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Age of Steam Expansion: Eastern US & Canada» Forums » General

Subject: Any Way to Use This with Steam? rss

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Brad Andrews
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I stupidly thought this would be usable with Steam (which I just got). The price seemed reasonable, but I should have followed my inclination to not buy this.

Any idea/suggestion on how to get value out of this besides selling it to someone in Euorpe?

I will probably end up offering it in the BGG.CON Math Trade this year....

It does seem like a good color printer could match the quality of may of these maps. The paper is nice, but I wonder how long such maps will compete. Though I suppose letting them drop out of print/sale helps keep them rare!

Brad
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John Bohrer
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It is an Age of Steam expansion, for use with Age of Steam.

The Railroad Tycoon expansions are for use with Railroad Tycoon.

The Chicago Express expansions are for use with Chicago Express.

At $9.99, the Eastern US & Canada expansion is two #100 lb cover weight 11"x17" full color sheets with rules. Mounted expansions cost at least twice as much.
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Costas
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While there's talk about using AoS expansions with Steam and whether or not you can do it well, this expansion is specifically made to extend the base Age of Steam rust belt map.

I would say to get your best value out of this you should purchase Age of Steam and play this expansion with it.



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Brad Andrews
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John Bohrer wrote:
It is an Age of Steam expansion, for use with Age of Steam.

The Railroad Tycoon expansions are for use with Railroad Tycoon.

The Chicago Express expansions are for use with Chicago Express.

At $9.99, the Eastern US & Canada expansion is two #100 lb cover weight 11"x17" full color sheets with rules. Mounted expansions cost at least twice as much.


Gee, that's really helpful.

Thanks for clarifying it, though I think I noted it. I will avoid products from Winsome in the future....

Brad
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Brad Andrews
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rockusultimus wrote:
I would say to get your best value out of this you should purchase Age of Steam and play this expansion with it.





If you can convince my wife of that, especially with the "fixed price" of the reprinted AoS, and I would consider it.

I think I will be sticking with Steam since I enjoyed that and I already own RRT/Rails of Europe.

Brad
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John Bohrer
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andrews777 wrote:
John Bohrer wrote:
It is an Age of Steam expansion, for use with Age of Steam.

The Railroad Tycoon expansions are for use with Railroad Tycoon.

The Chicago Express expansions are for use with Chicago Express.

At $9.99, the Eastern US & Canada expansion is two #100 lb cover weight 11"x17" full color sheets with rules. Mounted expansions cost at least twice as much.


Gee, that's really helpful.

Thanks for clarifying it, though I think I noted it. I will avoid products from Winsome in the future....

Brad


Please do that, Brad. They are not for everyone. Leave the few we can produce for others, there's a good lad.
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Brad Andrews
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John Bohrer wrote:
Please do that, Brad. They are not for everyone. Leave the few we can produce for others, there's a good lad.


Your attitude certainly makes it uninviting as well. Who twisted your underwear? Do you always have to be hostile? Is it inate in your family?

Great customer service....

Though that doesn't appear very high on your list.

Brad
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J C Lawrence
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andrews777 wrote:
Great customer service....


I believe he did in fact do you a service. You may not like its expression, but the point is earnest: you are not in Winsome Games' demographic, print runs are small verging on tiny, Winsome Games are highly sought after by fans of the company's games, and it would be appreciated both by the company and by those that want the games if the very few copies that are made went to those that really want them. It does nothing but hurt Winsome Games and their customers if their games end up going to people who don't want them. The goal is to get the games to the people that want them as efficiently as possible, and that includes not getting them to the people who don't want them.

Quote:
Though that doesn't appear very high on your list. :(


John's customer service to those who are actually his customers, to those who are interested in playing the games he develops and publishes, is effusive, wonderful and quite over the top. It is quite amazing.
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Eddie Mittelstedt
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I can offer my affirmation of John's commitment to customer service. Over the months he has bent over backwards for me with some really strange requests - things he could have easily said "No, sorry" to.
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Tim Gilberg
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andrews777 wrote:

Your attitude certainly makes it uninviting as well. Who twisted your underwear? Do you always have to be hostile? Is it inate in your family?


Odd, his attitude, from the start, was more friendly than yours. (Which, when talking about John Bohrer, is saying something.) Is this a do-as-I-say-not-as-I-do sort of thing?
 
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Brad Andrews
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Huh? The stupidity was mine. I ordered something without researching its applicability to me as much as I should have. I missed the fact that it requires the base board until after my order was placed for a while. I do not blame anyone for that but myself!

His response was obnoxious and one of the reasons I have avoided other purchases of his products in the past. It is also the reason I went for Steam rather than the Fred game (though their pricing policy has annoyed me for a while).

I am a customer as well, since I do own the expansion. I went ahead and opened it last night to make sure I wasn't missing something, which is why I asked here. A nice response of "I'm sorry, but the expansion can only work with the board in the base AoS game," would have been much nicer and more appropriate to a customer than a sarcastic "you're hosed" reply.

If you view my collection, you would note that I own quite a bit, so while he may be willing to tick anyone off he is even remotely bothered with, that is still not good customer service since I could easily decide to buy the new AoS version and all expansion maps. (A bit much now (based on my budget),but a theoretical possibility.) A nicer response would make that more of a possibility if/when I decided I wanted something else to collect.

Being a stinker does not help that. I don't think he cares, but it is a pretty poor attitude for a publisher and someone who wants to thrive in this modern economic climate. Though it does seem consistent with his posts in the past argument threads over AoS. And the same individual seems to have jumped into defend WG without any thought that he might be obnoxious.

It is interesting trying to craft this without violating the use rules of BGG. I wouldn't push as far as some, but this is very immature behavior and I would call it as such in terms that could get me in trouble if I am not watchful.

Brad
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Michael Webb
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Not trying to pile on here, but with a little bit of research it would have been easy to see that this expansion requires the Rust Belt from the base Age of Steam game and was designed to be used with AoS in mind. I actually answered a question to this effect a few weeks ago (I think it was in General Gaming and not in the forum for this game entry?).

This sort of problem is exactly why I was irked when Mayfair was initially promoting Steam as 100% backwards compatible with Age of Steam. It's not. You can cobble many AoS expansions into Steam expansions, but they won't work as they were designed to in most cases. Even my own efforts to this end, which basically revert the rules to AoS in all ways, still isn't perfect because Steam has too many complex tiles, and in my map they are commonly used up because track building is extremely tight.

Again, don't think of Steam as a way to play AoS maps, it's not. You need Age of Steam to play Age of Steam maps, at least if you want to play them as they were originally designed.
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Brad Andrews
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CortexBomb wrote:
Not trying to pile on here, but with a little bit of research it would have been easy to see that this expansion requires the Rust Belt from the base Age of Steam game and was designed to be used with AoS in mind. I actually answered a question to this effect a few weeks ago (I think it was in General Gaming and not in the forum for this game entry?).


I already noted I failed to do that research.

I was trying to find if i could salvage anything, that is all. Past information about Steam was that it could use AoS expansions (at least some) and that was my aim.

Note that a few AoS expansions are listed on the Steam page. Should those be removed?

Brad
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J C Lawrence
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andrews777 wrote:
I am a customer as well, since I do own the expansion.


That is perhaps the source of the divide. Anyone may buy a Winsome Game product. Likewise anyone may buy a copy of Die Macher. Mere purchase of the product an economic accident. Such purchasers aren't customers except to the degree that they have not controlled their spending. The actual customers are those that want and then deliberately go out of their way to seek out and buy the product.

In the west, and especially in America, we're not used to being told that not only are we not customers of a company, despite the fact we bought their product, but that the company actually doesn't want us as customers and would prefer it if we went somewhere else. The customer isn't always right. Sometimes the customer is not in fact a customer.

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I don't think he cares, but it is a pretty poor attitude for a publisher and someone who wants to thrive in this modern economic climate.


That's a poor assumption and possibly the second root of the problem. It is fairly clear that Winsome Games is not in the business of publishing games in order to maximise profits by building a well-developed customer base. While that is the standard business model that we, especially Americans, have come to assume and expect of any business, it simply isn't true for Winsome Games, and expecting John or Winsome Games to behave as if it were, to behave pretty much like almost any other publisher out there, is a recipe for disappointment.

If you start with the assumptions that Winsome Games' purposes are to:

a) Enable development of interesting train games that will be licensed for publication by other companies

b) Provide small numbers of train games to dedicated and interested customers cum fans

c) Fund John's annual Essen trip

Then the company and John's behaviour may make more sense to you. The first is of course the biggie and everything else is subservient to that. Customer Development in the standard marketing/Steve Blank/etc sense is not part of the picture, and neither is general marketing or brand management. After all, customers are only valuable to the extent that they support and enable the development process. The apparency is that Winsome Games has pursued establishing 1000 True Fans, has long-since reached that critical threshold, and is thus coasting on its well proven and successful model while it works on its real goals. This is not to say that John does not care about his customers, he obviously and actively cares for them a great deal, but his customers are the self-selected and dedicated 1,000 true fans, the aficionados, and not the broader general market. The broader market, the general populace, the larger population of gamers are to an extent unwanted distractions that do nothing but make problems for a smooth running system geared to a specific and different purpose.

Quote:
And the same individual seems to have jumped into defend WG without any thought that he might be obnoxious.


You'd be mistaken there.
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Brad Andrews
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lamplite wrote:
Just do a little research before you buy or ask a question that is easily answered by a little reading.


I was just asking if anyone knew of a way to use it in my situation, noting why I had purchased it. I believe that is a proper use of the forums. It seems none exists, though perhaps someone will respond with a use in the future. I may list it for sale and wait for B&B to sell out in the future. That may not happen soon. It depends on how many were printed and how many sales of the new version occur. The pool for it is limited, though who knows?

Quote:
Edit - and if I had a larger game group I'd offer to buy your expansion that one has been out of print for a long time before this run and it's a very good deal for 10 bucks


That's what will probably happen (some group, not necessarily yours). As I think I noted, it will probably go in the BGG.CON math trade, though anyone reading this closer to BGG.CON 2009 can PM me for a possible "shipping free sale". (Or I will sell it with my stuff at the flea market!)

Brad
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Brad Andrews
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Even funding an Essen trip requires some customers. Insulting them because they didn't research enough before purchasing your product is a pretty poor strategy by any standard, though perhaps good customer service really is an "American thing." If so, I will live with expecting that!

I am not sure which "he" I was referring to in my previous post, but both candidates are certainly obnoxious.

Have a nice day!

Brad
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Malachi Brown
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andrews777 wrote:
I was just asking if anyone knew of a way to use it in my situation... It seems none exists, though perhaps someone will respond with a use in the future.

As amusing as this thread had been, I will take a crack at this.

You could learn origami and fold the map into a fairly sturdy box that could be used to store components or in place of the draw bag for the cubes.
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Chris Rudram
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a) Enable development of interesting train games that will be licensed for publication by other companies

Being a bit sharp with your Winsome customers can actively hurt you selling licences to other companies.

I'm not a customer of Winsome (I like the games I got from them, hate the production). I might be a customer of FRED/Mayfair/Queen.

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Your best bet is to sell it or trade it in order to get something Steam compatible.
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Brad Andrews
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Malachi wrote:
You could learn origami and fold the map into a fairly sturdy box that could be used to store components or in place of the draw bag for the cubes.


Finally, a helpful solution!

Thanks!

Brad
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Brad Andrews
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lamplite wrote:
I was referring to you asking the question if the other expansions should be removed the Steam page.


One of the replies firmly noted that Age of Steam expansions were for Age of Steam. That is only true if they don't also include Steam "conversion rules". This thread did point that out to me, so I guess it was worthwhile, but I was responding to that comment when I made mine, not the general theory.

Brad
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John Bohrer
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clearclaw wrote:
andrews777 wrote:
Great customer service....


I believe he did in fact do you a service. You may not like its expression, but the point is earnest: you are not in Winsome Games' demographic
[/q]

Definitely not, but I can suggest a solution to Brad.

Brad can enter the expansion in Christina Jo's charity auction geeklist:

http://www.boardgamegeek.com/geeklist/43476

and if he promises never to buy another Winsome produced game, either used or new from a third party as he did here, I will gladly send him $10.

OK, Brad?



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Brad Andrews
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John Bohrer wrote:
clearclaw wrote:
andrews777 wrote:
Great customer service....


I believe he did in fact do you a service. You may not like its expression, but the point is earnest: you are not in Winsome Games' demographic


Definitely not, but I can suggest a solution to Brad.

Brad can enter the expansion in Christina Jo's charity auction geeklist:

http://www.boardgamegeek.com/geeklist/43476

and if he promises never to buy another Winsome produced game, either used or new from a third party as he did here, I will gladly send him $10.

OK, Brad?



[/q]

My wife would like the deal, though she would like it extended to other games. I will consider the auction, but I'll pass on the cash offer since I cannot guarantee I will think about what I buy to make sure I really do comply. I tend to buy what looks interesting, so I could violate it and I wouldn't want to be obligated to not do that.

Brad
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John Bohrer
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andrews777 wrote:
My wife would like the deal, though she would like it extended to other games. I will consider the auction, but I'll pass on the cash offer since I cannot guarantee I will think about what I buy to make sure I really do comply. I tend to buy what looks interesting, so I could violate it and I wouldn't want to be obligated to not do that.

Brad


Gotcha
 
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Brad Andrews
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At the risk of stiring up bad thoughts, I wanted to clarify my comments here, since this came up in another thread.

andrews777 wrote:
I stupidly thought this would be usable with Steam (which I just got). The price seemed reasonable, but I should have followed my inclination to not buy this.


The stupidity here was all mine. I really need to read about what I am buyin closer first....

Quote:
Any idea/suggestion on how to get value out of this besides selling it to someone in Euorpe?


I mentioned this because it looked like people in Europe wanted the expansion, but were having a harder time getting it.

Quote:
I will probably end up offering it in the BGG.CON Math Trade this year....


Just noting my possible plans. I now own AoS, so I will likely keep it.

Quote:
It does seem like a good color printer could match the quality of may of these maps. The paper is nice, but I wonder how long such maps will compete. Though I suppose letting them drop out of print/sale helps keep them rare!


This is more my own comment on the business viability of this kind of business model. I am probably not accounting for the costs sufficiently, but I recently got a Lexmark color laser printer for less than $300 that could come close to the same quality. That is likely to put price pressure on items like this, since they are so easy to copy otherwise. This is not a fault of Winsome or anyone else, more a possible drawback to the market.

It is harder to charge a lot for something that an individual can do on their own. I should put this in its own thread though, since it is more of a philosophical pondering than a direct application of this supplement. The supplement is of good quality for what it is. I am just being a curmudgeon and thinking of the mounted Avalon Hill-type materials I suppose!

I don't know if this will clarify anything or just annoy people more, but hopefully it at least clarifies my intent. I am still a curmudgeon at times no matter what....

Brad
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