Jeremiah Lee
United States
Ypsilanti
Michigan
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My Sad Conclusion : Dune No More
Short summary for those that want it that way:
We played Dune, it took a long time, and it wasn't very thrilling. The game seemed to move along slowly, and we found ourselves just waiting for the first mistake of an alliance to leave a chance to win open. We won't be playing Dune again.
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I always try to get a group of people together on my birthday to play games, and this year, spurred by my recent attempts to get a full game of Dune played, I was hopeful. We could start by 9pm, and play until the game was done, and since everyone had played a half-game before, we all knew the rules. We had at least four hours (9pm-1am), and I figured that would be enough.
Turns out no one ever arrives when you expect, and some people don't show up. So at about 9:40ish, we had five ready to play. We left out the Guild.
I drew the Atreides, and the guy that was Atreides last time was Harkonnen (and I was Harkonnen last time). This was my first time playing Atreides, and I was looking forward to having the knowledge advantage.
The game started with much more fighting for spice than I'd previously seen, which was nice, however it all was showing up around the Great Flat, and the Fremen were willing to put a good number of their reserves out in the fight, so they quickly became quite wealthy (which is typically hard for the Fremen to do). With their ease of mobility, and now spice enough to buy cards, they were a serious force.
My attempts at getting spice wasn't going well, and as such I didn't feel as if I had the power to grab another city. We were in a five player game, and it turned out that each of us had dominance in one of the cities for most of the game.
We moved on like this for a while, mainly just trying to collect spice, and no one pushing towards getting another city, until the first nexus.
People were pretty quiet during the nexus. There turned out to be an alliance between the Atreides and Harkonnen, and in response to that a three-faction alliance with BG/Emp/Fre. We were playing with the optional rule that a 2-alliance needs 4 cities to win, and a 3-alliance needs 5. Atr/Har controlled Arakeen and Carthag, with the two southernmost cities having only 3 or 4 units protecting them for the other alliance.
If we would have had access to spice quicker, the game could have (I believe) finished a turn or two after the nexus. We were starved for spice though, as the storm took out some, and the worm had already eaten what had recently come up. We knew we had some time before the Emp/Fre forces could be revived from the tanks, so we could play for spice for a while before going for the win.
It was, however, starting to get late. It was 1am, and everyone's energy was lagging.
At 2am, with very little change to the board, we decided that this would be our last turn. The Atr/Hark alliance needed one more city, and we had a chance at two (one was 2 Atr vs. 7 Emp, so not much chance there, and the other was a 7 Hark vs. 10 Fre).
The battle vs the Emp went poorly, getting my leader killed.
The battle vs the Fre went better, especially when the Hark used a Karama card to exchange hands with the Fremen. Chani was the Fremen leader, and that was a Harkonnen traitor, so we took the city.
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Conclusion:
We won't be playing Dune again, and I'm really sad about that because I had such high expectations for the game. I do believe that I'll give it a try online (via the forums at Starbase Jeff, but the fun vs. time invested for a face to face game just doesn't add up for me.
The board seemed pretty static, and (not unlike some un-fun abstracts) there seemed to be a wait-for-the-other-guy-to-make-a-mistake attitude about the game. Perhaps that's due to who I was playing with, and not the game's setup. However, these are the people that I'd be playing with in future games, so even if it's the people, it isn't to be fixed.
The game takes so long. So, stinking long. And yes, it -could- finish in an hour, if someone makes a big enough mistake, but sheesh, we should be able to finish in four hours, right? Were it not for our decision to make this the last turn, it could easily have gone on for another hour or more.
I'm not scared of long games. I play Diplomacy, face to face and via email. Face to face these games take 6-10 hours, and I -love- every moment. However, there has been so much downtime in our games in between player turns that the BG kept falling asleep.. Seriously, even if someone is tired, a fun game keeps people awake. She was falling asleep at 11pm...no one would be falling asleep in Diplomacy.
So, it's unfortunate, but I think I'm done with Dune.
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1/2/2010 Update:
I was pretty sure there was more to the game, something I was missing. A game doesn't get that many followers without having something more going for it than what I saw, so I pressed on. I played the game at StarbaseJeff.com, I played the game at a gaming convention, and I learned how it plays. And now I'm eight plays in, and I love it. It's
my second favorite game, and since it plays much quicker than my favorite game (Diplomacy), I'm sure I'll get more plays of it in.
This game is worth figuring out, and certainly it does take some figuring out. It's not readily apparent what you should do with each faction. Take your time learning, play with people that know the game, and read some of the strategy documents posted here on the geek.
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Ken
United States
The People's Republic of Portland
Oregon
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Re: My Sad Conclusion : Dune No More
Maybe we've just been lucky - but the longest game we've ever played was about three hours. And every game has gone to completion and been a blast.
Next time you come to Portland...
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Steve
United Kingdom
Milford Haven
Pembrokeshire
Rai # 5 by Valiant Comics
Jim Shooter is a comics legend!
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Re: My Sad Conclusion : Dune No More
Jeremiah_Lee wrote:
Re: My Sad Conclusion : Dune No More
...My Sad Conclusion : Dune No More...
...We won't be playing Dune again....
...We won't be playing Dune again...
So, it's unfortunate, but I think I'm done with Dune.
So, are you going to be playing Dune again or not? 
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Jeremiah Lee
United States
Ypsilanti
Michigan
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Re: My Sad Conclusion : Dune No More
streaky2007 wrote: So, are you going to be playing Dune again or not? 
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♫ Eric Herman ♫
United States
West Richland
Washington
I like elephants. I like how they swing through trees.
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Re: My Sad Conclusion : Dune No More
Dune is a game I've always wanted to try at some point... It seems like these kind of AT style games that are long and fairly complex (not counting ASL type wargames) can either seem to end up being big wastes of time or the best - game - EVAR - depending on the group you play it with and the time when you play it. But that reminds me that I always liked to see certain bands live more than others, like Neil Young and the Grateful Dead, because it was always unique every show... They might very well suck horribly some nights, but when they've got the mojo going, it's really something special.
Hopefully my experience goes better than yours, Jeremiah, whenever that is.
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Drake Coker
United States
San Diego
California
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Re: My Sad Conclusion : Dune No More
Quote: no one would be falling asleep in Diplomacy
Falling asleep in Diplomacy usually leads to a much leaner board position
I'm sorry to hear about your experience with Dune. I've always wanted to try the game, it has a reasonably good reputation and it's such a great subject matter!
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Re: My Sad Conclusion : Dune No More
Don't hestitate to try the game again with a different group if you get the chance.
The victory conditions always suffered from "too" syndrome. 3 strongholds for an alliance is too easy. 4 strongholds is too hard. So Dune falls between "too" stools. One possible comprimise that I've not seen suggested before (so I don't know how well it would work) is use the 3 stronghold criteria as the number needed for an alliance victory, but an alliance has to do it, say, 3 times before it actually wins.
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Richard Vickery
Australia
Tempe (Sydney)
NSW
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Re: My Sad Conclusion : Dune No More
Glenn is right. The fix we use (and suggested by the rules) is to count the shield wall as a victory point site when playing with 5 or 6. That way it is 4 of 6 which is more easily possible but still requires skill and planning.
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Klaude Thomas
United Kingdom
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Re: My Sad Conclusion : Dune No More
Don't play Alliance rules or Bribery. Otherwise use all the advanced and optional rules except for Longer Game. Never use Spice Harvest or Duel. In 5-player I favour leaving out BG over Guild.
I have played over a hundred games of Dune, and while some of them have gone to four hours I've never had one run longer. Most likely your group were not clear on how to win. That is the most common hindrance I see for new players.
Put simply, the way to win Dune is to capture two sietches--it doesn't matter which--and then wait for the storm to go past your spot and strike for a third with you moving last or next to last. By choosing that timing you minimise other player's chances to react.
Could that have been the issue for your group?
-vk
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Scott Ferrier
United States
Salem
Massachusetts
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Re: My Sad Conclusion : Dune No More
vonklaude wrote: Don't play Alliance rules or Bribery. Otherwise use all the advanced and optional rules except for Longer Game. Never use Spice Harvest or Duel. In 5-player I favour leaving out BG over Guild.
I have to agree with don't play with the Alliance rules, it speeds up play. And all the expansions for this game added time and where not very good and kind of detracted from how good the core game is.
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Tom Pender
United States
Kittanning
Pennsylvania
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Re: My Sad Conclusion : Dune No More
I think you just hit an unlucky patch. In my experience, Dune is unpredictable when it comes to length of play. Some games take an hour, some four+. However, I'd say MAYBE only one in ten cross the two-hour threshold. (We generally play with alliances and with options, though not advanced, rules.) We've found alliances speed up play, but maybe that's just our playing style.
Dune needs cleaned up a bit, but it is by far one of the best games I've ever played. I would suggest trying it again now that the players have a little bit of experience.
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Patrick S.
United States
Santa Barbara
California
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Re: My Sad Conclusion : Dune No More
I think it was a bad choice to leave out the Guild. By keeping them in the game, it keeps a huge amount of spice in as well. With 5 I'd recommend taking out the Bene Gesserit.
We play with all the optional rules, but not the advanced and no expansions. Our games come in around 3-4 hours. (This weekend was 3h15m for 13 turns)
I find that it's really easy for people to lose focus, which is our biggest time suck. It helps to have someone directing the flow of the game. I've printed out rule cheat sheets which online the turn structure. I usually announce the phase and direct people to action if I think they aren't pay attention.
Also the game speeds up tremendously with the alliances once people have a couple games under their belts. There isn't need for prolonged discussions and everyone knows what the cards do.
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Re: My Sad Conclusion : Dune No More
We maybe had now 50+ games and have realized, that playing with 3player-alliances slows the game down dramatically!! That's why we simply forbid them. Of course the "neutral" fifth player can try to play for the weaker alliance, but he normally doesn't share all his knowledge and doesn't give hints in battles. Especially preparing the battle wheels in 3player alliances is boooooring! That's why we also have a house rule, that says, if possible, battles must always be fought simultaniously. That leads to more risky situations and sometimes "surprising" victories.
Give it another try... we mostly play five-players, it's imo the best setting: "fast" but still interesting. We need between 1 and 3,5 hours... rarely longer...
Greetz, HivedOne!
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Re: My Sad Conclusion : Dune No More
Jeremiah_Lee wrote: My Sad Conclusion : Dune No More
This is sad indeed, Jeremiah. We just concluded our inaugural game of Dune, with a fill complement of six, and it was...spectacular. Yes, first game started off sort of wobbly. But once we had turn order down and a worm showed up and alliances kicked in, the fun skyrocketed. A thoroughly joyful gaming experience of the rarest kind.
Dune is as good as they say.
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Morgan Dontanville
United States
Brooklyn
New York
Plate of Shrimp.
Here we are folks, the dream we all dream of.
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Re: My Sad Conclusion : Dune No More
On the bright side, this will be a very easy game to trade or sell. I'm sure that someone will be happy to take your copy off of you.
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Morgan Dontanville
United States
Brooklyn
New York
Plate of Shrimp.
Here we are folks, the dream we all dream of.
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Re: My Sad Conclusion : Dune No More
FYI, I'd totally be asleep playing Diplomacy. Different strokes...
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Jeremiah Lee
United States
Ypsilanti
Michigan
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Re: My Sad Conclusion : Dune No More
So. Um. I'm now 8 games into Dune.
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..
...
....
I love it. It's one of my favorites. I just played it tonight, in fact, and won with a BG prediction. It was awesome.
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Ken
United States
The People's Republic of Portland
Oregon
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Re: My Sad Conclusion : Dune No More
Jeremiah_Lee wrote: So. Um. I'm now 8 games into Dune.
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..
...
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I love it. It's one of my favorites. I just played it tonight, in fact, and won with a BG prediction. It was awesome.
I've always wanted to win with the BG. Always so close...
I knew you'd come around.
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Jeremiah Lee
United States
Ypsilanti
Michigan
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Re: My Sad Conclusion : Dune No More
artfuldodge2 wrote: I've always wanted to win with the BG. Always so close...
I knew you'd come around. And this game was about an hour, after teaching the rules. This is after my three hour (unfinished) game that I wrote about in this session report. Wow. I wonder what we were doing so wrong?
Thanks for having faith in me.
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Phil Sauer
United States
Willow Street
Pennsylvania
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Re: My Sad Conclusion : Dune No More
Glad to hear of your conversion... and we didn't even need to send over any Fedaykin! 
Perhaps the title of this thread needs an edit, no?
Thanks for the update, incidentally... I actually saw your original post when you created it and it certainly seemed pretty much that you might have given up on it. Providing the update reinforces my desire to give games I don't quite grok a few chances -- perhaps more -- before writing them off completely. Nicely done, Jeremiah.
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Dale Franklin
New Zealand
Timaru
South Canterbury
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Jeremiah_Lee wrote: So. Um. I'm now 8 games into Dune.
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I love it. It's one of my favorites. I just played it tonight, in fact, and won with a BG prediction. It was awesome.
Oh oh, another Session you could post here online, pretty please!
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Dale Franklin
New Zealand
Timaru
South Canterbury
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Jeremiah_Lee wrote: artfuldodge2 wrote: I've always wanted to win with the BG. Always so close...
I knew you'd come around. And this game was about an hour, after teaching the rules. This is after my three hour (unfinished) game that I wrote about in this session report. Wow. I wonder what we were doing so wrong? Thanks for having faith in me.
Awe, you already have ...;-)
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Posted Sat Jan 31, 2009 2:19 pm
