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Subject: Question regarding game end rss

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Jason -
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The rule book reads as though when a game ending event occurs, the current player finishes his turn (possibly playing more tokens) and then the game ends, whereas the Lawson FAQ (http://freespace.virgin.net/chris.lawson/rk/samurai/index.ht...) reads as though the game would end immediately without the current player being permitted to play any more tiles (but the FAQ doesn't explicitly talk about the game end). Which is the correct interpretation? (Personally, I believe it is the one suggested by the FAQ.)

("Why does it matter?" Well, it pretty much doesn't since a player can choose the order he plays his tokens so he's able to play all that he wants in what will be his last turn, playing the game end inducing token as the last one. BUT, there is one situation that I can imagine where the rule interpretation matters: a player has his Ronin left and there are two figures in different parts of the board each with just one unfilled adjacent land spot and each which is the last figure of its type. The first interpretation above would allow him to capture both figures (playing his Ronin and another token) and then have the game end. The second interpretation would allow him to only capture one but not both of the figures.)
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Steven Hall
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Re:Question regarding game end
I believe the rules book says "When the last figure of any type (High Helmet, Buddha or Rice Field) is removed from the board (by either capture or set beside the board with a tie), the current player's turn is finished and then the game ends."

Not that the current player's turn *if finished* not the current player *finishes his turn*.

In other words, as soon as that token is removed "It's game over, man."
 
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Steven Hall
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Re:Question regarding game end
shall1028 wrote:
Not that the current player's turn *if finished* not the current player *finishes his turn*.


Note to self: preview message before sending...

The sentence above should be:

Note that the current player's turn *is finished* not the current player *finishes his turn*.
 
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Paul Sauberer
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Re:Question regarding game end
shall1028 wrote:
I believe the rules book says "When the last figure of any type (High Helmet, Buddha or Rice Field) is removed from the board (by either capture or set beside the board with a tie), the current player's turn is finished and then the game ends."

Not that the current player's turn *if finished* not the current player *finishes his turn*.

In other words, as soon as that token is removed "It's game over, man."


It's not that simple. It also says "and *then* the game ends," not "and the game ends." This implies two separate occurences and that the game does not necessarily end concurrently with the capture of the last piece.

However, given the FAQ, I would guess that the last piece does immediately trigger the game end.
 
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Greg Aleknevicus
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Re:Question regarding game end
This reminds me of an old skit:

The chief nuclear technician is about to go on holidays and tells his underlings: "The only thing you need to know is that you can't put too much water in a nuclear reactor."

After he has left, one of the remaining worker says: "Okay let's fill this thing up with water. After all, the boss said that it's impossible to put too much water in a nuclear reactor."

Another worker responds with: "What are you doing? He said that you shouldn't put too much water in a nuclear reactor!"

This is directly analagous to the phrase "the current player's turn is finished". Is this an instruction or a declaration? The correct answer is that it's both (from a grammatical point of view) and therefore ambiguous. This phrase should be re-written as either:

"the current player completes his turn and then the game ends."

or

"the current player's turn is immediately interrupted and the game ends."

depending on which is the intended meaning.
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Francis Bergeron
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Re:Question regarding game end
LetsGoRed (#41160),

Itry to give my best english (I'm french user
)
In my french version it's stated that the game's end when the running player have finished is turn. That's mean you can play your tile and your ronin and, maybe, capture 2 figures... I think it's a good way to play because you can use this tactic to capture your second figure majority, the other(s) player(s) just have to be aware of this. This move maybe a well done job, it's a plus for the tactic... have fun!
 
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Nasty McHaggis
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Re:Question regarding game end
Psauberer (#41661),

Quote:
It's not that simple. It also says "and *then* the game ends," not "and the game ends." This implies two separate occurences and that the game does not necessarily end concurrently with the capture of the last piece.

However, given the FAQ, I would guess that the last piece does immediately trigger the game end.


You don't need to consult the FAQ to answer this question. It's in the rules.

The rulebook states:

When all land spaces adjacent to a figure are filled with tokens, the figure is immediately captured and taken by the player with the strongest influence or placed beside the board if no player has won the figure.


Further down, it states:

When the last figure of any type (High Helmet, Buddha or Rice Field) is removed from the board (by either capture or set beside the board with a tie), the current player's turn is finished and then the game ends.

Combining these two rules: When the last figure of any type is removed, which occurs immediately after all adjacent land spaces have been filled, the turn is finished. The game then ends, as all figures of one type have been removed and the game end condition has been met.

Seems pretty cut and dry to me.
 
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Paul Sauberer
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Re:Question regarding game end
Longbow wrote:
Seems pretty cut and dry to me.


That's because you are interpreting it in only one possible way.

Another possible way to look at it is:

A player plays a tile which captures the last piece of one type.

He then uses any other tiles he would be allowed to, thus making his turn "finished."

Then the game ends.

It's the difference between looking at the word "finished" as a verb or an adjective, both of which are possible and make sense in the sentence.

You are looking at "finished" as an adjective for which you could substitute the word "over." It is also a correct construction to look at it as an intransitive verb for which you could substitute "subsequently brought to completion."

Both are possibly correct interpretations of an ambiguous phrasing.

The first rule you cite doesn't really have any bearing on the discusion because there is no debate about whether the piece is captured or not.
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Nasty McHaggis
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Re:Question regarding game end
Quote:
Another possible way to look at it is:

A player plays a tile which captures the last piece of one type.

He then uses any other tiles he would be allowed to, thus making his turn "finished."


No, he doesn't. Playing another tile after the last figure of any type is captured is strictly prohibited by the rule:

When all land spaces adjacent to a figure are filled with tokens, the figure is immediately captured and taken by the player with the strongest influence or placed beside the board if no player has won the figure.

The the game ends:

When the last figure of any type (High Helmet, Buddha or Rice Field) is removed from the board (by either capture or set beside the board with a tie) (this condition is met and no more tiles may be played, as per above citation), the current player's turn is finished and then the game ends.

Quote:
The first rule you cite doesn't really have any bearing on the discusion because there is no debate about whether the piece is captured or not.


Yes, it has significant bearing on the discussion. Once the piece is captured, no more tiles are played, no more figures are captured, game ends, determine the score and declare a winner.
 
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Paul Sauberer
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Re:Question regarding game end
Longbow wrote:
Quote:
Another possible way to look at it is:

A player plays a tile which captures the last piece of one type.

He then uses any other tiles he would be allowed to, thus making his turn "finished."


No, he doesn't. Playing another tile after the last figure of any type is captured is strictly prohibited by the rule:

When all land spaces adjacent to a figure are filled with tokens, the figure is immediately captured and taken by the player with the strongest influence or placed beside the board if no player has won the figure.

The the game ends:

When the last figure of any type (High Helmet, Buddha or Rice Field) is removed from the board (by either capture or set beside the board with a tie) (this condition is met and no more tiles may be played, as per above citation), the current player's turn is finished and then the game ends.

Quote:
The first rule you cite doesn't really have any bearing on the discusion because there is no debate about whether the piece is captured or not.


Yes, it has significant bearing on the discussion. Once the piece is captured, no more tiles are played, no more figures are captured, game ends, determine the score and declare a winner.


I play a Ronin in the last space surrounding a helmet (there are more helmets on the board). Are you saying that I cannot then play another tile? Where is that in the rules? The rule you cite does not prohibit capturing more than one piece per turn, which is what would be necessary for your interpretation to be correct.

Otherwise, you are insisting that "finished" is being used as an adjective in the end game description. This is not necessarily so.

If "finished" is actually an intransitive verb (which is just as valid a meaning as it being an adjective" then the end game could go differently.

I select a Ronin and a Buddha 4 from behind my screen to play (as per item 1 under "During each turn" on page 3 of the rules).

I place the Ronin so as to surround the last helmet. If "finished" is an intransitive verb and not an adjective, then the game does not end at that point because "the current player's turn is" not "finished" (i.e. brought to completion.) According to the rules, the current player's turn must be finshed "and then the game ends." (bold added) It does not say that the player's turn is over. Nor does it say, "the current player's turn is finished, thus ending the game." It says this happens, then that happens. This indicates two separate actions in a distinct order.

Regardless of the faq, I think that this is the proper interpretation after looking at the description of the other end game condition:

"The game also ends when the fourth figure is placed beside the board when captured due to a tie. As before, the current player's turn is completed and then the game ends."

The "As before" indicates that both end game situations are handled the same with regard to the last player's turn. In this case, though, it is harder to make the argument that "completed" is being used as an adjective. It makes more sense that the word is being used to mean "brought to completion." Also, once again, it specifically separates the end of the player's turn from the end of the game. Since it says that both scenarios are handled the same way, that would make "finished" also mean "brought to completion," which is a perfectly legitimate use of the word.

Also, there are several much easier ways of saying that the game ends immediately after capture of the last figure. One would be to say, "The game ends immediately." In fact, the entire "the current player's turn is finished" is a completely unnecessary phrase if the game ends immediately upon capture of the last piece. Likewise, the entire second sentence of the second end game condition would be redundant. Why say "the game ends" twice in this case? The fact that this phrase and sentence are there is another indication that it is giving a direction for the current player to bring his turn to completion and then, only after this is done, end the game.

Of course, you are free to play the game any way you want, but you might want to clear up this ambiguity with anyone you play with before it becomes an issue. The important thing is to arrive at a joint decision before it happens.
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Paul Sauberer
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Re:Question regarding game end
I just looked at the faq referenced in an earlier post. It does not indicate at all that the game ends immediately when the last piece of a type is captured.

The faq addresses the order of laying tiles and when a capture takes place. The capture takes place immediately after a piece is surrounded. The answer on the faq would have to do with playing something like the figure exchange tile during a turn in which a cpature is made. It has nothing to do with the end game.

Join that to the mention of the French rules in another previous post, which supposedly clearly indicate that a player's turn is brought to completion before the game ends.

So we have two interpretations. One (that "finished" is an adjective), while being correct grammatically, would be essentially repetitive and/or unnecessary in context and directly contradicts the French translation. The other (that "finished" is a verb) is just as much a valid grammatical usage, does not repeat the rules, and would yield the same meaning as the French translation. I know which interpretation I will use.
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Nasty McHaggis
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Re:Question regarding game end
Psauberer (#80772),

I see your point. The wording of the second game-end condition certainly suggests that the turn is allowed to finish before the game ends.

I emailed Chris Lawson and asked him if he would come weigh in on this and possibly update the FAQ. Hopefully he will respond.
 
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Felix Adam
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Re:Question regarding game end
Longbow (#80807),

Hey, sorry to interrupt you two

I just bought the game friday and to me, the rule is really clear. there is no doubt of confusion about this (This is a french translation), the player is allowed to finish his turn should he have to play more than one tile. For those who understands french, here it is :

"Lorsque la derniere statuette de n'importe quel type (casque, bouddha ou riziere) est retiree du jeu, le jeu s'arrete des que le joueur dont c'est le tour de jouer a fini de jouer"

(No accent, english keyboard and too lazy at midnight too use alt+###)

I never saw the english rules, but I assume that people would be drawn toward using similar Knizia's rule, ie Tigris&Euphrate where you DON'T finish you're turn if the condition applies. However, i'm pretty sure it's not the case for Samurai.

Hope that helps guys!
 
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Nasty McHaggis
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Re:Question regarding game end
Bahamut-X (#81356),

Yes, it appears that the French rules leave no room for creative interpretation like the English version, and I now agree that this is the correct way to play it.

Chris Lawson said he'd have a chance to talk to RK on Wednesday and would ask him about it and post a clarification to the English rules. Hopefully he'll update the FAQ on his website as well.

Thanks for weighing in!
 
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Felix Adam
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Re:Question regarding game end
Longbow (#81455),

Lets just hope this was not a bad translation from the groggy english rules! wow
 
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Paul Sauberer
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Re:Question regarding game end
cnd_77 (#464724),

Yeah, the horse is not breathing, but I'll smack it anyway.

Short version is that your argument can be used both ways.

If the sentence that says "the players turn is finished and then the game is over" were meant to be a declaration, the word "then" would be unnecessary. The use of the word "then" indicates that the turn finishing (thus ending the game) is an event farther along in time than the selection of the last piece of a type.

So the English rule is not exactly clear either way. Evidently the French rule is, so the English interpretation that agrees with it is likely correct, but I could be wrong.
 
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Alan Kwan
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Re:Question regarding game end
Bahamut-X wrote:
I never saw the english rules, but I assume that people would be drawn toward using similar Knizia's rule, ie Tigris&Euphrate where you DON'T finish you're turn if the condition applies. However, i'm pretty sure it's not the case for Samurai.


Actually, in E&T, the last player does finish his turn (including any eligible monument scoring) before the game ends. The English rules is a mistranslation.
 
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Leonardo Gonzalez
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Re:Question regarding game end
Now its clear to me that a player can get the last piece and still continue playing his turn. Im sure that most have played the game ending incorrectly.


 
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Karl Schmit
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For what it's worth, in the PC version you would be able to continue your turn(by playing a Ronin) after the last piece of one type was taken off the board.
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Nasty McHaggis
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Longbow wrote:
Bahamut-X (#81356),

Yes, it appears that the French rules leave no room for creative interpretation like the English version, and I now agree that this is the correct way to play it.

Chris Lawson said he'd have a chance to talk to RK on Wednesday and would ask him about it and post a clarification to the English rules. Hopefully he'll update the FAQ on his website as well.

Thanks for weighing in!


Just to follow up, I never heard back from Mr. Lawson. I've been playing it as per the French rules version, and Paul's interpretation. I think he has the right of it.
 
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Daniel Corban
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This is an interesting topic. Here is my take on it.

The rules state you take your turn in this order (yes, they are numbered):
1) Play one or more tokens
2) Capture figures
3) Draw tiles

This is how I have been playing. You first play tiles. Then when finished playing tiles, you capture all figures simultaneously. This eliminates the "did I end the game or is the game ended for me" question. This question has no meaning if you use the turn order rules. If the final turn is forced to end as opposed to you ending is willfully, the only thing you miss out on is the draw step.

I also think people have been taking the term "immediately" wrong in step 2 of the turn order. It says "the figure is immediately captured". I take this to mean the figured is captured during that turn as opposed to at the end of the game.
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Nick Reymann
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ratpfink wrote:
For what it's worth, in the PC version you would be able to continue your turn(by playing a Ronin) after the last piece of one type was taken off the board.

Are you sure about that? I have the official PC version, and it greys out the rest of your tiles when you take the last of a kind, which happens immediately upon placement, making it so you CANNOT place any more. Are you sure you weren't playing under Domination rules, where all pieces must be removed in order for the game to finish?

Does anyone know how the iPhone version interprets the rules?
 
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Nick Reymann
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dcorban wrote:
This is an interesting topic. Here is my take on it.

The rules state you take your turn in this order (yes, they are numbered):
1) Play one or more tokens
2) Capture figures
3) Draw tiles

This is how I have been playing. You first play tiles. Then when finished playing tiles, you capture all figures simultaneously. This eliminates the "did I end the game or is the game ended for me" question. This question has no meaning if you use the turn order rules. If the final turn is forced to end as opposed to you ending is willfully, the only thing you miss out on is the draw step.


This is exactly how the iPhone version works, in case anyone was wondering. You can use the Ronin and another tile to capture multiple pieces that would end the game.
 
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