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Subject: Evolution, religion, US and Europe rss

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Snoo Py
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Please, could someone answer to this:
why is the church opposing the evolution theory in the U.S. but not in Europe????

For me this is a complete mystery, I have no idea why is it like this.
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vincit omnia amentia
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I'm pretty sure the Catholic Church, at least last I heard and I do go to a Jesuit University, is ambivalent to evolution. The Augustinian strain in the Catholic Church has always (ialways in logical times) allowed for a metaphorical view of the bible, at least of Genesis.

I highly doubt any of my professors, even the priests, would oppose evolution. Even the most conservative theology professor I know bears no ill will towards it.

Where do you hear the Church opposes evolution?
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Based upon my poor understanding of history, science, and ethics...
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Isn't this topic getting old?

As for "the church", there is no "the church". You can probably find a denomination that will suit most any view of the Bible.

The same denomination of church will vary in its views from country to country or region to region.
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Steven Johnson
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Define "the church". That covers a lot of territory.

Among conservative evangelicals (of which I am a minster) that accept the Bible as literal truth, there is the understanding that theories of macro evolution are diametricly opposed to the Biblical history of creation.

From a secular view, there is considerable evidence refuting evolution as a psuedo-scientific theory.
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Marshall P.
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"Nothing in Biology Makes Sense Except in the Light of Evolution" - Theodosius Dobzhansky
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There is grandeur in this view of life, whilst this planet has gone cycling on according to the fixed law of gravity, from so simple a beginning endless forms most beautiful and most wonderful have been, and are being, evolved.
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rsjrev wrote:

From a secular view, there is considerable evidence refuting evolution as a psuedo-scientific theory.


No there's not.
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Marc P
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mdp4828 wrote:
rsjrev wrote:

From a secular view, there is considerable evidence refuting evolution as a psuedo-scientific theory.


No there's not.


*sigh*

Here we go again. I know I could just not click on this thread ever again, but Mr. Cranky might show up, and I'd hate to miss that.

But thanks, Marshall, for keeping these discussions reasonable and sane. Seeing as you're from Kansas and all, I'm sure the topic hits close to home.

And Bagpipe Dan has it right...the Catholic church is pretty much 'wait and see' about evolution, and most priests I've spoken with on the matter regard much of Genesis as myth (meaning it's true, but not literally). Since church doctrine is fairly tightly controlled by Rome, it's unlikely that there would be much difference in the official stance here in the states.

There are several Protestant denominations, in Europe as well as the US, who literally interpret Genesis. Unless they're on my state's school board, or in charge of my nation's science policy, they affect me not at all. I don't know what the Mormons have to say on the matter.
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Virre Linwendil Annergård
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as the discusion whats true or not not about evolution will never be able to be reasoned if people have faith involved. If your faith is challenged of 'course you will say anything to protect it, including coming up with "science" to protect it. That nullifies any try to have a good disucsion about it.

The church in Europe is diffred, as there really is a lot of diffrent views in diffrent countriess and churches (well that what I heard anyway). To not speak about the amount of , well according to my lexicon "Free Church, nonconformist church" ,that at least in Sweden don't like the evolution.
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Louise Holden
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The Archbishop of Canterbury, who is the leader of the Church of England, which is the established church in England and Wales, expressed his views here http://education.guardian.co.uk/schools/story/0,,1735731,00....

Briefly, he considers that to teach creationism as a theory like scientific theories is a category mistake. "Creationism can end up reducing the doctrine of creation". Therefore creationism should not be taught in schools.

I think this translates to "nothing in the Bible is actually wrong but it is not a description of what happened in the same way as evolution is a description- so you can believe in both."

Me, I'm still waiting for the evidence on the Bible, but evolution seems to be pretty much spot on.
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Steven Johnson
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mdp4828 wrote:
rsjrev wrote:

From a secular view, there is considerable evidence refuting evolution as a psuedo-scientific theory.


No there's not.


Ah, the open mind strikes again. In the Dark Ages, you'd have been a priest burning heretics.

Simple test: Take any paragraph, replace "evolution" or "selection" with "nature" or "god". This is an easy demonstration that modern evolution is faith based, not a proper application of scientific theory.
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Steven Johnson
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virre wrote:
as the discusion whats true or not not about evolution will never be able to be reasoned if people have faith involved. If your faith is challenged of 'course you will say anything to protect it, including coming up with "science" to protect it. That nullifies any try to have a good disucsion about it.


An honest discussion must fairly define terms. Proponents of evolution define it as science, and everything else as faith. This ignores the basic fact that evolution, stripped of the techno-babble, is based on faith, not scientific experimentation.

Valid evidence of change within species is presented, then a leap of faith is made to apply claim that cross species or "macro evolution" is proven. That's faith, my friend, not science.
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Gerald M. Zabos
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Joe Cool wrote:
Please, could someone answer to this:
why is the church opposing the evolution theory in the U.S. but not in Europe????

For me this is a complete mystery, I have no idea why is it like this.


You're right, Europes creationism movement is quite small. Maybe thats a result to things like The French Revolution (1789), social and cultural structures since then, which is known to historians as "The Age of Enlightenment". This had some effect on people and their will to think more in science than in stuff they read in a book, which is verbalized spongy.
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Marshall P.
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"Nothing in Biology Makes Sense Except in the Light of Evolution" - Theodosius Dobzhansky
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There is grandeur in this view of life, whilst this planet has gone cycling on according to the fixed law of gravity, from so simple a beginning endless forms most beautiful and most wonderful have been, and are being, evolved.
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rsjrev wrote:

Ah, the open mind strikes again. In the Dark Ages, you'd have been a priest burning heretics.


Are you sure you don't have our roles reversed in this scenario?

rsjrev wrote:
Simple test: Take any paragraph, replace "evolution" or "selection" with "nature" or "god". This is an easy demonstration that modern evolution is faith based, not a proper application of scientific theory.


I'll accept that challenge. I'll use two paragraphs, first the definition of Evolution from the American Heritage dictionary, and second a paragraph from the Origin of Species in which Darwin gives a brief summary of his theory.

Dictionary wrote:
Evolution (n) - Change in the genetic composition of a population during successive generations, as a result of natural selection acting on the genetic variation among individuals, and resulting in the development of new species.


Not the best definition maybe but it'll work. Now let's replace natural selection with God per your test.

Dictionary Modified wrote:
Evolution (n) - Change in the genetic composition of a population during successive generations, as a result of God acting on the genetic variation among individuals, and resulting in the development of new species.


Do you see the difference? The first definition actually explains why the genetic composition of a population changes (look up the definition of natural selection if you need to). The second definition just says Goddidit. But how did God do it? Did He stick His finger into the cell nucleus during mitosis and direct the chromosomes to where He wanted them to go? Then did He make sure the female ovulated the egg cell with the chromosomes that He wanted in the next generation? And did he also make sure that the sperm cell He wanted was the one that found the egg? Even if that were true how would we test that scientifically? How do we create a control group that excludes God? Do we put a sign on the bedroom door while our test subjects are copulating that says "God STAY OUT"?

Origin of Species wrote:
As many more individuals of each species are born than can possibly survive; and as, consequently, there is a frequently recurring struggle for existence, it follows that any being, if it vary however slightly in any manner profitable to itself, under the complex and sometimes varying conditions of life, will have a better chance of surviving, and thus be naturally selected. From the strong principle of inheritance, any selected variety will tend to propagate its new and modified form.


Let's see, we're supposed to replace selection or natural selection with "nature" or "God" but it's hard to see how to do it in this case and keep any meaning. Maybe the problem is that select is a verb but nature and God are nouns. So I think we need the verb equivalent of "nature" or "God". You can supply that word if you want but in the mean time I'm going to use "create", that seems like a pretty reasonable choice I'm sure you'll agree.

Origin of Species Modified wrote:
As many more individuals of each species are born than can possibly survive; and as, consequently, there is a frequently recurring struggle for existence, it follows that any being, if it vary however slightly in any manner profitable to itself, under the complex and sometimes varying conditions of life, will have a better chance of surviving, and thus be created. From the strong principle of inheritance, any created variety will tend to propagate its new and modified form.


It should be clear that substituting "created" into the paragraph breaks the logic of the argument. We went from a valid logical argument to an invalid (or at best nonsensical) one. So no, I don't think this simple word swap experiment demonstrates that evolution is faith based.
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J
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rsjrev wrote:
Ah, the open mind strikes again. In the Dark Ages, you'd have been a priest burning heretics.


actually he probably would have been one that was burned, right marshall?
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Steven Johnson
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jmilum wrote:
rsjrev wrote:
Ah, the open mind strikes again. In the Dark Ages, you'd have been a priest burning heretics.


actually he probably would have been one that was burned, right marshall?


No, the folks who challenge the political power suffered, as they do today.

In academia, the evolution proponents are in charge, and they ruthlessly oppress anyone who suggests the emperor is naked. They are driving that same oppression into politics. How dare anyone suggest an alternative theory? To even state the obvious fact that evolution is theory, not proven fact, is grounds for discipline and termination of tenure.
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Gerald M. Zabos
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rsjrev wrote:

Ah, the open mind strikes again. In the Dark Ages, you'd have been a priest burning heretics.


Forgive me my humble opinion, but i think in the Dark Ages he had been the heretic, while you had been the guy lighting the torch.
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Chapel
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Please reference:

http://www.boardgamegeek.com/thread/144406
http://www.boardgamegeek.com/thread/144179
http://www.boardgamegeek.com/thread/144125
http://www.boardgamegeek.com/thread/122896

Try searching for a topic before posting.

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Marc P
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rsjrev wrote:


In academia, the evolution proponents are in charge...


That's true. Are you suggesting that this state of affairs just happened by chance? You seem to feel that there is no science. People in charge of science education disagree. Your statements are not revolutionary or bold or even original. They're frankly embarrassing to a fellow Christian like me.
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J
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rsjrev wrote:
No, the folks who challenge the political power suffered, as they do today.


you said he would have been burning heretics, but in fact he would have been considered a heretic and therefore burned.

but actually I think the world was just created yesterday and all historical record is just a test of our faith, so there were never any heretics burned in the first place. we can now all live in peace

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Marshall P.
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"Nothing in Biology Makes Sense Except in the Light of Evolution" - Theodosius Dobzhansky
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There is grandeur in this view of life, whilst this planet has gone cycling on according to the fixed law of gravity, from so simple a beginning endless forms most beautiful and most wonderful have been, and are being, evolved.
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rsjrev wrote:

Valid evidence of change within species is presented, then a leap of faith is made to apply claim that cross species or "macro evolution" is proven. That's faith, my friend, not science.


Ah yes, the old micro vs. macro false dichotomy. All we need to hear now is that evolution is not falsifiable and that evilutionist scientists actively suppress competing theories and we'll have covered almost everything (oops, see above, one down one to go).

There is no difference between micro and macro evolution except lotsa time. Lots and lots of time. In fact, it's not even clear to me what, in principle, could stop microevolution from becoming macroevolution. Perhaps you can suggest something?

But before you do check out this article. It should get you started on the evidence for macroevolution (I'll be surprised if you haven't been shown this before).

http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/comdesc/
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Gerald M. Zabos
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rsjrev wrote:

No, the folks who challenge the political power suffered, as they do today.


Get your history right, please. In the Dark Ages, the guys holding political and secular power were also the ones bearing the flag for the church. I call that ultimate POWER. They reigned in secular and clerical issues. The ones who suffered was the common people.

Inquisition and burning heretics was a matter of clerical people. They decided when someone was believing in wrong deity, bringing up straaaange theories like the earth travelling around the sun or just had the wrong hair color.

They justified this with religious faith in representing god on earth. I call that a theory not fact, because none of them, including the pope never did prove their words. Even if you read the bible, there is no mention about someone representing god on earth.

Excuse my short trip off topic, but i think this is a good history lesson to show how church and ultra-religious groups try to gain power. Invent creatonism, demonize all science, especially the parts which oppose the holy books statement on god and his role on creating the world.
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Marshall P.
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"Nothing in Biology Makes Sense Except in the Light of Evolution" - Theodosius Dobzhansky
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There is grandeur in this view of life, whilst this planet has gone cycling on according to the fixed law of gravity, from so simple a beginning endless forms most beautiful and most wonderful have been, and are being, evolved.
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jmilum wrote:

actually he probably would have been one that was burned, right marshall?


You're right but unfortunately we need not go back to the dark ages. There are 6 Bulgarian nurses scheduled to be executed (firing squad, not burning though) in Libya on the charge of infecting over 400 Libyan children with the HIV virus. However, EVOLUTIONARY EVIDENCE (which the court did not accept) proves they are innocent. Basically, a phylogenetic analysis shows that the strain infecting the children was a West African strain which existed and was spreading before the nurses arrived.

http://www.theherald.co.uk/features/76132.html
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Scott Russell
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Joe Cool wrote:
Please, could someone answer to this:
why is the church opposing the evolution theory in the U.S. but not in Europe????

For me this is a complete mystery, I have no idea why is it like this.


It's pretty clear that people in Europe do not take their religious tachings seriously.

Example,
The Catholic church prohibits birth control.
A large majority of Spanish, French and Italians identify themselves as Catholic.
The birth rate (between 1.1 and 1.3 per couple) of these nations doesn't match with the first two facts.

So it really doesn't matter what "the church" in Europe opposes or embraces in Europe. In the US, there are many voters that vote to support the views of their (often fundamentalist) religion, first and foremost.
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Big Woo
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rsjrev wrote:
jmilum wrote:
rsjrev wrote:
Ah, the open mind strikes again. In the Dark Ages, you'd have been a priest burning heretics.


actually he probably would have been one that was burned, right marshall?


No, the folks who challenge the political power suffered, as they do today.

In academia, the evolution proponents are in charge, and they ruthlessly oppress anyone who suggests the emperor is naked. They are driving that same oppression into politics. How dare anyone suggest an alternative theory? To even state the obvious fact that evolution is theory, not proven fact, is grounds for discipline and termination of tenure.


Ah, is this the new game-plan? Defining yourself as the sexy underdog fighting the establishment, angling the sympathy vote? Or do you want me to add value to your argument simply because in the past the some "challenging" theories were proven correct, and since you are the challenger now... Thin ice.... but no problem if you believe in walking on water. Paddle away... if you get to Europe I might be swayed.
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Big Woo
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qzhdad wrote:
It's pretty clear that people in Europe do not take their religious tachings seriously.


Not as clear as that there are some people in the US who feel utterly superior based on argumentation that would not stand up in front of a mirror.
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Scott Russell
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Quote:
But before you do check out this article.


Has anyone constructed a plausible chain from amoeba up to vertebrae?

I don't even need fossil record, but start with an amoeba (or amoeba like creature/lifeform) and postulate the viable intermediate steps to a creature with a endo-skeleton.

I am unaware of anything along these lines for primitive life to more complex. For example, given an amoeba, how do flagella appear? How many simultaneous gene changes are necessary? What advantage is gained?

A postulated evolution would be a lot easier to sell than, "Here are a bunch of animals that have similar characteritics," so evolution must have occurred.

I don't want a highly technical discussion of the earbones being similar in reptiles, birds and mammals, I want a step by step discussion of what could have happened.

There's fiction out there that speculatively fills in gaps from early primates to modern (actually postmodern) primates. Evolution is one such work that still does a lot of hand-waving between points, but describes at a macro level what factors in the envronment could contribute to the chanages being an evolutionary advantage. For example, increasing in size leading to a better tolerance for cold weather after the comet strike.




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