$10.00
Recommend
4 
 Thumb up
 Hide
14 Posts

Vegas Showdown» Forums » Strategy

Subject: Opening bidding in 5-player Vegas showdown rss

Your Tags: Add tags
Popular Tags: [View All]
Eugene Hung
United States
San Jose
California
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
I really enjoy this game; it's provided me with a lot of bang for the buck and it feels like it rewards study. I'd like to solicit feedback from the BGG community about the relative value of the tiles in the opening round of a 5p game. Unless an unusual event (Sale!) occurs, all the premium tiles will be selling at IPO value, and are too expensive to consider buying on the first round (although I do understand the distribution influences base tile bids). So the basic decision in the first round is to purchase a base tile, or publicize. With 5 players, there are 2 slots, 1 lounge, and 1 restaurant available. Assuming a fairly typical opening premium tile distribution (1 Fancy Slots, 1 Buffet, 1 Fancy Lounge, and something random so that every base tile has pre-requisite value), how much would people be willing to bid for each base item before deciding to publicize?

The reason I ask is that one of my friends (a fellow BGGer who is superb at analysis) stated that, all things being equal, an opening Slots at $12 was better than a Lounge at $9, and an opening Slots at $9 was a steal. I am certainly willing to pay $9 to buy an opening Slots, but after $9 it seems like the price/performance ratio of an opening Slots has gone way down relative to an unbid Lounge. I don't consider opening with a Lounge to be a bad thing, especially if I'm saving $3 in the process, because it is the most flexible tile and makes it easy to fill in the side of the hotel/casino it's placed upon. What are people's thoughts on the relative merit of Slots vs. Lounges?
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Todd Sweet
United States
Geneva
Illinois
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
I personally would love to get a lounge in the opening round for $9, but would not pay more. I love to put a lounge as my 1st tile in the hotel part of my map so that two restuarant size pieces fill it up on either side.
I also won't pay over $7 for a slot and that would be my opening bid.
If I couldn't get a lounge for $9 or a slot for $7, then I would take pubilicity.

Edited to replace "lounge" where I had placed "slot".
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Ernie Lai
United States
Forest Hills
New York
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
i think todd means lounge as his first hotel tile, and i also like to do that if i can get it at base price, but only after bidding on slots 1st.

for slots i would definitely buy at $9 and maybe at $12.

otherwise publicity
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Eugene Hung
United States
San Jose
California
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
Right, but say two people bid $9 for slots, one guy goes $15 for a restaurant, and one guy goes $9 for a lounge. As 5th player, would you rather take $12 for a lounge, bid $12 for a Slots, or publicize? How about $9 for a Lounge vs. $12 for a Slots vs publicize?
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Todd Sweet
United States
Geneva
Illinois
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
eyhung wrote:
Right, but say two people bid $9 for slots, one guy goes $15 for a restaurant, and one guy goes $9 for a lounge. As 5th player, would you rather take $12 for a lounge, bid $12 for a Slots, or publicize? How about $9 for a Lounge vs. $12 for a Slots vs publicize?


I think $9 is too much for a slot and I only want to get lounges and restaurants at base price, so in this example as the 5th player I would take Publicity.
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Ernie Lai
United States
Forest Hills
New York
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
eyhung wrote:
Right, but say two people bid $9 for slots, one guy goes $15 for a restaurant, and one guy goes $9 for a lounge. As 5th player, would you rather take $12 for a lounge, bid $12 for a Slots, or publicize? How about $9 for a Lounge vs. $12 for a Slots vs publicize?


i would most likely bid $12 for slots in this scenario, in fact, i'd bid $12 for slots before i'd bid $15 for a restaurant in the 1st turn. a 1st turn restaurant does nothing for your income, leaves you with less money than all the other players for future rounds and may cause layout issues later if you place it at your hotel entrance because of that wall on one side. and i definitely wouldn't bid $12 for a lounge either, if i spend $12 i'll spend it on slots.

p.s. if one of the 1st premier tiles was a fancy restaurant, a 1st turn restaurant might be a possibility for me. otherwise no.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Clark Millikan
United States
Mountain View
California
flag msg tools
mbmbmb
How's this for a purely logistical argument. Income producing rooms (slots) are most valuable on the first turn of the game, and slowly decrease in value as the game goes on (fewer turns to collect the added income). Rooms that produce victory points (lounges) start out having a low value, and slowly increase in value as the game progresses. After all, this is just a glorified, and auction version of St Petersburg, right? Buy income early, and VP late. If slots aren't worth 12 (maybe 15) on the first round of the game, they will never be worth that much. If the game developers did their job right (admittedly not guarenteed), the 12 and 15 spaces on slots would be totally wasted space (okay, you might want to have one extra space for differences of opinion, or to allow people to overbid) unless they were worth that much on the first turn. Also, if a lounge is worth 9 on the first turn, then a lounge should be purchased for at least 9 every turn, until they are gone, because they get more valuable as the game goes on. In general, I haven't seen this, a number of turns go by when nobody purchases a lounge. Granted, better values may come by as premium rooms drop in price, but I don't think this accounts for all the times I see lounges go unpurchased.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Eugene Hung
United States
San Jose
California
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
Well, Clark, seeing as you're the person I alluded to earlier, here are some counterarguments.

First, just because a Lounge is a good value at $9 on the opening turn doesn't mean it's a good value at $9 on every turn. After all, not every turn later in the game sees 2 Slots go for $5 (a price that everyone agrees is underpriced early.) Sometimes there are better opportunities (such as premium tiles on sale), or sometimes players are out of money or saving up for an important tile.

The argument that the bidding track goes up to 15 doesn't mean that it's ever worth $15. You could make a similar argument about the restaurant, but I've never seen anyone make the max bid of $27ish, either early or late, on a restaurant (for good reason).

Also, I think there's a decided layout advantage from starting a side with a lounge, especially with the hotel side. It's much easier to score the 5 point bonus for filling a side without using a Renovate action. In particular, the premium blue tiles you need to fill your Hotel side are dependent on the Restaurant as a pre-requisite, but having your first room on the blue side as a Restaurant is unsatisfactory. The wall on one side of the square gets in the way of either filling the 5x2 section or connecting the two entrances. Planning to open the blue side with a Lounge then Restaurant allows you to optimize the building of that side with minimal purchases and renovations, gaining the lounge builder an extra fame or two compared to the person who builds a restaurant before the lounge. This special configuration of the Hotel side makes a Lounge more valuable early in the game (before you've bought your first Restaurant), rather than after. This, as well as the tiles that the Lounge is a pre-req to (one Night Club is an A tile), compensates somewhat for the lounge's lack of contribution to your income stream. Not enough to make them worth more than Slots at $9, but I think the gap is smaller than you think.

I definitely agree that this is an economic game like PR and StP and that income is important, but unlike those games, the optimal economic strategy is available to every player, depending on how much they're willing to pay for it. As such, it comes down to identifying the correct valuations for the optimal economic strategy vs. the initially sub-optimal non-economic strategy.

Essentially, we agree that the default optimal base tile acquisition order as Slots > Lounge > Restaurant, but the available premium tiles, early event cards, and the competition for the more desirable base tiles may change that order. I think a $7 premium for Slots vs. a $0 premium for Lounge is too much to make up. Any monetary advantage gained by your purchasing Slots at a dear price ($12, or $15) to gain cash flow early can be compensated by my winning slots at $9, or even $7, on a following round. You may gain $1-2 more from purchasing that $12 slot a turn earlier, but I gain $3 when I buy my $9 slots out of phase with you.

Anyway, those are my thoughts, and I look forward to continuing this discussion.

Eugene
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Rob Flowers

Odenton
Unspecified
msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
I can see bidding $12 on the first turn for a slots. Especially if there's a Fancy Slots that I might get on the next turn for $12. I would consider $9 a good deal.

I bet the $12 and $15 spaces come into more use in a three or four player game, when only 1 slot is available for auction. And if the PR scandal comes out, that tends to push all prices up, since you can no longer get 1 VP as a fallback.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Alan Kwan
Hong Kong
Hong Kong
Unspecified
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
The Lougnes generally go down in value as the game goes on. As my strategy article explained, you don't buy a Lounge for its printed VP value (because it's better to Publicize instead); you buy it for its pre-requisite and layout values, both of which are generally more useful in the early game than later.

For me, the opening premium tiles will really affect whether I'm going to bid 12 on a Slots. Fancy Slots will sway me towards; two Fancy Slots on display and I'll bid 12 with little hesitation. OTOH, the non-Slots gaming tiles (Sports Book and Table Games) will sway me against: why bid 12 on a Slots if I can have a Sports Book for 25 (or try to save my money and get it for $18 next turn)?

If I'm the last player, and everybody is bidding 9 on Slots but I won't bid 12, I should be prepared to be unable to get a Slots for a while. Paying $12 for a Slots is not bad, if it also stops someone from getting one for $9.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Kevin Brown
United States
Macon
Georgia
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
Our last three games have been won by comfortable margins by a player whose new mantra is "never pay more than $5 for a slot". He won by a dozen, scoring 70 points, with only one slot last night.

His theory is that small squares are far less valuable than rectangles and large squares, a greater difference than most people think, and slots only lead to more small squares.
3 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Eugene Hung
United States
San Jose
California
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
That's an interesting assertion. How does he generate revenue then? Sports Book? Table Games/HRR? If neither of these is on the table in the first turn, I think you have to bid on the slots at $7 -- income is king.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Kevin Brown
United States
Macon
Georgia
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
He takes publicity often. When you avoid smaller rooms, you don't need to purchase as many and can get more bang for your buck.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Tala Mare
msg tools
mb
If I pay $9 for slots on turn 1
You pay $5 for slots on turn 4

We basically have spent the same $
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Front Page | Welcome | Contact | Privacy Policy | Terms of Service | Advertise | Support BGG | Feeds RSS
Geekdo, BoardGameGeek, the Geekdo logo, and the BoardGameGeek logo are trademarks of BoardGameGeek, LLC.