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Cosmic Encounter: Cosmic Incursion» Forums » Rules

Subject: Toomai's Timing Table (vI.3) rss

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Toomai Glittershine
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Remember the timing table I did a while ago? Well, it's about time I updated it. I figured that if I was gonna put the Incursion stuff in it, I might as well improve the base parts first. So here's the incomplete table done from scratch:

Version I.3 (19/03/10) (all Incursion content) (subroutine chart)
Version I.2 (06/02/10) (all base set content)
Version I.1 (05/02/10) (base 50 aliens and Techs only)

Improvements over the first version:

* Naturally printer-friendly (instead of a seperate version)
* Used effects vs innate effects (that is, distinguishing what can be and can't be zapped)
* Groups, loops, and skips (flowchart logic)
* Subroutines (nailing down "any phase" powers)

The to-do list:

* Sub-sections on combination legalizing (Gambler vs Sorcerer, Magician vs Oracle)

I'm posting the incomplete version so I could get feedback, in case you guys have improvement ideas.
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Barney Bustoffson
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Re: Toomai's Timing Table (vI.1)
It's pretty much the most insane thing I have seen in awhile. I may have to make a giant poster of it to hang in the den while we play.
 
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Stephen Stewart
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Re: Toomai's Timing Table (vI.1)
Appreciate the effort in the table, BUT DAMN!!! It'll take an hour to get through each challenge.

 
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Toomai Glittershine
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Re: Toomai's Timing Table (vI.1)
ASLChampion wrote:
Appreciate the effort in the table, BUT DAMN!!! It'll take an hour to get through each challenge.
Only if you actually slide your finger down the page and name the events as they happen. It's intended to be a guide on timing questions and such, with the basis being a combination of FAQ rulings and common sense.
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Ian Redford

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Re: Toomai's Timing Table (vI.2)
My question is rather specific, but it ends up effecting the Tripler Wild Flare, which reads "Wild: As a main player, after your opponent reveals an attack card or 15 or higher, you may divide that attack card's value by 3 (rounding up) before any other effects are applied."

Because of the "before any other effects are applied," I tend to think that it effects the "pure" encounter card—not the encounter card after, say, Mirror declares a reversal. Here's my breakdown:

Players choose cards (Mirror = 06; Zombie = 04)
Mirror declares a reversal.
Players Reveal Cards.
Mirror's effect takes place: 60 vs. 40.
Zombie plays Tripler wild to divide 60 by 3, making Mirror's value 20.

I DO NOT think the Tripler wild works in this case because of the "before any other effects are applied" comment. This seems to conflict with the Timing Table ... but I'm open to debate. Thoughts?
 
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Toomai Glittershine
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Re: Toomai's Timing Table (vI.2)
I haven't really subdivided the Reveal phase that much (currently everything happens at the "same time"), but that kind of stuff is what I'm seeking in terms of recommendations.

In my opinion, the order of effects should go something like this:

* Wild Tripler, as explicitly stated.
* Mandatory card-affecting powers such as Tripler.
* Optional card-affecting powers that were used in Planning, such as Mirror.
* Card-affecting effects that depend on the value of both cards, such as Calculator or Wild Gambler.
* Kickers.
* Anything else in the order they are invoked during Reveal. (This may cause a recalculation, such as turning an N into a 15 with Wild Pacifist.)

(Of course, I go to extreme lengths to avoid having to use the timing rule, so bleh.)
 
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Ian Redford

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Re: Toomai's Timing Table (vI.2)
I second your order of effects opinion. It's fairly clean cut ... but man, do those Wild Flares make things hard to time!
 
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Roger
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Re: Toomai's Timing Table (vI.2)
One recommendation and one question, so far:

Quote:
Pull all of the "Whenever ##INSERT ACTION HERE##" boxes that don't exist in the phase-to-phase flow of the diagram off to a separate chart.

This should reduce clutter a bit, and provide an explicit division of where to look for things: phase-specific vs. whenever-clauses. I do like the color-coded whenever-clauses, but this would help group these out further.
Quote:
Under reveal, you mentioned that you haven't sub-divided much, but to be clear, is everything back-shaded in yellow happening "simultaneously"?

I don't have a problem with that, per se, but it's not entirely clear from the diagram, as the Warpish and Chosen Super Flares are sort of wrapping-the-wings, and I just wanted to be sure that you were just grouping flares together for clarity in search.


All in all, it's a terrific effort. I've used the prior revision several times to settle timing disputes that have otherwise ground games to a halt. It makes for a nice third-party arbitrator that isn't currently involved in the game.
 
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Toomai Glittershine
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Re: Toomai's Timing Table (vI.2)
I was thinking about splitting the subroutines off to a seperate "page", and probably will for the next version.

The flares you mentioned are like that simply because they were several pixels away from fitting on the line with the rest of the flares, and I didn't want to make an entirely new flare row until I put the CI ones in.

And yes, in Reveal, the yellow shading groups simultaneous actions. It also groups the "loop" in Alliance and the branches in Resolution.
 
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Chris Withem

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Re: Toomai's Timing Table (vI.2)
Toomai Glittershine wrote:
I haven't really subdivided the Reveal phase that much (currently everything happens at the "same time"), but that kind of stuff is what I'm seeking in terms of recommendations.

In my opinion, the order of effects should go something like this:

* Wild Tripler, as explicitly stated.
* Mandatory card-affecting powers such as Tripler.
* Optional card-affecting powers that were used in Planning, such as Mirror.
* Card-affecting effects that depend on the value of both cards, such as Calculator or Wild Gambler.
* Kickers.
* Anything else in the order they are invoked during Reveal. (This may cause a recalculation, such as turning an N into a 15 with Wild Pacifist.)

(Of course, I go to extreme lengths to avoid having to use the timing rule, so bleh.)



a note...

Mirror changes the actual value of the revealed card. it is revealed as an 80 rather then 08. or at least this is how my table reads his power.

also a question...

by the above posting, you can reduce a card played by tripler, and then if fate works out tripler could then triple it? (wild-flaring the 30, then tripling back to a 30)
 
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Toomai Glittershine
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Re: Toomai's Timing Table (vI.2)
Yes, Wild Tripler and Tripler can (almost) undo each other, since the flare says it goes absolutely first (so a 20 would become 6 and then tripled to 18).

Now, as for the calculation order, I've worked most of it out, and things have changed a bit. Essentially:

* The Morph card, as well as the card-changing Wild Human, Wild Mirror, and Wild Pacifist, act first.
* Wild Tripler then acts - it can't act before the previous since they may not be numbers initially.
* Wild Calculator and Wild Gambler then go, since they're based on a guess as to the face value of the two cards.
* Tripler goes, since his power is automatic.
* Then there's Calculator and Mirror - and, unfortunately, I can't find a reason for one of them to take precedence over the other. Even worse, the order of application can make a massive difference.
* Finally, the Kicker is applied. The card's value is now added to the ships' value.

Again, there's not much official about this, but I doubt there's too much to disagree on.
 
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Chris Withem

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Re: Toomai's Timing Table (vI.2)
Toomai Glittershine wrote:
Yes, Wild Tripler and Tripler can (almost) undo each other, since the flare says it goes absolutely first (so a 20 would become 6 and then tripled to 18).

Now, as for the calculation order, I've worked most of it out, and things have changed a bit. Essentially:

* The Morph card, as well as the card-changing Wild Human, Wild Mirror, and Wild Pacifist, act first.
* Wild Tripler then acts - it can't act before the previous since they may not be numbers initially.
* Wild Calculator and Wild Gambler then go, since they're based on a guess as to the face value of the two cards.
* Tripler goes, since his power is automatic.
* Then there's Calculator and Mirror - and, unfortunately, I can't find a reason for one of them to take precedence over the other. Even worse, the order of application can make a massive difference.
* Finally, the Kicker is applied. The card's value is now added to the ships' value.

Again, there's not much official about this, but I doubt there's too much to disagree on.


Why wouldn't I be able to wait and hold on to my mirror wild flare to change it to cards that are modified? Can I wait until Chosen replaces his card, or until Tripler triples? I'm not going to go through the list of aliens I could possibly do this to, but is there some reason I can't wait for alien powers to go off before i use the flare?

Tripler Wild Flare wrote:
As a main player, after encounter cards are revealed, you may change your encounter card into a duplicate of your opponent’s encounter card.


The only stipulation to this card is I have to wait until cards are revealed.
 
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Roger
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Re: Toomai's Timing Table (vI.2)
Keep in mind, this is Toomai's attempt at putting an order on an inherently chaotic game, and as such, this becomes more of a suggested order set than anything official. As Captain Barbossa would say, they're "more what you'd call 'guidelines' than actual rules."

As Mirror Wild stipulates that it activates "after encounter cards are revealed", I believe Toomai has taken this to mean "immediately after encounter cards are revealed and before any other actions have taken place".

If this restriction isn't something you wish to deal with, and you prefer the action-reaction you described above, because, yes, technically playing Mirror after Chosen's power has taken place is still after encounter cards have been revealed, feel free to do so.
 
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Toomai Glittershine
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Re: Toomai's Timing Table (vI.2)
My reasoning for Wild Mirror's precendence is because it has pretty much the exact same effect as a Morph card, and as such I put it in the same place (duplicating the card without modifications). That said, I recognize the other side of the argument (that is, having a "stack" of modifiers, instead of the table's current method of "recalculating" after each effect).
 
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Chris Withem

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Re: Toomai's Timing Table (vI.2)
A few questions/clarifications/opinions...

On the section about Remora's Cling...
Do you mean it to say whenever "cards are drawn?" rather then a single card? or do you let remora draw 1 card per card drawn? (so that it works in the same way as Remora clinging ships)

This is just mostly me wanting an opinion of yours....

In the resolution step, what is your preferred "order of operations" specifically regarding negotiates? I've been in a rut recently trying to figure out if our table has been doing it right/wrong. I suppose the real question is should flares like warrior, mutant, machine happen before or after compensation? I would side with after compensation. I just feel that is more correct.

Also figure this one out for me. Magician Wild-flare vs Magician. Can the wild flare be played against magician. If so i think its a timing issue of course, if not, does that mean it comes down to a timing issue on whether or not you can play it vs. Magician?

 
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Toomai Glittershine
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Re: Toomai's Timing Table (vI.2)
NoobSauce wrote:
On the section about Remora's Cling...
Do you mean it to say whenever "cards are drawn?" rather then a single card? or do you let remora draw 1 card per card drawn? (so that it works in the same way as Remora clinging ships)
I put Remora in the "whenever a card is drawn" segment because that's when the power activates. If there's a condition that isn't met for the power to work, it doesn't (such as already having drawn a card because that player drew multiple cards). Same with taking ships - you've already taken a ship, so even though the other player is taking another, you can't. (This limit is part of the power and I didn't feel it was worth spelling it out.)
NoobSauce wrote:
In the resolution step, what is your preferred "order of operations" specifically regarding negotiates? I've been in a rut recently trying to figure out if our table has been doing it right/wrong. I suppose the real question is should flares like warrior, mutant, machine happen before or after compensation? I would side with after compensation. I just feel that is more correct.
I agree with such cards happening after compensation. Compensation is a sort of "immediate" effect (based on losing ships), whereas the flares in question are delayed (after an encounter is over, etc).
NoobSauce wrote:
Also figure this one out for me. Magician Wild-flare vs Magician. Can the wild flare be played against magician. If so i think its a timing issue of course, if not, does that mean it comes down to a timing issue on whether or not you can play it vs. Magician?
The flare has no restriction on it (such as Human's does), so the game doesn't care if you play it against Magician. In such a case, I would make the flare act after Magician's power - it's wild flare, the power itself should have precedence. (Not to mention that Magician's power is mandatory, and therefore technically activates before the other player has a chance to play anything.)
 
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Chris Withem

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Re: Toomai's Timing Table (vI.2)
Toomai Glittershine wrote:
I put Remora in the "whenever a card is drawn" segment because that's when the power activates. If there's a condition that isn't met for the power to work, it doesn't (such as already having drawn a card because that player drew multiple cards). Same with taking ships - you've already taken a ship, so even though the other player is taking another, you can't. (This limit is part of the power and I didn't feel it was worth spelling it out.)


I was making a suggestion to fix the wording on your table. I too know Remora can only draw 1 card when somebody draws a new hand, but in my opinion the way it is on your table makes it sound like he draws 1 per card drawn

see the section..

Whenever a Card is drawn
Card leaves deck
Card enters player's hand
Remora clings

Toomai Glittershine wrote:
The flare has no restriction on it (such as Human's does), so the game doesn't care if you play it against Magician. In such a case, I would make the flare act after Magician's power - it's wild flare, the power itself should have precedence. (Not to mention that Magician's power is mandatory, and therefore technically activates before the other player has a chance to play anything.)


The problem with these 2 abilities is they both say "before encounter cards are selected" which taken literally is only one of the powers can go off before it stops the other power from going off.
 
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Toomai Glittershine
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After finally being able to find the expansion here in Canada, version I.3 is up! (First post.) It's got all the Incursion stuff in it, plus a separate not-very-spiffy-but-functional subroutine chart.
 
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Chris Withem

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Just noticed...

Why do you have "Warrior gains xp" in regroup phase?
 
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Toomai Glittershine
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NoobSauce wrote:
Just noticed...

Why do you have "Warrior gains xp" in regroup phase?
Because that's where the errata from the FAQ puts it. That way, Warrior gains experience even if he got zapped.
 
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