Trevor Dewey
United States
Miami
Florida
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Read the Tao and disagreed rather strongly with a few comments (and agreed with others).
WR is the _worst_ RR in the game (Tao seems to suggest this--I wanted to emphasize it). Certainly every 18xx group has its gestalt and I'm sure that their are many groups where the WR opens everytime but a WR can't compete with the LPS or GW. You're better off putting money into either of those than runnning the WR. Putting this another way - I don't care how many times you've played 1856 - if you're in a "serious" game (however defined - you're not opening the WR on a bet -- you're not drunk - you're not "experimenting") and you open the WR and you honestly believe you have a chance to win either (a) everyone you're playing with plays very, very, very nice - such that you can run those 3 two-trains for an eternity (i.e. they're all fish) or (b) you're a fish.
LPS is the best RR in the game. No. Don't argue. Don't mention the CPR, GW or anything else. Just accept that the LPS is the best RR in the game. I leave it as an exercise to the reader as to why.
GW is the second best RR in the game. The LPS and GW should always open 1 2 in a serious game.
The next question is much harder: do you open your own company or do you ride the LPS or the GW to victory (or at least 2nd place)?
The CV and GT can open and do well - but only if both actively collude with each other. So open, but only if the guy to your left agrees to collude with you.
The CPR is only good if the GT opens and agrees to collude - but only a bad GT player will do that. It's almost always a better idea to buy the LPS or GW than open the CPR.
The CA would be decent in an LPS/GW free world - as such a world should only exist in our nightmares - don't start the CA unless you're going to collude with the GW to screw the LPS. It won't work (I did say the LPS was the best company in the game) but maybe you'll have fun trying.
The key to 1856 is to realize that while you can open a railroad - sometimes its better not too. This goes for the middle-game as well. There will come a time when you've got 450+ in your hand and you're tempted to open a company when the last four is sitting forlornly in the pile. Don't start the company. Don't jump onto that knife.
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J C Lawrence
United States
Campbell
California
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tdewey wrote: WR is the _worst_ RR in the game (Tao seems to suggest this--I wanted to emphasize it). Certainly every 18xx group has its gestalt and I'm sure that their are many groups where the WR opens everytime but a WR can't compete with the LPS or GW. You're better off putting money into either of those than runnning the WR. Putting this another way - I don't care how many times you've played 1856 - if you're in a "serious" game (however defined - you're not opening the WR on a bet -- you're not drunk - you're not "experimenting") and you open the WR and you honestly believe you have a chance to win either (a) everyone you're playing with plays very, very, very nice - such that you can run those 3 two-trains for an eternity (i.e. they're all fish) or (b) you're a fish.
Try opening the WR for $100/share. All sorts of interesting things become possible.
Quote: LPS is the best RR in the game. No. Don't argue. Don't mention the CPR, GW or anything else. Just accept that the LPS is the best RR in the game. I leave it as an exercise to the reader as to why.
The GW can easily make the LPS suck, and suck badly. It happens in almost half our games. I'd also put the CV right in there as primo if you can also get the BBG or maybe the GT (CV+BBG is usually better).
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Devin Smith
Australia
Brisbane
Queensland
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The views on which railroads are good depends on the groupthink of your group, partly, and upon your chosen strategy.
Regarding the latter, there's really three early-game options:
Open high, keep company: Here, you want a company that's good long-term. You're also not going to be able to open a second company as fast because of the high cost of ownership in company no. 1. People using this paradigm prefer companies like the CV.
Open low, keep company (take loans as needed): Again long term prospects matter, but not as much.
Open low, loan the company to death, give it the government: This, compared to the first strategy above, produces /much/ different priorities. First, long term prospects don't matter at all--if you can set up two three-train runs, that's good enough, though sometimes you wind up with 3+4 instead.
This last case is the 'most interesting' one, as it is a very strong strategy, and leads to the following considerations:
1) Fast early money
2) Destinatable before the government forms, so that the first company can give money to the second company you form
This leads to the following company rank, approximately:
LPS: You almost certainly won't have the tunnel or the port, as it costs too much to open the LPS, but it's still easily the best company. Between Glencoe and London, the LPS's 3-train runs are unblockable.
GW, CA: in that order, worth opening. The CA needs the GW or LPS to play nice to have a reasonable run early, and the GW has to play nice with the CA or it'll destinate approximately never, as the railhead in Glencoe is a requirement. The tunnel is nice to have here, but may not be possible.
WR: the one nice thing about the bridge is that no one will take your company from you, unlike the tunnel companies. It can be tricky to get two three or four trains and buy in the bridge for full, but that's what loans are for.
GT/CPR: the next best. the GT can be tricky to destinate, the CPR has a period of having to drive for Toronto, which can hurt the mid-game runs. If both open, one isn't destinating without some serious work.
Everybody else: nope.
Mid-game, the long-term prospects matter much more. Two of the CV, BBG, and THB get the railhead in Burlington: whoever does is in good shape. The Trunk/CPR are worth opening once destinating goes away, if they're left. If the WR isn't opened first thing, it's rarely worth it, as the first poster might have been trying to say, but that's the great thing about 1856--you can just give away the good early-game bad late-game companies to the gov't. If any of the western companies is left, they're worth it too, especially as any railheaded-out cities will open up once the gov't forms.
In our local 4- or 5- player games, the companies to open in the first SR are usually the LPS,GW,CA,WR (and GT), but that varies occasionally with someone taking a flier on the CPR or some other company.
Quote: ...If you open the WR and you honestly believe you have a chance to win either (a) everyone you're playing with plays very, very, very nice - such that you can run those 3 two-trains for an eternity (i.e. they're all fish) or (b) you're a fish.
Well, I wouldn't say 'for an eternity', but I certainly would say 'until the Welland goes into the government with 7-10 loans'.
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Trevor Dewey
United States
Miami
Florida
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I don't see how the GW can make the LPS suck (without hosing its own position) - please elaborate. Even if the LPS is tokened out by the CA/GW, the LPS will still destinate first of all companies (you don't need to run to the destination to destinate).
As for starting the WR at 100 - bleh, blech and double blech. I repeat, if the WR is a viable option in your group's games somebody is doning something wrong.
(1) The WR has to start high to avoid getting tile-hosed. It needs at least 1 tight city to run its 3 two trains (it needs gentle curve or tight curve + tight curve) - if it can't get both it can't run one of its twos. If it doesn't start high those tiles may already be in use. The LPS & GW run well with any available city tile combo.
This leads to point one: If you are letting a WR capable of getting 3 2-trains run well by not using up the tight cities early - something is wrong.
(2) The WR needs to run its 2 trains for a while.
This leads to point two: If you are letting a WR (or the CPR or the ?)run 3 2-trains for a while - something is wrong.
(3) The WR will usually get tokened out from hitting Toronto.
This leads to point three: the Welland looks pretty on the dance floor but when you take her home...
Edit: The reason why I'm boggled on the GW/LPS issue is that if they work together they have the best 3/4 run midgame - and as you know 3's last almost as long as 4's in 1856. So for the GW to try and "screw" the LPS means that it is trying to screw itself out of its optimal 3/4 run.
Cheers
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Devin Smith
Australia
Brisbane
Queensland
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Quote: (1) The WR has to start high to avoid getting tile-hosed. It needs at least 1 tight city to run its 3 two trains (it needs gentle curve or tight curve + tight curve) - if it can't get both it can't run one of its twos.
The tight city will be available by the time the Welland really needs it--the usual set of tile lays hereaboust is shallow curve to welland, OO in welland, K in niagara. There's no need to buy 3 2-trains to make the welland good--or at least acceptable. 1 or 2 2-trains will do--the threes will be out by OR 2 anyhow.
There's no question that if you played a tight curve city in Niagara that there would be no tile left to play on the city S of there--so don't do it.
Quote: (2) The WR needs to run its 2-trains for a while.
Not true. It needs to run its 3-trains for a while, but so does everyone. The 3s last a long time--typically from OR2 until the government forms some 12 (or so) train purchases later. Which is when the Welland goes into the government.
Quote: (3) The WR will usually get tokened out from hitting Toronto.
And? The welland will, in my experience, never care wether it gets to Tornto. It will run its 3-trains for about the same as the western companies, and it will destinate before the goverment forms. And then it will die.
I'd be more than willing to take my chances opening the Welland in your group, tdewey.
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J C Lawrence
United States
Campbell
California
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The WR doesn't have to get to Toronto. The primary use of the Welland is to a) buy in expensive privates for top dollar while leaving treasury cash for trains, b) generate investor cashflow for second round companies with two 3 trains (forget the 2s -- is there anything that can run a 3 train as well as the WR?), and c) generate cheap CNR shares when it is finally nationalised due to the massive debt load.
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Trevor Dewey
United States
Miami
Florida
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Excalabur wrote:
The tight city will be available by the time the Welland really needs it--the usual set of tile lays hereaboust is shallow curve to welland, OO in welland, K in niagara. There's no need to buy 3 2-trains to make the welland good--or at least acceptable. 1 or 2 2-trains will do--the threes will be out by OR 2 anyhow.
This proves my point - for the WR to run well you must have particular track available - let's look at your group think: gentle curve/OO/K. The K and OO are only available if the 3 is out - the other players should force you to purchase the 3 (which means no OO lay until your next turn - if they're available - which means that you have at least two runs where you're only running one train if you played the gentle curve) even better, if you've set the WR high (and you probably have), this means that the other players all get to play their greens and rape for maximum.
Quote: (3) The WR will usually get tokened out from hitting Toronto.
And? The welland will, in my experience, never care wether it gets to Tornto. It will run its 3-trains for about the same as the western companies, and it will destinate before the goverment forms. And then it will die.
I'd be more than willing to take my chances opening the Welland in your group, tdewey. [/q]
Dragonflight Seattle Gaming Con 2006 (or most subsequent years). And no way does the WR run its 3 trains as well as the GW/LPS - unfortunately the board is not in front of me so I'll have to work up the runs later and edit this post.
And yes, it's true that that the WR doesn't care about Toronoto like most of the starting companies it will fold into the CGR - but both the LPS and GW retain a long-term option that is not available for the WR (again proving that LPS & GW >> WR)- depending on stock value, players can save the LPS&GW and win the game--the lack of access for the WR means that its long-term prospects are terrible.
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Jason Weiss
United States
San Antonio
Texas
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The Welland:
I Generaly don't start the Welland, but its difficulties can be an asset.
1. No one will help the Welland destinate. So money will not miraculously appear in the company and keep it from folding into the CGR.
2. It runs a three train or two well. To get you money.
3. It is generally worthless enough that if you only hold two shares it is possible no one will take it from you and you can run it backwards and fund a real company.
If I think I can get away with it I will open the Welland at 65, buy a three train and a small loot, sell two of my shares and open a real company. Generally people will leave the Welland alone because they need the money in their own company. Remember the companies are tools to get you money, the goal is to strip their mangy hides and dump the hollow shell on the government.
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Bill Gallagher
United States
California
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In almost every game I've played, the LPS starts first (usually at 65). If there's only three players, there's a fair chance that the LPS won't get help (as the other two start the Welland and one of the CV, GT, or CPR). Generally though, someone will start the GW (and perhaps the CA as well) and cooperate in the west.
If the Welland does grab three early trains (assuming at least two 2s), then one definitely wants to rust those 2s as early as possible.
The first companies started (with the possible exception of the ones in the northeast) usually get absorbed into the CGR.
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David Aber
United States
Shawnee
Kansas
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Excalabur wrote: Quote: ...If you open the WR and you honestly believe you have a chance to win either (a) everyone you're playing with plays very, very, very nice - such that you can run those 3 two-trains for an eternity (i.e. they're all fish) or (b) you're a fish. Well, I wouldn't say 'for an eternity', but I certainly would say 'until the Welland goes into the government with 7-10 loans'.
You play with really nice people to hold those extra shares to keep those loans :)
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Michael Leuchtenburg
United States
Sunderland
Massachusetts
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clearclaw wrote: The GW can easily make the LPS suck, and suck badly. It happens in almost half our games.
Not in the early game. The LPS neatly runs 2-4 trains, some into the red off-board area. It goes very well with the port.
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