verifying this but ultimatly will decide how replayable the game will be for me.

Reply: Caylus:: Reviews:: Re: Initial thoughts of Caylus being a cut-throat Agricola

UnknownParkerBrother — Mon, 29 Jun 2009 03:51:33 +0000

by UnknownParkerBrother

Ah, I see. Plus, with your Agricola experience, you'd be pre-disposed to placing and removing immediately.

That's one of the things that's so great about Caylus, it's not just workers, but order is crucial.

I can't count the number of times I've mentally calculated that I would have X wood, Y cloth etc, so I could afford to put a worker on the builder tile, only to realize later as we walked down the road that my getting the cloth was *after* the build action. :blush:

Reply: Caylus:: Reviews:: Re: Initial thoughts of Caylus being a cut-throat Agricola

rhino — Mon, 29 Jun 2009 03:35:15 +0000

by rhino

Thanks for your interest in my review enough to read it and post and for pointing this out. It is an error on my part to post it as I did in the original post (OP) and should be edited for clarity - although I'll leave it unedited, so as not to confound your post question.

It was written as I remembered it and also as we read it during our first play.

Phase 2 section b states which of the three building types when placing workers. After reading (but during play) we fliped to further description of those particular buildings and after placing a worker there (during phase 2), we removed them. Hence we mixed the two phases together. As I posted earlier I found the problem lay with us and not in the rules; however, I should not have posted it as I did in the OP.

Our various play attempts generated around placing and removing workers over and over, performing the placed task and only leaving it on board if the task placement wasn't on a special building and/or running out of money.

Thanks again.

Reply: Caylus:: Reviews:: Re: Initial thoughts of Caylus being a cut-throat Agricola

elcomadreja2 — Mon, 29 Jun 2009 03:25:31 +0000

by elcomadreja2

First off, nice review/session report. I agree with the provost being a cut-throat aspect, and thus it can make for a very good 2 player game. When playing with multiple people, the guy that's losing can always be a jerk and spend all his money to deny people actions with no advantage to himself. I still have not played Caylus enough to know if I really like it or not.

Reply: Caylus:: Reviews:: Re: Initial thoughts of Caylus being a cut-throat Agricola

UnknownParkerBrother — Mon, 29 Jun 2009 03:14:22 +0000

by UnknownParkerBrother

rhino wrote:
That being said, during phase 2, some instruction is wrongly placed that should be in phase 3 (removing workers).

Oh, I agree that the Caylus rules aren't very good, they make the simplest things seem like really long steps. But this line confuses me, because phase 2 has no mention of removing workers that I can find.

Could you tell me what you're referring to? I'm just curious.

Review: Caylus:: Initial thoughts of Caylus being a cut-throat Agricola

rhino — Mon, 29 Jun 2009 02:00:16 +0000

by rhino

Disclaimer:
I have played many more games of Agricola and understand its play indefinatly better than Caylus; however they seem to be quite similar in play style. I'd like to discuss this lightly without giving a complete comparison between many of the nuances - that I know of - between them.

I've only played two, two player games of Caylus and just finished the second game last night.

Initial learning curve:
The turn sequence was quite difficult to understand in our first play; it took us far to long to figure out how simple the mechanic works. Ironically, Agricola hit us the same way - much to my embarassment of admiting. After my wife and I finished complaining about the way the rules in Caylus where written, and had tried to understand them through various attempts of game play, I ultimatly decided that they are written fine and the problem was us reading too much into some of it and not enough into other parts. That being said, during phase 2, some instruction is wrongly placed that should be in phase 3 (removing workers). So our inital attempts really mixed the phases together.

Once that frustration was cleared up, I found myself struggling over staying or getting ahead. There was a lot of analysis paralysis, more so on my part than my wifes; she was moving along quite effortlessly while I was really having to work. Agricola was also difficult for me initially and many of the same feelings and struggles where remarkably similar.

During the final quarter of the first game I had finally gotten a stratagem to come to fruition which gained much more prestige than what my wife had been successfully doing during the first 3/4 of the game. I had generated a steady income and was using a tile to purchase prestige every turn.

After the first game, I learned the value gold had in the game with the blue tiles as well as the value of some of the tiles that produce two resources. Even more clearly I learned the distaste of some of the stone productions that bring two cubes to opponents but only one to the owner - YIKES!

Moving into the second game I at least had some thoughts on a strategy. I built all of the two resource buildings except cloth and that I know had to help but the benefit is difficult to actually see. Then I realised the value of the provost as we approched the gold mine a round before my wife did.

Approching the Gold mine:
As the practical game got closer and closer to include the gold mine, I realized a use of the provost and what ensued was a dirty battle round after round to control the gold mine or in other words, attempt to gain three gold and stop the other player from getting three - since we both had at least five stone cubes. The Blue tile worth 25 prestige was the target.

This is what Agricola does not have. The provost play in Caylus definatly makes for a cut-throat game, something that I feel Agricola lacks. The fact that just because workers have been placed on a spot to gain a commodity does not mean that you will get it for the amount you've spent - if at all!

Since I had also established at least some income, I had a tremendous advantage with the provost and the income was, I would say, what actually allowed me to win. In one of the rounds I had finally shut her bank of deniers (money) down. So the following round she could do next to nothing and I also had control of the Inn.

This allowed me to get a number of critical builds done to complete my prestige machine.

Current thoughts between the two games:
I like Caylus more. The set up and tear down time is shorter, the play is probably longer on average (which may change with plays), it can be played very cut-throat so is not as much a multi-solo play as Agricola.

However, once I got a certain number of plays with Agricola the analysis paralysis lowered a lot and getting 50 point games became quite common emploring a wider range of stratagies. This makes me wonder about the future Caylus will have at my gaming table.

Caylus seems to possess many of the same qualities of Agricola, but it has the Provost - which is a major plus for me. While Agricola has many more cards (compared to tiles in Caylus) which don't make it as replayable as I once thought it did.

Which will hold up longer at my gaming table, as well as around the world, I'm interested in finding out. For me my money at the moment is on Caylus.

New Image for Caylus

Abstractite — Wed, 24 Jun 2009 19:27:18 +0000

by Abstractite

]]>

Reply: Caylus:: General:: Re: Is the quality of play on BSW hurting the game?

sczuba — Wed, 24 Jun 2009 18:20:08 +0000

by sczuba

After my mini rant - I did play a 2p game last night against someone with the same experience as mine.

The result ? A very very tight and fun game whereby I entered the final turn down by 15ish pts., grabbed 4 favors and with the last prestige building eeked out a 4 pt win.

Still love the game - I thought I had lost since I had a lot of cubes sitting idle when the castle filled last turn. As luck had it - I had enough to build a FFFG prestige.

Reply: Caylus:: General:: Re: Is the quality of play on BSW hurting the game?

shroud — Wed, 24 Jun 2009 15:53:17 +0000

by shroud

sczuba wrote:
My biggest gripe with BSW is the attitude that I'm adversely affecting a 3player games outcome one way or the other. Granted yes - I'll make a non-optimal play - that's a mistake by it's very nature.

It's tough to find tolerant , intermediate Caylus BSW'ers which has discouraged me a bit. I'll still keep plugging however - HieraxX is my login.

I don't mind losing, learning. I do not want to feel as I ruined someone else's game however.

Play some 2ers. People have only themselves to blame when they lose at 2 player Caylus. It is also the best way to improve your game quickly.

Reply: Caylus:: General:: Re: Is the quality of play on BSW hurting the game?

Abstractite — Tue, 23 Jun 2009 21:59:20 +0000

by Abstractite

They're ruining the game themselves. What is a game for if you're not having fun playing it?

Reply: Caylus:: General:: Re: Is the quality of play on BSW hurting the game?

sczuba — Tue, 23 Jun 2009 20:06:58 +0000

by sczuba

As someone who can't get Caylus out at our local gaming group - I've turned to BSW recently to play. I fully acknowledge the issues out there regarding discrepancy in play. I'm not a terrible gamer - I enjoy longer games as a rule.
I also don't mind getting smoked - as I still love the mechanics and flow of the game. Same as with Power Grid -

My biggest gripe with BSW is the attitude that I'm adversely affecting a 3player games outcome one way or the other. Granted yes - I'll make a non-optimal play - that's a mistake by it's very nature.

It's tough to find tolerant , intermediate Caylus BSW'ers which has discouraged me a bit. I'll still keep plugging however - HieraxX is my login.

I don't mind losing, learning. I do not want to feel as I ruined someone else's game however.

New Image for Caylus

fangorrn — Sat, 20 Jun 2009 11:17:53 +0000

by fangorrn

Caylus workers with worn off paint.

]]>

New Image for Caylus

fangorrn — Sat, 20 Jun 2009 11:06:45 +0000

by fangorrn

Caylus coins look like this after heavy playing.

]]>

New Image for Caylus

fangorrn — Sat, 20 Jun 2009 10:55:59 +0000

by fangorrn

Playing Caylus with parents.

]]>

Reply: Caylus:: General:: Re: What to do about missing components

schmanthony — Fri, 19 Jun 2009 18:19:23 +0000

by schmanthony

You can buy untreated small wooden discs from various online craft suppliers, as well as a local Michael's or Hobby Lobby. Then you could either spraypaint them, hand brush them with cheap craft paint, or just use magic markers. If you go with the craft paint or magic markers I'd let them dry completely, then finish up with a coat of clear gloss enamel or matte acrylic.

You could also try to trade for parts on BGG or scavenge pieces from other games. Thrift stores are great for that.

New Image for Caylus

WaterZero — Fri, 19 Jun 2009 13:11:12 +0000

by WaterZero

"Black Sacer" in a four player mid game

]]>

New Image for Caylus

WaterZero — Fri, 19 Jun 2009 12:56:57 +0000

by WaterZero

4 player mid game

]]>

Reply: Caylus:: News:: Re: Caylus Premium Limited Edition for ~$60

Frankenfletch — Wed, 17 Jun 2009 19:21:50 +0000

by Frankenfletch

kneumann wrote:
Frankenfletch wrote:
mcbs wrote:
My local shop has it for $99.99

Mine too. Does it include expansions as well as updated art? Seems like it's a lot to pay just to avoid the ugly art of the earlier additions.
Don't get me wrong I like the box art on the premium addition tons better, but for $99 I could get a really nice art print and look at that. Now if this edition comes with all of the expansions...

Why would you pay $99 when you can buy it HERE for $60.00? The 2nd edition is $33 at the same place so you do need to decide if it is worth the extra cost. In addition to the revised artwork, it comes with actual metal coins (which are very nice), a cloth mat and cloth pouches for each player.

Also, other than the Jeweler tile (which is in this version and also included in the 2nd edition) I am not aware of any other expansions for this game.

Well since I am fortunate enough to have a great FLGS (Emphasis on the "F") in my area, I feel a compulsion to purchase from them. Therefor the cost for me is $99. But it's ok I won't be buying the premium edition anyways and don't mean to knock those who do. It just seems a bit much to double the price for not that much return. But to each their own. For some reason I thought another expansion came out but I think I was getting it confused with the Magna Carta Expansion. I do look forward to eventually purchasing the 2nd edition though.

Reply: Caylus:: News:: Re: Caylus Premium Limited Edition for ~$60

kneumann — Wed, 17 Jun 2009 16:51:29 +0000

by kneumann

Frankenfletch wrote:
mcbs wrote:
My local shop has it for $99.99

Mine too. Does it include expansions as well as updated art? Seems like it's a lot to pay just to avoid the ugly art of the earlier additions.
Don't get me wrong I like the box art on the premium addition tons better, but for $99 I could get a really nice art print and look at that. Now if this edition comes with all of the expansions...

Why would you pay $99 when you can buy it HERE for $60.00? The 2nd edition is $33 at the same place so you do need to decide if it is worth the extra cost. In addition to the revised artwork, it comes with actual metal coins (which are very nice), a cloth mat and cloth pouches for each player.

Also, other than the Jeweler tile (which is in this version and also included in the 2nd edition) I am not aware of any other expansions for this game.

Reply: Caylus:: News:: Re: Caylus Premium Limited Edition for ~$60

Frankenfletch — Wed, 17 Jun 2009 15:33:36 +0000

by Frankenfletch

mcbs wrote:
My local shop has it for $99.99

Mine too. Does it include expansions as well as updated art? Seems like it's a lot to pay just to avoid the ugly art of the earlier additions.
Don't get me wrong I like the box art on the premium addition tons better, but for $99 I could get a really nice art print and look at that. Now if this edition comes with all of the expansions...

Reply: Caylus:: General:: Re: Is the quality of play on BSW hurting the game?

sbauer9 — Tue, 16 Jun 2009 02:52:36 +0000

by sbauer9

russ wrote:
Would winning a game of strip Caylus with Condolezza Rice count?

Depends, BSW or F2F?

Reply: Caylus:: General:: Re: Premium or 2nd edition?

kneumann — Tue, 16 Jun 2009 01:42:45 +0000

by kneumann

mcbs wrote:
Local shop has it for $99.99

Although I paid more than $100 (with shipping) for it when I got my copy, at that price, I do not think it is worth it. However, now that you can buy the Premium for around $60 (see here), I think it is a closer call.

Reply: Caylus:: General:: Re: Premium or 2nd edition?

mcbs — Tue, 16 Jun 2009 01:02:46 +0000

by mcbs

Local shop has it for $99.99

Reply: Caylus:: News:: Re: Caylus Premium Limited Edition for ~$60

mcbs — Tue, 16 Jun 2009 01:00:56 +0000

by mcbs

My local shop has it for $99.99

Reply: Caylus:: General:: Re: Premium or 2nd edition?

Dollynoodle — Mon, 15 Jun 2009 23:58:06 +0000

by Dollynoodle

On average, how much extra does the premium edition cost? I'm also trying to decide... (a gift for a gaming friend)

Reply: Caylus:: General:: Re: Is the quality of play on BSW hurting the game?

russ — Mon, 15 Jun 2009 21:00:35 +0000

by russ

Would winning a game of strip Caylus with Condolezza Rice count?

Reply: Caylus:: General:: Re: What to do about missing components

aboveriver — Mon, 15 Jun 2009 19:52:26 +0000

by aboveriver

I wouldn't know what to suggest besides contacting the publisher.

Thread: Caylus:: General:: What to do about missing components

Weloi Avala — Mon, 15 Jun 2009 18:44:46 +0000

by Weloi Avala

Hello,

So I've just picked up a copy of Caylus and eagerly opened up the box and set it up for a trial run to get a hang of the rules... only to discover that I was missing several of the wooden disks--two or three of the colours didn't seem to have any.

Any suggestions as to what can I do about getting replacements?

-M.

Reply: Caylus:: General:: Re: Questions For Experienced Players: Favor Balance

JimF — Sun, 14 Jun 2009 22:43:23 +0000

by JimF

In all my plays (ftf and online) I've seen good use of all the tracks by experienced players apart from the resource track. I have good results and have never used the resource track. I probably use the other 3 tracks fairly evenly depending on how the game seems to be developing early on. Possibly use the denier track slightly more than the other two as it plays a good support role whichever other track you major on. So typically I will play either denier/presige or denier/building.

My suggestion for the resource track would be:
1) Food or Wood
2) Cloth or Stone
3) 1 resource trades for 2 basic resources
4) 2 basic resources
5) Gold

This is not too major a tweak but might entice more players to give the track a try.

If we compare level 5) Gold with the 5vp on offer on the prestige track. Gold is worth a base 3 vp but also offers you the possibility to turn it into more via building a blue building.

Reply: Caylus:: General:: Re: Is the quality of play on BSW hurting the game?

JoshtheGamer — Sun, 14 Jun 2009 22:05:48 +0000

by JoshtheGamer

Will you retract it if we all get together and play a 5er round of Caylus and take screen shots? :D

Reply: Caylus:: General:: Re: Is the quality of play on BSW hurting the game?

dcorban — Sun, 14 Jun 2009 21:57:45 +0000

by dcorban

If anyone wants to come forward and admit to getting Condoleeza Rice in bed, I will retract my statement.

Reply: Caylus:: General:: Re: Is the quality of play on BSW hurting the game?

russ — Sun, 14 Jun 2009 20:34:09 +0000

by russ

shroud wrote:
dcorban wrote:
... is harder than getting into Condolezza Rice's pants ...

And who, exactly, has attempted this feat?

Just because nobody's tried something doesn't mean it's not hard!

Reply: Caylus:: General:: Re: Is the quality of play on BSW hurting the game?

shroud — Sun, 14 Jun 2009 17:19:52 +0000

by shroud

dcorban wrote:
... is harder than getting into Condolezza Rice's pants ...

And who, exactly, has attempted this feat?

Reply: Caylus:: General:: Re: Questions For Experienced Players: Favor Balance

Zelif — Sun, 14 Jun 2009 02:27:31 +0000

by Zelif

shroud wrote:
Well, first off, there is no absolute answer as to which track is the best. It varies depending of the number of players and how a game unfolds (i.e. which buildings are built and when).

To my mind this is a dead-on assessment. We played twice last night, and the variety between the two games, even with the exact same playhers could not have been more different in the progress and the outcome.

Caylus is like a good game of hearts or Texas Hold 'Em. There is a flow and a variance to it that has to be seen to be described. There are two CRITICAL elements that infect every game (timing and the Bailiff) but the rest varies so widely on who chooses to do what when and how you (and the other players) respond in kind and react to the ever-changing environment.

Reply: Caylus:: General:: Re: Premium or 2nd edition?

marliv — Sat, 13 Jun 2009 06:26:29 +0000

by marliv

Winding road is cool looking while in reality it's like tile placing order switch direction several time to exactly oposite (not like lines in written text), the same time tile placing order is extremly important.

Board wraping way is a lit bit more convient .

Premimum edition have more details, but they not so bright and "working" parts are all larger (tiles, cube pictures, workers, resource cubes). For me premium edition is more functional.

Winding road gives to theme, but takes a lot of space on board - so we get small similar looking houses with cubes under.

Reply: Caylus:: General:: Re: Premium or 2nd edition?

voynix — Fri, 12 Jun 2009 22:53:48 +0000

by voynix

I ahve both. I like the 2nd edition better. I like the winding road rather than wrap around the board road

Reply: Caylus:: General:: Re: Is the quality of play on BSW hurting the game?

Abstractite — Fri, 12 Jun 2009 21:08:40 +0000

by Abstractite

Rather harsh comment, Binko, my friend;
Internet gaming is fun and convenient,
Learning is key and the winning is not,
Try to play spritely, don't let it affect you.

Maybe dactyls weren't the best in this situation, but oh well, it was fun :)

Reply: Caylus:: General:: Re: Is the quality of play on BSW hurting the game?

Binko — Fri, 12 Jun 2009 20:43:49 +0000

by Binko

I returned to boardgaming specifically so I could escape from the hard, faceless, mean-spirited world of online gaming.

Online gaming is convenient and challenging. But, in the end, it's not worth the cost to your spirit and your humanity.

Reply: Caylus:: General:: Re: Design Nit

dcorban — Fri, 12 Jun 2009 20:33:48 +0000

by dcorban

The residences are obvious, but I do agree with the Hotel. It is not normal for a prestige building to provide continuous benefits, so it could be easy to overlook. However, the player who has built the building is unlikely to forget to collect their money. ;)

Reply: Caylus:: General:: Re: Is the quality of play on BSW hurting the game?

dcorban — Fri, 12 Jun 2009 20:30:45 +0000

by dcorban

BSW is all about the three-player games. This would seem to heavily favor the expert players due to the deterministic play and higher chance of a blowout. I know that getting a five-player game on BSW is harder than getting into Condolezza Rice's pants, but I can't but think it would make it significantly easier for intermediate-low players to win.

Reply: Caylus:: General:: Re: Caylus SE

dcorban — Fri, 12 Jun 2009 20:24:07 +0000

by dcorban

ackmondual wrote:
That's one of the counterarguments to Microsoft Window's interface. "People are already used to it", is a strong, but still wrong reason.

I was a hardcore Windows guy (both professionally and as a hobby) for 15 years. Sure, it had a few annoyances, but for the most part, it seemed fine.

A few years ago, instead of upgrading my desktop, I got a MacBook. I have been a Mac guy since. Now, anytime I have to use Windows, it frustrates me to no end. It sounds stereotypical of a Mac user, but Windows really is that klunky and not user-friendly.

I have so far only played the original edition of Caylus. It will be interesting to see my reaction to Caylus OS X after a few plays. ;)

Reply: Caylus:: General:: Re: Premium or 2nd edition?

kneumann — Fri, 12 Jun 2009 19:33:09 +0000

by kneumann

I think it also depends on whether the players have already played on the 2nd Edition board before switching. When my group first transitioned to the Premium from the 2nd Edition, it took several games before it felt comfortable to us. Now that we have become familiar with the Premium board, I think it works well with a good balance of form and function. For new players who do not have another reference point, I don’t think the Premium board would be much more difficult to play (if at all) and I think it is actually set up in a very logical fashion.

Reply: Caylus:: General:: Re: Premium or 2nd edition?

LoMa — Fri, 12 Jun 2009 18:22:25 +0000

by LoMa

I play both and apprecaite both editions a lot. Oddly, it almost feels like you're playing a different game when playing with two editions. Kind of amazing how aesthetics can affect the feel of gameplay.

The premium edition certainly has a medieval feel and also more of a boxed in feel - much like walled medieval cities... the 2nd edition, on the other hand, has a much more modern feel with its urban sprawl. Overall, I prefer the meandering road of the 2nd edition - it is brighter, and it feels like there is a lot of apace to be exploited by competitive medieval real estate developers... As you go down that meandering road, you feel like you're getting someplace, so the progression of the game is reinforced psychologically.

I'm glad to have both editions, but if I only had one, I would choose the 2nd edition. I've also pimped out my 2nd edition version with meeples from Antike, which I rarely play anymore, to replace the rolly rods for the workers.

That's my take!

Reply: Caylus:: General:: Re: Premium or 2nd edition?

GaryP — Fri, 12 Jun 2009 18:02:17 +0000

by GaryP

jcr13 wrote:
...the premium is beautiful, but the premium looks "busier" and harder to parse. I guess I feel that way about most of Doyle's artwork... gorgeous, but too many visual details that might distract from the gameplay. I guess that the premium edition looks "scarier" when trying to understand the rules... not a good thing when trying to explain such a complicated game to new players.

You have already summed it up nicely. I rather like the 2nd edition artwork as it is, but I can understand it lacking appeal for others. I very much appreciate the art in the Premium edition, but as the number of tiles increases, it becomes visually incomprehensible. Even as a fairly experienced player, there is a lot to take in, and extracting the data can be a chore. I think I would have found it overly frustrating if my first game was with the Premium set. That's my take.

Thread: Caylus:: General:: Premium or 2nd edition?

jcr13 — Fri, 12 Jun 2009 17:25:41 +0000

by jcr13

When buying Caylus (first time, never played it), which version would people recommend? Everyone that I've heard from says that the premium edition is beautiful, but that they still use the 2nd edition every time they play.

In looking at both, I agree that the 2nd edition is a bit on the ugly side, and that the premium is beautiful, but the premium looks "busier" and harder to parse. I guess I feel that way about most of Doyle's artwork... gorgeous, but too many visual details that might distract from the gameplay. I guess that the premium edition looks "scarier" when trying to understand the rules... not a good thing when trying to explain such a complicated game to new players.

Looking for input from people who have played both versions: which do you prefer?

Reply: Caylus:: News:: Re: Caylus Premium Limited Edition for ~$60

kneumann — Thu, 11 Jun 2009 18:56:16 +0000

by kneumann

decumanusmaximus wrote:
I appreciate the heads up on this one. Greatly appreciated!

Glad to help. I know some don't like the board design and/or darker artwork as much, but after a few plays with the new board, I like it a lot (and the coins are very cool).

Reply: Caylus:: News:: Re: Caylus Premium Limited Edition for ~$60

decumanusmaximus — Thu, 11 Jun 2009 17:06:57 +0000

by decumanusmaximus

I appreciate the heads up on this one. Greatly appreciated!

Thread: Caylus:: News:: Caylus Premium Limited Edition for ~$60

kneumann — Thu, 11 Jun 2009 08:51:49 +0000

by kneumann

This version:
]]>

Looks like a few shops are offering this edition for ~$60

Here are a few I saw:

gamesurplus
TWS
cardhaus

New Image for Caylus

angeral — Wed, 10 Jun 2009 02:38:47 +0000

by angeral

Caylus @ JoolClub, learning ......

]]>

Reply: Caylus:: Reviews:: Re: Caylus: demanding, frustrating yet absolutely fantastic

Abstractite — Mon, 08 Jun 2009 16:19:45 +0000

by Abstractite

Caylus was my gateway game!!! No fooling!

Reply: Caylus:: Reviews:: Re: Caylus: demanding, frustrating yet absolutely fantastic

Philia — Mon, 08 Jun 2009 01:33:16 +0000

by Philia

I like your point, Steven Duff. I think it actually is a great way to introduce the concept of strategical play by play a game like caylus in a light way :shake: and allow those occasional players to enjoy themselves. As time goes by, they will discover good and bad moves themselves, if they want to, and that will give them the feeling of "conquering" the game themselves.

Then Caylus becomes a real gateway game!:)

Reply: Caylus:: General:: Re: Caylus SE

ohbalto — Sat, 06 Jun 2009 06:01:08 +0000

by ohbalto

Put in a preorder for the SE by way of Cardhaus.com a while back.

Just spotted an email from them which says it . . . shipped? Weird. So anti-climactic . . .

Reply: Caylus:: General:: Re: Questions For Experienced Players: Favor Balance

shroud — Thu, 04 Jun 2009 21:31:55 +0000

by shroud

In the 2 player game the building track is almost always considered the best option, and both players usually work towards that track first. Depending on the initial board layout (which is of course random) some players can make a carpenter strategy work vs a building track strategy by getting the Mason out early. Usually this involves having an early monopoly on stone and having a money advantage over your opponent. To be honest, I am not an expert on this type of strategy and it is extremely rare and complicated, so it would take a long time to explain in full. I only know of one top 20 player who uses it with any frequency, but he has won a fair amount of games with that strategy.

But, for simplicity's sake, just accept that the building track is the strongest in 2ers the vast majority of the time. The reason for this is that it allows you to have two batches in the castle by the end of phase 1. This gives you 10 points and from 2-3 favors, depending on whether or not you delivered your batches in 1 or 2 visits and won at the castle during those visits. At the end of phase 1 if you have earned at least two favors you will be able to build a wood building as your favor (usually a 4 point one). This will have earned you 14 points in phase 1 and you will go into phase 2 being able to build 1-2 stone farms in its first round via favors (by winning the castle and/or by going to the joust). If you do not go the building track route, your only way to build stone farms is via the Mason, and your opponent (who likely went for the building track strategy) can go there as well. Given how extremely valuable the stone farms are, it should be clear who probably has the advantage in this situation.

After the stone farms have been built good players usually use their next favors to build the Bank, Church, and then Architects. The other stone buildings have less of a priority. Usually phase 2 is drawing to a close at this time and each player will usually get 2-3 extra favors from their castle builds at end of phase scoring. It is now that players will start to focus on a secondary track, if they have not already done so. I used to think that the point track was almost always superior to the money track, but this is not always the case. If the Lawyer is not out, it becomes harder to get a powerful income. If the Market is not out money is also tighter. If the Bank and Peddler have been built, the money track can be very powerful. Note that money can be transferred into points on a one-for-one basis at the cost of committing a worker to the Church ($1 to place, then $2 for 3 points or $4 for 5 points) or Bank ($1 to enter, then $2 for 1 gold or $5 for 2 gold). Gold is worth 3 points each at the end of a game, but potentially it is worth much more when converted into prestige buildings. ladymara has her own valuation system and she figures that gold is worth about 3.5 points on average. So basically the Bank is the major reason for going the money track. It also helps in being able to afford the Peddler, which will translate into more castle wins and/or more prestige buildings. The Church is usually only an afterthought for end of game scoring.

I will note that even the resource track can be useful as a 3rd favor at the end of phase 2. If you do not need money, I find it to be a good option, especially in a Lawyer/Market game because there are less resources available since residences will be covering the neutral pink buildings. At the end of phase 3 you can sometimes hit the resource track for the 2nd time to get a wood or stone cube and be able to build a valuable prestige building you wouldn't have been able to otherwise.

Well, that was extremely long-winded, but basically for the 2 player game the strength of the tracks is:

1) Building Track
2) Money/Point Track
3) Money/Point Track
4) Resource Track

For 3+ player games I believe a carpenter strategy is the strongest route, especially if the other players go for the building track. The reason for this is that there are less resources to go around in phase 1 when there are more players. It is a struggle for the other players to get 2 batches in the castle and have enough resources left over to get a stone farm out during the first round of phase 2. Meanwhile, as a carpenter player, you build all of the good wood buildings before the building track players get to use their 2nd favor to build theirs.

In a 3 player game you should be able to build 3-4 of the 4 point buildings. That is not only 16 points, but you are denying your opponents 2 points because they will have to build the leftover wood buildings. In addition, you own the first four buildings. They will earn you a small fortune in points as other players continue to place on them for the rest of the game. After this foundation is laid, you try to use your Mason to get 1 stone farm out for yourself, but it is not as important since stone farms will be further down the road (due to your 4 wood buildings plus the 2 of your opponents) and thus be used less during the course of the game. They provide less return to their owner.

Anyway, rather than discuss the whole strategy of the carpenter build, just understand that it is usually the strongest path in a 3+ player game, provided you know how to play it. This being the case, I find the point track to be the most powerful in a 3+ player game. As a carpenter player, your next most valuable avenue is the money track, then the cube track. If you are playing as a building track player either the point track or money track could be the best option as a secondary track, depending on which buildings are in play, just as in the 2 player game. But, if there is a carpenter player, the point track will usually be the best choice since the Lawyer and Market will be in play for money.

So for 3+ player games I would rate the strength of the tracks as follows (assuming you are a competent carpenter player):

1) Point Track
2) Money Track
3) Resource Track
4) Building Track

If you choose the building track route then it will usually be:

1) Building Track
2) Point Track
3) Money Track
4) Resource Track

Universally (considering all the players in a 3+ game, not just individual strategies) I guess it would be:

1) Point Track
2) Build Track
3) Money Track
4) Resource Track

But most times you will only focus on two tracks in 3+ player games. There simply aren't as many favors to go around as you add more players. Also, the more players you add, the more powerful the carpenter strategy becomes.

This post is long enough as is, but I still left a lot of details out. Let me know if you have any specific questions concerning this subject.

Reply: Caylus:: General:: Re: Questions For Experienced Players: Favor Balance

JohnRayJr — Thu, 04 Jun 2009 20:16:03 +0000

by JohnRayJr

shroud wrote:
But I do not mind reiterating if you are curious.

Please do. I'd like to hear a bit about the variable strengths of the prestige/denier/building tracks.

shroud wrote:
There is, however, a definite answer as to what the worst track is overall. The resource track is the red-headed step-child of the bunch for sure. The problem is that cubes don't increment as cleanly as points and money. However, ladymara (#3 player on ladder) suggested what I regard as the best improvement to the resource track without bastardizing it by adding a bit of money to the current favors (my idea). Her idea goes like this:

1) food
2) any basic resource (not gold)
3) turn any one into any basic two (not gold)
4) gold
5) any two basic (not gold)

.

I like that a lot. It has a more even progression than anything I was coming up with.

Reply: Caylus:: General:: Re: Questions For Experienced Players: Favor Balance

shroud — Thu, 04 Jun 2009 20:04:04 +0000

by shroud

Well, first off, there is no absolute answer as to which track is the best. It varies depending of the number of players and how a game unfolds (i.e. which buildings are built and when). I could elaborate if you wish, but these things have been discussed in other threads. But I do not mind reiterating if you are curious.

There is, however, a definite answer as to what the worst track is overall. The resource track is the red-headed step-child of the bunch for sure. The problem is that cubes don't increment as cleanly as points and money. However, ladymara (#3 player on ladder) suggested what I regard as the best improvement to the resource track without bastardizing it by adding a bit of money to the current favors (my idea). Her idea goes like this:

1) food
2) any basic resource (not gold)
3) turn any one into any basic two (not gold)
4) gold
5) any two basic (not gold)

Thread: Caylus:: General:: Questions For Experienced Players: Favor Balance

JohnRayJr — Thu, 04 Jun 2009 19:36:01 +0000

by JohnRayJr

Caylus is one of the rare games that I don't get to play as much as I'd like to. I've just hit 10 plays (over a 2 year period). I always enjoy the experience of playing and am a bit awed by the design. I think I can play competently enough but I'm out of my league against the so-called "Caylus Commandos" (thank you, Scott Nicholson). One thing I've noticed is that winning players prefer the building favor track, with the prestige track a close second. The denier track seems to work OK as a secondary track in some cases. The resource track seems universally ignored (if we define "universally" as "during the course of 10 plays with a handful of different opponents"). I've constructed a poll that (hopefully) allows experienced players to offer detailed and precise perspectives on the favor tracks. Discussion is encouraged. If my questions seem to gloss over something, please reply with your own point of view.

[poll=27946]

Reply: Caylus:: Rules:: Re: Track 4 - The building track.

chrisnd — Mon, 01 Jun 2009 14:31:20 +0000

by chrisnd

Brudha wrote:
You do not have to advance this track and later activate a worker at a construction building and get a discount.

Instead, you get to build at the time you advance the favor track, with the indicated advantage.

Thanks for the succinctly stated comment.

I played on Friday, and this came up. I bought and placed the tailor for cheap by using a favor, got 6 points, and my opponent questioned if that was how the favor track really worked. We concluded that it did work that way, and your response to this question confirms it for us.

Thanks!

Reply: Caylus:: General:: Re: Is the quality of play on BSW hurting the game?

jondeefool — Fri, 29 May 2009 18:52:48 +0000

by jondeefool

dklx3 wrote:
Any skill game I want to be able to play with my regular gaming group, I can never play on BSW. Caylus was the game where I made this mistake. I played 100s of games.. and then it came to the table at game night.. where I realized I was going to mindlessly thrash the others.. backed off, and only beat them soundly. I never brought it to the table again. Being able to be beaten is part of the joy of gaming.

thats totally the ekspereince i had with Caylus.

There is all the same strength and weaknesses i Caylus as in chess and go and so on!

Reply: Caylus:: General:: Re: Is the quality of play on BSW hurting the game?

JoshtheGamer — Fri, 29 May 2009 18:47:06 +0000

by JoshtheGamer

I would just guess how much you think you can win by, and place your prestige marker behind the 0 spot :)

Reply: Caylus:: General:: Re: Is the quality of play on BSW hurting the game?

LexH — Fri, 29 May 2009 18:29:54 +0000

by LexH

Abstractite wrote:
Good idea russ, I thought the same thing. Maybe a beginner with more resources? I don't know, most people I teach Caylus to are reluctant to be given an advantage. "Just play," they say.

I would probably recommend the most direct possible advantage, that of extra VP. Anything else can create problems. Go has a nice handicap system because it fits into the game comfortably. But most handicap effects should not change the nature of the game.

Removing or adding resources changes the opening balance, and most other handicaps would do the same. But adjusting VP score directly (or as a percentage to compensate for # of players) seems to me the most fair.

As a rule I don't really find playing handicapped games to be that much fun. The only exception is bowling and that is because the handicap is pretty much a VP bonus and it doesn't effect the play. It just lets both players feel they have a chance to win the prize.

- Lex

Reply: Caylus:: General:: Re: Is the quality of play on BSW hurting the game?

Abstractite — Fri, 29 May 2009 18:20:56 +0000

by Abstractite

Good idea russ, I thought the same thing. Maybe a beginner with more resources? I don't know, most people I teach Caylus to are reluctant to be given an advantage. "Just play," they say.

Reply: Caylus:: General:: Re: Is the quality of play on BSW hurting the game?

russ — Fri, 29 May 2009 16:18:02 +0000

by russ

People worried about being way too strong so that it causes trouble with their local weaker gaming group who will feel bad that they have no chance to win could always simply take the accepted custom from the game of go and handicap the stronger player, so that everyone has an equally challenging game and chance to win.

E.g. you start Caylus with less money, or your final score in Caylus is reduced by 10% or whatever seems appropriate and mutually agreeable. One player being stronger really doesn't have to mean the game is no longer fun or interesting for people to play.

Reply: Caylus:: General:: Re: Is the quality of play on BSW hurting the game?

LexH — Fri, 29 May 2009 16:01:47 +0000

by LexH

Abstractite wrote:
Finally, another 2+ page forum about Caylus! :1vp:

I must admit I didn't expect this topic to have so many responses. That alone might invalidate my original premise.

I do feel Caylus could use some more intermediate players. I think it is healthy for the development of a game to have developmental level activities.

Partly as a result of this thread I have had the good fortune to play a few good games and chat with various people. For me that is a fairly rewarding experience. I does mean that at this point I probably won't be able to play FtF because the competition would be uncompetitive at this point.

- Lex

Reply: Caylus:: General:: Re: Is the quality of play on BSW hurting the game?

Abstractite — Thu, 28 May 2009 20:14:23 +0000

by Abstractite

Finally, another 2+ page forum about Caylus! :1vp:

Reply: Caylus:: General:: Re: Is the quality of play on BSW hurting the game?

dklx3 — Thu, 28 May 2009 18:25:54 +0000

by dklx3

Russ - sensible approach. We get together once every two months and typically play 4-6 games, length dependent. That means Caylus might have seen the table twice in a given year, given the other games we want to play. There is no question that Caylus has a very steep learning curve. By advancing so far along that curve on my own time, I unwittingly gained an essentially insurmountable advantage.

While I can definitely see having played my best and not slacking off, it was only in that game that I relaized what an enormous difference all those BSW games had made. Even if we played tens of 'teaching' games, I am unsure the rest of the group would get there.. and there are just too many other games we all love that don't have a situation where one player developed an 'unfair' advantage. The 'lowest common denonimator' has little to do with it. While I am nowhere near the greatest Caylus player of all time, it would be like Michael Jordan showing up for a basketball game.. and realizing that he was on the floor with 3rd graders... It just becomes a different experience and he would not be there to compete.

Reply: Caylus:: General:: Re: Is the quality of play on BSW hurting the game?

russ — Thu, 28 May 2009 17:40:40 +0000

by russ

My take on this is totally different.

If I'm stronger than the other players in my group (for whatever reason, not necessarily due to playing on BSW - maybe I'm just more experienced at that kind of game, or I studied on my own, or whatever), I simply try to help the other players improve their own skills and get stronger. That benefits us all much more than me intentionally sabotaging my own development and growth in a Harrison Bergeron-like attempt to keep everyone equal at the lowest common denominator.

Conversely, I certainly wouldn't want or expect anyone else in my group to intentionally not improve at a game we play together! I'm happy to see anyone improve their skills, all the more if it's a friend I game with regularly!

Reply: Caylus:: General:: Re: Is the quality of play on BSW hurting the game?

shroud — Thu, 28 May 2009 17:26:28 +0000

by shroud

Gabriel Guerin wrote:
apotheos wrote:
I can't think of a case where casual play with friends and loved ones is not totally ruined by playing in the competitive environment of BSW.

I played 1 game of Dominion on there are realized it would ruin all my enjoyment of playing the game with others if I kept playing it.

Fully agreed. I played Carcassonne many times on BSW, but mostly on 2P games and in a far more competitive way than I ever played FtF. I then tried playing this way at friends' (indulging that in the meantime I had improved my gameplay with it), but soon I realized that I was spoiling them from all the enjoyment we had playing together! So I learned that playing on BSW isn't social playing at all. It can be polite, but it isn't social.

I am going to have to disagree. I have had long conversations about Caylus with a lot of other players on BSW. The result is that the online Caylus community gets better. We have even discussed which other games we like. But I do limit myself to only Caylus on BSW. It rarely gets played in my face-to-face group anyway. If you really love a game, I see nothing wrong with playing it on BSW and working towards perfection. It is not as if there is a shortage of other games to play nowadays. As long as you aren't trying to master most of the games on BSW, I don't see how it will really negatively affect your playgroup unless they only play a handful of games for some reason.

Reply: Caylus:: General:: Re: Is the quality of play on BSW hurting the game?

shroud — Thu, 28 May 2009 17:18:15 +0000

by shroud

JoshtheGamer wrote:
There can't be that many big guides out there, so it must be the one you speak of. E-mailing it to you.

Actually it is the Tao of Gaming review by Brian Bankler. He just added on to his original article. It is still dated January 2006, so it is indeed quite old. At the time he wrote it he states he had only played 10 games (I don't even know if Caylus was on BSW at this time or not). This is another reason why I would like to produce a modern guide. I believe there is just a genuine need for one, to benefit both new and intermediate players and to help the game grow stronger.

And thanks for emailing it to me! I was very curious.

Reply: Caylus:: General:: Re: Is the quality of play on BSW hurting the game?

Gabriel Guerin — Thu, 28 May 2009 16:11:09 +0000

by Gabriel Guerin

apotheos wrote:
I can't think of a case where casual play with friends and loved ones is not totally ruined by playing in the competitive environment of BSW.

I played 1 game of Dominion on there are realized it would ruin all my enjoyment of playing the game with others if I kept playing it.

Fully agreed. I played Carcassonne many times on BSW, but mostly on 2P games and in a far more competitive way than I ever played FtF. I then tried playing this way at friends' (indulging that in the meantime I had improved my gameplay with it), but soon I realized that I was spoiling them from all the enjoyment we had playing together! So I learned that playing on BSW isn't social playing at all. It can be polite, but it isn't social.

Reply: Caylus:: General:: Re: Is the quality of play on BSW hurting the game?

schmanthony — Thu, 28 May 2009 16:03:08 +0000

by schmanthony

I'm absolutely addicted to Caylus, and I've only played it on BSW, where I am regularly smoked. I might have won 1 or 2 of my first 20 games - and I'm sure those were both to other noobs.

I'm slowly improving though. When I play expert players, I set vague personal goals. For example, if my total score is 2/3 or 75% of my opponent's, I may feel that I have succeeded.

It must be daunting to introduce this game in real life to a bunch of people who have never played it. I look forward to this opportunity - should I ever have it - as a challenge in itself. I will almost certainly moderate the game instead of play.

Reply: Caylus:: General:: Re: Is the quality of play on BSW hurting the game?

dklx3 — Thu, 28 May 2009 16:01:59 +0000

by dklx3

Any skill game I want to be able to play with my regular gaming group, I can never play on BSW. Caylus was the game where I made this mistake. I played 100s of games.. and then it came to the table at game night.. where I realized I was going to mindlessly thrash the others.. backed off, and only beat them soundly. I never brought it to the table again. Being able to be beaten is part of the joy of gaming.

Reply: Caylus:: General:: Re: Is the quality of play on BSW hurting the game?

LexH — Thu, 28 May 2009 15:44:29 +0000

by LexH

As an aside, got my first two wins online last night. There were two great things about it:

One, one of the wins was against a player at my level. It made for a good competitive game.

Two, we did have an expert (Fallen) willing to share his thoughts as we played. I found it useful to get some comments and thoughts.

One thing that has been nice is playing enough people who have different views. I have noticed certain things they all say you should do, and some things they disagree about.

Anyhow, the more intermediate players the game has the better I think the game will be over time. People need a learning curve, not an EVE Online do-or-die curve (though it works for EVE).

- Lex

Reply: Caylus:: General:: Re: Is the quality of play on BSW hurting the game?

JoshtheGamer — Thu, 28 May 2009 15:21:44 +0000

by JoshtheGamer

There can't be that many big guides out there, so it must be the one you speak of. E-mailing it to you.

Reply: Caylus:: General:: Re: Is the quality of play on BSW hurting the game?

shroud — Thu, 28 May 2009 14:57:40 +0000

by shroud

fardoche wrote:
please post it when you are done! It would be awesome to read that!

That is the plan, if I can ever recommit myself to finishing it :o)

Reply: Caylus:: General:: Re: Is the quality of play on BSW hurting the game?

shroud — Thu, 28 May 2009 14:50:21 +0000

by shroud

Hmm, I did not know that there was such a large strategy document for Caylus here on the geek (and I have looked). Was it not in the Caylus forums themselves? I think I would have noticed. That said, I know of one other guy that had a work in progress guide over 20 pages as well. It was titled "cs" at the time he sent it to me. I also gave out my work-in-progress guide to a few people who asked for it as well. It was titled "CaylusStrategy" and started out with several links to other Caylus resources I found of use.

Is the guide you speak of, by chance, one of ours? If you don't think so, I would like to see it myself. I will PM you my email address. The largest strategy guide I have seen posted on the Caylus forums was by the Tao of Gaming and it came in at 13 pages. It is also 3.5 years old now, so it is rather dated.

Reply: Caylus:: General:: Re: Is the quality of play on BSW hurting the game?

JoshtheGamer — Thu, 28 May 2009 12:05:12 +0000

by JoshtheGamer

Lex: PM or message me if you want to play sometime on BSW. I think I fall into the intermediate category, but I am pretty rusty these days. My account is JoshtheGamer

I do have a 21 page strategy document. I am not sure who wrote it though, but I found it on the forums awhile back. PM me if you want the file (I cant find the thread that I got it from anymore).

Reply: Caylus:: General:: Re: Is the quality of play on BSW hurting the game?

fardoche — Thu, 28 May 2009 09:41:28 +0000

by fardoche

shroud wrote:
I wrote a 20+ page strategy guide for Caylus about a year ago, but I never finished it (probably at around 75% complete). One of my main reasons for writing it was to increase interest in the game and to hopefully produce more quality players and improve the overall level of competition. Every time I see a post like this it inspires me to go and work on it a little bit more, so thanks.

please post it when you are done! It would be awesome to read that!

Reply: Caylus:: General:: Re: Is the quality of play on BSW hurting the game?

shroud — Thu, 28 May 2009 02:40:26 +0000

by shroud

Lex, you must be Lexander, right? I have seen you online a few times. I know a guy from my face-to-face group who has just gotten into Caylus, Normandy (same name here on BGG too). He has been playing a lot online recently too. You two should get some games going, as you should be close to the same skill level.

But you will learn more and become better faster by playing against people who stomp you, provided you have patience and are actively trying to learn from both your mistakes and what the other person is doing right. There are some douche bags on BSW, no doubt, but I find most people to be friendly and to show respect to their fellow players. Many will even stick around after a game and give you some tips if you ask them.

The guy I learned the most from is BenderRodriguez. He was the dominant player over the last year (when I started playing online) holding the #1 spot on the ELO for probably 95%+ of that time, often with a buffer of nearly 100 points. Over the last 6 months or so a few other strong players have emerged and one of them (ickoicko) has now surpassed Bender for the time being. Another top 5 player, ladymara, went from complete noob to #2 on ELO in only a few months, although she plays infrequently nowadays. Similarly, a player with the nick of TomBrady went from being a good 3+ player to focusing on 2ers and climbed to the #1 position for a brief time.

These four players are the best 2er players at Caylus, in a separate class from the rest. I know all of them very well (online well anyway) except for ickoicko (he plays at different hours than when I am on; but seems nice from what I've seen of him) and all of them have been willing to answer questions from newer players when asked.

There are actually a lot of intermediate players out there. The real problem is that there aren't many noobies! Even the intermediate players should be beating noobies by 20+ points, whereas a top 20 player might even double a nooby's score. Likewise, top 20 players will routinely smash intermediate players by 20+ points. The top four players often beat top 20 players by 10+ points.

I also think that Caylus is still slowly growing, not fading. The ELO scores have been slowly increasing when I look at the top 40 list. Six+ months ago the rating for the 40th position was 1698. Today it is 1724. I believe the highest Bender ever got was 2196 (he is 2145 right now). ickoicko is at 2188 (his personal high) and is still rising, and he may well become the first player to ever reach 2200+. All of this tells me that Caylus is still growing, albeit slowly.

I wrote a 20+ page strategy guide for Caylus about a year ago, but I never finished it (probably at around 75% complete). One of my main reasons for writing it was to increase interest in the game and to hopefully produce more quality players and improve the overall level of competition. Every time I see a post like this it inspires me to go and work on it a little bit more, so thanks.

Fallen... is my name on BSW. Feel free to ask me any questions you may have. I am more of a student of the game nowadays, and have not played much in a long while, but I still understand the game very well from watching the best play each other.

New Image for Caylus

Brisse — Wed, 27 May 2009 22:19:26 +0000

by Brisse

Playing the game at a swedish game convention.

]]>

New Image for Caylus

Brisse — Wed, 27 May 2009 22:18:36 +0000

by Brisse

Game in progress

]]>

Reply: Caylus:: General:: Re: Is the quality of play on BSW hurting the game?

russ — Wed, 27 May 2009 21:32:02 +0000

by russ

yardapeJV wrote:
I think you're missing the point. So the problem isn't that there is a wide range of Caylus skill levels. The problem is that there doesn't seem to be anyone in the middle, at least not on BSW.

Interesting point indeed, and I see what you mean better now.

I wonder what percentage of Caylus games that are played in the world happen on BSW specifically. I mean that as a sincere, not rhetorical, question - I have no idea. I personally don't play it on BSW much at all (and when I did it was with people I know in real life) nor do other Caylus players I know in real life.

I'm trying to imagine being a newbie to the game and getting crushed on BSW as my first exposure to Caylus. I don't think that would make me stop playing the game. I play the game because I think it's a cool interesting game, not because of whether I win a lot or lose a lot or whether a lot of people are weaker than me or stronger than me.

There are plenty of mediocre chess and go players, of which I am one, but mediocre players seem rarer for Caylus. I know that I've enjoyed Caylus the few times I've played but have been completely turned off from playing on BSW for fear of being crushed. So I certainly agree with the post, because I am one of those fearful newbs he's referring to.

I guess I'm not so fearful of being beaten. I enjoy watching a skilled player work their magic, and it usually helps me learn something new and improve at least a little as well.

I'm more fearful of the many stories I hear of rude or impatient play at BSW, with people who've played the game many times getting angry if you need to think longer than they do. Or of ratings-obsessed people who quit the game if they're losing.

I also think I'm in the middle; certainly better than a newbie, but I'm sure someone who's played Caylus 100 times would crush me.

Reply: Caylus:: General:: Re: Is the quality of play on BSW hurting the game?

Abstractite — Wed, 27 May 2009 21:29:48 +0000

by Abstractite

LexH wrote:
What happened to the intermediate players? Did they all leave or have they all become experts?

- Lex

I'm one! I'm one!

Reply: Caylus:: General:: Re: Is the quality of play on BSW hurting the game?

LexH — Wed, 27 May 2009 21:13:59 +0000

by LexH

yardapeJV wrote:

I think you're missing the point. So the problem isn't that there is a wide range of Caylus skill levels. The problem is that there doesn't seem to be anyone in the middle, at least not on BSW. There are plenty of mediocre chess and go players, of which I am one, but mediocre players seem rarer for Caylus. I know that I've enjoyed Caylus the few times I've played but have been completely turned off from playing on BSW for fear of being crushed. So I certainly agree with the post, because I am one of those fearful newbs he's referring to.

Very much my point. Most of the time when I setup a game some player with a ton of games comes in and it is a painful game. Every so often I get a 3-player game where it is 2 newbies and an expert.

I do enjoy playing on BSW. I had the pleasure of getting thumped by Worthy the other day and I had the distinct knowledge that not only did he have a counter for every move but at least I could see the counter.

As I play it is getting easier to see why I am losing. The victories are by smaller and smaller amounts.

I never get the distinctive pleasure of playing someone near my level (I finally did last night in 1 game, and the other .5 game before the real newbie bailed). Someone near your level isn't going to teach you as much but you get to at least see how you might make a move that is hard to counter.

What keeps some people coming back is simple competition. The possibility of winning and the possibility of losing. Preordained games are simply not as much fun.

What happened to the intermediate players? Did they all leave or have they all become experts?

- Lex

Reply: Caylus:: General:: Re: Is the quality of play on BSW hurting the game?

Abstractite — Wed, 27 May 2009 20:41:32 +0000

by Abstractite

yardapeJV wrote:
The problem is that there doesn't seem to be anyone in the middle

I am! I am!

Reply: Caylus:: General:: Re: Is the quality of play on BSW hurting the game?

Ambrose — Wed, 27 May 2009 19:17:36 +0000

by Ambrose

russ wrote:
The spread between a top Go or Chess player and a beginner is probably much wider still than the spread between a top Caylus player and a beginner...

Abstractite "Caylus Advocate" will not agree with you. ;) :laugh:

On a serious note, I agree with you and I'm sure he will also.

Reply: Caylus:: General:: Re: Is the quality of play on BSW hurting the game?

yardapeJV — Wed, 27 May 2009 19:02:31 +0000

by yardapeJV

russ wrote:
This kind of question baffles me. Any strategy game can be played seriously or lightly. Any deep strategy game will have a wide range of player skills. The spread between a top Go or Chess player and a beginner is probably much wider still than the spread between a top Caylus player and a beginner, but that hasn't hurt Go and Chess. The fact that there are players who can crush me in Go and Caylus does not dampen my enjoyment of the games. For ANY deep game, there will almost certainly be players who can crush me.

I think you're missing the point. So the problem isn't that there is a wide range of Caylus skill levels. The problem is that there doesn't seem to be anyone in the middle, at least not on BSW. There are plenty of mediocre chess and go players, of which I am one, but mediocre players seem rarer for Caylus. I know that I've enjoyed Caylus the few times I've played but have been completely turned off from playing on BSW for fear of being crushed. So I certainly agree with the post, because I am one of those fearful newbs he's referring to.

Reply: Caylus:: General:: Re: Is the quality of play on BSW hurting the game?

LexH — Wed, 27 May 2009 18:44:38 +0000

by LexH

As an aside, I got 1.5 games of Caylus in last night.

Twice in two days a player has bailed on the game when behind. My win record is a glorious 0 of 20 and I think some of the weaker players are beginning to try to pad their records playing me.

I still very much enjoy this game. I am just troubled to see so few intermediate players.

I do play Go, and in Go I can usually find a player at my level (about at 15 kyu last I had any sort of ranking). Go has a lot of players at different levels.

I will continue to play Caylus for awhile, so the game is hardly dead.

- Lex

Reply: Caylus:: General:: Re: Is the quality of play on BSW hurting the game?

russ — Wed, 27 May 2009 18:13:40 +0000

by russ

This kind of question baffles me. Any strategy game can be played seriously or lightly. Any deep strategy game will have a wide range of player skills. The spread between a top Go or Chess player and a beginner is probably much wider still than the spread between a top Caylus player and a beginner, but that hasn't hurt Go and Chess. The fact that there are players who can crush me in Go and Caylus does not dampen my enjoyment of the games. For ANY deep game, there will almost certainly be players who can crush me.

Reply: Caylus Expansion: The Jeweller:: General:: Re: Anyone want to part with The Jeweller for some GG?

BlackRainbow — Wed, 27 May 2009 17:32:17 +0000

by BlackRainbow

Hi there,

I've just ordered the tile from ystari.com ( http://www.ystari.com/catalog/).

They recently (one week ago if not less) added it to their store.

You're welcome ;)

Reply: Caylus:: General:: Re: Is the quality of play on BSW hurting the game?

JoshtheGamer — Wed, 27 May 2009 09:55:51 +0000

by JoshtheGamer

Some new players will without a doubt be discouraged after facing crushing losses, but that can be said about go and chess which remain popular today.

I get the feeling that there are two main groups of Caylus players:

- People who played the game a few times in a casual setting and enjoyed it. They play it infrequently, yet still appreciate it.

- People who got obsessed with Caylus and enrolled in the Caylus Commando Cult.

The game will always have a cult following, especially on BSW.

The question is this: Is the cult growing?

In the last couple of months when I have been on BSW, I actually recall seeing more Caylus games on the game manager then I saw 6 months ago.

I wonder how often Caylus gets played live. I have a tough time getting it to the table in my game group. I wonder if other Caylus fans have much success getting it to the table with their gamer friends.

Most people in my group seems to be so interested in playing so many different games that I find it hard to get any game to the table with consistency. Does anyone else find themselves in this situation?

I would prefer to play and master a few different games instead of spending a lot of time learning how to play lots and lots of different games, constantly moving on to new games.

I enjoy refining and mastering strategies and tactics in games, and with many games it will take at least 50 plays, not a handful.

When I shop for games, I read the rules once or maybe twice and play online a few times if possible to ensure that it has a fair amount of depth and replay value. I want to turn the game inside out, upside down, push it to the limit and get my money's worth.

Maybe that is what makes me a Caylus player though. :)

Reply: Caylus:: General:: Re: Is the quality of play on BSW hurting the game?

Abstractite — Wed, 27 May 2009 02:47:33 +0000

by Abstractite

Ambrose wrote:
yeah, but Dominion? :shake: Just amazing.

Same with Tichu.

Reply: Caylus:: General:: Re: Is the quality of play on BSW hurting the game?

Ambrose — Wed, 27 May 2009 02:04:49 +0000

by Ambrose

yeah, but Dominion? :shake: Just amazing.

Reply: Caylus:: General:: Re: Is the quality of play on BSW hurting the game?

sbauer9 — Wed, 27 May 2009 01:56:54 +0000

by sbauer9

It has been my experience that games on BSW are very popular when first released and all but a few drop to almost zero plays after a short period of time. Caylus has had more staying power than many but it has almost completely dropped of as of late. I don't think this says anything about caylus but just the normal pattern of games that are played on BSW.

Reply: Caylus:: General:: Re: Is the quality of play on BSW hurting the game?

Abstractite — Tue, 26 May 2009 23:43:07 +0000

by Abstractite

You might ask, "How could Go survive?" Because Go has 4000 years of tradition behind it. On the other hand, Caylus does not. And yet, it is rated above Go. Kind of strange when you think of it, because it seems Caylus gets more flak in the forums than Go does.
Actually, I see a general decline in the game ratings, as if people have decided that they don't like games as much as they used to. Weird.

P.S. Caylus and Go (and any other heavy game, for that matter) can be played lightly, but that takes part of the fun out of it. I think heavily about Caylus in order to RELAX. ;)

Reply: Caylus:: General:: Re: Is the quality of play on BSW hurting the game?

LexH — Tue, 26 May 2009 21:49:01 +0000

by LexH

hrdkor wrote:

My suggestion is if getting crushed playing Caylus is bugging you set the BSW settings to play only with players below a certain number of games played. Or just keep playing and learning until you get good enough to compete with the masters (of which I am not).

Getting crushed is fine. I will play another game tonight if I can.

But it got me wondering. It just feels online that Caylus is one of those 'people have moved on' games where only a few people play regularly and newbies get crushed.

Is this really good for the game, and can it be bridged? When I first played six months ago the competition was hard but not as brutal.

- Lex

Reply: Caylus:: General:: Re: Is the quality of play on BSW hurting the game?

hrdkor — Tue, 26 May 2009 21:43:18 +0000

by hrdkor

Well I guess I must respond since I am one of those BSW players with 500+ plays of Caylus. I started playing on BSW and became obsessed with learning and mastering Caylus. For the first 100 games I repeatedly got crushed then something clicked, and I started winning 2/3 and then 3/4 games I played. Once that happened I lost interest and moved on to the next deep game available... Imperial and now Agricola. Funny thing is I've run into a few of the players I used to play Caylus with, while playing both Imperial and Agricola online.

My suggestion is if getting crushed playing Caylus is bugging you set the BSW settings to play only with players below a certain number of games played. Or just keep playing and learning until you get good enough to compete with the masters (of which I am not).

Reply: Caylus:: General:: Re: Is the quality of play on BSW hurting the game?

dturnerfish — Tue, 26 May 2009 21:23:49 +0000

by dturnerfish

For me, online play is fine for relaxing semi-mindless games. More competitive games I prefer to play in person.

Reply: Caylus:: General:: Re: Is the quality of play on BSW hurting the game?

apotheos — Tue, 26 May 2009 21:14:21 +0000

by apotheos

I can't think of a case where casual play with friends and loved ones is not totally ruined by playing in the competitive environment of BSW.

I played 1 game of Dominion on there are realized it would ruin all my enjoyment of playing the game with others if I kept playing it.

Reply: Caylus:: General:: Re: Is the quality of play on BSW hurting the game?

LexH — Tue, 26 May 2009 20:57:13 +0000

by LexH

I would be more shocked if half the people who rated it had ever actually played it. To me this is very much a specific type of gamer's game.

- Lex

Reply: Caylus:: General:: Re: Is the quality of play on BSW hurting the game?

timstellmach — Tue, 26 May 2009 20:49:55 +0000

by timstellmach

I would be pretty shocked if a significant percentage of the people who have rated Caylus had ever played it online.

Reply: Caylus:: General:: Re: Is the quality of play on BSW hurting the game?

cferejohn — Tue, 26 May 2009 20:37:02 +0000

by cferejohn

People no longer play Gin Rummy "seriously" (i.e. for money) because Stewie Ungar played it as well as it could be played, and there was so little luck that the better player pretty consistently crushed the weaker one.

People no longer play 5-card stud (poker) for basically the same reason (but replace "Stewie Ungar" with "Johnny Moss").

Other forms of poker remain popular because they have so much luck that players who are long-term losers can easily have winning streaks long enough to convince themselves that they are winning players.

Nobody's playing Caylus for money (well, maybe a tournament here and there, but nothing like what is involved in poker), but the same basic psychology applies: if someone just gets absolutely smoked a bunch of times in a row, they are probably going to quit unless they are really driven to figure the game out (and when they do, they will become part of the proverbial "problem").

Reply: Caylus:: General:: Re: Is the quality of play on BSW hurting the game?

Tompy — Tue, 26 May 2009 20:04:54 +0000

by Tompy

See this list...

http://www.boardgamegeek.com/geeklist/9080

And thanks for backing up my hypothesis.

Thread: Caylus:: General:: Is the quality of play on BSW hurting the game?

LexH — Tue, 26 May 2009 20:01:37 +0000

by LexH

I can sometimes get my friends to play Caylus but most of my games lately have been online.

The more I play online the more I realize that the online learning curve is simply brutal. I have yet to win (no big deal) but more I notice that true newbies get crushed. I can usually stay within 10-20 VP's of the winner but the extra player is losing by 60.

Most of the opponents have 200+ plays, some over 600. I learn a great deal from playing them but I also have a sense of how subtle some of the plays are.

When I play with friends in person we have a good time. We all make mistakes and sometimes we win the game because of that. Online my opponents rarely make mistakes and I am usually hammered for any error whatsoever. I make less mistakes each time I play but I am patient.

But I am noticing that Caylus is slowly dropping in interest online. Less and less people play online (I have seen a huge drop over the last six months) and the BGG rating is dropping. There are fewer posts on the forums. I have no clue if this reflected in the gaming habits of players FtF but I do wonder.

This could be simply that the game is aging but I am wondering if part of the problem is there is no easy way to bridge the newbie-expert gap if you can't get your friends to play regularly.

Thoughts?

- Lex

Reply: Caylus:: General:: Re: play aids / cheat sheets

Your Buddy Chester — Mon, 18 May 2009 14:16:16 +0000

by Your Buddy Chester

Ian -

Caylus is right on the outside edge of complexity for us. We went to a gaming group, played the game [with lots of help from patient people who knew what they were doing] and had a great time. We then bought the game and.... had no idea what we were doing when we tried to play it on our own and it's been sitting on the shelf ever since. :(

I recollect coming here earlier looking for some cheat sheets / rule summaries, but the one I found wasn't much help. Recently I came back [hoping something new was here] and I couldn't find anything.

Thanks to William and Troy, we'll print out both and see which one helps, probably next month! Appreciate the help guys!

File: Caylus:: Buildings sheet in Graphics CZECH

Kedrigern — Thu, 14 May 2009 21:19:45 +0000

by Kedrigern

Buildings sheet in Graphics CZECH for Board Game: Caylus ]]>