For some reason I never joined this place before, but, now I'm here I'd love to hear your thoughts about the board gaming at these shows. I run that area of the show and would really like to know both the good and the bad. Most of you would/might recognize me as the 'guy in the black leather hat' however, at So Cal it is brown.

I've already read the thread about hating GB7 [and no open gaming] (please see respose under that thread).

Creating an area of 'organized play' by the folks on this forum would not be hard. In fact, I'd be willing to help make that a reality if you wish.

For those not impressed by GB7 I would suggest trying a game run by Rogue Judges.They are another small group of judges that DO know to run boardgames (they teach them if needed and have a knowing staff on hand).

I do not care how big this thread gets, I promise I'll read all posts and do my best within the system of Gen Con to make board games the VERY BEST of anyones Gen Con experience.

Lee Maile

Having been in games run by Rogue Judges over the past 4 years at Gen Con I can definately second the comment that they know what they are doing and it is joy to play in games run by them.

As someone who has run the board gaming room for our local con, and taught and run games at other conventions, I have a great deal of respect for the effort that Rogue Judges put into their events.

It would be great to see BGG or some other group of quality gamers sponser an open boardgaming area at GenCon that would work like the Board Room at Origins.

Hey, Lee.

Let me first say thanks for your hard work volunteering every year, and thanks for listening. You did a good job finding room for everyone to open play, when they asked.

My question is this. I was discussing with the guys I came with as to how hard it would be to go to the Con organizers and request a permanent open board gaming space for Board Game Geeks. If the Puffing Billy folks can buy a ribbon for $15 bucks and play rail games all weekend, can we arrange to get Board Game Geek ribbons for the same $15 and play all weekend on our own tables, too. I understand that Origins has a similar system set up, but it was less needed there because the whole con is more open to the social open-play atmosphere.

There was some feeling expressed among us that the GenCon organization is mired in burocracy, and therefore hard to crack. And that GB7 was what they were happy with, and that's just the way it was going to stay. An opinion I just can't quite accept.

Ideally, for this to work it would have to be in the event book ahead of time. I can all but guarantee that the geeks here would go for it - The badges would help us find each other without having to hunt down Mike to get one of the nifty buttons he made up for all of us.

If it's a question of finding volunteers to help keep it going, I also can't imagine it would be tough. It's be a smaller group that the Puffing Billy tournament, and they managed with just a few people at a time (and they have to keep track of wins, losses, schedules, etc.) Is this kind of thing possible?

Thanks for the time, Lee.

Hey Lee, I remember you from SoCal! I ran several games of Lord of the Rings and Robo Rally there - I think I was one of the only independent GMs.

Anyway, based on what I've been reading about Game Base 7, I'm wanting to do some kind of scheduled open gaming - having a table reserved, and a bunch of games with me that I can teach. (As an event, so I'd collect a generic from everyone for every 2 hours.) The goal being to give players looking for open gaming a place to rally, and to be able to teach and spread gaming.

I'm not sure if I'd be stepping on anyone's toes with that. I had a good time GMing last year, but I definitely felt like an outcast - like the people working for Wizards and such couldn't believe that someone was just running games for the fun of it!

Hi Lee,

Thanks for posting and listening.

While it's good that you've joined BGG, the fact that you hadn't previously is perhaps indicative of the sort of problem you are facing...

As far as suggestions, the ones I'm about to make apply to GenCon SoCal.

You've got a tough row to hoe. There have been three lackluster (at best) years of boardgaming so far, and the word is out in the local boardgaming community that it isn't worth the time or money to attend. Addressing and reversing that image is going to be a lot of work, and may well not be possible in the short term.

GenCon seemed to come to town with an attitude that if you just hung up the shingle, people would come, and deal with whatever, just because it is "GenCon". That may be true (to an extent) for CCG and RPG players, but it doesn't work for boardgamers.

First, a lot of the local Los Angeles-area boardgamers are used to being able to attend a day of high-quality gaming for free or for a nominal $5 fee. The local full-weekend conventions only charge $20-$35, with no event fees; but even those relatively reasonable costs put a *lot* of the local gamers off.

In order to justify GenCon's relatively high admission (not to mention the event fees (which *really* stick in the craws of the locals)) and the cost of gas and/or hotels, you have to deliver a superior product/experience.

To put it bluntly, GenCon SoCal is not doing that. There's a bit of a chicken and egg thing going on, but the reality is, without a high-quality experience, you just aren't going to get the people, so it falls on you to do what it takes to deliver.

You should prominently designate a sizable area for open boardgaming. That area should be open 24 hours a day.

That area should not be relegated to an off-site hotel; ghettoization never makes anyone happy. (And you should make sure that the lights stay *on* in that area. Last year, the lights in the off-site hotel ballroom went out repeatedly for extended periods of time; that sort of unprofessional occurance should not be tolerated or even possible.)

Game Base 7 should not be involved in running events unless and until they are able to deliver an acceptable level of customer service (at a minimum, this means being polite and professional, and being able and willing to properly explain the rules of the games they "run").

*Every* boardgamer I've spoken to about it has a GB7 horror story, and no one involved with GenCon seems to know or care. They are doing you more harm than good; you'd be better off with a relatively bare schedule than with them running a lot of events. Whatever their level of service at Indy, they are just too far from home in SoCal to do a decent job.

Have an ombudsman available (and prominently labeled and visible), with the knowlege and power to deal with issues like incompentent "help" from event runners, table-space conflicts, etc.

Something has to be done about the exhibitor hall. SoCal is a shadow of Indy, and that hurts badly. A lot of sins would be forgiven if the exhibitor area was compelling. Do what you have to do to get more and better exhibitors, particularly boardgaming-oriented ones.

You need to do better outreach to the local community; they are your attendees, and the ones that will run events that people actually want. That means doing more than setting up a table for a few hours at the local game conventions and leaving a few stickers and flyers once they leave (well before the day is over) or flyering the local gamestores.

Run more tournaments. That means more than Settlers and Puerto Rico.

Minimize overlap between prominent events (like tournaments); you don't want or need your big guns cannibalizing each other.

To recap, you have an image problem and an execution problem.

You have to address both; fixing the execution problem isn't enough, you have to fix it, and then convince people who've been turned off by the last three years to give you another chance. You also have to convince people to attend that haven't yet, either through not being convinced in the first place, or being put off by bad word of mouth.

Submitting a program of significant size and variety would certainly allow the 'Game Organizers' to request using "ribbons" as well tickets, or ribbons exclusively. With such a program in the book, there would tables pre-designated for that program the entire show, maybe not as many as desired (space issues will be a BIG issue the next 4 years), but as many as possible.
I can provide a great many details directly if you want to setup this type of thing.

I've got to be careful here. I DO NOT speak for Gen Con LLC, or any member of that company. I will say a few words expressing my own opinion however.

GB7 'ran' aboout 1/3 of the 1400 events in boardgames this past Indy. When any group dominates the program by that large a margin, they get noticed and dealt with according to the significance of thier contribution. They also are expected to perfom to a different level, one that I've been monitoring the last couple of years actually. I know they are not well liked by many for many reasons. I wasn't well liked when I assumed the role John held for years, I did things differently, still do, but that is another issue.

ANY group of significant program size gets noticed, TGA, Rogue Judges, A&A, and a few more draw attention without the negative feedback. Frankly I'd love to have another group doing a major selection of boardgames, one that would get the positive feedback GB7 does not.

Gen Con is not mired, just in transition and moving in small steps out of respect to the past when GB7 actually did a good job in the players eyes.

There is not an issue in what you want to do, just how. Submitting the event in a way that allows everyone to understand what your goal is would be hard part. You've only got a minimal amount of space for the description, that is what makes it a challenge. How do you say 'what' you have to teach and represent a large enough list to make it attractive to players in such a small space?

IF you could redirect players to website that lists everything you will have onhand to teach that works for those pre-reging' and for those onsite, they can just walk by. Just a thought.

I hope I did not contribute to 'outcast' felling, if so, I do appologize .

Wow!, ok. First, thanks for the wake up call regarding So Cal. I know that show has an entirely different set of issues, but was not so much aware of the perception problem. Been working on the mechanics first.

I know part of the problem is 'Boardgames' hasn't yet found a home, a stable location at the show. I know that Gen Con LLC is committed to making a better show each year, to staying the course in So Cal so long as it continues to grow, even marginally each year.

I'm going to need some time to fully digest your post before replying further.

I made a promise when I was asked to run BG's at GCI/GCSC, that was to make BG's the best run section of the show. Each year it gets better from the feedback I get of those attending and those I volunteer for. Looking at your note/letter, I'm no 100% sure I as a volunteer, even given the degree of trust they place in me can effect all of the changes your pointing at. especially not in just a few months, but, trust me to make sure the Programing folks know your feeling, since I cam sure your not the only one who feels like you.

Lee, I sent you a bgg mail. The new message counter has been disabled at the moment.

That's surprising to hear - in past years, there's been a lot of open space, and I've heard the convention described as 'cavernous'. Is there a big expected increase in attendance, or is the convention moving into a smaller part of the facility?



Great idea! I'll make it work out. I just wanted to ensure it wouldn't be a problem having games around to lend out, when GB7 or whoever does essentially the same thing. I'll submit event listings shortly...although that brings up another question. Since GenCon's reimbursement is based on # of players expected, what's a fair number of players to list for this event? I'd be prepared to handle anywhere between 2 and 50 players, I think!



Actually, you were very friendly! It was really nice to have a familiar face there, whether it was 10 at night or 9 in the morning. It wasn't anything specific, more just a feeling...like, players would often seem surprised when they asked me, 'so you don't work for Fantasy Flight?' And when people came by for my Robo Rally game, they were directed to the Wizards of the Coast rep. It's more just a matter of atmosphere, that the atmosphere of the board gaming section is more geared toward company demos and less toward independent GMs.

The space issues refer to GCI, not GCSC. I can tell you that the Mini's and BG areas are merging to some degree to make more effective use of tables for GCSC. I do not know where this will be yet. There will be a joint HQ dias, with Mini's on one side and BG's on the other most likely.

I know GB7 is planning a program for GCSC. I have not seen it yet however. Based on many of the comments I've seen posted, I'm getting the feeling that their presence is NOT wanted. If this is the case, I may be able to influence acceptance of their program, but not without something to replace it with.

In terms of tables at GCSC, if there were a local group (or BGG group) that wants to run a large number of events, there should be no difficulties in space, unless something is in the works I am not as yet aware of.

Lee, Geekmail sent in response to your last posting.

I'm not a spokesperson for Gamebase 7 but I am a former President. I currently have no standing on its elected board. I know it sounds weird saying this but its because for some things I will not have answers nor can I as I'm no longer always in the loop.

That said, I felt inclined to post here. I'm not going to sit here and defend Gamebase 7 and its actions. Some are indeed its own fault while others are not. And after working 3-4 years in the board game area for them, I've found sometimes things will go badly not by choice but because perfection just isn't possible.

Believe it or not, GB7 reads this stuff. We also talk to Gen Con quite a bit about the all the things you've mentioned. And while it may not show, they are indeed working to correct problems. It may not be at the speed you wish but it is happening.

So here's my pitch folks...

Rather than come here and complain, I was wondering if any of you and anyone else you know would like to help fix the problems you see and have with how we run things. The GB7 program is program created and run by gamers for other gamers. I think it would be welcome to having an influx of avid board gamers as yourselves be a part of things and helping enhance the experience for yourselves and others out there.

If you're interested, I'd suggest dropping by their yahoo group and letting them know.

http://games.groups.yahoo.com/group/GB7/

Thanks again and I hope you drop by.

Jeffrey L. Stein
Fmr. GB7 President

How many are you willing to prepare for? How many games will you be bringing? I expect you'd get something between 5 and 20 players at a time.

I'm going to check to see if you can run this with a ribbon good for the entire weekend. Probably something in the $6-7.50 range.

GB7 doesn't bring all that much to GCSC, the shipping costs are prohibitive for them. There shouldn;t be much, if any competition.

Lee

My .02,

The following is not meant to represent any sort of actualy forethought or planning, but a general statement of what I think could be done to make boardgaming at GCI and GCSC more "exciting".

I have been to GCI several times. I have not been to GCSC. Each time, the board game section seemed to be the 2nd class seating for the convention. To be fair, historical miniatures was 3rd class! Gen Con Indy seems to be owned by the CCG, CMG and GW players. Everyone else just kinda seems to slide in.

GB7 has always seemed like a somewhat organized Open Gaming area with a schedule. You can find most popular games there, but not necessarily with all the expansions. I have never had problems with GB7 directly, so I won't trash folks who put in great time and effort during a long weekend. At the same time, I do think there could be a lot MORE in boardgaming at GCI.

I will need to decide if GCI or GCSC are in the cards this coming year. If one or the other is, I would be more than happy to spend some extra dinero on a BGG open gaming type badge.

Alternatively, If we had enough people to run 8 events per day at 3 or 4 dedicated tables, with the understanding that the games are to be provided by the players, that would be OK as well. Personally, I would like to see a "heavier" game selection. Euro-Games are great for Cons. They run pretty fast, and usually are easy to learn. However, I'd like to actually play my Great Battles of History at least once or twice at a con.

I'd be willing to run a table or two for a half day, assuming I can get the funds together to go this year. And, even better, if GMT, AP, FF or The Gamers would put up a couple of decent prizes, I'd be good with running at least part of a tourney. Perhaps that is what is missing in Boardgames at GCI and GCSC, excitement!

I'll put out a generic question. Who would be interested in actually having an official tourney for a couple of different game, and if so, which companies/ games are the best candidates?

I'd like to see a Britannia Tournament, a GBoH tournament and just to feed the Euro crowd...I'd like to learn and play in a Pureto Rico Tourney. I am sure there are other games that would lend themselves well to a round robin or double elimination tournament. Feel free to add or modify ideas.

Hope my random ravings contain some workable ideas.

MadBrad

Hmm...I'm willing to bet that I can bring at least 30 different games. I can teach the rules to most games in about 10 minutes (enough to get started), and watch over/advise maybe 6-8 games at once, so I'd estimate I could handle up to 30 players. These numbers are all estimates, of course, and just what I think I can do alone. If more BGGers pitch in to make this a group project, we can do more.

My hope for GCSC is about 10 to 15 tables. I say this many since I know there will be overlap from each different 2 hour block, some games taking 4 hours, some 6, etc.

If you (and any other BGGer's) are willing to keep say 5 tables running most of the time, that would a fantastic small beginning to correcting the problems at GCSC. If there is a combined force large enough to keep 10 tables running, well, that surly exceeds what I would expect for a first year effort.

Things to keep in mind:
16 hours earns a free badge (actully a player hour thing, but use 16 hours for ease of calculating)
32 hours earns 1/4 a hotel room
Partial reimbursement can be arranged to cover lost pieces/parts

IF you want to use a 'ribbon' system, what is the max ribbons you would want sold? 15 tables=90 seats, and every ribbon holder would likely be there 100% of the time.

PM sent as well.

You definately don't want to oversell, but to forcast 100% presence is overkill. At Origns they sold 234 open gaming "boardroom" ribbons. The number of people in the room about 60 with a max of maybe 100 (but they had space for a tight 200).

[edit: George say 300 between this room and the wargame room. that seems high to me http://www.boardgamegeek.com/article/974733#974733 ]

Do you have ribbon and table count for Puffing Pilly events to forcast from?

OOOOOPPPPPPSS

Forgot a not in there.
"and every ribbon holder would likely NOT be 100% of the time"

Lee,

Mark from Dust Bunny Games, here.

Great to here from you on this forum. I thought the Indy Boardgame Hall ran smoothly the last 2 years. My experience running games at gen-con for the last ten years has been oveall favorable.

Craig Zipse and I were talking about an idea for next year. Will send you an e-mail about it sometime soon.

------artmark

PM sent

Lee, I was part of the BGG group who was bouncing around the GB7 area looking for open gaming space. I also attended Origins this year. Based on those experiences here is a list of my thoughts.

1. It was in no way clear that the smaller 500 Ballroom area was strictly for GB7 games.
2. If there was any plan by Gen Con to provide for open gaming in the game all I sure was not aware of it. It seemed logical that if you could rent games from the GB7 library that there must be places set aside for people to play them. Certainly with the number of games sold in the exhibitor hall, it would behoove Gen Con to have a place for folks to try out their new purchases.
3. I was told by a GB7 representative that the space provided for their library was not big enough and they had to leave some games boxed up.
4. The Board Room at Origins seems to be the ideal solution to me. I am more than willing to pay $15 to have a place to open game during the Con. That $15 also gave me access to check out games from the library. CABS had a really nice selection of games at Origins. I don't usually play scheduled events, but its not because I'm cheap. I just like to leave my options open as I bounce around between open gaming and the exhibitor hall.
5. With a set up similar to the Board Room at Origins, GB7 could man their game library and check for the open gaming ribbons or collect generic tickets for those just wanting to play a few games. They would not be expected to teach each game. CABS did have people on hand in the Origins Board Room who could teach some games, but it was not expected and probably 80-90% of the games were pick-up games where somebody already new the rules.
6. Having the designated open gaming area makes it quite easier to meet other BGG members or others you know for the online world.
7. I don't like the idea of open gaming being off site at a hotel. I like going back and forth from the exhibitor hall to the gaming areas. I realize with the construction that will be ongoing over the next 2-3 years that setting up a Board Game like room at a hotel might be the best we can do. However, if GB7 will man the library for an open-gaming room, as well as run events, I'm sure they would want those two things co-located.
8. I live in Indy, so I will likely always attend Gen Con, but the overall board gaming experience at Origins was better, if for no other reason than it was well advertised where the open gaming would be and what the costs would be. I didn't hear anyone complain about buying the $15 ribbon at Origins, although I am sure some folks balked at it. The Board Room was also a perfect venue for game designers to demo prototypes and get feedback from serious gamers.
9. I'm curious how the set up with the Puffing Billy folks work. I saw Puffing Billy ribbons. Did this grant them similar privileges to how the Board Room worked at Origins?
10. Thanks to listening to our ideas.

Jeff

Jeff,
Its important to note that the open gaming issue isn't the problem as much as the lack of space at GenCon. For instance at Origins their was an impromptu Wits n Wagers tournament in the CABS open gaming area. Was it a problem? No, because the CABS area used only about half the tables that were set up for it so it easily accommodated it. Likewise Lee has said that the area at GenCon was for open gaming if people rented or asked for space. If space would have been in excess his system would have worked too.

I agree with your other points (about better communication and ribbons in particular) but to compare it to cabs method isn't looking at all the factors.

Where would these places be? I live in Thousand Oaks, but I would travel 45 minutes for a good all-day gaming event. Gen-Con So. Cal is the first I've heard of in all my years in So. Cal so I'm giving it a try despite all the bad I've heard about it.

And in addition, I have several game prototypes that I'm looking into demoing at the show. My hope is to not have people have to pay to play - who wants to spend money on an unknown game (even if they are fun!) Any advice to what I should expect to expect or what to bring?