Brian Bankler
United States
San Antonio
Texas
Modified Limited Rampage!
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[This review original posted on my blog. This review also doesn't bother discussing mechanics; which are nicely covered by other reviews.
I keep hearing Dominion compared to Race for the Galaxy. I suppose that's because they both a) are non-traditional card games and b) have a high number of decision points for a 20-30 minute game. Also c) hype from previews at the Gathering and other conventions (and BGN).
Comparing Dominion to Race isn't fair. You describe Race correctly only by using 'evar!' somewhere. Dominion? 'Fairly good.'
From a play/mechanics standpoint, I don't see much in common. Both have efficiency & engine building, but Race also has simultaneous selection aspect. Each game handles optimization differently, and I think that's the issue.
Dominion has scarcity. You have one action, one buy, and a five card hand limit. The action cards let you improve actions, money, cards, etc. Race (like San Juan) offers you "inconvenient plenty." In both games you have to get an engine going, but ...
Consider Spiderman, forced to decide between saving the city or Mary Jane. That's Race -- "You can buy X or Y ... but not both." In Dominion, much like in Hollywood, Spidey saves everyone, one then other. (BTW Peter, save Mary Jane first, thank me later).
Saving everyone keeps sequel options open; but it's a cop out. In Dominion (barring a reshuffle), the order doesn't matter.
The other way that Dominion suffers is a lack of tension. You get cards. You play an action (or a whole huge chain of actions, in some cases), you make a purchase (or a few). You discard cards, reshuffle and repeat. Every decision is incremental. There are no 'bombs', no game-shaking events that rock your world. No flipping over the scoring card, no calling a speculative trade hoping for a settle, no "must win this item in auction."
Just "action-purchase-discard-(shuffle)-repeat."
Now, Dominion rewards skill. In spades. The efficiency engine is tough work, and subtle. There's luck, but a skilled player often wins. Discovering the tricks and efficiencies intrigues me. I mean, this is my ballpark.
But I'm intrigued in theory much more than in practice. Without bombs, the game drags on. Worse yet, the winning player can drag out a game (unknowingly). And you have downtime. Losing is bad enough, but drawing a hand of crap and then having your opponent slap out 4 actions and then take 30 seconds (a lifetime in a fast-paced game) to decide how to split $8 between 3 purchases ... ugh. Sometimes the last 5 minutes drag.
I'm enjoying BSW but the experience moved Dominion from a tenative "looks interesting, buy" to a "don't need to purchase." BSW saves you all overhead (setting up, sorting, or shuffling) and now I'm not sure if I'll be annoyed by the actual setup.
I like Dominion; I respect the engine building.
But it's too repetitive to love.
Update -- November, 2010.
Now that Dominion has several expansions, I've decided to raise my rating of it up to an 8. There are several reasons:
1) There are a lot more decisions during a game. There still aren't "bombs," but I think the decision space is much more interesting, with many more deck types and combos. I like the new mechanics introduced in the expansions. (VP chips, duration cards, potions).
2) I do think that Prosperity's addition of colonies and platinums is a big deal, as know you can realistically have a different game length goals whenever they are in play.
In short, I think the engine building has gotten more interesting.
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Jennifer Schlickbernd
United States
Pasadena
California
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I plan to play it IRL. I think the reason you are missing the tension is because BSW minimizes the influence of shuffling the deck. So it seems like the cards that you get are essentially random, when in fact, they are very dependent on where you are in the shuffling process, particularly early in the game. It would help a lot if when you shuffled on BSW, there was a shuffling sound to remind you that was happening.
So I haven't rated the game even though I've played it 30 times on BSW because I think part of the experience that the designer expected is mostly missing in the online implementation. And until I have that experience (the experience he and the playtesters have had) I don't think I've experienced the entire game.
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Brian Bankler
United States
San Antonio
Texas
Modified Limited Rampage!
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I don't know. It's easy to tell from the BSW interface when a shuffle is coming up ... the count for # of cards left in each person's deck is right on the screen.
Just to be clear, I rate it a 7 right now (on BSW). I was much less impressed with my play IRL, but it was my first game. '7' is (for me) a good game, but not a Top 50 game.
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Tim Seitz
United States
Glen Allen
VA
Like water spilled on the ground, which cannot be recovered, so we must die. But God does not take away life; instead, he devises ways so that a banished person may not remain estranged from him. 2 Sam 14:14
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I think I will probably enjoy this game only on BSW. The amount of shuffling that goes on in a game is astounding. Makes me feel bad for the BSW servers. My fingers can imagine what it must be like.
And then to have to unshuffle all those cards and reset a real game? Uh uh. Not for me.
But on BSW, the game is great!
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John Brier
United States
Aventura
Florida
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I don't really see Race for the Galaxy as having "bombs" either.
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All Hail Knucklebeard!
Australia
Wodonga
Victoria
Thanks International SS for A Few Acres of Snow!
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Thanks for the review Brian.
First time I've seen a Comic Character Analogy in a non comic game review...awesome! 
That's one game off my wishlist until I find it at a gaming event and give it a try. That's another
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Jeff Kunkel
United States
Smithtown
New York
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Good review. Interetingly, I started in the same place as you with Dominion - "looks interesting, buy". However, after playing it on BSW Dominion quickly shot up to "must buy" for me. While there are no individual cards that are "bombs", a well made deck can result in combos that other players will see and think "Damn, that was huge." In fact, I think there's MORE potential for plays like this than in Race for the Galaxy. Most of the time you see the huge plays coming in Race, such as when someone has lots of goods on their worlds and they have great produce powers, or if their military score is very high. One never knows if a killer combo is coming in Dominion.
I also love the incremental nature of the game, and early buying decisions have a big impact on how the game plays out. In fact, I do not find it repetitive at all as each turn leaves me thinking what the best purchase is with the money I have on hand, and this decision is affected by what I have bought previously and what others have bought. It's this last point that I think will make the game more enjoyable face to face than on BSW - it's much easier to keep track of your opponent's buys in a live game, and this is fairly important.
Finally, I love the fact that it's a customizable deck game that doesn't require any additional purchases and in which all players start on a level playing field. That is a real rarity.
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Brian Bankler
United States
San Antonio
Texas
Modified Limited Rampage!
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verandi wrote: I don't really see Race for the Galaxy as having "bombs" either.
The simultaneous action selection has a repeated 'mini-bomb' effect. The speculative trade (hoping for a settle) is either a big win or big loss. Not incremental. There are some other specific situations. It's not as big a deal in Race as the two-share difference between first and third in Acquire (to use an example from the original article), but it's a pretty big deal.
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Asif Kazmi
Canada
Toronto
Ontario
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I'enjoyed it on BSW but I agree that it will probably be even better IRL. The reason is the lack of tactical feel on BSW, due to automation of shuffling, lack of perception of what cards the others are taking, etc.
IRL, you get a better feel for what is in your deck, and what is in others, than another world of analysis and strategic risk-taking will emerge, and the randomness will appear less.
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Massimiliano della Rovere
Italy
Pisa
Tuscany
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big luck in finding a card you need to recieve a final bonus and that is not held or drawn by another people.
just plain luck. no real plannable bombs in RttG.
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Alex Rockwell
United States
Bothell
Washington
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I cant decide whether race or dominion is better. But I'm pretty sure theyre both in the all time top 3
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M C
United States
Orem
Utah
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I wonder if playing it on BSW takes something out of the experience.
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I find lots of tension in this game. Usually something along the lines of, "Is he going to have enough for province this turn?" Or alternatively, "Am I going to have enough for province this turn?"
And while I wouldn't say that every single combination plays differently, there are certainly some cards and combinations that can make the game play in a completely new way. I have nearly 60 games on BSW and still find each one intriguing.
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Joseph
Spain
Today, we're all Spaniards!
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verandi wrote: I don't really see Race for the Galaxy as having "bombs" either.
I think I'd use the word "bubble" myself - Like building around a 6 cost development that you haven't gotten yet. Most of the time, there's a fair amount of anticipation as you wonder if the Dev you need is hiding somewhere as a production good. The bubble breaks when you learn whether or not your strategy is going to pay off. I've had times when chance or circumstance has dictated that my overarching plan was going to fail.
Respectfully
Falloutfan
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Teik Chooi Oh
United Kingdom
Chorley
Lancashire
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nice review Bankler (as I enjoy all Tao of Gaming ones) and good to have had that game with you on BSW.
Not played Dominion in real life yet, just over 40 games on BSW. For me, the 'bomb' is each round I can buy a Province (or more!) 
overall, both indeed quite different games but the ex-CCG player in me appreciates the fine tuning and 'control' of what I may be drawing more in Dominion than Race (still a fantastic game for me). 'Deck construction on the fly' as I heard it described is what I like about it
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K. Bailey
United States
Sacramento
California
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Bankler wrote: You describe Race correctly only by using 'evar!' somewhere. Best Super-San-Juan evar? 
Quote: In both games you have to get an engine going, but ...
Consider Spiderman, forced to decide between saving the city or Mary Jane. That's Race -- "You can buy X or Y ... but not both." In Dominion, much like in Hollywood, Spidey saves everyone, one then other. (BTW Peter, save Mary Jane first, thank me later).
Saving everyone keeps sequel options open; but it's a cop out. In Dominion (barring a reshuffle), the order doesn't matter.
Huh. Maybe if I read Spiderman comics I'd understand what you mean. However the phrase "barring a reshuffle" probably doesn't belong anywhere in a review of Dominion. Like, I'm pretty sure role selection in Race is meaningless since it's trivial to pick your action (barring the selections of other players).
I think perhaps BSW play can be misleading. There's no work in shuffling and drawing so maybe that is not felt so much, and it seems more like "I throw some stuff in, I get some stuff out," vs. "this next time through my deck I want this and this and this." Maybe BSW should pop up a big button when you need to reshuffle, so you have to click and watch a 2-second animation of shuffling before you can continue your turn.
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John Brier
United States
Aventura
Florida
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Bankler wrote: verandi wrote: I don't really see Race for the Galaxy as having "bombs" either. The simultaneous action selection has a repeated 'mini-bomb' effect. The speculative trade (hoping for a settle) is either a big win or big loss. Not incremental. There are some other specific situations. It's not as big a deal in Race as the two-share difference between first and third in Acquire (to use an example from the original article), but it's a pretty big deal.
Respectfully, I think your well known enthusiasm for Race is distorting your objectivity here (happens to all of us with our favorites).
You're stretching the definition of "bomb" to where it is functionally meaningless. Most good games (of which Race is one of them) have some form of tension, but this is not the same thing as a "bomb".
Race to me seems pretty obviously an incremental game. You even said it yourself: it is a sequence of "mini-bomb" events. I rest my case!!
My bottom line point was (and still is) that I don't think it makes sense to use the "bomb" concept to compare Race and Dominion.
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Jeff Kunkel
United States
Smithtown
New York
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Bankler wrote: verandi wrote: I don't really see Race for the Galaxy as having "bombs" either. The simultaneous action selection has a repeated 'mini-bomb' effect. The speculative trade (hoping for a settle) is either a big win or big loss. Not incremental.
I have to say I don't see it this way at all. Speculative trades are no bigger than the huge card plays in Dominion that can net you a 6 point Province and a 3 point Duchy on the same turn. A 9 VP buy in Dominion will generally have all the other players sweating.
Dominion and RftG share a very similar game progression, in my experience. They both start out pretty slow, but once your tableau/deck is well developed it practically explodes. In RftG you're suddenly developing, settling and/or 2x consuming at a tremendous rate, and in Dominion your deck is suddenly spitting out treasures and buys like there's no tomorrow.
The biggest difference I see bewteen the two is that the "big" plays come early in Race, when the gambles you take pay off (i.e. the speculative trade). Near the end the tableaus are well established and working in a predictable way. In Dominion the early game is more predictable with the game-making card synergies coming near the end. This is a logical consequence of the game designs. In RftG you're creating a permanent tableau that builds in power gradually over time. As a consequence, the role benefits have a greater impact in the early game, when your tableau offers fewer advantages. In Dominion you're drawing 5 new cards every turn with the more potent cards becoming more prevalent in your deck as the game progresses. Also, since you have fewer action cards in your deck in the early game you have fewer synergies. Thus, the "bombs" tend to happen later rather than earlier, which is the reverse of RftG.
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Andy Stout
United States
La Jolla
CA
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verandi wrote: Bankler wrote: verandi wrote: I don't really see Race for the Galaxy as having "bombs" either. The simultaneous action selection has a repeated 'mini-bomb' effect. The speculative trade (hoping for a settle) is either a big win or big loss. Not incremental. There are some other specific situations. It's not as big a deal in Race as the two-share difference between first and third in Acquire (to use an example from the original article), but it's a pretty big deal. Respectfully, I think your well known enthusiasm for Race is distorting your objectivity here (happens to all of us with our favorites). You're stretching the definition of "bomb" to where it is functionally meaningless. Most good games (of which Race is one of them) have some form of tension, but this is not the same thing as a "bomb". Race to me seems pretty obviously an incremental game. You even said it yourself: it is a sequence of "mini-bomb" events. I rest my case!! My bottom line point was (and still is) that I don't think it makes sense to use the "bomb" concept to compare Race and Dominion.
I'd just like to add that I wholeheartedly agree with this; while I haven't played Dominion yet, I was shocked to see it criticized as being without "bombs" as compared to Race for the Galaxy. I don't know about Dominion, but in terms of trying to emulate the CCG feeling, Race for the Galaxy mostly fails for me because of a lack of bombs, a lack of real INTERESTING combos (using cards that make developments cheap and then playing lots of developments...is NOT a combo) or game-changing moves coming out of nowhere.
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Mac Mcleod
United States
houston
Texas
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1) It's not just buying a Provence-- it's buying it just a little bit earlier than anyone expected because you got a lucky draw. And it's buying the first Provence-- the entire tone of the game shifts.
2) RTTG doesn't appeal to me as much as Dominion which appealed to me instantly (and kept me up til 2am three nights in a row feeling horrible the next day).
3) Sleeves are going to be mandatory and all the shuffling is going to be a real burden. The trade off of BSW vs real life tho is that BSW absolutely won't forgive you if you make a mistake. I've lost several turns this way. It doesn't say.. "Hey, you have 8 copper -- sure you want to end your buy phase now???"
4) Since you are sleeving anyway... the game *screams* for customized player cards. Just off the top of my head i can see a fantasy theme
Magic Path - Attack card just played goes to the discard pile.
Alchemist - Transmute one copper to Gold.
Wizard - Draw 2 cards, Discard wizard and attack card just played against you.
White Witch - +Action, +Card +Discard Curse.
Enchanted Glade - +2 Cards, at endgame- Upgrades one Estate to a Duchy.
Monsters - Turn over top card of each discard pile, if a coin, take it. Slain if any player shows an "Adventurer".
Elven Bargain - Give elven bargain to a player to take a card they just played.
Enchanted Sleep - Play from your hand to your discard pile to negate another player's card with a character on it as it is played.
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Jesse Dean
United States
Orlando
Florida
Pound for pound, the amoeba is the most vicious predator on Earth!
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Now that I have played it a bunch more, I have come to the conclusion that you are basically correct (after conveniently forgetting your original arguments.
 ) The down time is the biggest issue for me. Its not bad in heavier games because there is always something to think about. In games like Race you are CONSTANTLY involved. With Dominion you usually make your decision on what to buy pretty soon after you get your hand, and after that it is just a matter of waiting and waiting and waiting until it comes around to you, you play your cards, and draw your next hand.
I am still willing to play it with the locals but I would much rather play the Gathering Storm (which has been a delight) or something heavier and more interesting.
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Eric O. LEBIGOT
France
Paris
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doubtofbuddha wrote: In games like Race you are CONSTANTLY involved. With Dominion you usually make your decision on what to buy pretty soon after you get your hand, and after that it is just a matter of waiting and waiting and waiting until it comes around to you, you play your cards, and draw your next hand.
Isn't it interesting/useful to also spend time looking at how your opponents are making progress? In Dominion, I appreciate the sense of timing given by what your opponents do ("he's been getting a lot of Gold, lately; how come I'm still so poor?"): this allows me to constantly compare the power of my deck to theirs, and prompts me to check how they succeed in obtaining interesting cards. This contributes to the "density" of Dominion, for me, as I can't just concentrate on my own hand. (That said, I too consider Race for the Galaxy a more satisfying experience because I feel it is "wider" in terms of reflection, in a way you beautifully described in another thread.)
I haven't played Dominion enough to know, but is the memorization aspect also important ("what did I put in my deck?")? this would be something that could keep a player involved in the game...
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Brian Bankler
United States
San Antonio
Texas
Modified Limited Rampage!
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Bankler wrote:
I like Dominion; I respect the engine building.
But it's too repetitive to love.
Now that Dominion has several expansions, I've decided to raise my rating of it up to an 8. There are several reasons:
1) There are a lot more decisions during a game. There still aren't "bombs," but I think the decision space is much more interesting, with many more deck types and combos. I like the new mechanics introduced in the expansions. (VP chips, duration cards, potions).
2) I do think that Prosperity's addition of colonies and platinums is a big deal, as know you can realistically have a different game length goals whenever they are in play.
In short, I think the engine building has gotten more interesting.
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Posted Sat Oct 25, 2008 11:48 pm
