Get up, get up, get up, get down, fall over.
United Kingdom
Bolton
Lancashire
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"Profits turn out to be fantasy as Games Workshop issues warning"
http://business.guardian.co.uk/story/0,,1983797,00.html
Can't say I'm desperately worried but...
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Robert Wesley
Nepal
Aberdeen
Washington
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 gee, maybe they ought to have SOLD off another entire "set" of their 'minis' line, in order to bring this UP and get them over their "slump" eh?
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Ubergeek
United States
Camas
Washington
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I'm sure they'll just release a Talisman 4th Edition "Big Box" version with everything in it for a low retail price of $899.
That will return them to higher profitability.
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Thomas Eager
United States
Portland
Oregon
This Space for Rent
Hassan CHOP!
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They cut their own throats by failing to discern the attitudes of their customers. Continual re-issues of rules while forcing players to constantly re-purchase and re-paint their models is no way to make friends with the minis crowd, not to mention abandoning the games they actually got right the first time! I'm currently liquidating most of my 40K stuff and shifting over to Flames of War.
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Alexander Rosenthal
United States
Minneapolis
Minnesota
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Well, I wouldn't go about picking apart the corpse just yet. If you read the article it just says that profits are less than expected as a result of the loss of the LOTR market. It seems as though the core business itself is still sound, though, as sales in North America are still growing. So it's not so much that they are failing, it's just that they aren't doing as spectacularly well as they were in the days of the LOTR movies.
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Rolling bad dice in wargames since 1977
United States
Austin
Texas
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Wow. That whole article reads like something out of the Onion.
LOTR might have been a huge seller for them if they had developed a quick and fun set of rules that people could figure out on their own and sold figs (maybe even pre-paints) that folks could afford.
All of their movie-themed sets were sold with a thick rulebook and a batch of plastic figs (that you had to assemble and paint yourself) and NO HEROES FROM THE FILMS for $40. You have to purchase the heroes in another package and that ran $40, too. So. For US$80, you got about 50 pieces that had to be hand assembled and painted. Almost no terrain. And a hefty rulebook that I'll bet few parents would help their kids learn.
Compare this to a game like BattleLore that that has over 200 pre-assembled and stickered figurines, an easy-to-learn set of rules (at least by comparison), all the terrain you need on a mounted map, and all the conceivable player aids you need to play the game for just $70.
They got me for a bunch of figs during and after the movies, but there's not much left that interests me now. And I doubt my spending made up for the folks they were hoping to reach.
I wish them well, but I hope we see a change in the sorts of games that they produce so that hearts are won as well as wallets.
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Scott Muldoon (silentdibs)
United States
Astoria
New York
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BradyLS wrote: you got about 50 pieces that had to be hand assembled and painted.
To be fair, it is the GW position that assembling and painting figures is an important and fun part of the miniatures hobby. I know many who would agree.
And since their slash-and-burn tactics have worked well for them for over twenty years, I doubt we'll see a sudden about-face anytime soon.
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JC Connors
United States
Redmond
Washington
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BradyLS wrote: Wow. That whole article reads like something out of the Onion.
All of their movie-themed sets were sold with a thick rulebook and a batch of plastic figs (that you had to assemble and paint yourself) and NO HEROES FROM THE FILMS for $40. You have to purchase the heroes in another package and that ran $40, too. So. For US$80, you got about 50 pieces that had to be hand assembled and painted. Almost no terrain. And a hefty rulebook that I'll bet few parents would help their kids learn.
Compare this to a game like BattleLore that that has over 200 pre-assembled and stickered figurines, an easy-to-learn set of rules (at least by comparison), all the terrain you need on a mounted map, and all the conceivable player aids you need to play the game for just $70.
Not a totally fair comparison, since BattleLore is about 2 weeks old while the first Rings game came out ~4 years ago now.
The fairly-recent Mines of Moria boxset comes with everything you need to play for about $45 (including terrain and about 35 minis, including all the Fellowship, goblins, and a cool cave troll). Granted, that would have made a WAY better starter kit 4 years ago, but it's fairly comparable to 90% of the boardgames out there.
LotR stuff just isn't going to sell all that well without movies to back it up. EA just cancelled the latest videogame, the collectible miniatures game and RPGs died a while back, and Rings-based boardgames have slowed to a trickle to what they once were. It's not terribly surprising, really.
(And here I'll just rant that GW should release some more standalone games, since even people who generally enjoy their stuff can't always spend the time and/or money to invest in something as daunting and large as 40k!)
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Rage is just love with more volume
United States
White Trash
Idaho
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Alex is right, GW isn't falling apart. But contrasting a 4% gain against the spectacular 15-25% growth rates during the LOTR era and eras before that it's easy to see they are jockeying for a position behind the 8-ball.
Warmachine is hammering the hell out of GW in the USA and perhaps in other places as well. It's fresh and it's a much better and faster-playing system. On top of that, the miniatures are outstanding.
GW has always stressed the Hobby Game aspect of their business and that's how they are positioned. Personally, I think the Hobby Game genre is on the wan, perhaps permanently... much like hex & counter war games... destined for a thriving, but small niche of fans. GW will likely counter flagging sales and interest by eventually entering the pre-painted plastic miniature market. That one has more potential for growth.
GW operates like the comic book market... they have new releases every week and their strategy is to keep players coming into the GW stores and Rogue Trader stores on a weekly basis to buy and play. Works too. Well, not as well as it did, but it certainly lofted them to the #1 position for many years. Back in the late 90's they were selling more dollars in WH and 40K than WotC was in CCG's and that's saying a lot.
Everybody falls...
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Rolling bad dice in wargames since 1977
United States
Austin
Texas
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thalcos wrote: BradyLS wrote: Wow. That whole article reads like something out of the Onion.
All of their movie-themed sets were sold with a thick rulebook and a batch of plastic figs (that you had to assemble and paint yourself) and NO HEROES FROM THE FILMS for $40. You have to purchase the heroes in another package and that ran $40, too. So. For US$80, you got about 50 pieces that had to be hand assembled and painted. Almost no terrain. And a hefty rulebook that I'll bet few parents would help their kids learn.
Compare this to a game like BattleLore that that has over 200 pre-assembled and stickered figurines, an easy-to-learn set of rules (at least by comparison), all the terrain you need on a mounted map, and all the conceivable player aids you need to play the game for just $70. Not a totally fair comparison, since BattleLore is about 2 weeks old while the first Rings game came out ~4 years ago now.
I think it's pretty fair. LOTR is an on-going property that's been around since Bakshi's movie. The books continue to sell and are loved by millions. DVDs of the movies still sell, I'm sure. "Something" about LOTR sells and (a segment of) our niche finds that part of it are the skirmishes and battles found in the books and films. But what is it about the GWs license that causes their game to die while LOTR lives on?
But I was comparing what a conusmer receives for their 2007 dollar with BL vs. what a 2002 consumer received for their dollars with GW LOTR. While BattleLore itself is 2 months old, comparable games by the same designer have been around since 2000. As sporadic and furtive as it may seem, these battle games are finding an audience at a time when an established license with a tested model for play (flawed, IMO), promotion, and sales is called "a hangover" by The Guardian.
Quote: The fairly-recent Mines of Moria boxset comes with everything you need to play for about $45 (including terrain and about 35 minis, including all the Fellowship, goblins, and a cool cave troll). Granted, that would have made a WAY better starter kit 4 years ago, but it's fairly comparable to 90% of the boardgames out there.
I think you make my point. Folks want what's in the movie in a movie-themed gamed. Selling the game without the heroes and making it difficult to play as illustrated hurt them, I bet. If support from the movies is what drives the game, a Moria themed compounded their error (because there was no movie to drive it). I don't believe this, personally. I agree that the Moria kit was the one to sell back in 2001.
Quote: LotR stuff just isn't going to sell all that well without movies to back it up. EA just cancelled the latest videogame, the collectible miniatures game and RPGs died a while back, and Rings-based boardgames have slowed to a trickle to what they once were. It's not terribly surprising, really.
Hmm. My apologies to you in advance for sounding snarky, but I guess that makes George Lucas a genius. How does his licensed stuff continue to sell? What are Star Wars licensees doing or have that LOTR license holders don't?
Quote: (And here I'll just rant that GW should release some more standalone games, since even people who generally enjoy their stuff can't always spend the time and/or money to invest in something as daunting and large as 40k!)
I agree! I think their WHFB/WH40K approach to LOTR is what hurt them. It may work for a niche but not for the mass-market--if licensing is too steep.
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Rolling bad dice in wargames since 1977
United States
Austin
Texas
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sdiberar wrote: BradyLS wrote: you got about 50 pieces that had to be hand assembled and painted.
To be fair, it is the GW position that assembling and painting figures is an important and fun part of the miniatures hobby. I know many who would agree.
It can be fun, I'll agree. But that sort of hobby and fun isn't embraced by a mass-market. I have plenty of anecdotes about folks that wanted a LOTR game but didn't want to build and paint it, too. I suppose the Sabertooth game should have flourished since it was pre-painted and "clicky," but that withered on the vine as well. (That one was collectible, wasn't it?)
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Loomis
United States
Akron
Ohio
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Maybe if they didn't have their bizarre and invasive retail business model, well then maybe they could actually succeed. I personally know several retailers who simply refuse to carry their products as a result. I can only wish GW a slow and painful demise.
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anthony dawson
United Kingdom
swindon
wiltshire
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Don't forget the LOTR requires extortionate licensing fees also so they had to sell the associated games either at above their usual pricepoint or with less in the box to increase margins. You are of course correct about their business model being exploitatory but that is how businesses run. Most of the smaller companies can only dream of the kind of international turnover these guys generate. You don't think starbucks got to where it is by charging reasonable prices and paying it's staff well do you?
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Kreisler Buy
Malaysia
Unspecified
Unspecified
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The Inquisition and the Emperor deems the author of the article a heretic.
To further promote the article entry, or to question the will of the emperor, is to embrace heresy.
GW made my Space Hulk set .. obsolete. Damn them.
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The Grouch
United States
Tucson
Arizona
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DWTripp wrote: GW operates like the comic book market... they have new releases every week and their strategy is to keep players coming into the GW stores and Rogue Trader stores on a weekly basis to buy and play. Works too. Well, not as well as it did, but it certainly lofted them to the #1 position for many years. Back in the late 90's they were selling more dollars in WH and 40K than WotC was in CCG's and that's saying a lot.
Everybody falls...
Yeah, but what of our FLGSes that has bought into the GW marketing strategy? Will they go down with it? That would be the REAL tragedy!
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Rich P
Colombia
Sheffield
United Kingdom
I didn't know what to do with my UberBadge, so I left it as a GeekBadge.
I'm on a world tour right now, with limited access to BGG. My microbadges will spell out where I am at the moment.
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This is becoming an annual feature of GW: the same thing happened last year.
Chairman's statement available here:
http://investor.games-workshop.com/investor_relations/financ...
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Ted Kowalczyk
United States
Somonauk
Illinois
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GW will be around for a while as long as people are willing to pay the price to play and since they offer the most accessable player base(you can always find a game going on at their stores)there will be people wanting to play. LOTR is losing its sales strength because whats coming out now was not in the movie(as well as the movies being concluded). Being a great fan of the movies I just didn't have the will power to resist LOTR.
 As a player of many mini's games I have to draw the line somewhere on this stuff and for LOTR it was "if its not in the movie, I don't want it" And I'm sure alot of others feel similarly I've even spoken to some GW people who game LOTR and they aren't particlarly interested in this additional stuff either. But mostly GW's pricing has turned me off of their line. I've sold all my fantasy stuff and all the 40k except for Battle for McCragge related stuff. I still have Warmaster and LOTR. But now I prefer skimish sized fantasy mini games and have found the near perfect game, Confrontation, and in the end this is all I really need
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Virre Linwendil "Now go look at my photos and thumbs the once you like" Annergård
Sweden
Stockholm
Forza Bajen!
... and still sober
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Walt Mulder wrote: I'm sure they'll just release a Talisman 4th Edition "Big Box" version with everything in it for a low retail price of $899. That will return them to higher profitability.
ummm http://www.blackindustries.com/?template=BI&content=newslist...
... oh and the two forum posts on it ...
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Michael Barnes
United States
Decatur
Georgia
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At my shop, I had a hard time moving GW products- even people who had never played either knew about GW's reputation or assumed that WH/WH40K was a hobby for the very wealthy (like Robin Williams or this Tactfully Unnamed Rock Star that used to frequent my place). But the games like Warmachine (much less expensive, more accessible, in-store support, and larger player) and Confrontation (much better sculpts bar-none) practically flew off the shelves.
I've mentioned it around here before, but I had the privilege once of meeting one of the higher-ups from GW's UK offices...he visited my store and I talked to him for a couple of hours. Nice guy and all, but it was very illuminating as it showed how narrow GW's business model is and how it's built on little more than believe that hubris- the belief that they're the only hobby game in town, so to speak. When I told him that 40K sales had dropped drastically because of Warmachine and its accessibility and lower price point his suggested response was to order more "Battle for Macragge" starter sets- although I had 2 sitting on the shelf that hadn't sold in a year. He had never even heard of Confrontation. Suits.
I mean come on, they shut down their own forums because even their fanboys are calling them out on things now...remember this is a company that had the brilliant idea to put sand in a bag and stick a GW card on it and charge $15 retail for it. At some point, that's got to catch up to them.
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Rage is just love with more volume
United States
White Trash
Idaho
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loomis wrote: Maybe if they didn't have their bizarre and invasive retail business model, well then maybe they could actually succeed. I personally know several retailers who simply refuse to carry their products as a result. I can only wish GW a slow and painful demise.
Few have been more successful than GW. These guys have been on the map for over 30 years. Go back and read the article the OP linked to. You'll notice the numbers quoted are in the millions of pounds... do the math. These guys are a 500 lb. gorilla.
To a great extent it was the success of GW in the USA, UK and Europe that made local stores enough money to broaden their scope and start carrying more than RPG's and war games. My little store in SW Idaho was selling in excess of $100,000 per year of GW products all through the 90's and into the early years of this decade. GW profits allowed me to invest heavily in MTG, it allowed me to increase my board game selection by 200% after the introduction of SoC and a few other popular Euro titles in the 90's. GW is probably the single most successful game publisher of the last 30 years. Their numbers are astounding, they eclipsed TSR even in it's heydey and the CEO of WotC told me in 1996 that GW had numbers he aspired to.
How can you be more successful than that? Yes, they have an irritating way of doing business... but once a retailer understands the level of commitment needed to succeed with their products the only reason NOT to carry the line is that you don't like money and would prefer to limp along and get sympathy from others who don't like money.
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Christopher Dearlove
United Kingdom
Chelmsford
Essex
SoRCon 5 2-4 Feb 2012 http://www.sorcon.co.uk
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crackedlcd81 wrote: the belief that they're the only hobby game in town
In many towns in the UK - including the one I live in - they literally are.
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Thom Hall
United States
Santa Clara
California
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kreisler wrote: The Inquisition and the Emperor deems the author of the article a heretic. To further promote the article entry, or to question the will of the emperor, is to embrace heresy. GW made my Space Hulk set .. obsolete. Damn them.
That's funny, my sets still seem to work just fine and I have two different editions 
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daniel silverthorne
United States
San Jose
California
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skars wrote: kreisler wrote: The Inquisition and the Emperor deems the author of the article a heretic. To further promote the article entry, or to question the will of the emperor, is to embrace heresy. GW made my Space Hulk set .. obsolete. Damn them. That's funny, my sets still seem to work just fine and I have two different editions
Its a love/hate thing. As quoted above my friends and I still play Space Hulk with out any problems, just getting more minis is hard. GW makes great minis and heck they created Blood bowl..come on no one has been able to top a fantasy football game, though i believe Dragon magazine had an article and rules for one before GW. I will never wish the demise of a game company so i hope they just change their Business Plan.
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Kreisler Buy
Malaysia
Unspecified
Unspecified
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mexilplif wrote: skars wrote: kreisler wrote: The Inquisition and the Emperor deems the author of the article a heretic. To further promote the article entry, or to question the will of the emperor, is to embrace heresy. GW made my Space Hulk set .. obsolete. Damn them. That's funny, my sets still seem to work just fine and I have two different editions Its a love/hate thing. As quoted above my friends and I still play Space Hulk with out any problems, just getting more minis is hard. GW makes great minis and heck they created Blood bowl..come on no one has been able to top a fantasy football game, though i believe Dragon magazine had an article and rules for one before GW. I will never wish the demise of a game company so i hope they just change their Business Plan.
I was hoping they made some expansions for it. Like the 1st edition, they had Deathwing and Genestealers. The 2nd had ... nothing. Other than some cardboard pullouts in the White Dwarf, nothing much of it. 
What they have done to Space Hulk is beyond sin, it's HERESY!!
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Antonio Chavez
United States
Laredo
Texas
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crackedlcd81 wrote: ...remember this is a company that had the brilliant idea to put sand in a bag and stick a GW card on it and charge $15 retail for it. At some point, that's got to catch up to them.
Man, that sounds like a tasty story, and one that I (and, dare I speculate, many of us) do not know about. Would you mind sharing?
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