$10.00
Recommend
19 
 Thumb up
 Hide
39 Posts
1 , 2  Next »   | 

Kingsburg» Forums » General

Subject: Java Kingsburg with A.I. expansion preview Beta 1.3 rss

Your Tags: Add tags
Popular Tags: [View All]
Andrea Chiarvesio
Italy
Torino
Piemonte
flag msg tools
designer
mbmbmbmbmb
Thomas posted this on the original thread but I thought it's worth a new thread:

Quote:
"Hello everybody,

For all of you who wait for the delayed Kingsburg Expansion, I have something very nice for you:

Andrea Chiarvesio, one of the designers of Kingsburg, gave me the permission to include a second "Expansion Preview" into my Java-Kingsburg.

If you check the variant-options of my new version 1.3 BETA, you can now choose if you want to use the original 5 rows of the building sheet, or an extended building sheet with 2 brand new rows! These new rows are one of the modular additions of the official expansion.

You can download it here: http://mitglied.lycos.de/thunderfall/

But please mind the following notes:

-I implemented the buildings with the functions and english texts the designer sent me, but I did not receive the official images, so the extended building sheet is selfmade by me, without the correct fonts or pictures. And without great photoshop skills, I have to add...

-The extended building sheet and all texts that were included with the new buildings are in german and english ONLY (german translation was done by me, too), so if you select another language and use all 7 rows, these parts of the program will suddenly be english.

-The A.I. is propably worse than ever, as I had to change their internal structure and was not able to make them very good yet.

-If you use both Expansion Previews, one of the new buildings works differently than printed on the sheet. I did not state this in the program as it would normally be written in the manual. Andrea sent me the additional rule:

"PLEASE NOTE: Military Academy and Soldier Tokens
If you’re playing with expansion sets #1 and #5, roll a d3 (d6/2) for the Military Academy (roll the dice after choosing the Soldier Token)"


Okay, now feel free and test the new version and the new buildings. And of course, post your opinions, or suggenstions, or bugs you found in the program.

Nice greetings,

Thomas "
4 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Evan Stegman
United States
Minneapolis
MN
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
The new rows:

1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Gláucio Reis
Brazil
Rio de Janeiro
RJ
flag msg tools
designer
mbmbmbmbmb
I really like the previously implemented module, but I don't think I will ever use this new one. The first row immensely complicates the decision tree, and I can see it inducing some serious analysis paralysis. In the second row, the Military Academy is useless with the first module, or possibly overpowered if you allow it to be used anyway (replacing a token with a higher value of the die).
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Mike Holyoak
United States
Idaho Falls
Idaho
flag msg tools
Designer Wannabe
badge
mbmbmbmbmb
WoW!
That's awesome.
I can't wait for the expansion.
Thanks!!
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Galen Ciscell
United States
Tacoma
Washington
flag msg tools
designer
Check out my game, Atlantis Rising! :)
mbmbmbmbmb
Whelp, I tried out the top row (supplemented by the Wizard's Guild and a failed bid to make it to the Cathedral) on the Java game. I built 3 of the four production buildings and used the "proceeds" to erect most of the religious row, while protecting myself with the Wizard's Guild. And I won. Barely. Woot!

I hope we get to see more previews of the expansion!

Galen
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
John W
United States
Sacramento
California
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
WOW!!!

What excellent work, Thomas!

Andrea - thanks so much for giving a preview of the expansion - I've been really interested in it, and love the sneak-peeks!

I think the Sawmill/Quarry line is a fantastic idea.
I'm not so sold on the Military Academy line (it seems much too costly for the benefits). But that might change with variant King's Soldier roll rules, and maybe the new cards/roles/events in the expansion would make normal soldiers harder to come by, so this line would become more playable....?
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Chris Linneman
Canada
Vancouver
BC
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
This looks great! As a translation note, I would have used "Makeshift defenses" instead of "Ad-libbed defenses". Ad-libbing is usually associated with speech or performance rather than combat!
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Chris Linneman
Canada
Vancouver
BC
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
GSReis wrote:
I really like the previously implemented module, but I don't think I will ever use this new one. The first row immensely complicates the decision tree, and I can see it inducing some serious analysis paralysis. In the second row, the Military Academy is useless with the first module, or possibly overpowered if you allow it to be used anyway (replacing a token with a higher value of the die).


I really like the Mint row as it injects enough gold into the economy to make the Cathedral row viable. This combines with the Goldsmith's ability to recruit soldiers with gold to protect your valuable Cathedral row buildings (or Mint row buildings, if it is inserted at the top).

If you are playing with Analysis Paralysis prone players, the Mint row could complicate decision-making but I would not recommend playing Kingsburg at all with players who need to calculate every permutation before making a move.

Question: Where do you insert the building rows? The Java version has the Mint at the top and the Military Academy at the bottom. Is this official? This of course matters when determining a building to be destroyed as a result of winter battles.

I agree the Military Academy row seems underpowered. Ad-libbed defenses are good, but I can never imagine using the Recruiting Center without the Barracks. The Training Camp is an expensive +1 battle with conditions attached. And the Military Academy is chancy in the normal game, but very good (+1-3 battle) in the variant game.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Thomas Arnold
Germany
Griesheim
Hessen
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
Hi there,

QBert80 wrote:
Question: Where do you insert the building rows? The Java version has the Mint at the top and the Military Academy at the bottom. Is this official? This of course matters when determining a building to be destroyed as a result of winter battles.


Yes, this layout wasn´t chosen by me - it was Andrea who gave me the instruction to put the new rows exactly where they are now. So you can call it official.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Andrea Chiarvesio
Italy
Torino
Piemonte
flag msg tools
designer
mbmbmbmbmb
QBert80 wrote:
This looks great! As a translation note, I would have used "Makeshift defenses" instead of "Ad-libbed defenses". Ad-libbing is usually associated with speech or performance rather than combat!


Thanks for the suggestion!

Actually, the names and the text you find there are due to my average English skills... the English language publisher, Fantasy Flight, will very likely improve the texts, so I will tell them about your suggestion (I did not known the word "makeshift" until 5 minutes ago...).

About the military academy row... well it had to go at the bottom of the chart, so it could not be overpowered since it's the less likely to be destroyed. Don't underestimate it. Playing with the soldier tokens is a very good line, and it works pretty well with a few governors that will increase your "+2" tokens supply, and when you can hire a soldier by paying just 1 "+2" token then you can afford more risky building strategies... I may agree that added "as it is" to the current game it may seem underpowered.

Andrea
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
David K.
United States
Pflugerville
Texas
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
In addtion to "makeshift" here are some other possibilities:

Temporary
Provisional
Stopgap
Alternative
Emergency

I think I like Provisional the best of those. It has more of a military connotation.


1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Gláucio Reis
Brazil
Rio de Janeiro
RJ
flag msg tools
designer
mbmbmbmbmb
tanis wrote:
About the military academy row... well it had to go at the bottom of the chart

Does it mean that the new rows will be printed separately? I thought they would print the whole building sheets with the new rows added. It would certainly look much better. But if they are separate, will the rules allow to add just one of them?
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Thomas Arnold
Germany
Griesheim
Hessen
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
Version 1.3.1 uploaded

- There was a huge bug in the soldier tokens - the values were computed wrong. This resulted in wrong values of the battle strength when using soldier tokens
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
John W
United States
Sacramento
California
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
tanis wrote:
About the military academy row... well it had to go at the bottom of the chart, so it could not be overpowered since it's the less likely to be destroyed.

I don't get this "more defended line" logic.
While it might break a tiebreaker, it only comes up in the situation where you have 2 lines that have the same level of building when you lose a battle.
In my experience, that's rare. More often, you have one line that has the highest-built building, and it's destroyed.
In that situation, this line being "more defended" doesn't come into play at all - so it's a pretty small benefit for the line, IMO.

Quote:
Don't underestimate it. Playing with the soldier tokens is a very good line, and it works pretty well with a few governors that will increase your "+2" tokens supply, and when you can hire a soldier by paying just 1 "+2" token then you can afford more risky building strategies... I may agree that added "as it is" to the current game it may seem underpowered.
I haven't yet played with the new line, but I'm thinking: (mental playtesting)

I sure hope there are some governors and/or other cards that pump up this line's effectivess, because if you agree that it is underpowered (compared to, say, the Embassy line's ability to get another victory point with each +2 marker), then it will REQUIRE some additional cards to be in play just to be balanced with the others.

If the only governor card that makes it more playable is one that gives more +2 tokens, than that governor would be helping the Embassy line WAY more....
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Galen Ciscell
United States
Tacoma
Washington
flag msg tools
designer
Check out my game, Atlantis Rising! :)
mbmbmbmbmb
reapersaurus wrote:
I haven't yet played with the new line, but I'm thinking: (mental playtesting)


I have played the new line(s), half a dozen times now, both in the Java version and in person. And I have won with them every time. I think you will find that if you actually play with them, they are not underpowered at all.

The Military Academy row is an incredibly cheap way to get a decent defense going - early on with Ad-libbed Defenses [I agree this name needs help], mid to late game with the Training Camp, and finally with the Military Academy itself - meaning you can get by without buying to the Wizard's Guild or Fortress (I usually just pick up the Guard Tower, Blacksmith, and Pallisade and I do fine in battle).

This leaves a ton of resources free to invest in the Mint row, which in turn helps you invest in the Cathedral Row (and win the game). The Goldsmith, I will add, is another way to stay strong in battle without relying on the Wizard's Guild or Fortress rows, especially if you get the Mint up and running.

At any rate, I would encourage everyone to try out the new building rows, either in the Java game, or by printing them out and using them in a face to face game, before making a judgement.

Peace,
Galen
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
John W
United States
Sacramento
California
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
I will be playing with them in the future, but considering it's only been out a couple of days, I can mentally playtest them quicker.
(and winning against the AI is no confirmation of a line's strengths - it would be hard to lose to it IMO).

Unless I'm mis-hearing you, you say the Military Academy row (along with the typical Guard Tower, Blacksmith, and Pallisade's +3 total) is all you need to survive?

But once the enemies get past 5, the Military line only gives you +1 guaranteed (and that's only if you don't bulk up with Soldiers). The Military Academy is just as likely to whiff on the 2nd roll.

I just don't see how +1 and a chancy dice roll (requiring FOUR buildings to be built) is enough to risk your biggest buildings on.

I agree with you that judgment should be reconsidered after trying the line out, but in my experience, relying solely on practical playtesting is misleading when there are dice rolls involved (i.e. if the King's roll is crappy & your Military Academy rolls high, then the line looks stupendous; but if the Academy whiffs then the line's strength looks radically different).
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Galen Ciscell
United States
Tacoma
Washington
flag msg tools
designer
Check out my game, Atlantis Rising! :)
mbmbmbmbmb
Well, in the abstract, the Military Academy is a toss-up, sure, but it's likely (i.e. is statistically probable) to improve bad rolls; and if the original roll wasn't so bad, then you should be fine anyway.

Let's say it's Year 5. You have the Palisade, Blacksmith, and Guard Tower Built, along with the entire Military Academy row. At the end of Autumn you have one soldier (from your Goldsmith, hopefully) so you get another one from your Training Camp, bringing you to 2. You get another 3 for your low-cost combat buildings, bringing you to 5. Now then, you're still in trouble if a 9 comes up, but luckily if it's the Demon, you've built the Church with all the gold you saved not building the Wizard's Guild. So you're at 6 against the 9 Demon or 5 against the 9 Dragon (which are your worst-case scenarios). The Dragon is really your worst-case, although carries a lesser penalty (usually losing your best building at the end of the game will cost you more than the 5 VP you lose for losing to the Dragon).

At any rate, you need a 4 to tie the Dragon (winning would be great, but let's just focus on not losing). If we want to look at this statistically, on a single die roll you have a 1/2 (50%) chance of surviving. On two die rolls, however, you have a 3/4 (75%) chance. Not assured, but not exactly a long-shot. If you're up against anything BUT the Dragon, your odds get even better (the 7 Barbarians or 8 Demons are practically a sure thing). And this all assumes you haven't dumped any resources (including +2 tokens, thanks to your Recruiting Center) into buying soldiers.

At any rate, if you want a strategy that ensures you win the final battle, without ever buying soldiers, stick with the serious combat rows (Wizards Guild and Fortress), but if you're willing to take a (small) risk, the Military Academy can save you a lot of resources to spend elsewhere.

Galen
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
John W
United States
Sacramento
California
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
gciscell wrote:
Well, in the abstract, the Military Academy is a toss-up, sure, but it's likely (i.e. is statistically probable) to improve bad rolls; and if the original roll wasn't so bad, then you should be fine anyway.

Let's say it's Year 5.

, but if you're willing to take a (small) risk, the Military Academy can save you a lot of resources to spend elsewhere.
Great post.

I agree with your analysis (game situation numbers).

The problem is, the entire Military Academy only contributed ONE Soldier to your game, unless the second roll is higher than the King's roll.

My concern with the military line is - as you say above - if the King rolls high, then you're probably fine anyway. But so is everyone else!
Except you wasted those resources, and most importantly - took 4 precious building phases to do so!

If the military line is dependent on a good roll, and the +3 typical defense buildings, and it has limiters (won't help you in the last 2 years or if you have more than 2 Soldiers), then it seems to me to have failed at its primary reason to be in the game - to provide a cheap defense option.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Galen Ciscell
United States
Tacoma
Washington
flag msg tools
designer
Check out my game, Atlantis Rising! :)
mbmbmbmbmb
Well, without getting into a terribly lengthy defense of the row (OK, I'm going to...), let me just say that I don't see it as a waste of building phases - the buildings still get you victory points and I usually find time to build enough of the Mint row and Cathedral row to win. In addition, while not useful in the late game, Ad-libbed Defenses is cheap and useful early on. (I'll concede that the Recruiting Center doesn't do much for me).

The thing about the Military Academy is that it can occasionally net you the extra VP for the biggest army (if, say, you roll a 5-6 while the king send 1-2 soldiers), but I don't really see that as the point. The point is to make sure you don't lose (and usually win) in the Winter.

Again, is it as good as the Wizard's Guild row or even the Fortress row? Well, no, if you want to compare straight combat power (or VPs). But then again it also runs you far fewer resources. Resources that can be put toward big ticket buildings in the Mint or Cathedral rows.

So I would argue it does fulfill its purpose to provide a cheap defense option - but you get what you pay for. You won't be taking home that extra VP for the biggest army every year (although you might on a lucky roll!), but you're not likely to have your buildings sacked or resources plundered either.

I hate to come back to this, but I think that the best litmus test is to actually play the row a half dozen times and see how you do - not even if you win, but where your VP total ends up. And certainly try this out in a face to face game (as the new Java AI is pretty limited). I'm assuming this is what Andreas and Lucca did (playtesting) before deciding on the final cost/benefit ratio.

Peace,
Galen

 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Johnny Rotten
msg tools
One suggestion and one question that is a suggestion:

Suggestion: The Ok button at Stage Seven (that is, when recruiting soldiers) should be moved to the right, to avoid clicking it by mistake.
For example this is already implemented when you choose #6, you see that the button is moved and it says "don't use #6".

Question: How do I use the Statue (re-roll) ???
It would be nice to have a button next to the dice if you have the Statue, in case you want or don't want to do a re-roll.

Thanks

P.S.: If I want to translate it to Spanish is there a text file??
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Thomas Arnold
Germany
Griesheim
Hessen
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
computerhate wrote:
Suggestion: The Ok button at Stage Seven (that is, when recruiting soldiers) should be moved to the right, to avoid clicking it by mistake.
For example this is already implemented when you choose #6, you see that the button is moved and it says "don't use #6".


This is a good suggestion - I want to add this to some info-windows, too. Thank you!

computerhate wrote:
Question: How do I use the Statue (re-roll) ???
It would be nice to have a button next to the dice if you have the Statue, in case you want or don't want to do a re-roll.


If you have the statue and all your dice show the same result (and you haven´t used it before), then a "Use Statue"-Button appears on the left of the "OK"-Button. This is another window where it is too easy to click through it and don´t notice there was an option to use.

Same thing with the chapel, except your total dice-value must be 7 or lower, and it appears to the right.


And: I don´t plan to include additional languages anymore... every change I implement in the program means just too much work for every language, and if I even don´t speak it (german, hessian and english are ok ;-) ), then I have to ask around every time, and wait for the answers, and have to include language-dependent graphics for every language etc. Sorry for that.

When I have the full expansion, and I succeed in adding it into the game, then I think about adding other languages and updating the "other" existant ones, but not sooner.

Nice greetings,

Thomas
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Johnny Rotten
msg tools

Cool And thanks for the prompt reply!
To be honest I've never seen the "use statue" button! LOL
I'll try to be more careful

Another suggestion: In the game one has to click lots of times the Ok button in the pop up windows, for example "computer player Cinna got a #2 token", "computer player Ortega got a #2 token"...
My suggestion is that this could be bypassed if you want to.

Or even better, just as I was typing this I got this idea I'm attaching:

Here the player got 2 wood and 1 token in this round, and I can see it there, unobtrusively
It could change from +2 to +0 after it has been added to his inventory, or stay at +2 but change to grayed out after it has been added to his inventory.


Finally, something that I don't know if it's a bug or a feature: When you have the King's invoice there's no undo when you build two buildings. You can undo the second one but not the first one.


P.S.: English isn't my native language, I hope I explained myself
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Tommy Dean
Australia
Earlwood
New South Wales
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
Playing version 1.3.1 but there seems to be a big problem.

If you change the characters playing level off of default the entire game freezes at the end of spring! You buy your first building and BLAM total freeze.

Any thoughts? I have been playing the earlier build with no noticable problems...but the new one seems troubled.

It is a great program and I thank you for the effort!

I hope someone though can help me out with the current concern please.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Thomas Arnold
Germany
Griesheim
Hessen
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
Hi there,

I just testet the newest version and didn´t encounter any problem...

Played with 4 players and 5 players, changed some A.I. to easy or medium, but I can continue with the game just fine and move on to summer (and finish the game without problems)

Can you give me some more information?

-What system do you have? Windows? Or another? (SHOULD run everywhere, but I only test on Windows)
- Can you try to enable / disable the grafic effects in the options menu, or maybe even the language, and see if this makes any difference?

I try to help, and hopefully we find a solution.

Nice greetings,

Thomas
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Tommy Dean
Australia
Earlwood
New South Wales
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
I am using Windows XP...but my friend on Vista reports the same trouble.

Game set up is 4p set to human-easy-normal-expert

options ticked are Sort by turn order and Save Settings

No variants used.

And as reported above, one season, I buy my building...FREEZE!

It also has some weird glitches in the screen after that...I have a screen shot but not sure how to upload it as an image to show you.

Oh...sometimes it freezes BEZFORE you actually buy the building.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
1 , 2  Next »   | 
Front Page | Welcome | Contact | Privacy Policy | Terms of Service | Advertise | Support BGG | Feeds RSS
Geekdo, BoardGameGeek, the Geekdo logo, and the BoardGameGeek logo are trademarks of BoardGameGeek, LLC.