Dirk Gently
United States
Norman
Oklahoma
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I played my first game of Brass last night and I was impressed. When I woke up this morning, I was still thinking about how the game went, what I could have done differently...I was ready to play again, and hopefully soon.
I had already seen in on the shelves of my FLGS for $58 and change, but I naturally wanted to peruse the internet vendors to see who would have the lowest deal. Went to Thoughthammer.com, and....no discount...huh? They always have things for 30% or more off. OK.
Check Newspiel.com. Same story.
Troll and Toad. Same. Full retail.
What the hell?
I went to Boulder Games and my suspicions were confirmed. I applaud Boulder Games for posting the following remark on their Brass page:
"There is a very good reason not to buy this game - the price is fixed. If the fixed-price of $59.99 was a suggested retail and the game was distributed by Rio Grande, Z-man or any other distributor who believes competition and free enterprise are good things instead of something to be stomped-out, we would be competing with other online retailers to sell it for about $34.80.
The American distributor will not sell to us because we don't fix prices, so we have to go through two "middlemen" and pay international shipping to get the game which causes us to have to charge almost as much as the fixed price. Retailers who agree to fix their prices are making $30-$41 profit on this game!
You can stop the spread of price-fixing by boycotting games produced by Mayfair Games and games distributed by FRED distribution. You can do even more to stop the spread of price-fixing by boycotting the online retailers who, out of cowardice and greed, sell at the dictated prices.
If you just have to buy this game and buy it from us, at least you will only be supporting one price-fixer (Warfrog) instead of three (Warfrog, FRED, and a spineless retailer)."
Bravo. Don't get me wrong. Brass is a great game, and I enjoyed it thoroughly, but $60 is too much for this game. There is not a single physical component of the game that supports such a high cost. Cardboard tiles, simple black and orange cubes, adequate card stock, cheap money chips, slightly bigger than average game board, but not enormous.
I bought my copy of Railroad Tycoon for $40. I would estimate that RRT has twice the production value of Brass, yet the price has been fixed at $60. I won't be buying Brass, and I urge anyone who hasn't bought it to avoid doing so. Price floors may be legal, but it doesn't make them right.
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Breno K.
Brazil
BrasÃlia
Distrito Federal
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Or buy it from europe, like I did. I don't think there's any price-fixing in europe.
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Guy Riessen
United States
petaluma
California
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Buy directly from Warfrog, get in on the Treefrog line which fantastic and directly support the game designer--Treefrog has already had 3 fantastic games released in the new line.
Unfortunately Brass isn't available directly from Martin Wallace, so if you want it you have to support the price fixing. I personally hate the whole middleman process we have in our economic system with the necessity of supporting distributers AND retailers of any kind. They're all bad, in that the make their living by sucking the blood off the creators. If you can you should ALWAYS directly support the creators of the products you like, not these parasites that provide nothing.
A game designer is forced to sell their prouct at half or less that the value of the game, so that everyone else can take their cut. The upshot of this horrible mechanism is that the designers usually cannot afford to create their work full-time, so you get fewer games which are undoubtedly less developed than they would be otherwise. Many publishers are making a compromise in having some of their orders pre-sale items with some discounting, but far less than what they are FORCED to accept by distributers. That way they can make up some of the deficiency.
Price fixing is an effort by the designers and publishers to keep from losing quite as much money as they normally do by the unfortunate demands of the distributers and retailers--but unfortunately it is seen as somehow unfair by the public, even though it universally means more money going to the people who actually create their amazing games for you. Finally the internet has allowed some of this money to go directly to the people who make the games for you to play, by mitigating the necessity of some of the distribution channels. It used to be that the only way to get things into the hands of consumers was to sell in retail stores, and the only way to get things to retailers (at least ones not local to you) was to use distributers.
Now if it was the distributers that were responsible for the price-fixing, well that would be a terrible thing. But the price-fixing we're seeing helps us get more and better games. And although I like Boulder, and have supported them for years, this tremendous whining about price-fixing is not only ridiculous, but Jim should be ashamed. Talk about biting the hands that feed you. Unless he's going to go out and start designing games to sell in his own store, he should shut the hell up.
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Dirk Gently
United States
Norman
Oklahoma
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Sprydle wrote: Buy directly from Warfrog, get in on the Treefrog line which fantastic and directly support the game designer--Treefrog has already had 3 fantastic games released in the new line.
Unfortunately Brass isn't available directly from Martin Wallace, so if you want it you have to support the price fixing. I personally hate the whole middleman process we have in our economic system with the necessity of supporting distributers AND retailers of any kind. They're all bad, in that the make their living by sucking the blood off the creators. If you can you should ALWAYS directly support the creators of the products you like, not these parasites that provide nothing.
A game designer is forced to sell their prouct at half or less that the value of the game, so that everyone else can take their cut. The upshot of this horrible mechanism is that the designers usually cannot afford to create their work full-time, so you get fewer games which are undoubtedly less developed than they would be otherwise. Many publishers are making a compromise in having some of their orders pre-sale items with some discounting, but far less than what they are FORCED to accept by distributers. That way they can make up some of the deficiency.
Price fixing is an effort by the designers and publishers to keep from losing quite as much money as they normally do by the unfortunate demands of the distributers and retailers--but unfortunately it is seen as somehow unfair by the public, even though it universally means more money going to the people who actually create their amazing games for you. Finally the internet has allowed some of this money to go directly to the people who make the games for you to play, by mitigating the necessity of some of the distribution channels. It used to be that the only way to get things into the hands of consumers was to sell in retail stores, and the only way to get things to retailers (at least ones not local to you) was to use distributers.
Now if it was the distributers that were responsible for the price-fixing, well that would be a terrible thing. But the price-fixing we're seeing helps us get more and better games. And although I like Boulder, and have supported them for years, this tremendous whining about price-fixing is not only ridiculous, but Jim should be ashamed. Talk about biting the hands that feed you. Unless he's going to go out and start designing games to sell in his own store, he should shut the hell up.
If the price floors were being implemented by the designers, then I might understand, but they are not. Publishers and Distributors are setting the price floors. Only in rare cases (like Martin Wallace and War/Tree Frog) where the deisgner IS the publisher, can I see this as justified. However, when you also have FRED Distribution setting price floors for retailers, then none of that extra profit is making it's way back to the designers, and that is what's happening with Brass. If you pay $60 in the US for Brass, that extra money isn't going to Martin Wallace. It's going to FRED Distribution and/or the retailer (either online or FLGS).
Jim shouldn't be ashamed for what he's posted. He's turning away an opportunity for extra cash in his pocket based on his beliefs of economic competition and his own right to set the price he wants to in his own business.
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Eric Knauer
United States
Heathrow
Florida
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jwilhm wrote:
Bravo. Don't get me wrong. Brass is a great game, and I enjoyed it thoroughly, but $60 is too much for this game. There is not a single physical component of the game that supports such a high cost. Cardboard tiles, simple black and orange cubes, adequate card stock, cheap money chips, slightly bigger than average game board, but not enormous.
Obviously more to the picture- see prices for rare, out-of-print games with cheap components.
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Russell Grieshop
United States
Tampa
Florida
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This is a topic that I spend a lot of time thinking about. Sprydle makes many statements here that I'd like to respond to, but I'd like to start by saying - this isn't directed towards Sprydle. Instead, this is directed to the general sentiments I see expressed here pretty regularly, and I'm hoping that my perspective might help others see this a bit more objectively. So - no offense intended, but Sprydle gave me a lot of good stuff to respond to.
Sprydle wrote: Buy directly from Warfrog, get in on the Treefrog line which fantastic and directly support the game designer--Treefrog has already had 3 fantastic games released in the new line.
I always think supporting the publisher directly is a great idea - it maximizes their profit and allows them to publish more games - but... ideally, almost every publisher will ask you to check first with your friendly local game store. If you don't have one, or they can't get it, the next best bet (from a publishers perspective) is to buy it from them.
Quote: Unfortunately Brass isn't available directly from Martin Wallace, so if you want it you have to support the price fixing. I personally hate the whole middleman process we have in our economic system with the necessity of supporting distributers AND retailers of any kind. They're all bad, in that the make their living by sucking the blood off the creators. If you can you should ALWAYS directly support the creators of the products you like, not these parasites that provide nothing.
As a publisher, I realize that there isn't a lot I can do to encourage you to think about this differently. As a gamer, and as someone who knows how this industry works, I can tell you that our hobby depends on new gamers. Everyone in the publishing side of this knows that the only way the hobby will continue is by bringing new customers to the table. There are several reasons for this, but as in any niche market segment, new customers represent new funds for new games.
There are very few creators who could afford the tremendous cost of publishing a game. I know many game designers who have done this, but the next step is making that game available to gamers. While there are online sites (like this site, especially - see Zombie in my Pocket) that might make it easier for designers to self publish, that won't work for the vast majority of games being made. Check out the top 100 games on this site. How many of those were self-published by a game designer? Go take a look. How far down do you go before you find your first self published games? (Off hand, I'd say it is pretty far down the list).
It is very simple. Without new gamers, the hobby will be crippled. It won't die, because the Europeans will keep making games, but the market on this side of the pond is very dependent on the three tier model.
We want new gamers. The way to get new gamers is through supporting the FLGS. Those game stores don't buy direct from the publisher, because they'd need to buy in larger quantities. Hence the creation of the distribution channel. Distributors buy in large quantities from publishers, and sell in small quantities to retailers. Most distributors sell in small quantities to both FLGS and online retailers. Do you really think that any but the largest online retailers actually have stock on hand? Where do you think they get their product?
If you have another model besides the FLGS to create new gamers, I'm sure the entire industry would love to hear it. With every FLGS that closes (and the numbers are alarming), the hobby creeps that much closer to it becoming much harder for gamers like us to get the games we want.
Quote: A game designer is forced to sell their prouct at half or less that the value of the game, so that everyone else can take their cut.
This is not a true statement. No designer is every forced to sell their product at all. There are very few game designers who sell their product directly. I personally know some of the designers who do, but there aren't many. For a designer who wants to self-publish, they face many significant hurdles. You can find lots of discussion on this site about those hurdles. It really is simple economics. The designer needs to print a large quantity of a game to get the price down, and then they'd need to have some way to get that game in the hands of potential customers. The setup and manufacturing and shipping charges are huge. Very few designers can do this on any scale large enough to get noticed.
To be clear - no game designer is *ever* forced to sell their game for half or less the value. Every game designer is fully capable of self-publishing. Why would you assume that there is any coercion? Again, I personally know (and am friends with) many self-published designers who have developed their own network of stores (online or otherwise) to sell their games. I also know that companies like Cambridge Game Company http://www.boardgamegeek.com/publisher/4569 are helping designers get their games published. Every designer can choose to do this on their own.
There is a saying about this - "Want to turn a big pile of money into a small pile of money? Start a game company".
Quote: The upshot of this horrible mechanism is that the designers usually cannot afford to create their work full-time, so you get fewer games which are undoubtedly less developed than they would be otherwise.
This is not a true statement. The designers are free to publish and sell their games for whatever they like. Nobody forces them to have a game company publish for them.
Almost all designers who don't self publish get paid a royalty for their game design. That's the way the market works. What makes more money for the designer is selling more copies of a game. The best way we've seen so far to sell more copies of a game is to have someone else bear the costs of set up and manufacturing. Do you have any idea what this stuff costs?
Next time you open up a game, look at every component. There is a fixed set up charge for every single piece of that game. The plastic tray with the components? Do you know what that, alone, costs to set up? That's not even a component, but there are still set up charges.
How many game designers do you know out there who can afford just the setup charges to get a game professional published? Or who have the confidence in their own game to take the financial risk? I know a few, but for the most part, they sell their designs to publishers.
Quote: Many publishers are making a compromise in having some of their orders pre-sale items with some discounting, but far less than what they are FORCED to accept by distributers. That way they can make up some of the deficiency.
Again, this statement is not true. No publisher has ever been forced to sell to a distributor. Very few designers work directly with a distributor, but almost all professional publishers do. It is one of the hurdles a game company must surpass in order to start making more money. The question all new publishers can choose to ask themselves is - how do I get into distribution? But they are welcome to avoid the three tier system and sell direct to consumers or direct to retail outlets.
To my knowledge, most of the publishers who do pre-sales or pre-orders on items are companies that are only going to print a limited number of copies of a game, and need to get the money up front to make it worth while to print the game. The issue that must pre-sales/pre-orders publishers are facing is - can I afford to take the risk to print this game, unless I know there is enough interest in the market to help me make back my costs? Thus the P500 strategies that some companies have developed.
To be honest - no publisher is forced to accept distribution agreements. But the fact is, if they want to sell more games, they'll *want* to do it. Distributors rarely approach publishers asking if they could resell their games. It actually works the other way.
There's another side to this, too. While I am sure some retailers don't mind having self-published items in their store, frankly, very few retailers are going to make much money by reselling a self-published game. Even if they did decide to sell a designers game for them, they'd expect to pay that designer half retail - and then would probably have to work extra hard to sell that game, for perhaps the same margin that other games sell for with less effort.
Here's the real deal - retail prices in this market are generally 2x wholesale prices - so if a designer/publisher wants to sell on the market, they have to accept roughly half price for their game, unless they sell direct to consumers.
Quote: Price fixing is an effort by the designers and publishers to keep from losing quite as much money as they normally do by the unfortunate demands of the distributers and retailers--but unfortunately it is seen as somehow unfair by the public, even though it universally means more money going to the people who actually create their amazing games for you.
Very few companies are actually doing anything like price fixing. While there is some curiosity in terms of how this might all work out, very few companies do it. In our specific market segment (hobby board and card games), I can only think of two, maybe three companies that are doing this.
It's really very simple.
Most designers make their money from royalties. They are rewarded if more copies sell. They turn over the headaches of publishing and selling their game to a company that is specifically geared to do so. If they are lucky, a lot of people will buy and like their game, and they'll be able to make more games. Ultimately, this is where my interest lies - I want more game designers making more cool games for me to play with my friends. But I understand the economics, and they are harsh.
Most publishers cover the initial expenses, and maintain relationships with distributors, retailers, and consumers. They get perhaps 50% (or less) of retail, but at the end of the day, there isn't a lot little margin left over. Have you ever thought about how much money it takes to print a copy of a game? Certainly the DIY crowd can tell you. It's expensive. Publishers make more money if there are more customers for a product, so they are incented to do things that help create more customers. More customers mean bigger print runs which means reduced costs to manufacture, which helps leave a bit more money for marketing and such.
Most distributors work on very small percentages. They make their money by reselling with small uplift to the retailer, and they exist so that the retailer doesn't need to buy 6 or 12 copies of a game. Distributors consolidate orders and put together custom shipments for every one of their customers. A certain percentage of those orders are "Just in time" orders for online retailers who don't warehouse, but the bulk of those orders are going to be sent to FLGS who have ordered specific things for their customers and for their inventory.
Most retailers have paid around 50% (or perhaps a bit more) off of retail for a game, and they will sell for whatever price the market will bear. We live in a world where we walk into a grocery store, and simply buy the products there at the price posted without thinking about it, but we walk into a game store, make our purchasing decisions there, and then walk out and buy the product online. Brick and mortar retailers have large fixed expenses to maintain. The biggest expense is simply creating a retail space, generally half of which doesn't generate any revenue, since it is demo/gaming space. The FLGS must also cover the expenses of utilities, insurance, salaries for their workers, etc. For retail there is generally very little margin at the end of the day.
The tiers - designer to publisher to distributor to retailer to customer - don't make a lot of money per game - each step makes a little money, and in the end, games are brought to market. The way any of those entities make money is through having customers, and having more customers means making more money.
Which brings us to the key question - how do we get more gamers today than we had yesterday? How can we get more people playing games.
You may have a model that works. If so - please share it. So far, from what we've seen, the financial side of this business clearly understands that the reason why the FLGS is the cornerstone of this whole market is because of one simple fact. The FLGS helps to create new gamers. From the industry's perspective, bringing new gamers to the table is good, and so far a better model than the FLGS hasn't been discovered.
Quote: Finally the internet has allowed some of this money to go directly to the people who make the games for you to play, by mitigating the necessity of some of the distribution channels.
I'm just curious here - but who do you think the online retailers buy from? Especially the deeply discounted online retailers? When you see a game that is retail priced at $40 being sold at $22, can you interpret what that probably means? This means a retailer who is ordering "Just in time", who isn't holding any inventory, and who has no real overhead to speak of. But in reality, in most cases, the internet online store simply represents a price reduction for the consumer, but still using the exact same channels. Why do you think it works any differently?
That said, I do know that there are online retailers that work differently. There are some that do things like import games in from Europe, and bear those expenses, and then try to resell to consumers, but you must see how expensive that model is.
In reality, the current three tier system only matters if you'd like to continue to see new games coming to this market. That system depends on two things - support from current gamers, and introduction of new gamers. The first - support from gamers, depends on our supporting the chain in whatever way we can. The second could be handled if we, as a hobby, make new gamers on our own.
My sense is - if the FLGS continues to fail, due to lack of local support, the entire structure is going to have a very hard time surviving.
I'm not the only person thinking this - which is why price supports have been put in place. While the price supports might be a mistake, right now the people implementing those supports are doing so not out of greed (you have to know that for the most part, there really isn't any profit margin to speak of in board games, right?) but out of a sense that this is the only way to protect their market, and our hobby.
Quote: It used to be that the only way to get things into the hands of consumers was to sell in retail stores, and the only way to get things to retailers (at least ones not local to you) was to use distributers.
To be honest, that's still the way it works. How many board games have you seen advertised on TV? I know that some are, and it's a big surprise when it happens. Do you have any other idea about how consumers, who are already negative about games anyway, are going to find games? I sure don't, and I think about this problem as part of my full time job.
I can tell you - very confidently - that for the most part, most hobby games in this country are being sold through this three tier system. If it collapses due to heavy discounting, what future do you see for this hobby?
And as an aside, really, the only very profitable side of this hobby was CCG's - and at this point, big box retailers have pretty much taken over and dominated that market. How many game stores do you think want to sell and a support a CCG that is being sold much cheaper at the big box mass market discounter? How many big box stores run regular game events in their stores? The answer? Probably none. Retail stores are still making money selling CCGs, but that's more because of the installed fan base of fellow players to play with and a vigorous schedule of events.
Really, as gamers, what do we want? I don't know about you, but I'd like to have cool games to play, gamers to play it with, and having a cool place to hang out and play those games would be super nice. Isn't that what we really want?
Quote: Now if it was the distributers that were responsible for the price-fixing, well that would be a terrible thing.
The distribution channel would have literally no way to do this. They could choose to only sell to B&M stores, but at the end of the day, they buy games from publishers, and the publishers in general set the retail price.
Quote: But the price-fixing we're seeing helps us get more and better games.
In theory, that is true, according to our current model. More gamers mean more games being published means more designers making cool games for us to play.
Quote: And although I like Boulder, and have supported them for years, this tremendous whining about price-fixing is not only ridiculous, but Jim should be ashamed. Talk about biting the hands that feed you. Unless he's going to go out and start designing games to sell in his own store, he should shut the hell up.
More than likely, most retailers understand the long term consequences of getting into publishing or designing - and since they understand this, even if they did have a game they wanted to publish, they'd probably find a publishing company do do it for them. (I know of several exceptions, where a retailer also became a designer and publisher, but they are relatively rare).
I'd be very interested in hearing any other ideas about how the model might work...
Russell
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Russell Grieshop
United States
Tampa
Florida
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Here's my entirely personal opinion about what FRED in particular is doing. I know some of the guys doing this, and I think they have our best interests at heart. FRED has saved some games from disappearing completely, and they have also brought some pretty good games to market. They are working to build a good relationship with retailers, because they recognize the value that the retailers bring to our hobby, and to the entire industry. FRED knows what's hurting the industry the most right now, and they are taking steps that in their best judgment, is most likely to help the industry and our hobby survive.
Are these the right decisions? I honestly don't have any idea.
Nobody needs to buy products from a company they don't like. I encourage anybody who dislikes a company's practices to stop giving them money. But I'd also encourage people to ask why that company has adopted the policies that some find offensive. If the policies are being implemented out of some less noble motivation, like greed, that's probably not acceptable. If however the policies are being implemented in hopes of putting a finger in the dike, and having a chance of saving the hobby and the industry, that might be acceptable.
Personally, I'm hoping for more cool games being published, and seeing more and more new gamers join our hobby. I want to support the entities that actually help make that happen.
Russell
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Chaddyboy
United States
Olathe
Kansas
Bloooooop.
Bluuuuuurp.
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Where have you been the last year!?!
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Russell Grieshop
United States
Tampa
Florida
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chaddyboy_2000 wrote: Where have you been the last year!?!
Lurking... why?
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Scott Everts
United States
Foothill Ranch
California
MITCHELL!!!
Push the button, Frank!
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I can see both sides of this argument. But from a personal view, I buy more games because of the discount. My gaming group tends to do large online orders every few months and we all buy far more games now then we did say 5 years ago. And that's because of the large online discount. So are we helping or hurting the hobby? The publisher still gets the same profit they got before but now they are at least making more money from our group since we buy more.
I've noticed we've tended to shy away from price fixed games unless they were something really special. Just becuase there are so many game choices now why buy a game at full price when you can use that money to buy more other games.
As for Fred, I don't own any of there games currently since they haven't released anything I'm willing to pay that much for. That could change in the future if they release something I really want. I don't boycott them but I don't generally think of them first when making my buying decisions.
So maybe for new gamers price fixing works but certainly for long time gamers it probably hurts. And I have seen several local game stores bit the dust over the last few years. Those that survive seem to either also sell comics or heavily stock light family games. I think the time of the "gamer" game stores is at a close. The internet is going to probably be where most gamers get their stuff but is this any different from other hobbies? I remember 20 years ago you used to see model train stores and now I can't even remember the last time I've seen one. I assume that hobby has gone completely online. We could see the same thing where you get Monopoly at your local toy store and all the heavier games online only.
EDIT- One other comment. Maybe the game companies are supporting the wrong thing. We have a local gaming group (Orange County Board Gamers) that meets once a month and also has several other smaller meets throughout the month. What game companies need to do is support gaming groups and local gaming cons. We also have cons in LA 3 times a year. Maybe they are backing the wrong horse.
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Chaddyboy
United States
Olathe
Kansas
Bloooooop.
Bluuuuuurp.
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Werebear wrote: chaddyboy_2000 wrote: Where have you been the last year!?! \ Lurking... why?
Sorry for the confusion, not you! I was asking the OP... these pricing practices have been around for quite a while already.
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Quote: If you have another model besides the FLGS to create new gamers, I'm sure the entire industry would love to hear it.
I'm no industry expert, but hasn't the internet (and BGG in particular) been vital in introducing or re-introducing potential gamers to the hobby? I know the resources here are far more useful to me and the people I game with than any salesman at a FLGS.
In an environment in which there are several excellent games available for around $30, asking me to spend $60 for an equally excellent game is a tough sell. Especially when the extra $30 is essentially subsidizing facilities that I don't use.
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Martin Wallace
United Kingdom
Manchester
Unspecified
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I would like to make it absolutely clear that Warfrog does not have a policy of fixing prices. In that sense the Boulder page is inaccurate. The design of Brass was licensed to FRED, who are acting in the role of a producer as well as distributor. Warfrog does not have any say over the policy of the production company. I have asked Boulder to amend the page accordingly.
Martin Wallace
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Dirk Gently
United States
Norman
Oklahoma
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Werebear wrote: We want new gamers. The way to get new gamers is through supporting the FLGS. Those game stores don't buy direct from the publisher, because they'd need to buy in larger quantities. Hence the creation of the distribution channel. Distributors buy in large quantities from publishers, and sell in small quantities to retailers. Most distributors sell in small quantities to both FLGS and online retailers. Do you really think that any but the largest online retailers actually have stock on hand? Where do you think they get their product?
If you have another model besides the FLGS to create new gamers, I'm sure the entire industry would love to hear it. With every FLGS that closes (and the numbers are alarming), the hobby creeps that much closer to it becoming much harder for gamers like us to get the games we want.
I've found that FLGS is only a minor way to create new gamers. The best way to create new gamers is for current gamers to expand the hobby by introducing family and friends and people from work, church, school, and their neighborhood to games. Then direct them to FLGS and online vendors for their first purchases. I've lost count of the number of people I've converted through this method. A FLGS may survive simply by catering to their core group of gamers, but it takes word of mouth to make new gamers, and that comes from the old gamers. Not old as in age, old as in, they've been playing games for a while. You get the idea.
Price fixing, IMHO, turns away new gamers because people that are used to Monopoly or Taboo costing, at most, $25 per copy, aren't going to jump in when confronted with price floors of $50 or higher. If new gamers are the key to the industry, then publishers, distributors, adn manufacturers should be trying their best to volunteer to teach games at their local church, school, rec center, etc. and get the word out. Instituting price floors will not bring new gamers into the fold, and therefore not help out the industry.
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Dirk Gently
United States
Norman
Oklahoma
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Frog1 wrote: I would like to make it absolutely clear that Warfrog does not have a policy of fixing prices. In that sense the Boulder page is inaccurate. The design of Brass was licensed to FRED, who are acting in the role of a producer as well as distributor. Warfrog does not have any say over the policy of the production company. I have asked Boulder to amend the page accordingly.
Martin Wallace
Holy crap! I never expected Mr. Wallace to actually see this and respond. Uh, uh, thanks for posting, and I really enjoyed Brass and Tinners' Trail. I'll probably end up buying them from a european retailer and pay the extra shipping. It will just take me longer to save up for it.
Just a little star struck right now. 
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Dirk Gently
United States
Norman
Oklahoma
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chaddyboy_2000 wrote: Werebear wrote: chaddyboy_2000 wrote: Where have you been the last year!?! \ Lurking... why? Sorry for the confusion, not you! I was asking the OP... these pricing practices have been around for quite a while already.
Well, I know that MSRP's have always been around, but the right for a publisher or distributor to mandate prices was only made legal in 2007. I guess the games that I've bought in the last 18 months have all come from companies that don't mandate price floors, and I've gotten discounted prices through online vendors. This is the first game, in print, where I've not seen it cheaper online than in my FLGS.
BTW, I hope you're having a good winter in Lawrence. I haven't been there since I graduated in 99. Moved south that summer.
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Hey Nonny Mouse
United States
Longmont
Colorado
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jwilhm wrote: Price fixing, IMHO, turns away new gamers because people that are used to Monopoly or Taboo costing, at most, $25 per copy, aren't going to jump in when confronted with price floors of $50 or higher. If new gamers are the key to the industry, then publishers, distributors, adn manufacturers should be trying their best to volunteer to teach games at their local church, school, rec center, etc. and get the word out. Instituting price floors will not bring new gamers into the fold, and therefore not help out the industry.
You are free to think that, and price games you publish accordingly. Other publishers are free to make their own assessments of how vital FLGS's are to the hobby, and price their publications accordingly.
If the group that supports FLGS's does better, then they will get more money, and be able to publish more games. If the group that relies on online and volunteer word of mouth does better, then they will get more money, and be able to publish more games.
I don't really see the problem here.
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Michael Webb
The People's Republic of Ann Arbor
Michigan
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Sprydle wrote: Unfortunately Brass isn't available directly from Martin Wallace,
Well, it is, but just at specified times and places (i.e.: Essen). My copy of Brass was purchased at Essen for 59 Euro, so forgive me for not pitying people who have to pay the same in American dollars
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Christopher Dearlove
United Kingdom
Chelmsford
Essex
SoRCon 5 2-4 Feb 2012 http://www.sorcon.co.uk
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CortexBomb wrote: Sprydle wrote: Unfortunately Brass isn't available directly from Martin Wallace, Well, it is
Was, I think. I'm reasonably sure that Brass (1st edition) sold out from Warfrog even before Essen 2008.
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Curt Hnatiuk
United States
St. Louis
Missouri
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Now, you didn't mention where you played Brass for the first time, but for the sake of argument, let's imagine that you played it for the first time at you local game store.
You loved the game so much, that you wanted to buy it yourself, and immediately went online to find the best deal.
Let's take a journey back in time, shall we. There was a time, 4 - 5 years ago that there used to be Camera stores everywhere. These camera stores employed people to assist its patrons. Life was good.
Then a trend started. People would visit their camera store, and get the help of the employees to find the best camera for them. Then the potential customer would leave, and go online, purchasing the camera there, as they new it was good. This trend continued, and now stores dedicated to cameras are almost wiped out. If you want a camera, now one of the only places left are larger stores like Best Buy where the employees seem to be less specialized, and the only help they offer is that you need more megapixels.
Let's revisit the tale at the beginning. A person uses the resourses of their local game store, and then give the business to online retailers.
It is actions like this that are causing more harm to our hobby than FRED setting price floors for its products.
As well, you keep saying, that if every distributer sets these price floors then we are all doomed. One small publisher does not run the industry. They don't have the ability to change it all.
Applying the Slippery Slope argument that one publisher making one change will mean an end to our hobby is very far fetched.
If the game is good, buy the game.
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Christopher Dearlove
United Kingdom
Chelmsford
Essex
SoRCon 5 2-4 Feb 2012 http://www.sorcon.co.uk
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crambaza wrote: Now, you didn't mention where you played Brass for the first time, but for the sake of argument, let's imagine that you played it for the first time at you local game store.
That's where North America tends to differ from the UK. I've been in various FLGSs in Canada and the US, and while they haven't all had game playing space, I think almost all that weren't in malls have had. But in the UK, while I have been in games shops with playing space, not many, and right now I can't think of one that has that I've been in for quite a while. (Games Workshop shops haven't counted as games shops for many years.)
Of course you can apply the same logic to "picked the owner's brain for half an hour" as well as to "played the game". However these days I tend not to do that, as I usually have a better idea than the owner about what I want.
(I have been in more than one FLGS in both North America and the UK, scouring the shelves trying to find something I actually wanted as I really wanted to buy something in there. I've both succeeded and failed at that as while I might stretch a point, of course I won't buy anything I don't want or already have.)
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Richard Would
United Kingdom
Gosport
Hampshire
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Although all of the shops in the UK do not have games played in them, all the ones I can think of have an active involvement in their local club, and many also put on demonstration games at trade shows. Without their involvement it would be even more of a minority than it sadly is over here.
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William (Andy) Anderson
United States
Las Vegas
Nevada
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A good friend recieved a copy in a trade. We have enjoyed it and I would own my own copy by now if the price was right. After looking at what was in the box I figure the top price should be about $45.00 US. When I can get if for that price I'll buy a copy. Until then I ask my friend to bring over his copy.
I appreciate FRED bring back some out of print games like Money but then choked when I noticed that they wanted $22.00 for a deck of cards, some rules and a small box. No discounting allowed. Count me out.
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Jason Gische
United States
San Carlos
California
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crambaza wrote: Now, you didn't mention where you played Brass for the first time, but for the sake of argument, let's imagine that you played it for the first time at you local game store.
You loved the game so much, that you wanted to buy it yourself, and immediately went online to find the best deal.
I assume this does happen a good bit, so I'm not going to argue the point.
However, I believe I've only played a game in a game store one time. It just doesn't happen.
The number of times I have walked into a game shop and found an employee more knowledgeable about the games being sold than I am is zero. Frequenting this site gives me access to far more information than they seem to have.
Given those two factors, plus the fact that I buy what the average person would think is an insane number of games, I see absolutely no reason for me to patronize a physical game store. The ability to physically hold a sealed box does not come close to justifying the extra money they charge.
I fully understand that they have more expenses. I get that they have to charge more to stay in business. It's just not my responsibility to help them when they are not providing me any service beyond what I can get online.
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Dennis L Mann
United States
Austin
Texas
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I am just wondering, regarding price fixing, if those complaining have:
1) Bought any Apple product
2) Bought an XBox 360
3) Bought a Playstation 3
4) Bought electricity
5) Bought Cable TV service
Well, because if you have, most of these products are price inflexible.
One of the reasons why the game companies "Price Fix" is to protect downstream retailers, namely, in the case of games, your Friendly Local Game Store. Yes, those small guys down the street in your town who barely make any cash. Yes, those guys who host local tournaments and gaming nights.
On top of that, maintaining sufficient margins by "Price Fixing" allows the game producer to invest in building other games.
If companies lose pricing power, it may ultimately mean that they (a) have to cut quality; (b) cut R&D; (c) Go out of business. I am interested in having more games and more quality games in the system, not less.
And regarding Boulder, of course he complains, because fixed price means he can't compete on his major advantage--price.
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