Andy Daglish
United Kingdom Cheadle Cheshire
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The game is another of that small band that are too short. In general there is not enough time to decline & choose new races in the style of Vinci. Doing so is best done on specific game turns, and one gets the impression that you are a bit like a Grand Prix manager deciding on one tyre change or two.
The various ranges in the game are greater than in Vinci. Some sides are far better or far worse than the others available, to the extent that paying 5VP to get the extremely good one requires little thought. This effect gets worse when extended to a declined/active race combo: some are so powerful they will determine the winner by turn 6. Having men on the ground is as critical as in Vinci, but keeping them there is harder. For this reason Merchant Wizards is unlikely ever to be chosen, and 1VP each time it is overlooked is not enough. Getting races with bonus VP is even more important than in Vinci, since the big successful races scoring 1VP per space seems unlikely to win. Admittedly one would hope these effects would cancel out, but they don't, and if they did it would probably favour an uninvolved player. Losing this game will often be determined by the races available on the one or two occasions you choose a new one.
The board position of races seemed less important than in Vinci. There are no adjacency rules, and in this context the defence strength of individual spaces is more important.
The die is a silly crapshoot that introduces a worse problem than the one it was intended to solve. The balance of VP it decides is enough to change VP order at game end. They didn't like this sort of thing in Streetcar. The intricacies of interlocking kingmaking moves at the end of a five-player Vinci often cannot be worked out -- the proof being the time spent on the problem by those who think they can -- and thus criticisms of it were never particularly valid. This led me into wondering if the designer understood the strengths of the original, because they are not all present in Small World.
Not wildly keen on the artwork. Light & shade make some spaces look like two. The Elf resembles an insect that has taken onboard a lot of chlorophyll.
Allegedly Small World is the better game for non-gamers playing two- or three-player, otherwise its no reason to sell your 2nd ed. Vinci.I wonder how YOO would have reacted to Vinci being published second, as a vaunted Small World upgrade?
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I think SW should be seen not so much as a successor to Vinci, but rather Vinci reimagined. So if there are aspects of Vinci missing from SW that make a Vinci veteran prefer the former, there's nothing that'll stop them from continuing to play Vinci.
So yes, maybe SW is a pop version of Vinci, but I'm sure that as much about SW as may not appeal to a Vinci veteran may on the other hand win over some of those who've so far skipped Vinci. The buzz surrounding the release clearly supports this. In this light, I don't think that anything is lost by SW having been published -- on the contrary. 
Personally, I find the graphical presentation very well-done and fitting in itself -- creating a humorous fantasy context for the underlying core mechanics it shares with Vinci. While Vinci never particularly appealed to because of its rather bland presentation, SW's presentation immediately intrigued me and still represents an important part of the gameplay experience.
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aforandy wrote: For this reason Merchant Wizards is unlikely ever to be chosen, and 1VP each time it is overlooked is not enough. Getting races with bonus VP is even more important than in Vinci, since the big successful races scoring 1VP per space seems unlikely to win.
I don't quite understand what you're saying here. Merchant Wizards is a race with bonus VP, as they can score up to 3VP per space. So they can be an interesting choice, even if they don't have much firepower. In fact, I believe Small World keeps the Vinci balance intact : should I get a powerful race or a weak race with bonus VP ? With all due respect, I suggest you play the game a little more. You'll find out choices are not that obvious to make.
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I think he means that the Merchant trait is no good, because the Merchant will be ganged up anytime he shows up (because he can't attack or defend just score points).
I do agree to some extent, that number of tokens is the highest commodity. Because the scoring traits/races have less tokens, they are a little bit weak compared to those Amazons and Tritons e.g.
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Darrell Hanning
United States Jacksonville Florida
Love women in action movies and shows. It all started with Diana Rigg, in the Avengers.
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I understand you had some things you wanted to get off your chest about Small World, Andy, and from the sound of things, you have some legitimate gripes that no doubt will be hashed out repeatedly over the next, few months.
But I don't think your entry is deserving of being called a "review". It is no more such a thing than the average, long-winded complaint found in many threads on BGG. Obviously, it got approved, and so the approval process is as much at fault, but I still think you should have put more effort (and perhaps even some objectivity) into this, before submitting it as a review.
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Anthony Simons
United Kingdom Royal Wootton Bassett Wiltshire
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I agree the review is a little short, but it's contributing a lot despite its word-count; if Andy added in an unnecessary rules overview it would be as long as any review that includes one.
I am almost totally convinced I am better off steering clear and sticking with Vinci; I don't like any of the apparent problems Andy has highlighted and the real killer for me is (if what Andy is saying is true) not enough game time to experience the game.
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Jennifer Schlickbernd
United States Pasadena California
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I've played it twice now, and in neither case did I feel that the game was over too soon. Since you can see when the game is going to end, you plan accordingly. Some players put races into decline every other turn so they played three different races. Perhaps Andy's concerns are based on wanting to hold on to races for longer than is feasible. You want to put strong races into decline so they can keep scoring for you and you can also still score for the race you have. This does mean a lot of churn though and some won't like that.
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Andy Daglish
United Kingdom Cheadle Cheshire
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DarrellKH wrote: But I don't think your entry is deserving of being called a "review". It is no more such a thing than the average, long-winded complaint found in many threads on BGG. Obviously, it got approved, and so the approval process is as much at fault, but I still think you should have put more effort (and perhaps even some objectivity) into this, before submitting it as a review.
No. It is a review of the crapness of SW, and as such it would have been more inappropriate to have put in in the General category or any other.
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Gustav Ã…kerfelt
Finland Turku
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I find it's a good thing that someone writes negative reviews as well. I'm not saying i agree with all of your assesments, and you do come off abit defensive, but the less-then-brilliant sides of any game should also be brought to light.
There is no such thing as a perfect game anyway, simply because people like prefer diffrent things in their games. If there are people who hate i game i really like, i for one want to know what they are thinking. Not that it needs to change my mind or anything, but the more diffrent points of view i can take in, the better i feel i know the subject. If there are common problems that many people complain about, maybe i need to check with my friends if we should make a house-rule to ammend it, or suchlike.
Anyway, i like SW, but i would not say anyone has to choose between ONLY playing Vinci or SW. Neighter would i imply one is absolutely better then the other, as then i would be arguing taste and personal preferance.
Short summery. SW should be able to withstand some critic, and people can play whatever games they like.
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Darrell Hanning
United States Jacksonville Florida
Love women in action movies and shows. It all started with Diana Rigg, in the Avengers.
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I'm aware that - in light of a lot of the recent submissions inexplicably approved - my own standards for a review seem increasingly out of tune for BGG, but they are standards for reviews of other products, too.
Taken seriously with a modicum of responsibility, the writing of a review should provide some type of overview of the product and its intent. This should - incredible as it may seem - be written in an objective manner, so as to show that the reviewer is giving the product a fair shake. The review can then - optionally but desirably - go into the personal, subjective impressions of the reviewer.
If you leave the former part out and only deliver the latter, you are not writing a review, you are simply flaming a product, and as a flame it shouldn't be taken seriously as a review, nor approved as one.
We can all probably flame about ten products an hour. They don't take a helluva lot of thought, nor sense of overview, nor composition, nor organization. In other words, they are lacking about 90% of what a review needs to have.
In short, just because the mods are sleeping at the wheel doesn't mean you should feel okay with calling a drive-by shooting a "review". To some extent, you are a victim of a failing process, I realize. But I don't think asking for the writer to shoulder a little responsibility is asking too much.
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Ryan Hanson
United States
Washington
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I'm with Darrell on this one.
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I had a little bit trouble to read the review I must admit. But I try to cover your most important statements:
Small World is too short
You may increase playing time and decrease tension by addind one or two extra rounds as a house rule. Right now I didn't make changes but I can imagine that I would like to de-accelarate Small World sometimes.
Big variance of the strength of race combinations
Isn't this good? While in Vinci everyone was tempted to take the first combination possible, which even lead to the variance to pay only one point for each skipped race, you really have to make an important decision. During the game there might pile up a lot of money on one race combination (Fortified Dwarfs?!) that it somewhen will be taken, just because of the money. I agree, that some of the races are better and some are really worse. But that is mainly because of the channeling between races and powers. In Small World it is wanted to skip races and to increase value of lesser combinations through money piles on top of them. In Small World it's really important to decline at the best possible moment to get a powerful combination. Even just because to make sure that nobody else will get it.
Getting a race with bonus points is more important than in Vinci
I can't agree on this one. While Pillaging is great, Humans and Wizards are not. A lot of tokens is important and the ability to defend them or to have attack bonus. Since mountains score as well, getting bonus points is less important than in Vinci (where Mining was the best civ).
In Small World you have to keep your race on the board. If you only change the race twice you are most obviously the winner. If you have to decline more often you're doing bad.
Adjacency is missing
I think adjacency fits really well to Vinci. It has a big playing board. Small World is more about beating up races and getting beaten up. Partially that's because of the smaller board but also because of the missing adjacency. I can't say what's better but right now I really like the quick gameplay and that you don't have to think about adjacency.
The dice I personally found the possibility to calculate everything in Vinci a bit over the top and recognized a lot of Analysis Paralysis while playing. The dice is really cool and the only thing that benefits smaller races. I wouldn't recommend to abandon him (as other suggested, to use him only for berserk).
Bottomline. I think Small World is a stand-alone product besides Vinci. If I've got an advanced playing group I will certainly try out Vinci with them from time to time. But as Small World is right now my flavor of the month, the occasions where I really play Vinci might be sparse.
When I play Small World more and more, maybe I have to learn that it didn't get to make the step to be a real family game, while it loses some depth of Vinci at the same time. But the core elements that Vinci made appealing to me (which wasn't adjacency or being the ultra-controlable answer to "Risk") are stronger in Small World. It's about recognizing which race is best and when is the best time to decline it, while trying to stay inconspicous. That was the core element was Vinci made appealing to me and Small World increased it.
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Mikael von Knorring
Sweden
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aforandy wrote: Having men on the ground is as critical as in Vinci, but keeping them there is harder. For this reason Merchant Wizards is unlikely ever to be chosen, and 1VP each time it is overlooked is not enough. Getting races with bonus VP is even more important than in Vinci, since the big successful races scoring 1VP per space seems unlikely to win. Admittedly one would hope these effects would cancel out, but they don't, and if they did it would probably favour an uninvolved player.
I don't get this part. Are you saying that bonus-VP-powers are not strong enough to merit choosing, or the reverse, or something else entirely?
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Matt Crawford
United States San Francisco California
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Quote: the writing of a review should provide some type of overview of the product and its intent.
When I read reviews, I always skip over that part. It's never very useful to me. One short paragraph describing the mechanics of the game should be plenty.
I'm more interested in opinions and analysis of the game than descriptions of mechanics.
Granted, here he didn't even have that short paragraph, but he does have a title that pretty much sums up the mechanics of the game. 
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Thanks for the review.
It touched on all my concerns regarding the more family friendly design. I can now write it off my list of possible purchases.
Funny thing is it will probably attract a larger audience than Vinci did. But for me it is definitely a no-go.
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Michael D. Kelley
United States Silver Spring Maryland
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Just to jump in on the "review or not" question, I have to side against Darrell here. In a venue where only one review is available for a given product (a video game magazine review, for example) the solo review should stand alone as a complete, objective review of the product.
But here on BGG we have numerous reviews for individual games, especially big-budget offerings like Small World. There are already a few reviews that go through rules, components, etc. Andy is giving a more focused review here, just looking at what fails for him in this game.
That being said, I don't think this is a WELL-WRITTEN review, and I would never give it a thumb of approval. The review does not help me much (since I have never played Vinci), it is poorly explained, and some parts seem almost incomprehensible. I would still approve it as a mod for the review category, but I wouldn't recommend it to the average BGG user.
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Christopher Taylor
United States Lake Forest California
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I don't want objective reviews. I want opinions. Agree, disagree, whatever... have a point, don't suck.
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Russ Williams
Poland Wrocław Dolny Śląsk
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GameMasterX0 wrote: That being said, I don't think this is a WELL-WRITTEN review, and I would never give it a thumb of approval. The review does not help me much (since I have never played Vinci), it is poorly explained, and some parts seem almost incomprehensible.
As a concrete example:
Quote: The die is a silly crapshoot that introduces a worse problem than the one it was intended to solve. The balance of VP it decides is enough to change VP order at game end. They didn't like this sort of thing in Streetcar. What does this mean? How is the die used? All I know is I'm supposed to take the reviewer's word for it that some die introduces too much randomness somehow, without knowing anything concrete about it. (And who are the "they" who didn't like this sort of thing in Streetcar? What is "this sort of thing"?)
The review/article/whatever isn't telling me much useful information as a person potentially interested in the game (unless I just automatically trust the reviewer on faith that the game sucks). It seems more like a nuts-and-bolts conversation with people who already are familiar with the game, about whether they think the game works well or not.
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Andy Daglish
United Kingdom Cheadle Cheshire
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Micke76 wrote: I don't get this part. Are you saying that bonus-VP-powers are not strong enough to merit choosing, or the reverse, or something else entirely?
Both. I think you need ten men and a VP bonus. I imagine sacrificing one to have more of the other will work poorly, especially in the final turns. We were playing four-player, and Andy Ogden's mining Dwarves were sitting in castles on mineral symbols along the bottom edge, in decline, with active Hill Skeletons who maintained their numbers from the middle to the end. These gave him up to 16 points a turn, and he won by a similar amount. His opponents either couldn't or saw little point in attacking the Dwarves, and wanted to stay away from the skeletons.
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Joseph
Spain
Today, we're all Spaniards!
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Hi Andy
Some personal observations, intended as constructive. 
I know nothing about Small World or Vinci, so paragraphs 1-2 made no sense to me at all. You might consider phrasing your review so that it does not require familiarity with another game.
I understand paragraph 3 because I play Command and Colors Ancients. Many wargamers would probably be familiar with "adjacency", although I'm uncertain if that's the common term.
Paragraph 4 criticizes the die mechanism, without providing any real insight as to how, why, or when it is used. The reader can't understand why something is bad without the context of what it does, or does not do. All we learn by your description is that it has some influence on VP distribution, and that you don't like it. You also mentioned the game "Streetcar", which I'm unfamiliar with.
Your last paragraph took a few reads to understand. The use of language is a bit clumsy. I think you meant something like this?:
"Allegedly, Small World is a better 2-3 player game for non-gamers than Vinci. Personally, I see no reason to sell your copy of Vinci just yet. I wonder however, how YOU would have reacted if Vinci had been published AFTER Small World as an upgrade or expansion?"
Respectfully
Falloutfan
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Heiko Hartmann
Germany Stuttgart Unspecified
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aforandy wrote: Micke76 wrote: I don't get this part. Are you saying that bonus-VP-powers are not strong enough to merit choosing, or the reverse, or something else entirely? Both. I think you need ten men and a VP bonus. I imagine sacrificing one to have more of the other will work poorly, especially in the final turns. We were playing four-player, and Andy Ogden's mining Dwarves were sitting in castles on mineral symbols along the bottom edge, in decline, with active Hill Skeletons who maintained their numbers from the middle to the end. These gave him up to 16 points a turn, and he won by a similar amount. His opponents either couldn't or saw little point in attacking the Dwarves, and wanted to stay away from the skeletons.
So, his opponents lost because they did some very bad decisions? Maybe you shouldn't play Small World with 'Dummies' after all.
My view on this Vinci vs Small World comparison: Vinci was a really good game but the kingmaker problem in the last turn ruined it all. In the Small World games I played so far, most of the time I was unable to exactly tell which of my opponents currently has the most points. I consider this a fix.
The die in Small World changes a decision based on facts (which is easy) into a decision based on probabilities (which is also easy - and more realistic). All players I had played the game with had no problem with this.
I really love the short playing time of Small World! The design of this game is very elegant and even with five players we had zero down time.
The artwork of Vinci was... huh... well, I have secured myself the 2nd version playing board from the publisher which was better but still...
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Stephen Owen
United Kingdom Appleton Cheshire
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Vinci is an interesting beast being a crossover between a euro and more conventional wargames. Small World is more of an entry level euro with greater accessibility but of less interest to seasoned players.Andy D has voiced his opinion on SW after one play in his usual inarticulate, verbose and peculiar style. AD began the game he describes with swamp amazons which gave him lots of points and presumably made him feel he should win the game quite easily. Unfortunately he held on to his amazons rather too long and then made a poor choice in his new combo with merchant wizards when his closest opponent was laying waste to the neighbourhood with hill skeletons. Mounted giants would have served him rather better but sadly AD was unable to see this. I don't mind people winging about games provided they have an experience base of that game to comment from. Slagging a game in which you played inoptimally once and came last seems to be a poor platform from which to rubbish said game. Playing SW for the first time made me pine for Vinci but there is little doubt that SW appeals to a different audience where accessibility is a prime concern. Certainly I was able to intice my girlfriend into a game of SW when she would not have considered a forbidding beast such as Vinci. I suspect SW shines in the 2/3 player game with a specially designed smaller board compared with the one size fits all version of Vinci.
Steve
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Richard Dewsbery
United Kingdom Sutton Coldfield
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kent_bro wrote: I do agree to some extent, that number of tokens is the highest commodity. Because the scoring traits/races have less tokens, they are a little bit weak compared to those Amazons and Tritons e.g.
The real issue is that most of the bonus scoring traits (except Dwarves?) go once the civ is in decline. So you only score the points while active. Whereas a bucketload of tokens scores both when they are active and expansing, but also when the civ has gone into decline. Put it another way - a civ with 6 regions including 2 bonus areas gets 8 points per turn until it declines, then only 6 per turn; whereas a civ with more tokens might be able to claim 8 regions for 8 points both before and after decline.
Of course, there's a lot riding on how your civ's abilities work together. If at all. Beserk Dwarves, for example, might be able to claim 3 or 4 mine regions, and if they're in the mountains they are a shoe-in for generating steady points for a while. But if your beserk Dwarves roll blanks 7 attacks in a row, don't be surprised if they score very few points, decline fast and get the living stuffing knocked out of them by the next civ on the block.
Oh, and I have a new reason to loathe hidden VPs. If you get off to a reasonable start, and have a vocal opponent who is believed by everyone else at the table, your first turn good fortune rapidly turns into a kicking every single sodding turn for the rest of the game. Which gets bloody old, bloody fast. Bitter, moi?
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Andy Daglish
United Kingdom Cheadle Cheshire
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steveowen wrote: Vinci is an interesting beast being a crossover between a euro and more conventional wargames.
but of course it has no connection whatsoever with any of the thousands dollars worth of wargame design you buy every year, which you might gather if you had the time or inclination to play it. But then the risk of losing would rachet up a lot.
Quote: Small World is more of an entry level euro with greater accessibility but of less interest to seasoned players.
because?
Quote: Andy D has voiced his opinion on SW after one play in his usual inarticulate, verbose and peculiar style.
Don't knock it. It got you that 200 dollars for the Paizo article.
Quote: AD began the game he describes with swamp amazons which gave him lots of points and presumably made him feel he should win the game quite easily.
the visceral fear, made worse by occasional realisation.
Quote: Unfortunately he held on to his amazons rather too long
but long enough 
Quote: and then made a poor choice in his new combo with merchant wizards when his closest opponent was laying waste to the neighbourhood with hill skeletons. Mounted giants would have served him rather better but sadly AD was unable to see this.
I think you are wrong here, and for the reasons previously mentioned. Merchant Wizards got the points for me immediately. Mounted Giants would not have, because these do not get bonus points, rather they take VP off others.
Quote: I don't mind people winging about games provided they have an experience base of that game to comment from. Slagging a game in which you played inoptimally once and came last seems to be a poor platform from which to rubbish said game.
and yet somehow I seem to be doing better than your good self, and your last post to Geek was six months ago.
Quote: Playing SW for the first time made me pine for Vinci but there is little doubt that SW appeals to a different audience where accessibility is a prime concern. Certainly I was able to intice my girlfriend into a game of SW when she would not have considered a forbidding beast such as Vinci.
Anyone can play Vinci, the question is, do they want to? I have felt for some time there's an ungentlemanly element to the ardent desire of Geeks to push games on women. Why should we succeed where the world's game software industry comprehensively failed?
Quote: I suspect SW shines in the 2/3 player game with a specially designed smaller board compared with the one size fits all version of Vinci.
Flying and Underworld would render "special design" meaningless, along with everything else aforementioned. The boards must vary in size due to the simplicity of the design.
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Chris Ferejohn
United States San Francisco California
Pitying fools as hard as I can...
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On the meta-review discussion: I agree that it is not necessary for a review to give a detailed summary of the game. If someone wants to do that, particularly for a new/hot game, great, but it is not necessary.
However, a review *should* be written with the intent of giving someone who knows little or nothing about the game an idea of whether they would like it. This means that if you are going to talk about a mechanic that you think does or does not work, you need to explain that mechanic to the degree necessary for readers to know what you are talking about.
If this review had explicitly said it was for Vinci players, fine, but barring that "The die is a silly crapshoot that introduces a worse problem than the one it was intended to solve" is a completely useless sentence in the context of this being a review.
The idea that reviews can somehow be "objective" is frankly odd. A review implies an opinion. That said, if you like something or don't like something you should say *why*. Saying "it's really fun!" or "it's boring and pointless" is pretty damned useless.
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