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Subject: Essen 2007: On our own rss

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Chapel
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Well it looks like BGN has decided to take it's essen preview private to it's paying subscriber base. Which is totally within it's right to do so.

But now that leave the rest of us to a more vigilant position to update information as a community whenever it arises for the public consumption of BGG and the general public here on the geek.

I think if each of us takes a little time to pick up tidbits from publishers ourselves we should be able to keep up to date on what on the horizon.

Maybe Aldie can create a sticky thread and a Gallery devoted to essen and other industry shows, we could have a more centralized repository of information?

Any ideas?
 
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Bobby Warren
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MWChapel wrote:
Any ideas?

For things like the Essen and Nuremberg shows, a Wiki page for each of them which lists the games coming out, or being previewed at the shows with links to the game pages on the Geek would work quite well.
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Jens Hoppe
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That's a pretty disappointing thing for BGN to do, though they are of course free to do with their content as they wish.

Hopefully, we will be able to manage without them. And I think we will.
 
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Chapel
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jens_hoppe wrote:
That's a pretty disappointing thing for BGN to do, though they are of course free to do with their content as they wish.

Hopefully, we will be able to manage without them. And I think we will.


Which is why I figured if we combined our collective effort, with a some area of input(Bobby's Wiki Idea)here, we should be able to come up with a better free solution.
 
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Daniel Karp
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MWChapel wrote:
Which is why I figured if we combined our collective effort, with a some area of input(Bobby's Wiki Idea)here, we should be able to come up with a better free solution.

Sounds like a good idea! If someone wants to get started, they can work on something here:
http://www.boardgamegeek.com/wiki/page/Essen_2007

Oh, and it should go without saying, but copying anything from Boardgamenews for the BGG Essen preview wiki is not allowed.
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Chapel
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I've added a sample, if someone would like to improve upon the design, please feel free.

PS: I am far from any kind of wikimaster.
 
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Scott Tepper
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Michael,

At the risk of being too close to the situation, I feel I must respond.

I'm wondering if you gave any thought to the idea that Eric Martin is trying to make a living off of BGN. Evidently, you feel there is merit to the work he does, because you are asking people to help copy it.

I don't understand why it is disappointing for Eric to be asking people to help contribute to Boardgamenews to ensure its survival. Right now, the amount of work that Eric puts into BGN is surely disproportionate to the income he receives from it.

I'm wondering, if you are successful, will Eric just dump the website, if people don't want to spend $2 a month for the content he makes available to us all?

I just have never really appreciated the attitude of the "big guys", (And yes, in this case, BGG(that I wholeheartedly financially support) is a big guy) when they try to undercut little guys and drive them out of business.

Scott
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Chapel
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Scott Tepper wrote:
Michael,

At the risk of being too close to the situation, I feel I must respond.

I'm wondering if you gave any thought to the idea that Eric Martin is trying to make a living off of BGN. Evidently, you feel there is merit to the work he does, because you are asking people to help copy it.

I don't understand why it is disappointing for Eric to be asking people to help contribute to Boardgamenews to ensure its survival. Right now, the amount of work that Eric puts into BGN is surely disproportionate to the income he receives from it.

I'm wondering, if you are successful, will Eric just dump the website, if people don't want to spend $2 a month for the content he makes available to us all?

I just have never really appreciated the attitude of the "big guys", (And yes, in this case, BGG(that I wholeheartedly financially support) is a big guy) when they try to undercut little guys and drive them out of business.

Scott


I certainly understand your opinion in about what is considered value on the web, and certainly BGN has valuable information. But we differ on what I consider something that should be paid for. I for one really like the wikipedia model vs. the Britannica model. Even though Britannica might have better content. This is a hobby and collaboration could easily create the same level of content, while still keeping information free.

BGN is free to chose whatever model suits them best. That I am not disparaging. Even though I have my opinions on this matter, I chose not to share them, as they are my own opinions, and have no need to debate them.
 
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Simon Klein
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Learn german and you get more info than you ever wished for... and of course also for free
Ciao,
Simon
 
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Scott Tepper
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Simon,

Das ist schon wahr. Ich versuche.

Aber es ist nicht genau freit. Ich muss meinen deutschen Lehrer zahlen!

Scott
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Simon Klein
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Scott Tepper wrote:
Simon,

Das ist schon wahr. Ich versuche!

Hey good job!

You should really check out Spielbox.de - they have the best news on boardgames and also more and more english stuff there...
They have the best Essen preview and tons of other usefull stuff. I bet you can make out the most info by yourself even without knowing english (try this for example: http://www.spielbox.de/spielarchiv/sbmessen/spiel071-xxx.php... )

Concerning learning english: we recently gave our english gamers ¡New Amici! (ger-eng of course) as a gift and they really seem to enjoy it and also improve their german while playing it!
 
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Daniel Karp
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100 geekgold for OverText, and all I got was this stupid sentence.
Scott Tepper wrote:
you are asking people to help copy it.

I don't think anyone is asking people to copy anything from BGN, and if they do so, they'll hear from the admins, because that is copyrighted material. Instead, Michael is asking people to gather information directly from the publishers and other freely available news sources.
 
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Chapel
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Scott Tepper wrote:
Simon,

Das ist schon wahr. Ich versuche.

Aber es ist nicht genau freit. Ich muss meinen deutschen Lehrer zahlen!

Scott


That is already true. I try. But it is not exactly free. I must pay my German teacher!

That is babelfish, and it is free.
 
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Maarten D. de Jong
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Zopper-Alf wrote:
Learn german and you get more info than you ever wished for... and of course also for free

But in case of rare releases, too late, and without any further information whatsoever. I only know of Spielbox's list, but that doesn't come with descriptions and the like. There is already a hint of new Fragor and Breese titles---that's not even mentioned anywhere else. The German information is quite fragmented too, so I have to visit tons of sites each day to keep tabs on what's happening. BGN is such a central news repository that publishers are likely to contact the editor themselves. Basically, it's the difference between having an all-access VIP backstage pass and an ordinary n-th rank entry ticket.

Much as I understand Eric's rationale for making the Essen list something to pay for (it's one of the site's crown jewels, so to speak), I consider it an annoying coupled sale which sets my teeth on edge. I am not at all interested in what else the site of BGN has to offer unless there is more to it than the Gone Cardboard-pages and utterly forgettable columns from a few enthusiasts. And then $25 for two webpages is a mite expensive.

The galling thing is that I'll probably end up paying anyway: I like going to Essen as prepared as I can (I visit for just 2 days, so I want to make 'em count), but I expect some bitter shouting matches over BGG's Wiki, since it is very hard to establish who got what information from whom, especially if people (including those at BGN) receive standard press releases. (On the other hand, it is in the publishers' best interests to make sure that their releases reach as many people as possible. But I'm not taking chances this year. Perhaps in 2008 things will be sufficiently settled and different.)
 
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Chapel
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cymric wrote:
BGN is such a central news repository that publishers are likely to contact the editor themselves. Basically, it's the difference between having an all-access VIP backstage pass and an ordinary n-th rank entry ticket.


That is certainly true, but if you were a publisher, would you rather give that information to a site that will be available to less than 100 users or to a site that has well over 150,000 users? Remember, Essen releases information are advertisements for these games.
 
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Bobby Warren
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Scott Tepper wrote:
Michael,

At the risk of being too close to the situation, I feel I must respond.

I'm wondering if you gave any thought to the idea that Eric Martin is trying to make a living off of BGN. Evidently, you feel there is merit to the work he does, because you are asking people to help copy it.

I don't understand why it is disappointing for Eric to be asking people to help contribute to Boardgamenews to ensure its survival. Right now, the amount of work that Eric puts into BGN is surely disproportionate to the income he receives from it.

I'm wondering, if you are successful, will Eric just dump the website, if people don't want to spend $2 a month for the content he makes available to us all?

I just have never really appreciated the attitude of the "big guys", (And yes, in this case, BGG(that I wholeheartedly financially support) is a big guy) when they try to undercut little guys and drive them out of business.

Scott

I don't see where Mike was asking people to copy the info on BGN, but to duplicate the effort of collecting the information which is freely available from the game companies so everyone, not just the few who choose to pay, can get the scoop on the upcoming games.

I just want to see a listing of the games that will be released and a blurb which covers what they are about. A lot of the information on the pages at BGN was far more than I ever wanted. The Wiki page will do that plus link to the pages about the game here on the Geek if I want to learn more about the game. Plus, it will be a long-term record of what games came out at Essen 2007 which can be referenced by anyone using BGG in the future.

Regarding driving BGN out of business, if making one page which contains similar information would drive it out of business, then it is a bad business model and would probably be going out of business anyway. If the service BGN provides is a good value for what it charges and the audience is big enough, then it will survive. It's basic economics.
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Scott Tepper
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MWChapel wrote:
Scott Tepper wrote:
Simon,

Das ist schon wahr. Ich versuche.

Aber es ist nicht genau freit. Ich muss meinen deutschen Lehrer zahlen!

Scott


That is already true. I try. But it is not exactly free. I must pay my German teacher!

That is babelfish, and it is free.



Well, Michael, using bablefish, you run the risk of mis-translating words. But I guess that's the difference between us; I believe you get what you pay for.

(my use of schon there didn't mean "already")

Good luck when you're trying to translate Zug, or a compound word.
 
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Maarten D. de Jong
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MWChapel wrote:
That is certainly true, but if you were a publisher, would you rather give that information to a site that will be available to less than 100 users or to a site that has well over 150,000 users? Remember, Essen releases information are advertisements for these games.

See the last line of my reply: I'm already taking into account the possibility. Overall, perhaps I'm being too cynical, and in a month or two you will make me eat my words . I'll do what I can to help, though.
 
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Michael Pennisi
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I wonder if this will reach the level of MTG spoilers where BGN will put fake games in the Essen description to catch BGG'ers copying info.
 
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Chris Bailey
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MWChapel wrote:
Well it looks like BGN has decided to take it's essen preview private to it's paying subscriber base.


That's a brilliant move. They've finally done something that will make them give them money for a subscription. Wait...no they didn't.
 
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Chapel
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I've updates the wiki with some information to get it started. I also added editor notes that hopefully will make this list a success without stepping on anyones feet.

I look forward to seeing how well the collaboration works for this.

http://www.boardgamegeek.com/wiki/page/Essen_2007
 
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John Bohrer
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If you don't want to learn German (the sentence structure still gives me fits) an easy way to read the awesome Spielbox website is using Google's automatic website translation. For Spielbox, try:
http://translate.google.com/translate?u=http%3A%2F%2Fspielbo...

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marc magner
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Scott Tepper wrote:
Michael,

At the risk of being too close to the situation, I feel I must respond.

I'm wondering if you gave any thought to the idea that Eric Martin is trying to make a living off of BGN. Evidently, you feel there is merit to the work he does, because you are asking people to help copy it.

I don't understand why it is disappointing for Eric to be asking people to help contribute to Boardgamenews to ensure its survival. Right now, the amount of work that Eric puts into BGN is surely disproportionate to the income he receives from it.

I'm wondering, if you are successful, will Eric just dump the website, if people don't want to spend $2 a month for the content he makes available to us all?

I just have never really appreciated the attitude of the "big guys", (And yes, in this case, BGG(that I wholeheartedly financially support) is a big guy) when they try to undercut little guys and drive them out of business.

Scott


Scott

You are correct. BGN provides a valuable service to me. well worth the $2 a month subscription. While I'm not opposed to a collective effort undertaken by the geek community, I do have to wonder about the ability to sustain that effort over the years. Will people want to continue to put in the time and effort to translate and post the information, year after year,with out some form of compensation?

BGN is a good service and I hope Eric is able to achieve the base level of subscribers and industry supporters that he is need for him to continue with the site for years to come.

Marc
 
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Michael "Ice" Berg
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Quote:
You are correct. BGN provides a valuable service to me. well worth the $2 a month subscription. While I'm not opposed to a collective effort undertaken by the geek community, I do have to wonder about the ability to sustain that effort over the years. Will people want to continue to put in the time and effort to translate and post the information, year after year,with out some form of compensation?


Look at wikipedia, BGG, or any other of a large number of online websites. Their content is created by volunteer enthusiasts, and such enthusiasm is not lacking within the general online board game community.

More often then not, community-driven sites continue on where individual efforts fail.
 
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Ed
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It seems hard to get users to pay for content on any website. I remember back in the days when I was a regular visitor at GameSpot, they tried to get users to pay to access old reviews and then gave up on that pretty quickly.
 
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