Recommend
2 
 Thumb up
 Hide
54 Posts
Prev «  1 , 2 , 3  Next »   | 

Age of Steam Expansion: Eastern US & Canada» Forums » General

Subject: Any Way to Use This with Steam? rss

Your Tags: Add tags
Popular Tags: priceless [+] victim [+] [View All]
Brad Andrews
United States
Garland
Texas
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
andrews777 wrote:
I will avoid products from Winsome in the future....


This was clearly made in haste, though I haven't bought anything directly from them (at least not yet).

Being told that expansions for a game are for that game didn't tell me if anyone knew a way to repurpose the expansion. A mere "I'm sorry, no options like that exist now" would have been much more helpful, or at least more cordial.

Brad
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Bruce Murphy
Australia
Pyrmont
NSW
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
andrews777 wrote:

It is harder to charge a lot for something that an individual can do on their own. I should put this in its own thread though, since it is more of a philosophical pondering than a direct application of this supplement. The supplement is of good quality for what it is. I am just being a curmudgeon and thinking of the mounted Avalon Hill-type materials I suppose!


Excellent comparison. I'd prefer Winsome didn't go bankrupt if you don't mind. As to 'an individual could do on their own', there are people that advocate wholesale copying of Winsome games with the excuse that you can't buy them today. Forum rules prevent me saying what I think of those people.

In short, there's a great deal more to a game than the materials that it is made from.

B>
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
jim b
United States
Berkeley
California
flag msg tools
Brad, looks like $10 is your best offer so far.

I have the Rust Belt map too, so I think I have what it takes to play this extension with Steam as you hoped.

I offer you $12 for your map - we split shipping.

I will promise you to play it with Steam. I get a new map, and we both avoid doing business with JB that he would find 'undesirable'.

So, everyone wins - deal?
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Brad Andrews
United States
Garland
Texas
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
Thanks for the offer, but I have solved my problem of not being able to use it by buying a copy of AoS that I found at a discount.

Now I just have to find people to play it with (and find where I put it), but that is another problem.

Brad
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Brad Andrews
United States
Garland
Texas
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
thepackrat wrote:
andrews777 wrote:

It is harder to charge a lot for something that an individual can do on their own. I should put this in its own thread though, since it is more of a philosophical pondering than a direct application of this supplement. The supplement is of good quality for what it is. I am just being a curmudgeon and thinking of the mounted Avalon Hill-type materials I suppose!


Excellent comparison. I'd prefer Winsome didn't go bankrupt if you don't mind. As to 'an individual could do on their own', there are people that advocate wholesale copying of Winsome games with the excuse that you can't buy them today. Forum rules prevent me saying what I think of those people.

In short, there's a great deal more to a game than the materials that it is made from.

B>


I was not advocating copying the item, I was just noting the ease of doing so. Once it becomes too easy, stopping it becomes much more difficult.

You can wish good thoughts a company's way all you want, it will only ultimately survive if it has something people will buy and pay for. I expect that Winsome does at this point, but that doesn't guarantee it will in the future.

I may end up buying their stuff somehow as well, now that I own 2 systems (Chicago Express and Age of Steam) and I still like the theme. I have to watch my rash statements, though I still have not been impressed with the personality of some of their strongest defenders. That said, JB was quite cordial in his offer to buy my copy above, even though the conditions were a bit harsh.

Compulsive game collectors have a hard time "staying on the wagon" when it comes to not purchasing something.

Brad
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Bruce Murphy
Australia
Pyrmont
NSW
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
andrews777 wrote:

I was not advocating copying the item, I was just noting the ease of doing so. Once it becomes too easy, stopping it becomes much more difficult.

So "I'm not saying you could copy it, but look at all these dry boards, one spark this lot would go up like a pile of tinder, know what I mean?" then?
Quote:

You can wish good thoughts a company's way all you want, it will only ultimately survive if it has something people will buy and pay for. I expect that Winsome does at this point, but that doesn't guarantee it will in the future.

Winsome produces really interesting games, but are not a fancy components shop. If they stop producing really interesting games, it's entirely possible that people will stop buying games from them. This is hardly profound.

Hopefully you realise that there's rather more to creating a game than printing it off.

B>
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
J C Lawrence
United States
Campbell
California
flag msg tools
designer
thepackrat wrote:
Winsome produces really interesting games, but are not a fancy components shop. If they stop producing really interesting games, it's entirely possible that people will stop buying games from them. This is hardly profound.


I'm content with:

Winsome Games have published more really interesting games in the last decade than any other publisher.

I doubt I even have to qualify the statement for accuracy.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Bruce Murphy
Australia
Pyrmont
NSW
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
clearclaw wrote:

I'm content with:

Winsome Games have published more really interesting games in the last decade than any other publisher.

I doubt I even have to qualify the statement for accuracy.


Well, sure, but what if what you're really interested in is nice chunky tiles with half-clothed warrior princesses on them? How does your Winsome stack up then?



B>
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Darren Dew
United States
Savannah
Georgia
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
clearclaw wrote:
andrews777 wrote:
Great customer service....


I believe he did in fact do you a service. You may not like its expression, but the point is earnest: you are not in Winsome Games' demographic, print runs are small verging on tiny, Winsome Games are highly sought after by fans of the company's games, and it would be appreciated both by the company and by those that want the games if the very few copies that are made went to those that really want them. It does nothing but hurt Winsome Games and their customers if their games end up going to people who don't want them. The goal is to get the games to the people that want them as efficiently as possible, and that includes not getting them to the people who don't want them.

Quote:
Though that doesn't appear very high on your list.


John's customer service to those who are actually his customers, to those who are interested in playing the games he develops and publishes, is effusive, wonderful and quite over the top. It is quite amazing.


I sit here in stunned disbelief. I've read through dozens, if not hundreds of slightly tilted posts by all kinds of people, you among them. But to listen to Bohrer's completely rude and insulting response to a POTENTIAL AND PAST customer, and then to read your complete and unfaltering support goes beyond blind loyalty.
6 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Brad Andrews
United States
Garland
Texas
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
Zelif wrote:
I sit here in stunned disbelief. I've read through dozens, if not hundreds of slightly tilted posts by all kinds of people, you among them. But to listen to Bohrer's completely rude and insulting response to a POTENTIAL AND PAST customer, and then to read your complete and unfaltering support goes beyond blind loyalty.


Makes you wonder, doesn't it?

Brad
3 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Aaron
United States
Huntington Beach
California
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
Zelif wrote:

I sit here in stunned disbelief. I've read through dozens, if not hundreds of slightly tilted posts by all kinds of people, you among them. But to listen to Bohrer's completely rude and insulting response to a POTENTIAL AND PAST customer, and then to read your complete and unfaltering support goes beyond blind loyalty.


My thoughts exactly. Can he shove his nose any farther up Johns ass or what?!
3 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Jack Neal
United States
Liverpool
New York
flag msg tools
designer
mbmbmb
Sigh....

Quote:
The Short List:
Use common courtesy in your posts
Respect others


4 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Bruce Murphy
Australia
Pyrmont
NSW
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
Zelif wrote:
clearclaw wrote:

John's customer service to those who are actually his customers, to those who are interested in playing the games he develops and publishes, is effusive, wonderful and quite over the top. It is quite amazing.


I sit here in stunned disbelief. I've read through dozens, if not hundreds of slightly tilted posts by all kinds of people, you among them. But to listen to Bohrer's completely rude and insulting response to a POTENTIAL AND PAST customer, and then to read your complete and unfaltering support goes beyond blind loyalty.


I'm not sure you did read his post. He specifically said 'actual customer'. "potential customers" aren't actual customers, and people who buy expansions for game X to play with game Y and then whinge about how terrible the production values are while trying to get rid of the expansion aren't meaningfully 'past' customers and are pretty certainly not going to be actual customers either.

See the difference? I certainly see a distinction between John's support for his actual customers and his support for, say, people who have AoS rules questions but have clearly never read the actual rules.

B>
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
J C Lawrence
United States
Campbell
California
flag msg tools
designer
Zelif wrote:
But to listen to Bohrer's completely rude and insulting response to a POTENTIAL AND PAST customer, and then to read your complete and unfaltering support goes beyond blind loyalty.


I don't believe insults are important. If you want to be feel insulted, then please be my guest. You may consider that I've insulted you in any way you care to devise. Please, have at it. I look forward to hearing what I did. This is a free ticket.

I don't believe any business has a responsibility to any customer they don't want to serve, past, future or potential except to the degree dictated by law or covered by contract. The only other responsibility a business has at this level is to its shareholders, not their customers. I don't believe you, or I, or Brad are Winsome shareholders. As limited by law and the rest, John is quite free to declare that you, me and anyone else are simply not their customer, for whatever whimsical reason he may contrive, and to thus not serve them and to ask them to stop impeding those he does wish to serve. Yep, the customer is not always right, especially when they're not a customer. If you want, call this Freedom of Speech where the speech involved is a business' communication to its customers via its products. I'm a big fan of Freedom of Speech, personal and commercial.

If you want, think of Winsome Games' customers as members of a club. The entrance fees are simple: you like, want and are willing to pay for and play the games that Winsome Games publishes a great deal and are willing to jump through the hoops required to be a member of the club. Or if you want, the entrance requirement is that you take all the crap dished out and smile while taking it while asking for more. Imagine also that Winsome Games is only interested in producing a very small number of games, and in very small volumes, and only for those members of the club that really really want them; not everybody, not any Tom, Dick or Harry, not the average BGG user, not anybody who can get a money order in the mail, just those people who share that degree of fervour for the games that Winsome Games offers. The games are for the enthusiasts, for the club members, not everyone else, just those self-selected few. Perhaps not you, not me until recently, perhaps only a rather very few people. Or if you want, Winsome's games are for breathless fan bois and no one else need apply.

Now lots of the details there are wrong, heck, all of the details and even the basic facts are wrong, it isn't a particulary accurate imagining, but it does appear to describe the basic behaviours and expectations of the people involved. To some perhaps not so small extent, Winsome Games is in business to serve fans of Winsome's games, and only to serve fans of Winsome's games. And frankly, I think that's pretty cool, delightful even. I thought that before I ever played a Winsome game, and I think it now. There are a lot of customer-centric businesses out there, scads of them (can you tell I've been studying Steve Blank's ideas on startups and Customer Development?) -- they're the norm. I find it refreshing to deal with an operation which not only has a different focus but is successfully staying true to that other focus. That's pretty damned neat, no matter whether I like their product or not.
4 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
J C Lawrence
United States
Campbell
California
flag msg tools
designer
thepackrat wrote:
Well, sure, but what if what you're really interested in is nice chunky tiles with half-clothed warrior princesses on them? How does your Winsome stack up then?


My teenage sons tell me I can find all sorts of pictures of partially clothed princesses on the Internet. Some of them might even be warriors. I'm pretty sure it won't be too hard to mount them on something. Given such good and willing material, I'm sure a solution can be devised. Heck, if the advertising is to be believed, they're just asking to be mounted in all lots of ways!
3 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Eric Flood
United States
San Francisco
California
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
Zelif wrote:
I sit here in stunned disbelief. I've read through dozens, if not hundreds of slightly tilted posts by all kinds of people, you among them. But to listen to Bohrer's completely rude and insulting response to a POTENTIAL AND PAST customer, and then to read your complete and unfaltering support goes beyond blind loyalty.


Let's look at the thread from the top:

Andrews777 wrote:
I stupidly thought this would be usable with Steam (which I just got).

...It does seem like a good color printer could match the quality of may of these maps. The paper is nice, but I wonder how long such maps will compete. Though I suppose letting them drop out of print/sale helps keep them rare!


We begin with a user admitting his mistake, while simultaneously insulting the components and insinuating that the expansion is kept rare on purpose just to drive up desire.

This is met with:

John Bohrer wrote:
It is an Age of Steam expansion, for use with Age of Steam.

The Railroad Tycoon expansions are for use with Railroad Tycoon.

The Chicago Express expansions are for use with Chicago Express.

At $9.99, the Eastern US & Canada expansion is two #100 lb cover weight 11"x17" full color sheets with rules. Mounted expansions cost at least twice as much.


Do you see an insult in there? I don't. I see basic information.

Followed-up with:

Andrews777 wrote:
Gee, that's really helpful.

Thanks for clarifying it, though I think I noted it. I will avoid products from Winsome in the future....


Which is quite a rude comment. Why does a reply with simple information lead to this statement?

It's not hard to imagine why it would generate such a response:

John Bohrer wrote:
Please do that, Brad. They are not for everyone. Leave the few we can produce for others, there's a good lad.


Andrews777 has already stated his blanket desire to avoid Winsome products in the future; Mr. Bohrer has two choices: chase after the customer, offering all sorts of services if only he'll return; or tell him that his products are apparently not something Andrews777 enjoys, so please stop buying them as they are limited in quantity.

Follwed with:

Andrews777 wrote:
Your attitude certainly makes it uninviting as well. Who twisted your underwear? Do you always have to be hostile? Is it inate in your family?


I might ask the same question of Andrews777, after reviewing these posts.

Quote:
Great customer service....


Indeed. JB responded to a post insulting a product with basic information that apparently the OP had missed. I'd call that pretty good service; at the point where the OP swears off their games, they no longer are a customer, and their consumer attention is not desired.

I truly fail to see how Mr. Bohrer can be painted as the "rude" one in this exchange; andrews777 has consistently paid little heed to common decency here (sorry to put it up there so bluntly...I do normally try to stay out of these messes, but sometimes people just grate on me enough to say something).

But it's ok - you wish to hate Mr. Bohrer for whatever weird reason; I can't do much to stop you, just try to get you to actually look at what was written.
4 
 Thumb up
1.00
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Brad Andrews
United States
Garland
Texas
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
blueatheart wrote:
Andrews777 wrote:
I stupidly thought this would be usable with Steam (which I just got).

...It does seem like a good color printer could match the quality of may of these maps. The paper is nice, but I wonder how long such maps will compete. Though I suppose letting them drop out of print/sale helps keep them rare!


We begin with a user admitting his mistake, while simultaneously insulting the components and insinuating that the expansion is kept rare on purpose just to drive up desire.


How is that insulting the components? Do you have a good color laser printer? I finally bought a Lexmark for under $350 and it can produce output very close to this. That is not saying the components are bad, but that the method of achieving the same is much more affordable.

Technology is advancing and changing many things. Why would the small print run game be different?

Quote:
This is met with:

John Bohrer wrote:
It is an Age of Steam expansion, for use with Age of Steam.

The Railroad Tycoon expansions are for use with Railroad Tycoon.

The Chicago Express expansions are for use with Chicago Express.

At $9.99, the Eastern US & Canada expansion is two #100 lb cover weight 11"x17" full color sheets with rules. Mounted expansions cost at least twice as much.


Do you see an insult in there? I don't. I see basic information.


That is quite condescending, at least the first part. Would you tell someone that "apples go in apple pies, peaches go in peach pies...?" The question was not what game it was for, the question was if it could still be used with Steam. The answer doesn't answer that question at all! The animeeples by Mayfair were produced for Agricola, but they can also be used for Settlers of Catan....

Quote:
Followed-up with:

Andrews777 wrote:
Gee, that's really helpful.

Thanks for clarifying it, though I think I noted it. I will avoid products from Winsome in the future....


Which is quite a rude comment. Why does a reply with simple information lead to this statement?

It's not hard to imagine why it would generate such a response:


As I noted above, telling me an expansion for a game is for that game was not helpful. I was asking if I could anyone knew how to repurpose it. At least that was my intent. I would state it a bit more clearly and save the philosophical pondering (about the business viability) for another thread. I didn't though, but that doesn't make the base question wrong.

Quote:
John Bohrer wrote:
Please do that, Brad. They are not for everyone. Leave the few we can produce for others, there's a good lad.


Andrews777 has already stated his blanket desire to avoid Winsome products in the future; Mr. Bohrer has two choices: chase after the customer, offering all sorts of services if only he'll return; or tell him that his products are apparently not something Andrews777 enjoys, so please stop buying them as they are limited in quantity.


Calling me a "good lad" is quite condescending. That is not the way a company should treat customers, even those who may not love the product. It is an insult, even if a more subtle one. (Though it seems pretty clear to me.)

Quote:
Follwed with:

Andrews777 wrote:
Your attitude certainly makes it uninviting as well. Who twisted your underwear? Do you always have to be hostile? Is it inate in your family?


I might ask the same question of Andrews777, after reviewing these posts.


JB twisted my underwear!

The insult was not nice and I had a knee jerk reaction to that, though I figured it was a regular happening since it was true in the other threads I had seen with his posts. Still, I should not have been insulting like that and I apologize for my words.

Quote:
Quote:
Great customer service....


Indeed. JB responded to a post insulting a product with basic information that apparently the OP had missed. I'd call that pretty good service; at the point where the OP swears off their games, they no longer are a customer, and their consumer attention is not desired.


I hadn't missed it. I noted it in my base post. I was trying to find if anyone knew a way to adapt it. I admitted to not reading the description closely enough. (I was thinking of the other expansions that say "Supports Steam" when I bought it.)

Quote:
I truly fail to see how Mr. Bohrer can be painted as the "rude" one in this exchange; andrews777 has consistently paid little heed to common decency here (sorry to put it up there so bluntly...I do normally try to stay out of these messes, but sometimes people just grate on me enough to say something).

But it's ok - you wish to hate Mr. Bohrer for whatever weird reason; I can't do much to stop you, just try to get you to actually look at what was written.


Calling me a "lad" is not common decency, though as I noted, I should not have responded as I did in the case noted above.

I should probably let this drop, but I am compelled.... After all, someone is wrong on the Internet....

Brad
3 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Eric Flood
United States
San Francisco
California
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
andrews777 wrote:


How is that insulting the components? Do you have a good color laser printer? I finally bought a Lexmark for under $350 and it can produce output very close to this. That is not saying the components are bad, but that the method of achieving the same is much more affordable.

Technology is advancing and changing many things. Why would the small print run game be different?


I imagine Mr. Bohrer has a similar printer (or, in the < $1000 range). Given the low number of print runs, it would be foolhardy to try and print these using an industrial printer. What you are paying for, and this is key to remember with every game, is the opportunity to play the game. You are paying for the time and development that went into said game; the components are extras. If you want toys, go to a toy store.

Quote:
That is quite condescending, at least the first part. Would you tell someone that "apples go in apple pies, peaches go in peach pies...?" The question was not what game it was for, the question was if it could still be used with Steam. The answer doesn't answer that question at all! The animeeples by Mayfair were produced for Agricola, but they can also be used for Settlers of Catan....


I would tell someone who does not seem to know this basic knowledge, yes. The animeeples are toys. I can use sheep as my discs in Age of Steam, should I so desire. I cannot, however, incorporate the Occupations into Age of Steam.

Quote:
As I noted above, telling me an expansion for a game is for that game was not helpful. I was asking if I could anyone knew how to repurpose it. At least that was my intent. I would state it a bit more clearly and save the philosophical pondering (about the business viability) for another thread. I didn't though, but that doesn't make the base question wrong.


Ok - but there is a good way to do this, and a bad way. Particularly given the problems of faceless names and confused emotions that leap from the page (due to lack of facial recognition patterns), I find it best to keep things as friendly as possible, rather than leaping into a perceived insult and starting an argument with passive-aggressive attacks. Not that I am not myself guilty of exactly this from time to time; I do, nevertheless, often regret them when they occur.

Quote:
Calling me a "good lad" is quite condescending. That is not the way a company should treat customers, even those who may not love the product. It is an insult, even if a more subtle one. (Though it seems pretty clear to me.)


Indeed. I do not try to claim it is not (and meant to label it as condescending above, actually). It is also not the first insult in this thread. Violence begets violence; insults and trollery are the most common forms of internet violence.

Quote:
JB twisted my underwear!

The insult was not nice and I had a knee jerk reaction to that, though I figured it was a regular happening since it was true in the other threads I had seen with his posts. Still, I should not have been insulting like that and I apologize for my words.


Cool. Even though I have absolutely no place to speak in this apology, I can appreciate you doing so. My knee-jerk reactions often come when I am drinking; I have learned to save them and review in the morning; if they still seem like a good idea, then I post it. To do otherwise invites trouble.

Quote:
I hadn't missed it. I noted it in my base post. I was trying to find if anyone knew a way to adapt it. I admitted to not reading the description closely enough. (I was thinking of the other expansions that say "Supports Steam" when I bought it.)


There has been an unfortunate great deal of misinformation regarding the adaptability of these maps. There are several individuals largely responsible for this; and via "telephone"-like rumor spreading, the claims that most maps should be adaptable quickly turned into "all" maps. There are in fact only a handful of maps that are truly supported, although there are ad-hoc rules changes in place for many others.

Quote:
Calling me a "lad" is not common decency, though as I noted, I should not have responded as I did in the case noted above.

I should probably let this drop, but I am compelled.... After all, someone is wrong on the Internet....

Brad


Just keep trying to reply rationally, should you choose to spend your time replying to various comments.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Darren Dew
United States
Savannah
Georgia
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
clearclaw wrote:
I don't believe insults are important.


I don't believe for an instant that you don't think that insults are important. In the face-to-face world, I'll BET you'd react differently to insluts than you claim to here.

Not that *I* felt insulted, nor did I imply YOU did the insulting. Bohrer did a bang-up job of that all on his own. And what he offered had nothing to do with the question asked.

The rest of your paragraphs proves my point. You clearly DON'T think Bohrer was being insulting because you're one of "the club". In the real world, that smacks of elitism and if you practice it wrong, say at a fraternity, they call it hazing and bullying and most people frown on it.

Enjoy your club. You and Bruce have cemented your position in my mind for a while, as Bohrer has done a looooong time ago. The point WAS that you don't think Bohrer was rude or dismissive and didn't see a problem with the way you've leaped to defend him. Thanks for making my point, and you can enjoy your thread and have a nice day.
3 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Darren Dew
United States
Savannah
Georgia
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
blueatheart wrote:
But it's ok - you wish to hate Mr. Bohrer for whatever weird reason; I can't do much to stop you, just try to get you to actually look at what was written.


I read it, and truly, you have to admit, don't you, that if that was said at a counter in a "Winsome" store that the person asking for help with the mispurchase would feel insulted, wouldn't you? I don't hate Bohrer, or much care for that matter. What I've seen in this thread, among others, but lets just stick with HERE, is a complete lack of grace and care about a customer. Parse "customer" however you want, but I still need my own customers. I'd really like to have them think of me as resource. They're not "potential" customers or "past" customers or "customers I don't need".

*I* am a customer that has been lost to even the rudimentary interest in Winsome's product due to Bohrer's repetitive attitude in speaking civilly. Its his right, certainly, but I'm not interested enough in ANY BOARDGAME to A) watch it happen to others, when I see it, nor B) endure it to any degree myself. They are after all just baordgames, and there are a lot of good companies out there that make them. I'll just skip the rest of Winsome's brand of "customer service", and move on to companies that run like people who give a crap about other people run them.
1 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Bruce Murphy
Australia
Pyrmont
NSW
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
Zelif wrote:

*I* am a customer that has been lost to even the rudimentary interest in Winsome's product due to Bohrer's repetitive attitude in speaking civilly. Its his right, certainly, but I'm not interested enough in ANY BOARDGAME to A) watch it happen to others, when I see it, nor B) endure it to any degree myself. They are after all just baordgames, and there are a lot of good companies out there that make them. I'll just skip the rest of Winsome's brand of "customer service", and move on to companies that run like people who give a crap about other people run them.


So why do you continue to post to these threads about games/expansions you have lost even the most rudimentary interest in?

B>
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
J C Lawrence
United States
Campbell
California
flag msg tools
designer
Zelif wrote:
I don't believe for an instant that you don't think that insults are important.


A significant portion of my life consists of others attempting to insult me. No, I don't think it is important.

Quote:
In the face-to-face world, I'll BET you'd react differently to insluts than you claim to here.


Perhaps, perhaps not. My normal reaction is to sidestep and succeed anyway.

Quote:
Not that *I* felt insulted, nor did I imply YOU did the insulting.


My point is rather than being insulted is a choice, an elective. Do it if you'd like, have fun with it by all means, but there's no requirement. If being insulted is somehow useful to you, please go for it with all your strength.

Quote:
The rest of your paragraphs proves my point. You clearly DON'T think Bohrer was being insulting because you're one of "the club".


Really? I'd like to know how you identify that so absolutely as causal. My views in this area haven't changed from before I was a fan of Winsome's games till now. I do not believe that companies have any obligation to their customers, past, future, or potential except those defined by law or contract. Everything else is grace.

Quote:
In the real world, that smacks of elitism and if you practice it wrong, say at a fraternity, they call it hazing and bullying and most people frown on it.


I'm quite unsure how to respond to this; it is so disjoint to my views of the advantages of personal focus. It is a Good Thing to have inclusive and exclusive groups, a very Good Thing.

Quote:
Enjoy your club.


Shrug. Not bothered there really; not interested in the club, not interested in the personalities, not interested in whole emotional-perception game, not interested in the personality, not interested in what they do or don't think about each other. I'm just interested in the games. Winsome has produced more really interesting games in the last few years than any other publisher around. I like that. I like really interesting games. I'm here, and there, for the games. All the rest is noise.

Quote:
The point WAS that you don't think Bohrer was rude or dismissive and didn't see a problem with the way you've leaped to defend him.


Let's try something a little more accurate. John's statements are clearly viewed by some as rude and dismissive and some of those people think that is somehow important and that somehow John has an obligation to them to behave differently. I'm not sure where that sense of entitlement or obligation comes from, as neither is in fact present. More personally, I didn't find them rude, I did find them dismissive, I don't consider either attribute important, and I most certainly don't consider that John necessarily has any obligation to those people or me or that they are entitled to any response larger than being ignored.
 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
J C Lawrence
United States
Campbell
California
flag msg tools
designer
Zelif wrote:
I read it, and truly, you have to admit, don't you, that if that was said at a counter in a "Winsome" store that the person asking for help with the mispurchase would feel insulted, wouldn't you?


Having minded the counter in several stores and escorted unwelcome but money-bearing purchase-wanting (non-)customers from the premises several times, as well as assisting said store's owners in the removal or dismissal of unwanted customers, no, I don't think I'd be insulted. Rather, I'd wonder how I'd been so clearly identified as a non-customer, whether that identification was accurate or not. what that identification cost me, and thus whether I cared enough change it.

Quote:
...is a complete lack of grace and care about a customer.


See, the funny thing is that John bends over backwards and then some for the people he does consider his customers, and with considerable grace as well mind you. It is quite amazing and in some ways a little embarrassing.

Quote:
Parse "customer" however you want, but I still need my own customers.


But does John need you as a customer? Perhaps, perhaps not.

Quote:
I'd really like to have them think of me as resource. They're not "potential" customers or "past" customers or "customers I don't need".


It is nice to be wanted and not so pleasurable to be dismissed out of hand. Sure, got that.

Quote:
*I* am a customer that has been lost to even the rudimentary interest in Winsome's product...


Okay. Next customer!
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Darren Dew
United States
Savannah
Georgia
flag msg tools
mbmbmbmbmb
thepackrat wrote:
So why do you continue to post to these threads about games/expansions you have lost even the most rudimentary interest in?


I may have misspoke, or you may have misunderstood. Let me be clear:

I have *NOW* lost any interest in discovering the wonderful Winsome catalogue. Okay? The reason I posted (and I did think this was quite clear), is that a simple question became a flaming bandwagon for Bohrer and the crew to heap veiled insult upon parsed dissection of a post and a response that has now grown into far more than it was EVER worth to begin with.

I don't like to see people being treated so poorly, okay? But now that I've said my piece, please continue with my (I'm quite sure welcome) absence.

Have a nice day, as always, and enjoy your thread.
2 
 Thumb up
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Michael Webb
United States
Western Mitten
flag msg tools
designer
mbmbmbmbmb
Zelif wrote:
I have *NOW* lost any interest in discovering the wonderful Winsome catalogue.


I think the point you're failing to register is that this probably doesn't matter particularly to John one way or the other. His customers tend to find him, and he has plenty to keep his hobby running (which is what Winsome is more than anything). He produces in small batches and only made the Essen set more available starting last year because the amount of demand was overtaking his normal preset limit of 80 Essen sets (which had itself moved up from 60 in the recent past). You're not going to convince him to change his PR persona based on threats of not purchasing goods because he has no need to attract more customers at this point.

Additionally, as JC has said (and as I and other Winsome customers here have said in the past), John treats his desired customer base with service that is beyond my ken to comprehend. This can be through direct generosity, or through more subtle means as well. I can honestly say that Winsome is the most customer-focused company I've ever had the privilege of dealing with, John does things for me as a customer that no other company I've dealt with would even consider. He also has a very strong BGG presence and is always quick to answer rules questions directly on BGG. No other company present here is as responsive to forum inquiries.

People can paint John as a jerk 7 days till Sunday, but the truth of the matter is that he knows the people that make up his regular customer base and he treats them exceptionally well. If you're not one of them, then the key to getting similar or at least friendly treatment is simply getting off on the right foot, and being the 900th person to complain about Winsome's production values and to imply that they're artificially driving up their prices by limiting supply (on a map selling for 10$ nonetheless) to boot probably isn't going to accomplish that. In the corporate business world, yes, you can step all over someone and still get them to smile at you. In the boutique hobbyist publishing world things don't always work that way, especially not when the person you're dealing with doesn't need your business.
2 
 Thumb up
1.00
 tip
 Hide
  • [+] Dice rolls
Prev «  1 , 2 , 3  Next »   | 
Front Page | Welcome | Contact | Privacy Policy | Terms of Service | Advertise | Support BGG | Feeds RSS
Geekdo, BoardGameGeek, the Geekdo logo, and the BoardGameGeek logo are trademarks of BoardGameGeek, LLC.