Recommend
33 
 Thumb up
 Hide
77 Posts
1 , 2 , 3 , 4  Next »   | 

BoardGameGeek» Forums » Gaming Related » General Gaming

Subject: Acceptable/unacceptable behavior - requesting a rewind in a game rss

Your Tags: Add tags
Popular Tags: [View All]
Seth Jaffee
United States
Tucson
Arizona
flag msg tools
designer
mbmbmbmbmb
The other day I had an ethical dilemma in a game. I'm curious what other gamers think is acceptable or unacceptable in this and similar situations. Here's what happened:

I was playing Hamburgum at a game day. One of the rules of Hamburgum is that resources are open information - you're supposed to display your resources so everyone can see what you have. One turn I landed on Trade, planning on selling my goods for money in order to bu a lot of resources on the following turn. However I surveyed my opponents' play areas and found no resources to be had. There was 1 desirable building left, so instead of selling my goods for money, I made the tactical decision to buy a brick and a timber in order to get the last good building.

The next player then landed on Guild Hall and bought the desirable building with some resources that he had in his hand. This seriously set me back - 4 or 5 turns in fact - and of course I wouldn't have done it if I had seen resources in my opponent's stock when I looked.

So the question is, would it have been acceptable to ask for a rewind at that point - for me to have sold my goods as planned instead of buying 2 resources. If I had simply made a mistake I would say it's not acceptable, but considering that I looked and did not see any resources because my opponent had them in his hand makes me think it would have been OK to go back on that particular play.

How much would have to happen before a re-do would be considered unacceptable, or in what situation would it be acceptable to request to change my play? Any thoughts?
18 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Drew Spencer
United States
Tucson
Arizona
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
I'd have to say that unless everyone agreed to store their goods in a particular place, then you should have made sure no one had any (by asking, for example) before making that decision. Granted, I probably would have allowed a rewind, but I don't think I would ask for one in your place, though I would be pretty annoyed.
24 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Seth Jaffee
United States
Tucson
Arizona
flag msg tools
designer
mbmbmbmbmb
In fact, I did not ask to go back, but I felt like I should have, and felt I would have been justified in doing so. It was highly annoying and frustrating but ultimately was just a misunderstanding.
4 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Isaac Citrom
Canada
Montreal
Quebec
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb

I have this problem with my boys. They execute a turn and then when they realize that their strategy was faulty, they want a rewind. Well, that's the point of trying to plan ahead. It doesn't always work out like you think. Imagine if a general could take do-overs when he sees the battle is not going his way. So, no rewinds in that case.

In your case, you might have a legitimate case in that the resources in question should have been exposed but weren't. Outside the scope of the game itself is the dynamic of the social gathering. Rewinds just slowe everything down and give justification for future re-analyses--rules lawyering. My policy is to just take the hit and chalk it up to bad luck. It would be used as a lesson to inform players to keep all resources in the open in the future. I really dislike it when players are poor sports when turns don't execute 100% as they intended. It leaves a bad taste into everone's mouth. It is antithetical to the fun.

I do do rewinds when there is an error made in playing the game and it's nobody's fault except perhaps the umpire's. But, even then only if the rewind is straightforward. If we have to screw up the gameboard and get into a mess, then again, the player takes the hit. It's an act of God and he'll survive.

The point is not to screw up the game because someone's move turned out to be less than optimal. I so hate playing with players that take the game so seriously that even potentially losing has their ire spill over into real life.
.
30 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Jeff Wood
United States
Davis
California
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
Less optimal answer but perhaps good with some groups: you could have informed your opponent that he couldn't buy the building with resources that were off the playmat/hidden.

Yeah, type-A-ness, but valid, maybe. sauron
5 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Andrew H
Australia
Brisbane
Queensland
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
I would have assumed that as soon as he opened his hand to show the resources he had been hiding, that you would have called him a low down, skum sucking, yella, cheatin dawg, as you pushed the table back into him to stand, draw and fill the punk full o lead.

That's what I would have done anyway....if I was your avatar.
48 
 Thumb up
0.10
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Seth Owen
United States
Norwich
Connecticut
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
It's not uncommon in wargame play to allow rewinds to a limited degree (outside of competitive play in tournaments or the like, of course) due to rules errors or obvious misplays like forgetting to enter a reinforcement or something like that.

Generally I think it's OK if the game hasn't advanced so far beyond the point in question that you can't recreate things. This will depend on the game and you also have to consider how fair it may be to the other side. For example, if the the other side has already revealed some hidden information (for example shown a block's strength in Hammer of the Scots) it may not be equitable to go back before that point.

The key is good sportsmanship and players should avoid asking their opponent for a rewind if it materially hurts their position. It's most justified when you're playing for the "history" of the battle/campaign/war and least justified when playing for bragging rights.
7 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Alvin C
Canada
Calgary
Alberta
flag msg tools
mbmbmb
In your case, I would have complained to the 'hider' and would have considered asking to take my move back (since it was just the next player). If I were another player at the table, I probably would have offered to let you take your move back. I wouldn't expect you to have to ask if people had resources.

I tend to be pretty flexible with rewinds. Reasons I give rewinds:-
1) I prefer that people play at a reasonable pace, and if people feel like their choices are set in stone when they take them, they would probably spend a lot of time making sure their move is correct.
2) I let people have rewinds because I know how annoying it is when people don't let you take them, particularly when no one else has taken a turn.

Reasons why I might not give a rewind:-
1) Too much backtracking, relative to the effect of the choice.
2) Hidden information was revealed that is not easily 'reshuffled' (e.g. somebody's hidden role was revealed, epidemic cards in pandemic)
3) It's your own damn fault for forgetting the rule I explained to you 3 times already.
4) No, you're not getting a FIFTH rewind this game!

I don't take many moves back myself unless it's new to me and I've misunderstood/forgotten a rule. I also might if someone else made the mistake. Usually, I slap my forehead and chalk it up to incompetence.
19 
 Thumb up
0.10
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Carl Anderson
United States
Brighton
Michigan
flag msg tools
mb
This happens on occasion in my group. One guy, we'll call him Fred, might make a bad play without realizing fully what he's done...until his turn is over. Another chap, call him Tim, will point this out and suggest that Fred take his turn back.

Do we mind? Absolutely not. The point is to have fun, and if Fred's errant play causes him to screw up so badly that he has no chance of winning, where's the fun in that?

Now, if Will immediately follows Fred, and Will takes his turn...well, then, Fred is stuck with what he's done. Simple as that.

Last I checked, the goal of playing a game is to have fun. I never really care if I win or lose--it's more important to have fun and spend time with friends. If they need a do-over before the next player goes? So be it!
15 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Glenn Ironhat
United States
Syracuse
Utah
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
If it happened to me, I am not sure what I would say. If it happened to another player and if I was running the game, I would announce the problem and rewind the turn back so that you could buy what you wanted.

I guess if it happened to me, I would say something like, "hey where did you get that stuff, resources are supposed to be open. I need to redo my turn."

Then see how the discussion goes. It also matters how long the game is and how far into it we are. If it is a long game, I am more likely to fix the problem, no matter what it takes, because someone should not be out of the game early on just because someone else broke a rule.

I like the idea of not allowing the resources to be used that turn IF fixing it another way is just too much trouble.
11 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Todd Redden
United States
Manchester
Connecticut
flag msg tools
Nut'n honey
badge
If you tell the truth, you don't have to remember anything - Mark Twain
mbmbmbmbmb
sedjtroll wrote:
The other day I had an ethical dilemma in a game. I'm curious what other gamers think is acceptable or unacceptable in this and similar situations. Here's what happened:

I was playing Hamburgum at a game day. One of the rules of Hamburgum is that resources are open information - you're supposed to display your resources so everyone can see what you have. One turn I landed on Trade, planning on selling my goods for money in order to bu a lot of resources on the following turn. However I surveyed my opponents' play areas and found no resources to be had. There was 1 desirable building left, so instead of selling my goods for money, I made the tactical decision to buy a brick and a timber in order to get the last good building.

The next player then landed on Guild Hall and bought the desirable building with some resources that he had in his hand. This seriously set me back - 4 or 5 turns in fact - and of course I wouldn't have done it if I had seen resources in my opponent's stock when I looked.

So the question is, would it have been acceptable to ask for a rewind at that point - for me to have sold my goods as planned instead of buying 2 resources. If I had simply made a mistake I would say it's not acceptable, but considering that I looked and did not see any resources because my opponent had them in his hand makes me think it would have been OK to go back on that particular play.

How much would have to happen before a re-do would be considered unacceptable, or in what situation would it be acceptable to request to change my play? Any thoughts?

Absolutely. Everybody is expected to play by the rules, and if money or goods (ie - stock certificates) are supposed to be open, then they must not be concealed, and that player should have gotten a stern talking to at the point his goods were revealed. How exactly the rewind should occur is another story, I think a take back to immediately before the misinformation caused a flaw in decision making should be perfectly acceptable in such a case.

2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
The Honorable Mayor McCheese
United States
Windermere
Florida
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
isaacc wrote:

I have this problem with my boys. They execute a turn and then when they realize that their strategy was faulty, they want a rewind. Well, that's the point of trying to plan ahead. It doesn't always work out like you think. Imagine if a general could take do-overs when he sees the battle is not going his way. So, no rewinds in that case.

In your case, you might have a legitimate case in that the resources in question should have been exposed but weren't. Outside the scope of the game itself is the dynamic of the social gathering. Rewinds just slowe everything down and give justification for future re-analyses--rules lawyering. My policy is to just take the hit and chalk it up to bad luck. It would be used as a lesson to inform players to keep all resources in the open in the future. I really dislike it when players are poor sports when turns don't execute 100% as they intended. It leaves a bad taste into everone's mouth. It is antithetical to the fun.

I do do rewinds when there is an error made in playing the game and it's nobody's fault except perhaps the umpire's. But, even then only if the rewind is straightforward. If we have to screw up the gameboard and get into a mess, then again, the player takes the hit. It's an act of God and he'll survive.

The point is not to screw up the game because someone's move turned out to be less than optimal. I so hate playing with players that take the game so seriously that even potentially losing has their ire spill over into real life.
.
You said do do.:D
5 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Chris Schenck
United States
Dayton
Ohio
flag msg tools
GO BUCKS!
badge
Stop touching me!
mbmbmbmbmb
sedjtroll wrote:
The next player then landed on Guild Hall and bought the desirable building with some resources that he had in his hand. This seriously set me back - 4 or 5 turns in fact - and of course I wouldn't have done it if I had seen resources in my opponent's stock when I looked.

I understand the dilemma, but do yourself a favor and always ask a player how many public-information pieces he has if it's critical to your decision. It avoids the whole situation. Also, as a matter of personal preference I never ask for a mulligan. I'd rather lose a game because of some oversight than win but be considered a whiney player. One win of one game is not worth gaining that reputation, even if you were in the right.
6 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
MSV Burns
United States
Olympia
Washington
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
Just curious...

Why did the other player have the resources hidden? Honest mistake? Fudging the rules? Getting ready for his own turn?
4 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Andrew H
Australia
Brisbane
Queensland
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
...habitual fiddler. Just can't keep his hands of his bits.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Rob Herman
United States
Cleveland
Ohio
flag msg tools
designer
mbmbmbmbmb
Critical Mass wrote:
...habitual fiddler. Just can't keep his hands of his bits.


...Oh my. wow

Seriously, I think you are completely reasonable in changing your move:

"Where did you get those resources from?"
"They were in my hand."
"Oh. In that case, do you mind if I do something different for my turn?"

Surely none can refuse.
18 
 Thumb up
0.10
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Russ Williams
Poland
Wrocław
Dolny Śląsk
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmb
Seems reasonable to me that you'd say something like "Hey, come on - resources are supposed to be clearly visible; I looked and saw no one had any, so I did action X. If you hadn't been hiding your resources, of course I'd have done action Y, not X."

To me, this is quite different from asking to take back a move that was just a strategic error on your part. Your situation is more like another player was (unintentionally) breaking the rules, and you suffered as a result instead of the rule-breaker.

In a sense it's as if you were buying stuff in a game and asked the banker "How much am I paying for all this?" and the banker told you "$18", so you paid $18, then noticed it should be $16 - I suppose most people would agree you could say "Hey, that only added up to $16 - give me $2 back".

But yeah, as others suggested, it's good to ask "No one is hiding resources, right?" before such decisions, especially if you know one of the players tends to hide their resources. Hopefully that will make the other player aware of his bad habit and get him to stop, rather than reinforcing the bad habit by making him think that people will always ask, so it's OK for him to hide his pieces...
5 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Alvin C
Canada
Calgary
Alberta
flag msg tools
mbmbmb
cbs42 wrote:
I understand the dilemma, but do yourself a favor and always ask a player how many public-information pieces he has if it's critical to your decision.


This is generally a good idea, but sometimes asking people what they have telegraphs your intentions, which could hurt you in the game. It wouldn't have in this case since Seth was planning to build before anyone else got the chance.

It would be best if people didn't inadvertantly hide their stuff. (I'm guilty sometimes, too)

Critical Mass wrote:
...habitual fiddler. Just can't keep his hands of his bits.


With fiddlers you can usually tell that they're holding something. I bet he had them in hand ready to chuck them in when he took his turn.
4 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Joel J
United States
Iowa City
IA
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
I'm such a proponent of game rewinding when someone has obviously missed some bit of information or has just plain forgotten to do something.

I don't play to win, I play for the fun of developing a strategy to win. If I or someone else is put out of the game because of an obvious mistake, then the strategy becomes pointless and suddenly all about who didn't make a complete blunder. That's not the kind of time I look forward to.

Time spent rewinding moves is minuscule compared to the AP time you'll save when people know they can make a gut call and the few times they miss something obvious, someone will point it out or we'll rewind it.

In your particular situation, if it had happened to me I wouldn't have requested a rewind, but I would have explained the situation and expected someone else to request it. If not, I'd just let it go. If it had happened to someone else, I would have insisted on a rewind unless someone really had an objection to it.
3 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Seth Jaffee
United States
Tucson
Arizona
flag msg tools
designer
mbmbmbmbmb
Marqos wrote:
Why did the other player have the resources hidden? Honest mistake? Fudging the rules? Getting ready for his own turn?

I'm pretty certain he was just getting ready to spend them on his turn.
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
THE JTSPECIAL-OID
Denmark
Aarhus
Unwashed and somewhat slightly dazed...
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
isaacc wrote:

I do do rewinds!


Sounds like a Micro badge waiting to happen...
7 
 Thumb up
0.10
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Brian Robson
Scotland
Edinburgh
Midlothian
flag msg tools
designer
Available from www.spielmaterial.de
badge
Got a light, mate?
mbmbmbmbmb
We're usually pretty flexible the first time we play a game (of a complexity similar to, or greater, than Hamburgum) if someone realises they have made a huge error. Second time around though, it's a different story ...
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Steve Rogers
United States
Fresno
California
flag msg tools
You and the Cap'n make it hap'n
mbmbmbmbmb
sedjtroll wrote:
How much would have to happen before a re-do would be considered unacceptable, or in what situation would it be acceptable to request to change my play? Any thoughts?


Our groups tends to play by the rule that a rewind is ok until another player has actually taken part of his turn, or if a rule is discovered to have been played incorrectly and it can be redone without too much trouble.

Personally, I would have thought you entitled to a rewind and would have supported your effort to get one, but wouldn't have expected the rest of the table to allow it if they were opposed.
3 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Fred Smilek
United States
Oregon
flag msg tools
I wouldnt have personally allowed a rewind either, But im sure i would have been able to predict what ended happening either
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Mike Sherwood
United States
Arundel
Maine
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
I've played in two kinds of groups:

1) No rewinds.

2) Rewinds, and more forgiveness -- In this group any rewind done before new information is revealed is generally accepted without question. In addition, for longer games any 'stupid' play made that results in ruining your position is often forgiven. In any case, it's important that no important hidden information was revealed. If it was, than no rewind is available. I'm not really describing it well, but we basically let people undo moves that would otherwise make them uncompetitive for the remainder of the game. It sucks to lose a 3 hour game due to one 'stupid' move.
6 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
1 , 2 , 3 , 4  Next »   | 
Front Page | Welcome | Contact | Privacy Policy | Terms of Service | Advertise | Support BGG | Feeds RSS
Geekdo, BoardGameGeek, the Geekdo logo, and the BoardGameGeek logo are trademarks of BoardGameGeek, LLC.