J C Lawrence
United States
Campbell
California
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Lemmi's (computer) moderator allows 18XX games to be played more quickly and easily than with the default game bits. Many consider that 18XX games, already great games, are far more enjoyable when using the moderator.
http://www.18xx.de/docu/18xx/dmain.htm (German language site)
In full flower the moderator abstracts out the money, company shares, charters and trains, leaving only the map, station markers and track tiles to still be handled by the players. Everything else is handled on the moderator. This can reduce play time and player confusion immensely while adding to the competitive enjoyment of the game. Just removing the money from 18XX games typically reduces the play time by more than an hour. Imagine what removing all the other bookeeping steps would also do!
Lemmi's moderator is difficult to learn for non-German readers -- the documentation is in German. Usually people are introduced to the moderator by someone who already knows it. As such many, most, 18XX players have never used Lemmi's moderator. This discussion is intended as an introduction, tutorial and general shared investigation on Lemmi's moderator.
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Paul Bravey
United Kingdom
Stafford
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I'm curious as to how it abstracts these. Does it actually abstract them through some magic formulas or does it just keep track of them for the players? I've not played any 18xx game in over 5 years just because it's difficult to get enough people to commit to the length of time it takes so this program sounds interesting.
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Ed Holzman
United States
Seffner
Florida
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Being somewhat proficient in German, the language barrier is not a huge hurdle for me. The fact that the moderator is a DOS application is. I have long felt that some ambitious soul needed to create a cross-platform moderator. At least one person (or group) is working on such a piece of software. There is a JAVA app named RAILS that looks promising.
http://sourceforge.net/projects/rails
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Ivan Hanley
Scotland
Glasgow
Strathclyde
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I am one of those people who would love to reduce the time taken to play 18XX games while not tinkering with the experience. This moderator looks great and even though it's a DOS program DosBox allows newer machines AND MAC's to run it no problem. DosBox can be found here:
http://dosbox.sourceforge.net/
I'm also one of those people who would find a written guide to installing and setting up the moderator very useful. I've downloaded the application so where do I go from here?
Ivan.
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John Elbl
United States
Roselle
Illinois
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I would also like to learn the moderator. I have 'played' with it a little, but would not feel comfortable running a game with it.
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J C Lawrence
United States
Campbell
California
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Sorry I haven't posted more data. Work has been crunching and my spare time is currently consumed with sleep and wishing I were asleep. Soon...
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Eric Landes
United States
Hillsboro
Oregon
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Having played in a grand total of a single game using the moderator, I have this to say about it, as a player:
I hated it. In fact, I detested, loathed, and despised it as well.
I had no feel for what was happening in the game. No quick way to tell which were undervalued companies.
In a stock round, instead of being able to think on someone else's turn, I had to wait around to get a look at the screen to see the state of things. While the moderator sped up the transfers of assets, it slowed down an individual players turn.
In ORs, instead of hearing who got how much for dividends, it just went "blip" and happened. Again, you needed to look at the screen to tell the situation.
Now, what WOULD work would be a 2-monitor setup where the person running the moderator was looking at whatever necessary to perform his tasks, and the stock market and holdings were displayed on the 2nd monitor, replacing the game components.
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J C Lawrence
United States
Campbell
California
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Basilius wrote: I had no feel for what was happening in the game. No quick way to tell which were undervalued companies.
In a stock round, instead of being able to think on someone else's turn, I had to wait around to get a look at the screen to see the state of things. While the moderator sped up the transfers of assets, it slowed down an individual players turn.
We play with a shared/common screen and one player handling data entry. This way all players can see the state of the game at all times. You can do profitable and informed thinking on your turn. All values are displayed. You see exactly how much cash is where, what trains, what tokens ar left, what the last payment was, turn order etc etc.
Quote: Now, what WOULD work would be a 2-monitor setup where the person running the moderator was looking at whatever necessary to perform his tasks, and the stock market and holdings were displayed on the 2nd monitor, replacing the game components.
This is exactly what we do, except that the same monitor is used for both. Typically this has been an LCD monitor which faces one side of the game board, but we've also used a laptop with a large screen and an external keyboard for the data-entry slave.
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Robert Taylor-Smith
Canada
High River
Alberta
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Unfortunately the moderator doesn't take into account Company money is only known to the President and not to other players in 1830, 1870, 1856. Plus the cash in intercompany transactions involving train sales are not public player knowledge (beyond the minimum $1) according to the rules. A key part of the game.
Hence it's flawed.
I agree with Eric's post above the graphic display hinders useful examination of the game status.
I see no need for this software in a face to face multiplayer boardgame. Moving around the pieces in a boardgame is part of the fun for me. Constant transactions of cash can be somewhat time consuming particularly in the late game but flipping poker chips or plugging computer keys also takes time, basically the same amount of time.
I'd suggest the best use for this software would be to redevelop it into it's own unique 18xx style computer game rather than try to adapt it as a electronic accessory to an existing boardgame. A DOS program isn't too useful in this day and age.
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J C Lawrence
United States
Campbell
California
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flapjackmachine wrote: Unfortunately the moderator doesn't take into account Company money is only known to the President and not to other players in 1830, 1870, 1856.
This is a small loss at best given that the only way for the corporate treasury to become unknown is inter-company train sales which are relatively rare. Sales are typically made either in order for the selling company to be able to buy a large(r) train with its consolidated cash, or to simply shuffle trains without regard for cash consolidation. In the first case you know exactly what the end-state is: as close as he can get to being able to afford a train. In the second case the end-state details are largely insignificant.
Quote: Hence it's flawed.
Every group I've played with (a dozen or so now) has played with open money for both players and companies.
Quote: I agree with Eric's post above the graphic display hinders useful examination of the game status.
You may like to note that Eric's complaint was for the specific case in which the screen was not always visible to all players, and that he specifically stated that making it always visible would solve his complaint. Given a shared screen, which is very easy to do (either bring an LCD in from home or turn the laptop so that everyone may see it and then use an external keyboard), results in one glance showing you everything, the entire off-board gamestate in one simple display.
Quote: I see no need for this software in a face to face multiplayer boardgame.
I generally refuse to play 18XX without it (which really limits my willingness to play unsupported 18XX).
Quote: Moving around the pieces in a boardgame is part of the fun for me.
With the moderator you still get to do that with the track and station markers.
Quote: Constant transactions of cash can be somewhat time consuming particularly in the late game but flipping poker chips or plugging computer keys also takes time, basically the same amount of time.
Factually and actually, no. Consider the following:
Player is running the TGV in 1856.
"I'll lay this track and pay $60 for the terrain,
then I'll run for...$83 and pay."
In a manual game the banker would have to:
a) Get $60 from the TGV's treasury.
b) Move the TGV right one.
c) Calculate the dividends for every
stockholder(usually three or four players
in the late game)
d) Pay every stockholder, probably including
making change/cashing up in the process.
Total time taken is usually around 1-2 minutes. With the moderator the same process consists of the following:
a) Track cost: $60 (this is a single
keystroke followed by "60" and ENTER).
b) Dividend $83 and pay (this is just
entering "83" and ENTER. To withhold
they'd hit the minus key before hitting
ENTER.
Done.
Total time taken is usually less than 2 seconds and you're already onto the next player/company.
Quote: I'd suggest the best use for this software would be to redevelop it into it's own unique 18xx style computer game rather than try to adapt it as a electronic accessory to an existing boardgame.
You might like to try it first before further dissing it.
Quote: A DOS program isn't too useful in this day and age.
It runs quite well under DOSBox under both Linux and Windows (the two platforms I've tried). As such it is entirely functional and in fact the text-only display has the advantage of being able to display more data more clearly and with greater density than a graphical display would.
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J C Lawrence
United States
Campbell
California
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Bugger. I forgot that work washed me away from this thread. Now I've left my latop at work. Crap. I'll make a strong note to get together with my laptop and some time and rekindle this little teaching exercise.
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Robert Taylor-Smith
Canada
High River
Alberta
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This indepth discussion of 18xx variants would be better on the Yahoo 18xx group rather than a Boardgamegeek review of Avalon Hill's 1830 published boardgame. The use of open money would be a variant version of 1830.
The Boardgamegeek readers now get the point that a few players like to use electronic aids and in-game record keeping notations when playing 1830. Also a few like to fiddle with the rules to suit their own playstyle.
Clearclaw's Boardgamegeek's Profile has a good description of his playstyle wishes which don't always jibe with published canon game rules.
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Björn Rabenstein
Germany
Berlin
Berlin
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I know the dicussion running in this thread only too well. Just a few observations:
- >90% of the players having played with the moderator >5 times AND having played without the moderator >5 times don't wanna play without the moderator whenever possible.
- >90% of the players disliking the moderator have played 5 times AND having played without the moderator >5 times thinks that the overview of the game state is much better with the moderator. In fact, those few disliking the moderator although they having played with it >5 times, dislike it because the overview is too good. Those players like the poker atmosphere, deceit, bluff, the secrecy - and of course secret money wherever possible.
Two other thing I would like to state here:
- A very important aspect of the speed-up the moderator provides is the clever chess-like clock. Each player gets additional time for each share round and each time he starts to operate a company (depending on the phase of the game, the type of the company, and the number of trains in the company). This has a huge impact in groups where people tend to think a long time, but even groups that are very disciplined about playing fast will be surprised how much faster everybody will play with a clock in their back (and finally everybody will start to think while the other players do their moves...). Of course the clock is just optional, but we always play at least with very moderate time pressure, which still allows a relaxed game. Similar to Chess or Go, it is fun to play "Blitz" games from time to time. Ever played 1835 in less than one hour? Perfectly possible, if everybody knows the game well.
- Regarding the "cultural" question board game vs. computer game: A very good point! Actually, I am quite sure that today, nobody would invent the 18xy (board) games if they would not exist already. A board-game designer would instantly discard the idea because it is too much computer-like. In the days 1829 was invented, computers were not available for everybody, complex computer games were not very common. So this was not an argument. Why not consider 18xy as a hybrid computer/board game from the present point of view? If I'm playing 18xy without a computer today, I am still thinking that it feels like a game that should have better be done as a computer game. Insisting that it is a board game, supposed to be played without a computer, does not help me in playing 18xy, but will just make me play other excellent board games that are "real" board games.
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J C Lawrence
United States
Campbell
California
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I'd also like to publicly thank Bjorn for introducing me to the moderator and teaching several of us how to use it. Right on mate! I hope Ireland is treating you well.
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Björn Rabenstein
Germany
Berlin
Berlin
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clearclaw wrote: I'd also like to publicly thank Bjorn for introducing me to the moderator and teaching several of us how to use it. Right on mate! I hope Ireland is treating you well.
Yeah - I planted the moderator virus in the far west...
Ireland is treating me well, indeed, although it seems pretty immune against the virus. Currently, I am playing much more non-18xy than 18xy.
Expect me back in the valley for one or two weeks in the first half of 2007!
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Michael Leuchtenburg
United States
Sunderland
Massachusetts
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Any chance of seeing a tutorial here? Or is there one somewhere else I can look at?
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I'm still tinkering with it, but here's what I've gleaned thus far.
1. To get it running in English, type 18XX -senglish (or hit f4 once it's loaded).
Anyone know how to choose between bidding, passing, or buying, at the private company auction? It doesn't respond to mouse clicks, arrow keys etc.
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Philip Johnson
United States
Camillus
New York
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My thoughts on the moderator:
English documentation is available at the 18xx Yahoo! Group. It is sparse, but enough to get going. It is also possible to generate a new library that the moderator uses, but in English. There are instructions in the helpfile at the Yahoo! Group for this.
I think the moderator is a wonderful help, but some find it hard to follow what is going on without the charters in front of them. I have played a F2F game of 1830 with it, and many "trial" games of 18AL and 1830 by myself, simulating the moves of all players. I found that once I got used to where everything was displayed on screen, I had no trouble tracking the in-game action.
Phil: I use left/right click for buy/bid. I'm sure there are keystrokes, but I haven't bothered finding them. I think space is pass, but I need to confirm that, as its been a month or so since I did most of my tinkering with the mod.
One gripe I have is that, unless players are familiar with the game, they WILL forget the special powers of the minors. This info isn't in the moderator, and honestly there's no place for it. If you're learning a new 18xx you probably still need the private companies in front of you, and even then, once you sell them to your public companies you'll have to correlate a number with a specific private, and then figure out which company you sold it to. Not a dealbreaker, but annoying nonetheless.
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IcemanCU wrote: Phil: I use left/right click for buy/bid. I'm sure there are keystrokes, but I haven't bothered finding them. I think space is pass, but I need to confirm that, as its been a month or so since I did most of my tinkering with the mod.
Thanks, I'll give it a try! I can confirm that space is indeed pass.
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Lou Seelbach
United States
Huntington
West Virginia
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Bearcat89 wrote: Being somewhat proficient in German, the language barrier is not a huge hurdle for me. The fact that the moderator is a DOS application is. I have long felt that some ambitious soul needed to create a cross-platform moderator. At least one person (or group) is working on such a piece of software. There is a JAVA app named RAILS that looks promising. http://sourceforge.net/projects/rails
Thanks Ed. That moderator is PERFECT for 18AL. It still needs some work for the other 18xx's it supports, but next time I play 18AL (probably this Thursday) I'll use the RAILS moderator for sure.
-Lou
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Mike Bazynski
Poland
warsaw
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does anybody know what to do with the .cfg files from the yahoo group?
I ran 18config, but it seems it builds the 18xx.18l file with only the games that are in the main 18gx package, and not the many others like 1824 or 18scan that have their .cfg files.
how do I build all the different games that seem to be available?
another question - how do I buy a certificate of companies that don't fit on the screen? in 1844 there are too many companies to fit. is it a case of forcing dosbox to run in a wider screen?
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I just recently got into 18xx. Right after my first play (homemade 18AL with 4) I thought that it would be great to handle all of the bookkeeping stuff via PC. I was sure right then that some clever dude might thought about that a long time ago and made a program for it. Next day i did a little research and found the 18xx yahoo group and Lemmis moderator. From that point on I´ve now played around 10 games of 18xx (AL, 1853, sure not the best games but availability is a problem, a couple days ago I recieved 1860, and I´m looking very much forward to my first play of it) all using Lemmis moderator.
I don´t see how anyone would not want to play with it. It is a great tool that is constantly updated through the 18xx yahoo group for newer games. Just get DosBox and if you can´t handle that get a GUI like Dapplegray (Mac user here, but there are lots of options for every platform). I can handle DosBox but something like Dapplegray makes it easier to keep different configurations for different programs (such as the 1830 Dos game for example). In Dapplegray just add and run the 18xconfig.exe out of the 18xx-2008c.zip file you got from the yahoo group or Lemmis site. Then add 18xx.exe to Dapplegray and run it (like in windows just right klick->open with-> Dapplegray. You then get the option to just run 18xx.exe or add it first. Of course it´s better to add it because Dapplegray will then remember all of the settings you make like scaling etc.). Pick the game you have lying in front of you, type in the player names and you´re good to go.
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Chester Ogborn
United States
Albuquerque
New Mexico
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Fidel77 wrote: I just recently got into 18xx. Right after my first play (homemade 18AL with 4) I thought that it would be great to handle all of the bookkeeping stuff via PC. I was sure right then that some clever dude might thought about that a long time ago and made a program for it. Next day i did a little research and found the 18xx yahoo group and Lemmis moderator. From that point on I´ve now played around 10 games of 18xx (AL, 1853, sure not the best games but availability is a problem, a couple days ago I recieved 1860, and I´m looking very much forward to my first play of it) all using Lemmis moderator.
I don´t see how anyone would not want to play with it. It is a great tool that is constantly updated through the 18xx yahoo group for newer games. Just get DosBox and if you can´t handle that get a GUI like Dapplegray (Mac user here, but there are lots of options for every platform). I can handle DosBox but something like Dapplegray makes it easier to keep different configurations for different programs (such as the 1830 Dos game for example). In Dapplegray just add and run the 18xconfig.exe out of the 18xx-2008c.zip file you got from the yahoo group or Lemmis site. Then add 18xx.exe to Dapplegray and run it (like in windows just right klick->open with-> Dapplegray. You then get the option to just run 18xx.exe or add it first. Of course it´s better to add it because Dapplegray will then remember all of the settings you make like scaling etc.). Pick the game you have lying in front of you, type in the player names and you´re good to go.
Lotta words in there that made no sense to me.
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cornjob wrote: Fidel77 wrote: I just recently got into 18xx. Right after my first play (homemade 18AL with 4) I thought that it would be great to handle all of the bookkeeping stuff via PC. I was sure right then that some clever dude might thought about that a long time ago and made a program for it. Next day i did a little research and found the 18xx yahoo group and Lemmis moderator. From that point on I´ve now played around 10 games of 18xx (AL, 1853, sure not the best games but availability is a problem, a couple days ago I recieved 1860, and I´m looking very much forward to my first play of it) all using Lemmis moderator.
I don´t see how anyone would not want to play with it. It is a great tool that is constantly updated through the 18xx yahoo group for newer games. Just get DosBox and if you can´t handle that get a GUI like Dapplegray (Mac user here, but there are lots of options for every platform). I can handle DosBox but something like Dapplegray makes it easier to keep different configurations for different programs (such as the 1830 Dos game for example). In Dapplegray just add and run the 18xconfig.exe out of the 18xx-2008c.zip file you got from the yahoo group or Lemmis site. Then add 18xx.exe to Dapplegray and run it (like in windows just right klick->open with-> Dapplegray. You then get the option to just run 18xx.exe or add it first. Of course it´s better to add it because Dapplegray will then remember all of the settings you make like scaling etc.). Pick the game you have lying in front of you, type in the player names and you´re good to go. Lotta words in there that made no sense to me.
Like?
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Chester Ogborn
United States
Albuquerque
New Mexico
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Fidel77 wrote: cornjob wrote: Fidel77 wrote: I just recently got into 18xx. Right after my first play (homemade 18AL with 4) I thought that it would be great to handle all of the bookkeeping stuff via PC. I was sure right then that some clever dude might thought about that a long time ago and made a program for it. Next day i did a little research and found the 18xx yahoo group and Lemmis moderator. From that point on I´ve now played around 10 games of 18xx (AL, 1853, sure not the best games but availability is a problem, a couple days ago I recieved 1860, and I´m looking very much forward to my first play of it) all using Lemmis moderator.
I don´t see how anyone would not want to play with it. It is a great tool that is constantly updated through the 18xx yahoo group for newer games. Just get DosBox and if you can´t handle that get a GUI like Dapplegray (Mac user here, but there are lots of options for every platform). I can handle DosBox but something like Dapplegray makes it easier to keep different configurations for different programs (such as the 1830 Dos game for example). In Dapplegray just add and run the 18xconfig.exe out of the 18xx-2008c.zip file you got from the yahoo group or Lemmis site. Then add 18xx.exe to Dapplegray and run it (like in windows just right klick->open with-> Dapplegray. You then get the option to just run 18xx.exe or add it first. Of course it´s better to add it because Dapplegray will then remember all of the settings you make like scaling etc.). Pick the game you have lying in front of you, type in the player names and you´re good to go. Lotta words in there that made no sense to me. Like?
Its alright as I don't have a need to use this, but are you saying Lemmi's Moderator has to run in DOS?
If I'm playing face to face at a table, does it add anything that I can't easily do with a laptop and spreadsheet? (Assuming track lays and rules enforcement is easily done on the table)
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Posted Mon Aug 21, 2006 7:49 pm
