Tigris & Euphrates | BoardGameGeek

New Image for Tigris & Euphrates

Gregg_B — Thu, 09 Jul 2009 20:42:30 +0000

by Gregg_B

Polish edition

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File: Tigris & Euphrates:: Screen Text in SPANISH for the Pegasus Edition

franchi — Sun, 05 Jul 2009 13:04:51 +0000

by franchi

Screen Text in SPANISH for the Pegasus Edition for Board Game: Tigris & Euphrates ]]>

New Image for Tigris & Euphrates

Hollender — Sat, 04 Jul 2009 19:34:45 +0000

by Hollender

Sveinmain is preparing an extern conflict, while Peter is concerned ab...

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New Image for Tigris & Euphrates

Ming — Fri, 03 Jul 2009 00:58:11 +0000

by Ming

2 Player Game

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File: Tigris & Euphrates:: The official rules in Hebrew

urison — Wed, 01 Jul 2009 19:27:20 +0000

by urison

The official rules in Hebrew for Board Game: Tigris & Euphrates ]]>

Reply: Tigris & Euphrates:: General:: Re: Missing components in my Mayfair copy

aaxiom — Tue, 30 Jun 2009 22:37:20 +0000

by aaxiom

Try sending AlexYeager a message through GeekMail. That might be of some help. HTH.

Reply: Tigris & Euphrates:: General:: Re: Missing components in my Mayfair copy

Big Bad Lex — Tue, 30 Jun 2009 21:46:36 +0000

by Big Bad Lex

Yes 4 missing treasure cubes here as well. I'll contact Mayfair for replacements.

Post Script: I've just tried to mail Mayfair at custserv@mayfairgames.com and the message bounced. I've checked out their web site and unless I'm losing it, there isn't a contact me facility or e-mail address listed.

Has anyone got another contact address?

Reply: Euphrat & Tigris - Die Zikkurat:: General:: Re: Can you get this outside of Spielbox?

pdclose — Sun, 28 Jun 2009 00:09:07 +0000

by pdclose

Yes it is.

Reply: Tigris & Euphrates:: General:: Re: Euphrates and Tigris: card game

LesterKlew — Sat, 27 Jun 2009 01:40:33 +0000

by LesterKlew

Next Thursday.

Reply: Tigris & Euphrates:: General:: Re: Euphrates and Tigris: card game

DKahnt — Sat, 27 Jun 2009 01:20:42 +0000

by DKahnt

elfrododumbo wrote:

David, thank you so much.

Any time.

-DK

Reply: Tigris & Euphrates:: General:: Re: Euphrates and Tigris: card game

elfrododumbo — Sat, 27 Jun 2009 01:16:39 +0000

by elfrododumbo

David, thank you so much.

Reply: Tigris & Euphrates:: General:: Re: Euphrates and Tigris: card game

DKahnt — Sat, 27 Jun 2009 01:07:43 +0000

by DKahnt

Check here: Euphrates & Tigris Card Game, there are a number of reviews down in the middle of the page.

-DK

Thread: Tigris & Euphrates:: General:: Euphrates and Tigris: card game

elfrododumbo — Sat, 27 Jun 2009 00:58:35 +0000

by elfrododumbo

I have not been able to find a review of the card game and I am wondering if those who know how to play T@E well might know of it. If so, what are their thoughts/criticism of it.
Personally, I would not be able to play T@E because I play solo or solo "2-player" games most of the time and the card game might just be the answer to my problem.
Would appreciate any comments re; the card game.

Thanks in advance.

Reply: Tigris & Euphrates:: Rules:: Re: Ziggurat

monkeyboy157 — Fri, 26 Jun 2009 22:19:44 +0000

by monkeyboy157

SnitraM wrote:
I have the new edition from Pegasus. The Ziggurat tiles,
cone and rules are not included.

I can easily emulate it with just tunring over the tiles
and putting some other thing in the place of the Ziggurat.

But I have a question regarding the rules. Is it one cube
of your choice if you have at least one leader in the
kingdom with the Ziggurat at the end of your turn, or is
it one cube of your choice for each leader you have in the
kingdom with the Ziggurat at the end of you turn?

--
aTdHvAaNnKcSe

MartinS

The Ziggurat gives the king, and the king only, in the kingdom the choice of any one cube at the end of their turn.

Thread: Euphrat & Tigris - Die Zikkurat:: General:: Can you get this outside of Spielbox?

Eeeville — Thu, 25 Jun 2009 14:23:23 +0000

by Eeeville

Basically just wondering if this expansion is the same as the 'Ziggurat tiles and Tower' expansion included with the Revised edition.

Thanks in advance!

Reply: Tigris & Euphrates:: Rules:: Re: Ziggurat

SnitraM — Wed, 24 Jun 2009 11:26:20 +0000

by SnitraM

I have the new edition from Pegasus. The Ziggurat tiles,
cone and rules are not included.

I can easily emulate it with just tunring over the tiles
and putting some other thing in the place of the Ziggurat.

But I have a question regarding the rules. Is it one cube
of your choice if you have at least one leader in the
kingdom with the Ziggurat at the end of your turn, or is
it one cube of your choice for each leader you have in the
kingdom with the Ziggurat at the end of you turn?

--
aTdHvAaNnKcSe

MartinS

Reply: Tigris & Euphrates:: Rules:: Re: Victory Point scored for Joining a Kingdom and Region?

grosmorne — Sat, 20 Jun 2009 21:37:30 +0000

by grosmorne

Yes, that's what I was intending. Thanks a bunch!

Reply: Tigris & Euphrates:: Rules:: Re: Original temple tile spaces playable?

boltongeordie — Sat, 20 Jun 2009 21:36:52 +0000

by boltongeordie

Yes.

Reply: Tigris & Euphrates:: Rules:: Re: Victory Point scored for Joining a Kingdom and Region?

boltongeordie — Sat, 20 Jun 2009 21:35:49 +0000

by boltongeordie

As long as we are clear on definitions the answer is yes.

Kingdom: A group of tiles and leaders connected orthogonally.
Region: A group of tiles connected orthogonally containing no leaders.

The joining tile does not score if you join two kingdoms, but does if you join a region to a kingdom.

Thread: Tigris & Euphrates:: Rules:: Original temple tile spaces playable?

grosmorne — Sat, 20 Jun 2009 21:31:53 +0000

by grosmorne

If the treasure on a temple tile has been removed, and that tile is subsequently removed through conflict, is the space playable?

Thanks

Thread: Tigris & Euphrates:: Rules:: Victory Point scored for Joining a Kingdom and Region?

grosmorne — Sat, 20 Jun 2009 21:29:59 +0000

by grosmorne

Does the tile placed to join a kingdom to a region score a victory point for the leader?

Thanks

Reply: Tigris & Euphrates:: Sessions:: house rules

photocurio — Fri, 19 Jun 2009 22:36:02 +0000

by photocurio

Amusing set of house rules. And from the apparent success of your first game, it seems like it was an effective teaching variant.

Reply: Tigris & Euphrates:: Sessions:: Re: Tigris with the Family

aaxiom — Fri, 19 Jun 2009 18:54:27 +0000

by aaxiom

murcielago wrote:

--Mother: very pro-game. Scrabble, boggle, Settlers, TTR, and she even plays two-player PR with me.

:thumbsup: :)

murcielago wrote:

--Father: used to be more of a gamer, but now mostly plays Rail Baron on the computer against AIs. We’re talking 2-3 games a night. Usually decides not to game with us.

:thumbsdown: :(

That is somewhat sad.

murcielago wrote:

"Have you asked your father to play?" I hadn’t, so I did. And, surprisingly, he agreed!

:thumbsup: :)

Congrats on getting everyone together for a most excellent game -- probably one of the best to have been created in the 1990s (some might say the 20th century).

I would do anything to be able to game with my parents, who alas, are no longer with us. Take my advice: Cherish these times for as long as possible. :)

Thanks for sharing a great session report and a nice introduction to a sometimes-confusing-for-newbies set of game mechanics.

Session: Tigris & Euphrates:: Sessions:: Tigris with the Family

murcielago — Fri, 19 Jun 2009 16:55:11 +0000

by murcielago

So I had a problem: my brand new copy of Tigris and Euphrates wanted to be played. At night it would call to me, like the plant in Little Shop of Horrors. Solo plays weren’t enough--it wanted real blood. Since most of my gaming crew wasn’t around, though, the game was going to be hard to satisfy. I finally decided to try to try to bring in my casual-gamer family, even though I knew that the mind-bending nature of the game ("So I’m not red?" "Highest low score--huh?" "Why can’t my black leader fight your green leader?") would probably throw all of them for a loop or two. It ended up working pretty well though, as you’ll see. But first, a quick profile of the family:

--Mother: very pro-game. Scrabble, boggle, Settlers, TTR, and she even plays two-player PR with me. She used to game quite a bit with Father--Backgammon when they were first married, then TTR a few years ago (until I bought them the Switzerland expansion, at which point they seem to have stopped playing). She doesn’t like to learn new games, but usually enjoys them once she starts (exception: Carcassonne)

--Father: used to be more of a gamer, but now mostly plays Rail Baron on the computer against AIs. We’re talking 2-3 games a night. Usually decides not to game with us.

--Sister: likes games when everybody’s playing. Tends to shut down when things are too complicated.

So after dinner one day, I ask mother and sister if they want to play Tigris with me. They are resistant, as expected. So I put all my tiles on the table:

"Now that I own this game, I will not stop wanting to play it with you. So let me make you an offer: We play a short 20-minute demonstration game, with simplified rules. If you enjoy it, we can play a more complex version in the future. If you don’t like it, we’ll put it away, bring out TTR, and I’ll never ask you to play Tigris again."

Mother’s still resistant, but when Sister caves she goes along with it. As I’m setting things up--and trying to figure out how to simplify the game for them--she asks, pointedly, "Have you asked your father to play?" I hadn’t, so I did. And, surprisingly, he agreed! The first all-family game in several months, and it was going to be a homebrewed Tigris variant that still didn’t exist. Fortunately, unforeseen circumstances cause a 20-minute delay. By the time everybody was ready, I know how we were going to play.

I have everyone pick a leader and then hand out the player screens, which hadn’t been folded yet. "Cool," says mother, and sister flips out: "These are the walls of Babylon!" Thanks to an art history class, she’s crazy into ancient art. "These are the lions that are on the walls of Babylon!" Thank goodness she didn’t have the pot screen, since I don’t think it’s as historically accurate.

"Pick one of the temples, and put your four leaders touching it." I’ve only put down the start temples that have four open spaces next to them, and there are no treasure cubes. Sister and Mother pick corners, Father picks a temple halfway between the two, and I take the third corner. "Everybody draw six tiles from the bag. Isn’t it a nice bag?" My mother, who as a scrabble player can appreciate a good tile bag, assents. "Alright, sister goes first. You get two actions per turn, like drawing cards in TTR. With each action, you play a tile next to your kingdom. Then, you draw a little cube from the bank for each color you put down. Keep it all hidden." After a few rounds of play, I introduce the scoring mechanism, making sure to describe it as collecting sets, per the suggestions of other BGG users. They all seem to get it. At this point, I also introduce special game-end conditions: "As soon as one player plays a tile that connects two kingdoms, we’ll fight a war, and then the game will end. So anybody can end the game whenever they feel like it." Mother seems happy with that.

After another couple of turns, I introduce the final rule: monuments. When Sister puts down the first monument, everybody oohs and aahs. By a few turns later, all six monuments are out. Sister and Mother have two each, and Father and I only have one each. I let play run for another turn, then instigate war between me and Father to end the game (since Sister’s getting a complete set at the end of each turn). Also, from a metagame perspective (or is it metametagame?), it makes sense for me to be the one to end the game. Leave them craving more...

So I slap down the connecting tile, slap the handshake tile on top of it, and run the war. The idea is that, by ending with warfare, they realize that they haven’t experienced the heart of Tigris--and that the heart of Tigris is pretty fun. Unfortunately, I hadn’t paid much attention to the tiles in Father’s kingdom, and he proceeds to clobber me in Black, Green, and Blue. If I had run the Blue conflict first I wouldn’t have lost the other leaders, but teaching them about multiple-stage wars had a higher priority than salvaging my position--especially since this was the last turn, right?

"Can Sister take another turn?" asks Mother. "Sure, but I thought we were calling the game after the first war," I say. "Do we want to give everyone another turn?" They all agree and I smile inside. So Sister declares war on Father, and loses two leaders. Mother declares war on Father with her first action and loses a leader, then declares war from a different direction and loses again. Father uses his two actions to mop up both Sister and Mother, and ends the game with 9 points to everybody else’s 4. On my last turn, I try to quick introduce the internal conflict mechanism by resurrecting my deceased green leader into a two-temple spot (Father wins the conflict, of course), but I could see Sister and Mother get a little confused.

Everybody had fun with monument-building and war, and they agreed to play again. "In a week or so," I say, playing it cool. Next time, I’ll introduce treasure, maybe disaster tiles, and try to do a little more work on internal conflicts once leaders start dying.

What I learned:
--The hardest thing to understand about Tigris is the fact that kingdoms don’t belong to you. If you remove that aspect of the game, it’s highly accessible.
--Simplified versions of Tigris can still be pretty fun, just like simplified versions of Chess (I always had a soft spot for Pawn Wars).
--Theme matters, especially for new players--and Tigris has plenty of theme

Reply: Tigris & Euphrates:: Strategy:: Re: Why, why, why can't I "get" this game?

Liggur — Thu, 18 Jun 2009 15:07:40 +0000

by Liggur

dcjackso wrote:

I don't understand the advice given in this thread about not regarding a kindgom as "mine." Isn't the game about maintaining control of kindgoms? I found the most solid strategy in the 2P game is simply to build as big a kingdom as I can, with evenly balanced tile placements, and as many monuments as possible, thus keeping my points in all colors relatively equal. Also, to go after as many treasure on "my side" of the board as I can. Such equal placement of tiles ensures that I will be ready for the external conflicts that only occur at the end of the game, PLUS I don't have to waste red tiles by instigating internal conlicts with my opponent. (Why waste 3 or 4 red tiles to win one red cube, when I can use those same tiles to earn 3 or 4 red cubes?).

You might "spend" 3 or 4 red tiles getting rid of an opposing leader, if that conflict is your first action, you can pop your own leader in his place and gain any benifits that your opponant was getting (like temple VP's at the end of the round)

Reply: Tigris & Euphrates:: General:: Re: Anyone interested in a quick T&E game (BGG)?

AstroLad — Thu, 18 Jun 2009 12:51:36 +0000

by AstroLad

Thanks for joining! Unfortunately I clearly have no idea how the kick mechanism works. I tried to kick elfrododumbo but it looks like he stayed in the game. Just to avoid further confusion, I'm creating a new game instead: http://www.boardgamegeek.com/tigris/game/join/52753

Reply: Tigris & Euphrates:: General:: Re: Anyone interested in a quick T&E game (BGG)?

aaxiom — Thu, 18 Jun 2009 06:07:16 +0000

by aaxiom

I'm in... away we go! :) Thanks for the invite Astro!

Reply: Tigris & Euphrates:: General:: Re: Anyone interested in a quick T&E game (BGG)?

AstroLad — Wed, 17 Jun 2009 22:39:30 +0000

by AstroLad

So we need one more to join as it looks like someone went MIA: http://www.boardgamegeek.com/tigris/game/joinslot/52709/Goat (goat, has not placed any pieces yet).

Thread: Euphrat & Tigris - Die Zikkurat:: General:: Geek auction

leaxe — Wed, 17 Jun 2009 15:18:42 +0000

by leaxe

I do not have the base game, so now you have the chance to have this.

Grab it for GeekGold...

here...

Reply: Tigris & Euphrates:: General:: Re: Anyone interested in a quick T&E game (BGG)?

elfrododumbo — Tue, 16 Jun 2009 21:50:35 +0000

by elfrododumbo

:surprise: Yep...too quick ! :laugh:

Reply: Tigris & Euphrates:: General:: Re: Anyone interested in a quick T&E game (BGG)?

AstroLad — Tue, 16 Jun 2009 21:32:55 +0000

by AstroLad

My word you guys are fast.

Thread: Tigris & Euphrates:: General:: Anyone interested in a quick T&E game (BGG)?

AstroLad — Tue, 16 Jun 2009 21:28:26 +0000

by AstroLad

http://www.boardgamegeek.com/tigris/game/join/52709

Playing through my first game and I'm already hopelessly addicted. I have a couple hours to kill so join away!

Reply: Tigris & Euphrates:: Reviews:: Re: T&E Review - My Opening Shot on BGG

aaxiom — Mon, 15 Jun 2009 19:30:26 +0000

by aaxiom

bigeeh wrote:
I just wish it would get in the rotation a little more often.

Just jump in and get your fix here. The game is wonderful in this format, and you'll get as much or as little as you need for your fix. There's some minor awkwardness getting familiar with the interface at first, but that fades very quickly. Enjoy!

http://boardgamegeek.com/tigris/list/tigris/open

Reply: Tigris & Euphrates:: Reviews:: Re: T&E Review - My Opening Shot on BGG

bigeeh — Mon, 15 Jun 2009 16:51:32 +0000

by bigeeh

wiseman207 wrote:
The Verdict

Tigris and Euphrates is a surprising underdog. It manages to blend the simple, charming appearance of a classic board game with satisfying strategic play and cutthroat tactics. The game feels like it has just the right amount of rules, and it expertly strikes a balance between strategy and luck. It's the sort of game that could find its way into a variety of gaming circles, and it feels rewarding to get "good" at. The impressive number of tactical options might overwhelm the most casual players, and the simple appearance and abstract nature of the game might turn off the grognardian wargamers, but between the two bookends is a wide range of players that I think should be able to reap all the rewards of this stimulating game.

Grade: A-

Excellent review! I love this game for the exact reasons you wrote above; in fact I could not have put it better myself! Sadly I do not get to play this game too often as the guys I play with are less interested in it. T&E tends to get bumped by games with more flash and bling… which I enjoy too; I just wish it would get in the rotation a little more often.

Reply: Tigris & Euphrates:: Rules:: Re: Monument/Advanced Building Situations (MABS)

wiseman207 — Mon, 15 Jun 2009 14:20:44 +0000

by wiseman207

dreadpirate wrote:
Sounds good, except for number 2.

From the rules translation here:"At this time the active player can build a civilisation building of the same color as the tiles. He simply places the appropriate building onto any one of the connected civilisation tiles of the appropriate row or column. This tile still counts during an external conflict; however after a lost conflict it is not removed from the board."

So the buildings prevent the tile they stand on from being removed.

Makes sense. A good rule of thumb then becomes "if a tile has wood on it, it can't be picked up", as tiles with monuments and treasures behave the same way.

Reply: Tigris & Euphrates:: Reviews:: Re: Tigris & Euphrates short review – why I won’t be buying this excellent game

Karlsen — Mon, 15 Jun 2009 09:57:07 +0000

by Karlsen

tonksey wrote:
Uncle G wrote:
The thing that I don't get about comebacks is that if you've fought an external conflict and lost, your kingdom is blasted apart, and you have no power base from which to start over. All the other leaders are well supported (usually), so how can you make a comeback?

A good tip: try to challenge one of those well-supported leaders via an internal conflict.

As a result, they can only have an internal strength of between 1 and 4 (same range as you). So an ideal situation would be that there is a spot where you are at least as internally strong as an opposing leader with plenty of red tiles in your hand... if it pays off, you then become "well-supported" with the same tiles (to use your terminolgy).

And this may possibly be supported with a strategically placed disaster tile :devil:

Reply: Tigris & Euphrates:: Rules:: Re: Monument/Advanced Building Situations (MABS)

Biarien — Mon, 15 Jun 2009 06:19:25 +0000

by Biarien

For #5, you can build a monument on two of those tiles later (with the addition of two new like-colored tiles). But of course you cannot build a monument on the original four tiles.

E.g., if 1234 below were played first and you elected not to build a monument, then a monument could never be built on top of 1234. But if you decided later to play 5 and 6, you could elect to build a monument on 2546.

:bd6-1::bd6-2::bd6-5:
:bd6-3::bd6-4::bd6-6:

Reply: Tigris & Euphrates:: Rules:: Re: Monument/Advanced Building Situations (MABS)

dreadpirate — Mon, 15 Jun 2009 03:27:14 +0000

by dreadpirate

Sounds good, except for number 2.

From the rules translation here:"At this time the active player can build a civilisation building of the same color as the tiles. He simply places the appropriate building onto any one of the connected civilisation tiles of the appropriate row or column. This tile still counts during an external conflict; however after a lost conflict it is not removed from the board."

So the buildings prevent the tile they stand on from being removed.

Thread: Tigris & Euphrates:: Rules:: Monument/Advanced Building Situations (MABS)

wiseman207 — Mon, 15 Jun 2009 03:07:47 +0000

by wiseman207

My friends and I started playing the advanced rules... actually our preferred method is to play with the advanced rules on the basic board, but some interesting situations arise with the addition of the four special buildings.

Note that in these questions "building" means the four advanced buildings, while "monument" means the monuments or the zigarraut.

What happens in the case of:

1) A building rests on a tile involved in an external conflict. Is the tile counted?

2) If the side with the building loses, is the tile (and building) removed?

3) Can a plague tile be deployed into a square containing a building?

4) Suppose a plague tile is deployed in such a way that the formation necessary to deploy a building (a 3-tile line) is destroyed, but the building was already played into a different square in the line. Is the building removed? We rule no here, but I'm curious.

4a) If the building is not removed in case 4, then the next time a 3-tile line is formed, we rule that this is the longest line and the building may be moved there. Is this correct?

4b) By extension, can a building's line be "shortened" by a plague tile? If it can, can the player who did so move the building to a longer line immediately, or when? The question here is whether the building "remembers" how long the line was when it was last moved (or the longest line ever), even if the line is destroyed.

5) When a formation of tiles would allow the building of a monument, but the player elects not to, can the monument ever be built at a later time? If so, when?

---

We did not consult the rule book in our last game to seek answers to the questions, and instead made ad hoc rulings. They were:

1) Yes.

2) Yes.

3) No,

4) No, as previously stated.

4a) Yes.

4b) This never came up, but I think the answer would be no. I would rule that as soon as a tile was played in such a way to make a longer line than the one it is currently on, even if it is not the longest line ever or even the longest line currently, it may be moved.

5) No.

How many did I get right? :P

Review: Tigris & Euphrates:: Reviews:: T&E Review - My Opening Shot on BGG

wiseman207 — Mon, 15 Jun 2009 00:50:54 +0000

by wiseman207

Howdy all, I've been browsing BGG for a while now, since I've been on a bit of a board game kick. I've been following the recommendations here for games that fit my style, and since the reviews here have been useful to me overall, I figured I'd join up and contribute a bit.

My first post will be about a game I'd heard nothing of before stumbling upon it on this site... Tigris and Euphrates (T&E). Certainly an off-the-wall subject for a game, and I must admit that its bizarre premise and unassuming box art led me into the game with muted expectations. I played a whole bunch of Settlers of Catan this summer, and by the shots and posts on BGG it looked like T&E would be something similar, so I just dove in. It seemed highly regarded enough, and I'll be darned if there wasn't a copy right on the hobby store shelf. So, let's get to it.

The Basics

Well, let's look in the box. The unassuming dull-blue-brick of a box and yellow Papyrus-y font had hardly won me over, but off comes the lid and we get to see what's inside. You get a two-sided five-fold board, a bunch of sheets of thick cardboard tiles, a rulebook and tons of wooden buildings and tokens. The board itself is of pretty standard fare, its that thin cardboard mount that most board games come on, kinda sturdy but it doesn't precisely lay flat most of the time... I'll have to break it in I guess. The cardboard tiles (of which there are hundreds) however are quite thick and very nice, with nice themed double-sided artwork. The wooden pieces are no more than a set of reasonably simple geometric shapes, painted a single color, used to both keep score and mark special locations on the map. A set of wooden disks come painted with symbols for each player, and some small screens printed on cardstock round out the set. The rulebook is a thin large-format magazine with staple binding. You get a few plastic bags to hold all the parts, and a thin tan cloth draw-string bag to keep the tiles in for the game. The tiles are subjected to the most abuse by far, being rattled and dropped and tossed about as the game progresses, but thankfully they are quite tough. I have no fears that this game will last, which is a good thing. Just be ready with a couple of zipper bags to keep things organized, it will quarter your setup time.

First Impressions

My first take on this game is that it was "a civilization-building game like Settlers of Catan", and to a certain respect I'm correct. The objects of the game are similar. Players score points by deploying the pieces they are allotted into the field, and these pieces represent buildings or tracts of land instead of warriors or armies. Thus one might assume that this game is one of less direct competition and more of accurate situational play.

However I assure you that this is not the case. Despite its humble appearance, T&E is an extremely competitive game. As the civilizations grow, players will be in direct competition for control of the tiles on the board, having to carefully place their officer tokens to score points and resolve conflicts. These officer tokens are the crux of the game, and they are frequently moved about and ejected from the board as players make cutthroat moves to secure tiles and point-producing special buildings for themselves. A stable board position can be completely disrupted by daring play, with the entire face of the game changing with a series of bold moves after a long period of building up. The real challenge of the game comes from choosing between a multitude of available plays at every turn. You can play any number of tiles from your hands to score points, start conflicts or construct buildings, you can use your special plague tiles to reshape kingdoms and cut off players, move your officers into better kingdoms (or steal one from an opponent) or throw away your hand if it doesn't suit you. The fact that you can do any combination of these actions, twice, on every turn and you'll find yourself stopping to ponder a great deal!

The game is heavily abstracted, much in the way checkers or chess is. The "kingdoms" are represented by chains of colored tiles, and the officers and buildings are simple wooden pieces. You'll often find yourself examining the board for strong positional plays before your disbelief is suspended enough to imagine yourself a Persian king. This game has an old-timey feel to it, the most rewarding play comes from seeing a strategy come to fruition before you become engrossed in any sort of lofty role-playing concept.

The rules were easy enough that we no longer had to consult the book after the second playthrough, and the game could be completed in about 1 hour. The time control method is the stock of playable tiles, which are quite numerous but become quickly exhausted as players make dramatic moves. This, combined with the large amount of hidden information (you can't see other players' tiles or score markers) gives the game a sortof Scrabbly feel.

Lasting Appeal

This game really shines after a few playthroughs. Once you've got a few games under your belt and you begin to understand how the various components work with each other, you can begin to form meaningful strategies. The rules aren't complicated so much as the overwhelming number of choices you have to make each turn, and the game certainly rewards precise, aggressive play. There is a small element of luck, in that the tiles you draw for your hand are random each turn, but the fact the game goes for many rounds and that you can use one of your actions to change out hands mitigates this element somewhat. Often it is a decisive move that shapes the entire game, but players are never out of the running. Because the scoring system forces you to keep a broad scope, focused strategies are often short-lived. The game is always close, and all it takes is a timely, lucky draw to turn the whole game on its head... but players who make strong tactical choices can recover from most anything.

This is a great game to spring on your regular gamer friends. After the first play you will feel overwhelmed, the second, intrigued, and the third addicted. We've been playing board games on weekends regularly now for a few months, and ever since I bought this game its been at the top of the order each week, and we usually play several rounds before moving on to card games.

This game is all-around fun, and I could recommend it to anyone who enjoys board games that reward sound tactics and daring play. The more casual crowd that cuts their teeth on Monopoly or Checkers might need a few goes to get all the rules down, but I guarantee you'll win a few over. It's probably just deep and obscure enough to scare off the perennial players, but the rest will certainly stick around for seconds. Its certainly got that all-ages classic family appeal about it, even if it isn't always kind to the newbies. You can tell when you're sitting next to someone who's better/worse than you at T&E, which is one of its strong suits. However, this might make it a bit tougher to squeeze into family game night than your regulars table. It's also worth noting that the game supports 2-4 players, and it plays well regardless of where in that range you fall.

The Verdict

Tigris and Euphrates is a surprising underdog. It manages to blend the simple, charming appearance of a classic board game with satisfying strategic play and cutthroat tactics. The game feels like it has just the right amount of rules, and it expertly strikes a balance between strategy and luck. It's the sort of game that could find its way into a variety of gaming circles, and it feels rewarding to get "good" at. The impressive number of tactical options might overwhelm the most casual players, and the simple appearance and abstract nature of the game might turn off the grognardian wargamers, but between the two bookends is a wide range of players that I think should be able to reap all the rewards of this stimulating game.

Grade: A-

Reply: Tigris & Euphrates:: Rules:: Re: Internal Conflict Twice in One Turn?

wiseman207 — Mon, 15 Jun 2009 00:48:44 +0000

by wiseman207

laureneve wrote:
Hi,
I am just learning Tigris and Euphrates and am currently in the middle of my second game. (I learned from experienced players but am now playing a 2 player game with a new player like myself!) We were just wondering if it is permitted to initiate internal conflict with the same leader twice in one turn? For example, I tried to move my leader to initiate internal conflict and lost, therefore removing my leader from the board and giving the other player a red victory point. However, since her leader was only adjacent to one temple and neither of us had any red temple tiles left, I was able to reposition my leader adjacent to 2 red temples and win the second time. Is this allowed or is only one internal conflict with the same leader allowed per turn? I couldn't seem to find anything in the rules that said I couldn't do this but I only skimmed quickly.

Thanks!

It's not against the rules, but my group considers it pretty much the most craven, underhanded tactic in the game.

Granted, the opportunity to do so does not come up very often, as players usually position their officers into the most "holy" squares at the first available opportunity. Plus, it usually involves a great red-tile expenditure and the wasting of both moves for the gain of a single red point, leaving the player open to subsequent challenges by players who are not similarly exhausted.

When we first started playing we used internal conflicts a lot, but after we got a few games in and wrapped our head around the game, we began to understand that they are really a risky tactic overall. This was quickly demonstrated when the player "burning" his red tiles in his kingdom suddenly linked into the hotly-contested zone, winning by a large margin and sweeping all his opponents' temples and tokens (which they had spent all their red tiles fighting for) off the board in one decisive blow.

Reply: Tigris & Euphrates:: Reviews:: Re: Tigris & Euphrates short review – why I won’t be buying this excellent game

Jambo — Sun, 14 Jun 2009 11:43:53 +0000

by Jambo

Uncle G wrote:
The thing that I don't get about comebacks is that if you've fought an external conflict and lost, your kingdom is blasted apart, and you have no power base from which to start over. All the other leaders are well supported (usually), so how can you make a comeback?

A well timed internal conflict followed by using your new-found kingdom to initiate an external can be very lucrative under the right circumstances. Monuments also allow swift changes in points.

Bear in mind that losing an external conflict may only impart points of one or two colours to the victor. The victor still needs to amass points in the other colours to be sure of winning overall. Denying people points in certain colours can outweigh one or two losses. However, losing your entire kingdom and all leaders can be hard to comeback from, but then those sort of catastrophes should be rare or getting rarer with more plays.

Reply: Tigris & Euphrates:: Reviews:: Re: Tigris & Euphrates short review – why I won’t be buying this excellent game

tonksey — Sun, 14 Jun 2009 10:36:53 +0000

by tonksey

A good tip: try to challenge one of those well-supported leaders via an internal conflict.

As a result, they can only have an internal strength of between 1 and 4 (same range as you). So an ideal situation would be that there is a spot where you are at least as internally strong as an opposing leader with plenty of red tiles in your hand... if it pays off, you then become "well-supported" with the same tiles (to use your terminolgy).

The only problem after that is the player whose leader you kicked off will be looking for retaliation to reclaim what you took, if possible!

New Image for Tigris & Euphrates

Goodsound — Sun, 14 Jun 2009 08:41:57 +0000

by Goodsound

Back of "Die Zikkurat" mini expansion of German games magazine "Spielb...

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Reply: Tigris & Euphrates:: Reviews:: Re: Tigris & Euphrates short review – why I won’t be buying this excellent game

Uncle G — Sun, 14 Jun 2009 05:59:33 +0000

by Uncle G

The thing that I don't get about comebacks is that if you've fought an external conflict and lost, your kingdom is blasted apart, and you have no power base from which to start over. All the other leaders are well supported (usually), so how can you make a comeback?

Reply: Tigris & Euphrates:: General:: Re: Special Abilities

andrewravesax — Sat, 13 Jun 2009 20:12:35 +0000

by andrewravesax

one of the reasons i like the 2-player game on the Nile board is that the blue tiles assume far greater importance, as control of the centre can be a great advantage.

come to that you can play 3 or 4-player on the Nile, but only on BGG, unless someone can tell me where to buy a board

Reply: Tigris & Euphrates:: Reviews:: Re: Tigris & Euphrates short review – why I won’t be buying this excellent game

andrewravesax — Sat, 13 Jun 2009 20:09:10 +0000

by andrewravesax

yes, i bet jamie has done plenty of comebacks, and i can attest that others have done plenty on me. just now i was coasting along at about 10-6 or so ina 2-player game, and managed to lose about 13-19. jamie has played about 1000 on-line, i realised with horror that i have completed over 50 in the last 3 weeks. unfortunately it is totally addictive.

but although it is like chess in that one needs to think 3 or 4 moves ahead (i never do), there is that element of luck that can enable a weaker player to win occasionally. that is part of the charm.

Reply: Tigris & Euphrates:: General:: Re: Where to play it solo online?

solove — Sat, 13 Jun 2009 16:14:08 +0000

by solove

I'd be happy to play in a game of 2 or 3 other complete noobs. It's rare that I can get involved in a older game that hasn't already been played to death and have the experienced players telling me what moves I should make.

If there are any new players who want to play in a game where optimal moves and huge mistakes don't matter as much as the learning expeience then PM me.

Reply: Euphrat & Tigris - Die Zikkurat:: Rules:: Re: English Translation for this Expansion

BaSL — Fri, 12 Jun 2009 06:30:39 +0000

by BaSL

http://www.boardgamegeek.com/image/496714?commentid=1121349#...

Thread: Euphrat & Tigris - Die Zikkurat:: Rules:: English Translation for this Expansion

ssheasby — Fri, 12 Jun 2009 02:19:54 +0000

by ssheasby

Hello Everyone,

I will be receiving this expansion from a friend who doesn't have T&E. It looks great.

Does anyone have the complete English translation for this expansion? Is there a translation of this expansion in English via Spielbox's website? I couldn't find it at all on their website (though the website is hard to navigate).

Thanks.

P.S. It's nice to have the first post in a new game entry!

Reply: Tigris & Euphrates:: News:: Re: new monument in spielbox no. 3/2009

lorna — Thu, 11 Jun 2009 14:28:19 +0000

by lorna

see here for the nice translation http://bgg.cc/image/496714

Reply: Tigris & Euphrates:: News:: Re: new monument in spielbox no. 3/2009

Big Bad Lex — Thu, 11 Jun 2009 11:24:18 +0000

by Big Bad Lex

Just to echo the call for some kind person to upload a translation.

Please.

Reply: Tigris & Euphrates:: News:: Re: new monument in spielbox no. 3/2009

Jambo — Thu, 11 Jun 2009 11:15:04 +0000

by Jambo

dshortdesign wrote:
Is it possible that this is already included in the new Mayfair reprint of T&E? Can anyone verify this?

Yes it is.

Reply: Tigris & Euphrates:: News:: Re: new monument in spielbox no. 3/2009

brauerle — Thu, 11 Jun 2009 11:03:46 +0000

by brauerle

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New Image for Tigris & Euphrates

brauerle — Thu, 11 Jun 2009 11:00:09 +0000

by brauerle

"Die Zikkurat" mini expansion of German games magazine "Spielbox" 03/2...

]]>

Reply: Tigris & Euphrates:: Reviews:: Re: Tigris & Euphrates short review – why I won’t be buying this excellent game

gesa — Wed, 10 Jun 2009 20:49:36 +0000

by gesa

Robrob wrote:
To increase your experience level, try playing T&E here online at the BGG. You can easily run four or five games at a time and learn as you go.

This is the only way I get to play it. It took me a long time to come around to really appreciating T&E. Now it is one of my favorites. But I think I would rather play it on BGG than FtF.

Reply: Tigris & Euphrates:: General:: Re: Where to play it solo online?

monkeyboy157 — Wed, 10 Jun 2009 20:04:36 +0000

by monkeyboy157

I'd love to get a 3 or 4 player game going with some people willing to give me some tips. Maybe tell me why a move I make is dumb, or why a series of moves they just made was a good idea, etc. I am just learning, but I'm also playing with all new people. It would be nice to see how others, especially those who have played a lot, play so I can learn more about the strategies. If anybody is willing to do this let me know. I may go join some games as well and see what happens.

Reply: Tigris & Euphrates:: News:: Re: new monument in spielbox no. 3/2009

lorna — Wed, 10 Jun 2009 15:27:51 +0000

by lorna

the card from spielbox has 4 temple tiles and the back has an illustration looking like it goes in the middle of a cross shaped city

Reply: Tigris & Euphrates:: News:: Re: new monument in spielbox no. 3/2009

dshortdesign — Wed, 10 Jun 2009 15:22:25 +0000

by dshortdesign

Is it possible that this is already included in the new Mayfair reprint of T&E? Can anyone verify this?

New Image for Euphrat & Tigris - Die Zikkurat

Naturelich — Wed, 10 Jun 2009 15:14:28 +0000

by Naturelich

Euphrat & Tigris: Die Zikkurat - Back

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New Image for Euphrat & Tigris - Die Zikkurat

Naturelich — Wed, 10 Jun 2009 15:12:18 +0000

by Naturelich

Euphrat & Tigris: Die Zikkurat - Front

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Reply: Tigris & Euphrates:: Reviews:: Re: Tigris & Euphrates short review – why I won’t be buying this excellent game

Karlsen — Wed, 10 Jun 2009 06:01:43 +0000

by Karlsen

Jambo wrote:
Good review and good discussion.

...is many people will allude to playing hundreds of games online here and still claim to be learning new things! If you've only played a couple of games, I'd really urge you and your gaming group not to throw in the towel just yet. T&E is one of those games where all of a sudden the mechanisms and strategies just click. For some it may be 2 games, for others hundreds. When it does, you'll see it in a completely new light, and I swear it'll blow your socks off.

Raises hand in agreement.

I'm a few hundred games in and I think I noticed Jamie using a new-to-me strategy in the last couple of games we were both in.

The internal, external conflict does not click naturally for lots of people, but once it does it is an amazing game. The politics analogy is a good one.

Reply: Tigris & Euphrates:: Reviews:: Re: Tigris & Euphrates short review – why I won’t be buying this excellent game

Robrob — Wed, 10 Jun 2009 04:33:10 +0000

by Robrob

To increase your experience level, try playing T&E here online at the BGG. You can easily run four or five games at a time and learn as you go.

Reply: Tigris & Euphrates:: News:: Re: new monument in spielbox no. 3/2009

lorna — Wed, 10 Jun 2009 02:54:51 +0000

by lorna

Looks like this could be that variant. Any English translation yet?

Reply: Tigris & Euphrates:: Reviews:: Re: Tigris & Euphrates short review – why I won’t be buying this excellent game

Heyswyndon — Tue, 09 Jun 2009 21:33:56 +0000

by Heyswyndon

Hi.

Great review, and in my opionion your comments and the polite responses are what make BGG such a great community.

I have played, own, and like T&E but rate it 8, below many other titles. It has a few confusing items, like the difference between internal/external conflict and the scoring methods (sets of 4 different colors...). Overall, I heartily encourage you to play it againk, but stand fast on your decision to purchase it.

I have not been able to get this to the game table often because of similar dynamics as your game group. I have also discovered that the whole game enjoyment is dependant on people at similar levels. If 1 or 2 players are at vastly different play levels for this game, it can become a cakewalk for the experienced player and a struggle for others. For that reason, I encourage you to be selective with who you play!

Good luck!

Reply: Tigris & Euphrates:: Reviews:: Re: Tigris & Euphrates short review – why I won’t be buying this excellent game

elfrododumbo — Tue, 09 Jun 2009 21:33:22 +0000

by elfrododumbo

Excellent review and the why "yes" and why "no" for buying this game.
I wish I had this when I first purchased the game. I knew no one who had played it before so it meant having to go through all the convoluted essential learning curve. Not easy trying to pretend that you are playing against a number of players when you are alone...you will, invariably, end up with a headache.
However, having said all this: it is a great game if you can make sure you have someone who owns the game and actually plays it and not one who has played it once in a blue moon and has to refer to the rules to recall what they mean.
Ask your friends if they play it often and then ask them if you can partake in a game with them if they are patient enough to guide you. Once you are satisfied that you can pass the information to others who have never played the game before: buy it, if not: do not buy it !
Just wish more reviewers add the cons in as much detail as you have.

Reply: Tigris & Euphrates:: Reviews:: Re: Tigris & Euphrates short review – why I won’t be buying this excellent game

Jambo — Tue, 09 Jun 2009 20:45:00 +0000

by Jambo

Good review and good discussion.

One thing I didn't get from this, is just how many times the OP has played T&E? The reason I'm asking is many people will allude to playing hundreds of games online here and still claim to be learning new things! If you've only played a couple of games, I'd really urge you and your gaming group not to throw in the towel just yet. T&E is one of those games where all of a sudden the mechanisms and strategies just click. For some it may be 2 games, for others hundreds. When it does, you'll see it in a completely new light, and I swear it'll blow your socks off.

I've now played nearly a 1000 games, mostly online, and I'm still well and truly awestruck by how amazing this game is. And that's just the base game!

The only one thing I'd disagree with in the review is the point about comebacks. They are very possible in T&E - I myself have done plenty - but I don't want to spoil the details as it's much more fun learning them for yourself.

Reply: Tigris & Euphrates:: Reviews:: Re: Tigris & Euphrates short review – why I won’t be buying this excellent game

Uncle G — Tue, 09 Jun 2009 19:10:15 +0000

by Uncle G

dshortdesign wrote:
Great review. I understand where you are coming from. This game is indeed very deep and it is one of the most difficult games to learn IMO.

However, I love this game and I believe that the main fault here falls squarely on whoever was teaching you. They appear to have insufficiently taught you the keys to this game. This game involves some strange thinking and mental gymnastics. If a newbie was taught inadequately, they would be grossly handicapped and would most likely leave with the same impression that you were left with.

Please give this game a try again. Perhaps seek a different person to teach you, or plead for the original teacher to re-explain and maybe give examples.

It is fantastic game, Reiner's masterpiece, and I hope you get to enjoy it.

Thanks for the encouragement. Writing the review has helped me organise my thoughts, and I'm already much happier to give T&E another go than I was. Before I try and play again I'm going to try to prepare a conflict player aid to help me remember what tiles you need and what the rewards are. That was my weakness, and if I have those concepts written down it may help.

Reply: Tigris & Euphrates:: Reviews:: Re: Tigris & Euphrates short review – why I won’t be buying this excellent game

Uncle G — Tue, 09 Jun 2009 19:05:24 +0000

by Uncle G

Bolger wrote:
Now, I haven't played any of these games, but my feeling was that T&E is the heaviest by far of these games. It seems that the BGG community agrees here as well, giving El Grande and Amun-Re a weight rating of 3.1 but T&E a rating of 3.6. A significant difference I would say. So I am wondering how apt the comparison is really? Does it really take a similiar effort to play these three games well? Is it perhaps the threshold of learning the game that is much larger for T&E? I am asking since I am very interested in getting Amun-Re, but have decided to avoid T&E very much for the reasons the OP pointed out.

In terms of my admittedly limited experience of all three games, I would say El Grande was the most accessible of the three. The only thing I found difficult with Amun-re was the heiroglyphics on the Power Cards, but a simple player aid would fix that. T&E is the only one where I found myself completely adrift in terms of comprehension, so I think it warrants the higher game weight.

My only reason for not getting Amun-Re is that players need the ability to scan the whole board at once, and work out how many powerc cards/farmers/blocks they want/need, and how this would be affected by up to five regions which are available. This is something my Dad wouldn't be able to do - he has lost his peripheral vision on one side, so he needs to focus on each area in turn.

Your decision will obviously depend on your own circumstances, but I would encourage you to buy Amun-Re if you are interested in it, and not to be put off by comparisons with T&E.

Reply: Tigris & Euphrates:: Reviews:: Re: Tigris & Euphrates short review – why I won’t be buying this excellent game

Uncle G — Tue, 09 Jun 2009 18:58:22 +0000

by Uncle G

TiGrr wrote:
Uncle G wrote:
I find the internal and external conflicts extremely difficult to incorporate into my play.

Internal conflict is like a (purely) political struggle within a nation: it determines control, but doesn't damage infrastructure.

External conflict is like war between nations: towns will be burned, fields salted, etc.

The victory cube payoff for winning an internal conflict is chump change (1 red). So, why would you want control of a sphere within a nation? While one can earn a cube or two per turn by expanding the nation, usually the big point payoff is in taking the nation to war (and winning, of course).

I've been thinking about this on my way home from work, and the way you have phrased this does help me - thank you. I like the phrase 'chump change' especially. Really helps it stick in the mind.

Reply: Tigris & Euphrates:: Reviews:: Re: Tigris & Euphrates short review – why I won’t be buying this excellent game

Smurf01 — Tue, 09 Jun 2009 18:43:50 +0000

by Smurf01

waddball wrote:
Smurf01 wrote:
And of course there is always the possibility to play the game online at BGG

Yes, and it's fun that way, but a potential problem is that if you play online, you'll improve but your game group will not. So it's even less likely to hit the (physical) table. Great if it's primarily about the game, less so if it's primarily about the game group.

On the other hand there is the possibility to let everybody know that there is an online option as well... and who knows; maybe everybody in the game group will benefit from the online training, e.g. learning the basic rules, that is; playing tactics are a totally different cookie of course. If a (so called) "newbie" decides to play against me and has questions about the how to's and whats concerning the rules I have absolutely no problem explaining them; even I still learn moves and tactics from someone who has a fresh eye for the game ;)

Reply: Tigris & Euphrates:: Reviews:: Re: Tigris & Euphrates short review – why I won’t be buying this excellent game

dshortdesign — Tue, 09 Jun 2009 18:10:29 +0000

by dshortdesign

Great review. I understand where you are coming from. This game is indeed very deep and it is one of the most difficult games to learn IMO.

However, I love this game and I believe that the main fault here falls squarely on whoever was teaching you. They appear to have insufficiently taught you the keys to this game. This game involves some strange thinking and mental gymnastics. If a newbie was taught inadequately, they would be grossly handicapped and would most likely leave with the same impression that you were left with.

Please give this game a try again. Perhaps seek a different person to teach you, or plead for the original teacher to re-explain and maybe give examples.

It is fantastic game, Reiner's masterpiece, and I hope you get to enjoy it.

Reply: Tigris & Euphrates:: Reviews:: Re: Tigris & Euphrates short review – why I won’t be buying this excellent game

Bolger — Tue, 09 Jun 2009 18:00:48 +0000

by Bolger

waddball wrote:
Bolger wrote:
Does it really take a similiar effort to play these three games well? Is it perhaps the threshold of learning the game that is much larger for T&E?

Depends on what you mean by learning. I think they're all similarly easy to play, as in move pieces around and comply with the rules (OK, El Grande is clearly the easiest of the three on this point), but to actually grok the strategy of the game, and play meaningfully is a different thing. Most people will struggle with T&E (I've played it for years, and still struggle), and kind of thrash around just trying stuff, because it isn't clear at first how to get from point A to point B. I don't think the conflicts are really hard to understand at all; it's the implications of them, planning ahead for them, visualizing the downstream effects, etc., that's difficult.

Also (and related), the decision tree in T&E is very broad. You have a huge grid, you can play basically anywhere on it, and there isn't a lot of structure forcing you to play down a particular path. Not so with the other two. Which isn't to say they're shallow, but the designers restricted the space. Hence, they're more accessible: here are 3 reasonable options, pick one; in T&E, it's much larger, esp. at first, when it's hard to weed out several dozen crappy options at a glance.

That's a very good answer and answers all of my questions. T&E is simply not for me, but Amun-Re probably can be. Amun-Re remains on my wishlist.

Reply: Tigris & Euphrates:: Reviews:: Re: Tigris & Euphrates short review – why I won’t be buying this excellent game

waddball — Tue, 09 Jun 2009 17:54:38 +0000

by waddball

Bolger wrote:
Does it really take a similiar effort to play these three games well? Is it perhaps the threshold of learning the game that is much larger for T&E?

Depends on what you mean by learning. I think they're all similarly easy to play, as in move pieces around and comply with the rules (OK, El Grande is clearly the easiest of the three on this point), but to actually grok the strategy of the game, and play meaningfully is a different thing. Most people will struggle with T&E (I've played it for years, and still struggle), and kind of thrash around just trying stuff, because it isn't clear at first how to get from point A to point B. I don't think the conflicts are really hard to understand at all; it's the implications of them, planning ahead for them, visualizing the downstream effects, etc., that's difficult.

Also (and related), the decision tree in T&E is very broad. You have a huge grid, you can play basically anywhere on it, and there isn't a lot of structure forcing you to play down a particular path. Not so with the other two. Which isn't to say they're shallow, but the designers restricted the space. Hence, they're more accessible: here are 3 reasonable options, pick one; in T&E, it's much larger, esp. at first, when it's hard to weed out several dozen crappy options at a glance.

Reply: Tigris & Euphrates:: Reviews:: Re: Tigris & Euphrates short review – why I won’t be buying this excellent game

waddball — Tue, 09 Jun 2009 17:27:50 +0000

by waddball

Smurf01 wrote:
And of course there is always the possibility to play the game online at BGG

Yes, and it's fun that way, but a potential problem is that if you play online, you'll improve but your game group will not. So it's even less likely to hit the (physical) table. Great if it's primarily about the game, less so if it's primarily about the game group.

Reply: Tigris & Euphrates:: Reviews:: Re: Tigris & Euphrates short review – why I won’t be buying this excellent game

Bolger — Tue, 09 Jun 2009 17:25:11 +0000

by Bolger

Uncle G wrote:
dcorban wrote:
You give Amun-Re a 9 after 1 play. Amun-Re epitomizes the idea of "you must play this game a lot to do well". El Grande is similar in this way (you rated it a 10). Interesting that you fault E&T for this trait.

Good points, and I'll tackle them one by one.

Amun-Re I really liked after only 1 play, but the main reason for this positive reaction was that I understood the rules straight away, and could figure out how to incorporate them in my play within about 3 turns of my first game. There is a lot of depth in Amun-re, but I found it much more accessible than T&E.

However, I have also decided not to buy Amun-Re, for more or less the same reasons. It has too many rules for my family game groups, and my Dad would not be able to scan the playing area and weigh up the blocks/cards/farmers available. A great shame, because I really like the game.

El Grande is a current favourite of ours, but is one which my Dad actually owns. The rules are fairly straight forward, and my Dad can manage the board by focusing on each area in turn - scanning the board isn't required in the same way as for T&E or Amun-re.

I think I might have warmed more to T&E if I had a better understanding of the conflicts. However I have to say that I still wouldn't be buying a copy due to the incompatibility with my game groups.

The more I learn about games, the more I come to realise that while there are good and bad games, not all the good games will be the right games for each group. My review was an effort to explain why this excellent game isn't right for me (at the moment).

Now, I haven't played any of these games, but my feeling was that T&E is the heaviest by far of these games. It seems that the BGG community agrees here as well, giving El Grande and Amun-Re a weight rating of 3.1 but T&E a rating of 3.6. A significant difference I would say. So I am wondering how apt the comparison is really? Does it really take a similiar effort to play these three games well? Is it perhaps the threshold of learning the game that is much larger for T&E? I am asking since I am very interested in getting Amun-Re, but have decided to avoid T&E very much for the reasons the OP pointed out.

Great review by the way, very informative and well written!

Reply: Tigris & Euphrates:: Reviews:: Re: Tigris & Euphrates short review – why I won’t be buying this excellent game

Smurf01 — Tue, 09 Jun 2009 16:23:55 +0000

by Smurf01

And of course there is always the possibility to play the game online at BGG - being notified by mail when it is your turn to make your moves - so you're not strictly limited to playing at game groups or owning the game to play T&E ;)

Nice review, by the way.

Grtz, John

Reply: Tigris & Euphrates:: Reviews:: Re: Tigris & Euphrates short review – why I won’t be buying this excellent game

TiGrr — Tue, 09 Jun 2009 16:08:20 +0000

by TiGrr

Uncle G wrote:
I find the internal and external conflicts extremely difficult to incorporate into my play.

A pair similes springs to mind that might help with the differences:

Internal conflict is like a (purely) political struggle within a nation: it determines control, but doesn't damage infrastructure.

External conflict is like war between nations: towns will be burned, fields salted, etc.

The victory cube payoff for winning an internal conflict is chump change (1 red). So, why would you want control of a sphere within a nation? While one can earn a cube or two per turn by expanding the nation, usually the big point payoff is in taking the nation to war (and winning, of course).

You probably already knew that, but if you didn't, I hope it helps next time you find yourself playing T&E.

btw, I understand restricting purchases to games that you can actually get to the table!

Reply: Tigris & Euphrates:: Reviews:: Re: Tigris & Euphrates short review – why I won’t be buying this excellent game

alexd — Tue, 09 Jun 2009 16:01:51 +0000

by alexd

It's less confusing to see what you need to do on conflicts in a 2p game -- 4p is known to be pretty daunting for new players.

Admittedly, some people don't like the lower conflict 2p game.

Reply: Tigris & Euphrates:: Reviews:: Re: Tigris & Euphrates short review – why I won’t be buying this excellent game

aaxiom — Tue, 09 Jun 2009 15:50:52 +0000

by aaxiom

Your review is spot-on and I appreciate your comments on one of my favorite games. While I strongly disagree with you about the difficulty, I must say that the only thing that matters -- and a point that struck me the most -- is that you can game with your Dad. :)

Value these days, and if T&E doesn't fit but other games do, then so be it. You're the only arbiter in these cases.

Personally, I'd give anything to be able to game with my Dad, but sadly this will never happen. I'm sincerely happy for you.

Thanks for a nice review.

Reply: Tigris & Euphrates:: Reviews:: Re: Tigris & Euphrates short review – why I won’t be buying this excellent game

YellowLab — Tue, 09 Jun 2009 15:29:51 +0000

by YellowLab

Uncle G wrote:
The more I learn about games, the more I come to realise that while there are good and bad games, not all the good games will be the right games for each group. My review was an effort to explain why this excellent game isn't right for me (at the moment).

Very well put. I have recently come to this realization myself, a subset of games (the right games) that fall within the good games that will actually be played with my gaming groups.

Great review.

Bob

Reply: Tigris & Euphrates:: Reviews:: Re: Tigris & Euphrates short review – why I won’t be buying this excellent game

Umbratus — Tue, 09 Jun 2009 15:26:38 +0000

by Umbratus

Sure, I understand that. I have come to the same realization that there are great games out there that just dont suit my playing group. Its not a flaw of the game but a flaw of my group that we cannot play certain games, I better put it that way :)

Reply: Tigris & Euphrates:: Reviews:: Re: Tigris & Euphrates short review – why I won’t be buying this excellent game

Uncle G — Tue, 09 Jun 2009 15:21:32 +0000

by Uncle G

Umbratus wrote:
dcorban wrote:
You give Amun-Re a 9 after 1 play. Amun-Re epitomizes the idea of "you must play this game a lot to do well". El Grande is similar in this way (you rated it a 10). Interesting that you fault E&T for this trait.

Good catch.

I think the review does a good job of pointing out some flaws that may be important to certain folks and groups of an otherwise great game. Thats rather inconsistent with these other personal ratings though, agree on that.

Edit: In addition to the ratings already mentioned: Tigris & Euphrates is a 6 at the same time.

The nature of this review is that it can't be anything other than a deeply personal opinion - much more so than any of my other reviews. I'm not even sure that I am pointing out flaws with the game. I feel I'm pointing out aspects of the game which mean it won't work for me.

I think T&E is a very good game. (The low rating reflects my frustration with internal/external conflicts and will probably go up should I ever get to grips with them). I think there are other very good games which will work with my playing groups, but this doesn't mean T&E is a bad game.

Reply: Tigris & Euphrates:: Reviews:: Re: Tigris & Euphrates short review – why I won’t be buying this excellent game

Uncle G — Tue, 09 Jun 2009 15:15:17 +0000

by Uncle G

dcorban wrote:
You give Amun-Re a 9 after 1 play. Amun-Re epitomizes the idea of "you must play this game a lot to do well". El Grande is similar in this way (you rated it a 10). Interesting that you fault E&T for this trait.

Good points, and I'll tackle them one by one.

Amun-Re I really liked after only 1 play, but the main reason for this positive reaction was that I understood the rules straight away, and could figure out how to incorporate them in my play within about 3 turns of my first game. There is a lot of depth in Amun-re, but I found it much more accessible than T&E.

However, I have also decided not to buy Amun-Re, for more or less the same reasons. It has too many rules for my family game groups, and my Dad would not be able to scan the playing area and weigh up the blocks/cards/farmers available. A great shame, because I really like the game.

El Grande is a current favourite of ours, but is one which my Dad actually owns. The rules are fairly straight forward, and my Dad can manage the board by focusing on each area in turn - scanning the board isn't required in the same way as for T&E or Amun-re.

I think I might have warmed more to T&E if I had a better understanding of the conflicts. However I have to say that I still wouldn't be buying a copy due to the incompatibility with my game groups.

The more I learn about games, the more I come to realise that while there are good and bad games, not all the good games will be the right games for each group. My review was an effort to explain why this excellent game isn't right for me (at the moment).

Reply: Tigris & Euphrates:: Reviews:: Re: Tigris & Euphrates short review – why I won’t be buying this excellent game

Umbratus — Tue, 09 Jun 2009 15:12:59 +0000

by Umbratus

Good catch.

I think the review does a good job of pointing out some flaws that may be important to certain folks and groups of an otherwise great game. Thats rather inconsistent with these other personal ratings though, agree on that.

Edit: In addition to the ratings already mentioned: Tigris & Euphrates is a 6 at the same time.

Reply: Tigris & Euphrates:: Reviews:: Re: Tigris & Euphrates short review – why I won’t be buying this excellent game

rules_heretic — Tue, 09 Jun 2009 15:12:52 +0000

by rules_heretic

T&E is about understanding Internal and External conflicts. Once you really understand this you have a framework with which to plan.

Have someone take some time and go through them with you.

Reply: Tigris & Euphrates:: Reviews:: Re: Tigris & Euphrates short review – why I won’t be buying this excellent game

dcorban — Tue, 09 Jun 2009 15:04:00 +0000

by dcorban

You give Amun-Re a 9 after 1 play. Amun-Re epitomizes the idea of "you must play this game a lot to do well". El Grande is similar in this way (you rated it a 10). Interesting that you fault E&T for this trait.

Reply: Tigris & Euphrates:: Reviews:: Re: Tigris & Euphrates short review – why I won’t be buying this excellent game

Umbratus — Tue, 09 Jun 2009 14:46:10 +0000

by Umbratus

Good review.

I guess I'll not buy this either for the reasons you greatly pointed out. I was concerned about the same things and now see myself confirmed.

It really looks interesting, so its a shame, but I figure it just wont pay off for me to spend money on this. Rather catching dust instead of hitting the table that much.

Reply: Tigris & Euphrates:: Reviews:: Re: Tigris & Euphrates short review – why I won’t be buying this excellent game

tonksey — Tue, 09 Jun 2009 14:30:14 +0000

by tonksey

Hi again,

Very good review of one of my favourite games; it definitely hit the points about being a difficult game to play well without devoting a lot of time to it & incorporating the differences of internal/external conflicts into your strategy.

Shame you don't feel you can buy it based on your groups because it really is superb, but very understandable given your reasons.

Keep up the reviews - I really like your style & way of presenting them :)

Matt...

Review: Tigris & Euphrates:: Reviews:: Tigris & Euphrates short review – why I won’t be buying this excellent game

Uncle G — Tue, 09 Jun 2009 14:18:48 +0000

by Uncle G

Tigris & Euphrates

Short review

This review will be a departure in format from my usual reviews. Normally I use pictures and go into detail about the rules, components and gameplay, and analyse the strengths and weaknesses of a game, but this has already been done for Tigris & Euphrates.

I have been fascinated by Tigris & Euphrates for a long time. When I first discovered BGG just over 2 years ago, this was one of the first games which really grabbed my attention. I have read the rules, as well as numerous session reports and reviews. However I could never bring myself to buy the game because I was concerned that I would never be able to get people to play it with me.

Recently I have started attending a board game club and recently played my first ever games of Tigris & Euphrates, and I thought that a short review of how I got on and my resulting opinions might help other people decide whether this is a game they might want to buy.

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Game Sessions

To help you put my opinions into context, I’ll quickly run through the two plays I’ve had of this game to date. They were both 4 player games, with 1 player (the game owner) who knew the game well, another who had played before but a long time ago, and myself and another player who had never played before.

In the first game I was fortunate to pick loads of red tiles, while I knew to be important, but I never really had a clear idea about what to do with them. I picked up different cube colours evenly and finished in second place with quite a good score of 8. The experienced game owner won with 10, with the others scoring 5 and 4.

I was quite pleased with this result, but at the same time frustrated as I could not get my head around which tiles I needed for an internal conflict against the tiles for an external conflict. I should make clear that I do ‘know’ how the conflicts work as dry facts, but not sufficiently well to incorporate them into my play.

The nearest metaphor I can produce to describe this is to talk about Maths. I would always stress to anyone I was teaching that they needed to get mental arithmetic to a good basic standard if they wanted to progress, rather than rely on a calculator. The reason for this is that when you get to the harder problems you need your basic arithmetic skills to be automatic. If it is, then you are just being tested on the content of the question; if it is not then you are being tested on the content of the question AND arithmetic, and the whole subject becomes much harder. I had (unsurprisingly) not reached the point where my understanding of conflicts was automatic, and so every move was an effort, fraught with uncertainty.

In the second game I picked loads of green tiles, and so went around more or less randomly placing monuments, just to see what would happen. In fact what happened was that I got completely smashed from pillar to post, and finished last on 4 points. It was actually quite a quick, chaotic and low scoring game due to the high quantity of inadvisable conflicts going on, and the scores were 7 for the winner, with two players on 5, so I wasn’t completely humiliated.

I really suffered in this game through not understanding conflicts, and initiated and lost two conflicts which I should never have started. As a result I realised I was out of contention about halfway through with no way back, and the rest of the game was a significantly less satisfying experience than the first had been.

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Things I like about Tigris & Euphrates

I absolutely love the depth of gameplay I can glimpse in this game. I can see how people might love this game, and I think it is worthy of its top ten position in the rankings on BGG. To produce such depth of play from relatively simple rules is a fantastic achievement.

Tigris & Euphrates does not outstay its welcome, by which I mean that the length of time it takes to play a game (playing time) does not exceed the amount of interesting decisions to be made (game weight).

There are interesting decisions to be made on almost every turn.

The scoring mechanism where you score your lowest colour is really clever, and adds a lot to the gameplay.

The interaction between players on the board is high, although the interaction between players off the board is low. This game is too thinky to be as good a social experience as many others.

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Things I dislike about Tigris & Euphrates

Unless there are a group of you all learning the game at the same time, you will have to lose a lot before you start to win. In this respect Tigris & Euphrates reminds me of Chess. I learnt as a child when we were all learning together, and actually got reasonably good at it in my teens. In adulthood I found that the only people who kept on playing were really good, and I wasn’t interested enough to put in the time necessary to be competitive. At that sort of level, Chess stopped being ‘fun’ and started being ‘work’. It seems to be that Tigris & Euphrates has the same eventual outcome. (This is not to say that Chess (or Tigris & Euphrates) are unrewarding games. I believe both have sufficient depth to warrant the time invested, if you are happy to devote the time). If you want to learn, and the people you are playing have already played the game a bit, you should be prepared to lose a lot.

If you lose a key combat, you can find yourself out of contention by mid-game with no way back in.

Without wishing to big myself up too much, I regard myself as being reasonably bright. However I find the internal and external conflicts extremely difficult to incorporate into my play. This is perhaps a fault of my lack of experience with the game, rather than of the game itself, but if I’m struggling with it then most (although not all) of the members of my family will struggle even more.

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Why I won’t be buying this game

I would need to devote more time to learning this game than I am prepared to put in to play it well. My own personal circumstances in terms of gaming partners mean that I would have to lose a lot of games against experienced players before I started to get good.

It is too complicated for most of the groups I play with. This is the other side of my personal gaming circumstances. The people who I could play with in a lighter spirit who aren’t experienced players of Tigris & Euphrates would not be interested due to their personal tastes on rules and complexity.

I can play this at the games club I’ve started attending recently, so it’s not as though I can never play this again.

Conclusion

Tigris & Euphrates is a fabulous game of tremendous depth, but only if you are prepared to invest a lot of time into it, and have the right groups of people to play with.

At this point in my life I want to play a variety of different games each week, rather than invest a lot of time to dig deep into one game, however rewarding that might be. I therefore fail on condition one.

I would be prepared to play in a light way with my family, but for various reasons my family gaming groups are completely wrong for this game. One involves my Dad, who has impaired vision after a stroke, and would not be able to scan the board when deciding how best to place his tiles. He would also struggle even more than me with the conflicts, and would probably struggle with playing a symbol rather than a colour.

I also play games with my wife and in-laws, but they prefer games with far fewer rules and much shorter duration. Carcassonne has too many rules for them. So I therefore fail the second condition.

So although I won’t be buying Tigris & Euphrates for myself, I don’t want this to be a 100% negative review. This is a great game, but it isn’t for everyone. I hope this account of my personal experience will be useful to some people.

UPDATE:
Encouraged by some of the advice given to this review I've played another game, and while by decision not to buy remains the same, I'm considerably less negative about the rules.

Important points to make:

The game I played was a 4 player with all players being relative newbies. We were therefore all at very much the same level of ability which helped.

To get over my confusion between internal and external conflicts, I decided to put internal conflicts out of my mind (you only get 1 red cube anyway), and for this game as a one off, only think about external conflicts. This immediately removed any confusion I had between them, and actually helped me understand both, which was more than I had hoped for. I still tried to surround my leaders with red tiles - I just wasn't looking to start any internal conflicts.

I played a competitive game - in fact winning the game - although on reflection I can see where I made several errors. the biggest of these is a tendency I have to build Monuments which I then lose. I suppose this is the first layer of strategy I've uncovered. Anyway, as a result I have upped by personal rating of the game, and I thought I'd add this update for anyone in a similar position to me.

I still won't buy this game, because although it is very good it is the wrong game for the people I play with. I will quite happily play this in the future.

Reply: Tigris & Euphrates:: Strategy:: Re: Basic Strategy Questions

monkeyboy157 — Mon, 08 Jun 2009 15:57:56 +0000

by monkeyboy157

shugyosha wrote:
stephenhope (#78925),

A couple of things no-one mentioned yet.

Initial placements of King and Trader are very very common because they are very useful - the King allows you to play
any tile and still get points, the trader allows you to pick up treasures. Interfering with this is part of the
game - adding your priest to someone else's kingdom can mess up their ability to protect their leaders from
internal conflict (and enable you to engineer some revolution in your favor).

Another reason not to play King and Temple first turn is there is no advantage - you leave a 2 temple spot open for
a potential conflict, so you will both be at a base of 2 anyway. The only reason to do it is if you have a decent
amount of temples in your hand and actually want someone to try an internal conflict to get some out-of-turn victory
points. Also the spots with treasure are disaster proof, so even though you only have 1 temple support, your leader
is safe from bolts from the heavens.

Enjoy your games!

David

In our first few plays we seem to place king and temple. We all learned together and don't have enough experience to have a lot of deep strategy yet, but I don't see a reason that this opening is bad. You say that you leave a two spot open, but you don't. I like to place my king next to the temple, then the temple next to my king so it makes a line. So unless the other player is going to place a temple, then their leader they won't have two temples on the board for the internal conflict, but I will. Even if you do place the king and temple to make an L shape, how is that different from placing my king and my trader on the same temple? This gives somebody a one to one tie to start just as the L shape would give them a two to two tie to start, it seems like the exact same situation to me.

Anyway, I'm still learning strategies on this game, but I personally like to open king-temple. Also I see nothing wrong with putting 2 or 3 of your leaders in the same kingdom to start with, but I can also see the value of putting them in other peoples' kingdoms, not because of the conflict, but to stop them from getting any color out of their lonely king leader. As for positioning your leaders later on, you need to move them to where they will have the most benefit. Especially if you see a large external conflict coming up. Try to get your leader on the side that has the most in that color. Use your red tiles and initiate an internal conflict, then wait for the external conflict and hopefully you can beat them just on the fact that you have more supporters on the board already.

I'm enjoying the different strategies that I see as I keep playing this game. I'm sure I'm missing some obvious ones, but I'm definitely starting to see more. Moving your leaders to better locations, either for an external conflict or for a monument, I think is a big key to this game.

Reply: Tigris & Euphrates:: General:: Re: Special Abilities

monkeyboy157 — Mon, 08 Jun 2009 15:22:43 +0000

by monkeyboy157

kusinohki wrote:
Also, there are more red and blue tiles than black and green. Not sure if that's a reason, a byproduct, or just happenstance, but thought I would mention it.

I guess that could be the reason those tiles are the fewest in the game, I didn't really think about it like that.

Gyges wrote:
In theory, all four colours kinda sorta have special abilities... in a way. The blue tiles go on water and the red tiles adjudicate internal conflicts.
As for the blue and red leaders themselves, they don't have special abilities; but then again, neither do black or green tiles.

Okay, so the tiles might make up for the fact that the leaders themselves don't have anything special. However, blue being able to go on the river is good, but it's also bad because they can't go anywhere else.

Anyway, I've enjoyed my first few plays of this, I just think it's weird that they would give two of the leaders something special and leave out the other two.

Reply: Tigris & Euphrates:: General:: Re: Special Abilities

kusinohki — Sun, 07 Jun 2009 06:01:00 +0000

by kusinohki

Also, there are more red and blue tiles than black and green. Not sure if that's a reason, a byproduct, or just happenstance, but thought I would mention it.

Reply: Tigris & Euphrates:: General:: Re: Special Abilities

Gyges — Sun, 07 Jun 2009 03:01:12 +0000

by Gyges

In theory, all four colours kinda sorta have special abilities... in a way. The blue tiles go on water and the red tiles adjudicate internal conflicts.
As for the blue and red leaders themselves, they don't have special abilities; but then again, neither do black or green tiles.

Thread: Tigris & Euphrates:: General:: Special Abilities

monkeyboy157 — Sun, 07 Jun 2009 02:48:55 +0000

by monkeyboy157

I have done a quick search and didn't really find anything on this, so I thought I'd start my own thread. Why is it that the king and the trader have special abilities, but the farmer and the priest don't? Did I miss something in the rules? It just seems odd to me that you would give two of them something unique, but the other two aren't.

Reply: Tigris & Euphrates:: Rules:: Re: Advanced rule about treasures

monkeyboy157 — Sun, 07 Jun 2009 02:28:38 +0000

by monkeyboy157

Thanks for the link to that thread. I just sent an email with my information. Now I'll have to find something to use until the cubes arrive.

Reply: Tigris & Euphrates:: General:: Re: Tigris and Euphrates Treasure Cube Error

monkeyboy157 — Sun, 07 Jun 2009 02:27:53 +0000

by monkeyboy157

Thanks, email sent. I'm glad this error will be fixed.

New Image for Tigris & Euphrates

ZeroCool_ITA — Tue, 02 Jun 2009 19:36:08 +0000

by ZeroCool_ITA

2nd board of the new edition

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Asur — Mon, 01 Jun 2009 20:03:42 +0000

by Asur

Thinking...

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LanaDove — Mon, 01 Jun 2009 08:36:43 +0000

by LanaDove

Archer Screen in Russian edition

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LanaDove — Mon, 01 Jun 2009 08:36:38 +0000

by LanaDove

Bull Screen in Russian edition

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LanaDove — Mon, 01 Jun 2009 08:34:47 +0000

by LanaDove

Lion Screen in Russian edition

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LanaDove — Mon, 01 Jun 2009 08:32:33 +0000

by LanaDove

Tiles in Russian edition

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LanaDove — Mon, 01 Jun 2009 08:28:17 +0000

by LanaDove

Components in Russian edition

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LanaDove — Mon, 01 Jun 2009 08:27:31 +0000

by LanaDove

Urn Screen in Russian edition

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LanaDove — Mon, 01 Jun 2009 08:23:14 +0000

by LanaDove

GR, BB, BG and RB Monuments in Russian edition

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LanaDove — Mon, 01 Jun 2009 08:17:10 +0000

by LanaDove

Player's screen hide, tiles and Victory Points in Russian edition

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LanaDove — Mon, 01 Jun 2009 08:16:05 +0000

by LanaDove

Green tokens in Russian edition

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LanaDove — Mon, 01 Jun 2009 08:10:00 +0000

by LanaDove

Red, black, green and blue tiles in Russian edition

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New Image for Tigris & Euphrates

LanaDove — Mon, 01 Jun 2009 08:09:47 +0000

by LanaDove

Tiles in Russian edition

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Thread: Tigris & Euphrates:: General:: T&E Tourney Guild

Blue Uriah — Fri, 29 May 2009 14:50:30 +0000

by Blue Uriah

For those of you who enjoy playing T&E here on the Geek, I thought I'd direct your attention to the Guild we've just set up.

Click here to visit

We're currently nearing the end of our first competitive league - 44 players, 30 games each, 330 games in total over the past 4 months - and it was a tremendous success so we will be running more events in the future. If you like the PBEM games here but want something a bit more structured and organised, come and join in!

And we're now taking entries for a quick Summer Knockout - a great way to get your feet wet. Details at the guild.

New Image for Tigris & Euphrates

helioa — Fri, 29 May 2009 09:48:57 +0000

by helioa

RiaCon 2009

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siberianhusky — Tue, 26 May 2009 11:38:31 +0000

by siberianhusky

I'm as usual declaring the war. At this moment I didn't know yet that ...

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siberianhusky — Tue, 26 May 2009 11:34:23 +0000

by siberianhusky

AP: we have it.

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siberianhusky — Tue, 26 May 2009 11:27:25 +0000

by siberianhusky

I am declaring the War to the Archer!

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siberianhusky — Tue, 26 May 2009 11:27:08 +0000

by siberianhusky

Game in progress: Qatya makes her turn

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Reply: Tigris & Euphrates:: Sessions:: Re: Tigris for 2, x2

aaxiom — Wed, 20 May 2009 18:38:27 +0000

by aaxiom

There is simply so much that needs to be done during a game of T&E, and not enough time or resources to do it all.

It's an incredible game of excruciatingly difficult trade-off decisions, and this is why it's one of the greats, in my opinion.

Thanks for the session report!
aax

Session: Tigris & Euphrates:: Sessions:: Tigris for 2, x2

alexd — Wed, 20 May 2009 16:32:28 +0000

by alexd

Our first two games, 2 player, Mrs. alexd as my worthy opponent.

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First Game

Call this one a learning experience, or a warmup. I played the left side, my wife played the right, essentially. Almost no conflicts (one internal of no real consequence), no monuments, a simple search for treasure. We were somewhat surprised by the end -- neither of us had realized how quickly the treasures would go, and were just getting ready to really play. At the end, I had five in two aspects of my civilization; she had five in one, and six in her next, and so won.

Second Game

Now we had some idea (some!) what this thing was. A game in earnest began:

We started, as before, with treasure seeking, placing our kings and moving outwards to gain some early points: I was in the middle left of the board, my wife in the upper right. I placed my farmer with her king, expecting she'd have to move out of the watery corner, so I'd get a few blue points that way.

She kept her king for a while in that area, then moved her king out, not returning until my farmer left. Meanwhile, I took some treasure, she took some treasure, and we continued to expand.

The upper right kingdom, with her trader in it, snaked around to head down the middle of the fertile valley, towards "my" kingdom (with the king and the trader). I considered starting a war, seeing many markets on my side of the board, but hesitated: she wouldn't be creeping toward me if she weren't confident in her tiles. It turned out to be good that I waited: I took one more treasure, and she moved her king to safer ground (my king was supported by many settlements). When the war came, she produced four markets from behind the screen. She pointed out that she'd wanted me to start the conflict, so she wouldn't have to use her whole force. The five green she gained ended her weakness in the economic aspects of civilization. The broken kingdom below still held my king, but nothing else.

I had moved my farmer and priest up to the upper left corner, where I'd founded a monument (since her priest was firmly planted in the lower kingdom and I needed red tiles). A bit of foolishness on my part: I placed them so that the monument creation removed them both from the board (no temples) and so delayed any gains from the monument by couple of turns (I moved first to take some treasure before my wife joined to the lower kingdom).

She had joined the upper left water to her main kingdom before the conflict of traders, and had taken a good bit of treasure, but was weak in settlements and farms. My steady gains in farms and temples after I finally got the red/blue monument working were slowly overcoming a weakness in agriculture, but in quick order my wife started three monuments in the kingdom that now extended from the middle of the left side of the valley, up the side, and almost down to the central points of the valley, where my king waited with a considerable support.

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The three monuments were clearly going to destroy me if left things unchallenged: unfortunately, I had no temples, and my only hope was to join kingdoms to force the last treasure to be taken (by her!), while I might still have the edge. The bridge forced a conflict of kings -- but I had one more settlement, and we'd both needed to play out our tiles (I thought) due to weakness in settlements. She revealed one settlement from behind the board, and my king returned, while paying a tribute of six black cubes. The last treasure went her way, and she was able to make all five of her treasures blue, as the black victory ended her weakness in that aspect.

My wife won this one, too, 13-8. I need to learn to use monuments better, and fight for them!

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Thoughts

What did we think? We're impressed. The game may be too confrontational (it's almost a war game!) to be a personal favorite, but it's clear why this is a true classic. The rules are fairly simple but profound, play is engrossing and feels thematic ("like a story or an adventure" as my wife put it), and it is neither an abstract nor a Euro, really, but a thing of its own. And we haven't even used the catastrophe tiles yet.

Come, feel the lost wind and wander by the ancient waters of the cradle of civilization!

All images courtesy of EndersGame

Reply: Tigris & Euphrates:: General:: Re: Where to play it solo online?

mrMute — Tue, 19 May 2009 21:33:40 +0000

by mrMute

here:

http://www.gametableonline.com

Reply: Tigris & Euphrates:: Sessions:: Re: First "Advanced Board" Game

ChrisHandy — Tue, 19 May 2009 05:32:55 +0000

by ChrisHandy

My favorite game of all time....having everything I want in a game. Great review!

Session: Tigris & Euphrates:: Sessions:: First "Advanced Board" Game

tiggers — Tue, 19 May 2009 04:19:06 +0000

by tiggers

3 player dominance

I love this game but am relatively new to it (only 6 logged plays). I played a three player game against two others who had only
played 1 game each prior to this and those 4 additional plays made a big difference.

This was the first time I had used the advanced side of the board, with additional buildings (inc the ziggurat), in the latest Mayfair edition of the game. I read up on the additional rules and we got going.

Each player tended to start their own, single kingdom, and stick to it. I was determined not to fall into the trap of treasure
hunting which was my downfall last time I played ~ too much outlay for too little return. We watched each other from afar but didn't
intervene. I was fortunate to pick up a succession of red tiles and laid them out diagonally so that each of my leaders was adjacent
to two, three or even four red tiles to protect me from internal conflicts (and as it turned out external priestly conflicts). I also was able to draw a bunch of blue tiles early and so even though I had planned to build a monument I went for three straight blue tiles down a river to build my first (ever) blue building (can't remember the name of them in the rules right now). This seemed like a good idea but it never produced a single cube for me. Partly cause I kept drawing groups of other colours (four blacks, then greens then reds) and so was too busy building monuments to worry about my river building. The monuments (three in all) were producing so many cubes that I didn't add to the river and in the mean time the next kingdom over built a longer stretch down the river and took it from me. As it turned out we were all collecting treasures without much conflict, but as we grew external conflict became inevitable.

Thanks to my plethora of red tiles when I connected to my neighbour, not only did I gain a massive victory (5 cubes) but also captured a monument in the process. I didn't hold it for long as a catastrophe tile was played on me and broke my narrow connection to that particular monument but the other three were producing nicely anyway.

In the end the other players paid the price for not attaching early enough (one did attempt an internal conflict not quite realising how this would end and paid the price for it) and were wiped away 18 to 8 to 8. I did realize after the game that I had made one major error in my favour (rookie mistake) and that is my king was collecting red cubes from monuments for a period early in the game when my priest was absent. In the end I had 24 red cubes so even if I got half of those (unlikely) from my dodgy dealings I don't think the result would have been different. We did play that way throughout the game and others benefited from it in their kingdoms but I think I got the lion's share so to speak.

Still the game was fun, and the extra 4 treasures didn't seem to prolong the game. Although no one attempted to build the ziggurat (obviously not chit-chaters). One of the other players remarked that a four player game has a lot more conflict because of the limited real estate available, which makes sense. I like it with 2, 3 or 4 players and will continue to play every chance I get - hopefully obeying the rules in future.

Reply: Tigris & Euphrates:: Rules:: Re: Internal Conflict Twice in One Turn?

laureneve — Mon, 18 May 2009 05:09:46 +0000

by laureneve

Thanks!

Reply: Tigris & Euphrates:: Rules:: Re: Internal Conflict Twice in One Turn?

dkeisen — Mon, 18 May 2009 04:40:58 +0000

by dkeisen

No. The Black Leader's special ability only applies to the VP cube obtained from placing a tile.

Reply: Tigris & Euphrates:: Rules:: Re: Internal Conflict Twice in One Turn?

laureneve — Mon, 18 May 2009 04:29:58 +0000

by laureneve

Thanks so much for your help! That's what I thought.

We came up with another question that hopefully someone can help us answer. If a black leader is present in an area where there is a monument that contains a colour that has no current leader of that colour represented in the area, does the black leader get to collect the victory point of that colour at the end of the turn?

Reply: Tigris & Euphrates:: Rules:: Re: Internal Conflict Twice in One Turn?

mdp4828 — Mon, 18 May 2009 03:56:05 +0000

by mdp4828

This is perfectly fine and a legitimate strategy. It doesn't come up often, but it does come up occationally.

Thread: Tigris & Euphrates:: Rules:: Internal Conflict Twice in One Turn?

laureneve — Mon, 18 May 2009 03:48:15 +0000

by laureneve

Hi,
I am just learning Tigris and Euphrates and am currently in the middle of my second game. (I learned from experienced players but am now playing a 2 player game with a new player like myself!) We were just wondering if it is permitted to initiate internal conflict with the same leader twice in one turn? For example, I tried to move my leader to initiate internal conflict and lost, therefore removing my leader from the board and giving the other player a red victory point. However, since her leader was only adjacent to one temple and neither of us had any red temple tiles left, I was able to reposition my leader adjacent to 2 red temples and win the second time. Is this allowed or is only one internal conflict with the same leader allowed per turn? I couldn't seem to find anything in the rules that said I couldn't do this but I only skimmed quickly.

Thanks!