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BoardGameGeek» Forums » Board Game Design » Board Game Design

Subject: The Manhattan Project rss

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Brandon Tibbetts
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I hope this is appropriate - please pardon me if it is not. I'm here to solicit questions, comments and criticism in a prototype that I am developing:

The Manhattan Project

To be very brief, it's a medium-heavy worker placement game with a novel theme: a race to develop WWII-era atomic weapons. I've tied many game mechanics into information I've gleaned from accounts of the actual Manhattan Project.

I'm using variable worker types and a conventional (non-variable) turn order, which is an unconventional choice for worker placement games.

At the time of this writing, I'm in the middle of the self-testing stage. This means I'm rapidly approaching a point where without some feedback and assistance from others, progress will come to a halt.

I intend to produce a physical prototype and introduce it a group at some point, but for now it exists as a purely digital Zun Tzu gamebox. It would be awesome to test it first online that way - so consider this a sign-up list as well.
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  • Last edited Tue Feb 9, 2010 6:09 pm (Total Number of Edits: 1)
  • Posted Tue Feb 9, 2010 5:59 pm
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Kristian Madsen
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Great choice of theme. I don't think I'd have any problem putting together a group to playtest it over here. Haven't been using Zun Tzu before, but that shouldn't be a problem.

Oh, and I was involved in playtesting Asia Engulfed, if that is of any merit.

Best regards from Sweden,
Kristian G. Madsen

 
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It's just a ride
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I'd be very interested in this, both as a game and a playtester.

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Joe Mucchiello
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schmanthony wrote:
To be very brief, it's a medium-heavy worker placement game with a novel theme: a race to develop WWII-era atomic weapons.

I have to say I love the scientists. If this is ever published by a big name publisher I hope they carve up some scientist meeples for it.

My favorite Manhattan Project anecdote was that the Uranium purification was done at a location separate from the the rocket staging. So as the Uranium was purified it was shipped to the other location where there were no atomic scientists. The grunts who received the shipments stacked cubes of uranium in a nice neat square. When one of the scientists (Oppenheimer, perhaps) saw the stack he nearly had a heart attack as the stack was close to critical mass. Oops. Is this in the game?
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Mike Hoyt
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That's a good anecdote Joe, but maybe you have a reference? I don't think there was enough uranium available to achieve critical mass just by stacking it. Not to say the game shouldn't have potential disasters built in for spice. Remember, even the scientists weren't sure they wouldn’t set the atmosphere on fire with the Trinity test.

I think this would be an interesting theme. A lot goes into making the first bomb, not just the scientists at Los Alamos, but the uranium mining and refining, the research into explosives to compress the uranium, the precision metal working to actually build it, even the taking into account the dimensions of the B-29's bomb-bay. Where you allocate your labor, and the variety of specialized skills required would be interesting.

Are you going to include espionage? Have a trade-off between a highly secure, but remote, site like Los Alamos vs. running the project in a major metropolitan area with far more resources, but much less security?

(edit for atrocious spelling... good grief!)
 
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  • Last edited Tue Feb 9, 2010 7:33 pm (Total Number of Edits: 1)
  • Posted Tue Feb 9, 2010 7:31 pm
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Joe Mucchiello
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blockhead wrote:
That's a good anecdote Joe, but maybe you have a reference? I don't think there was enough uranium available to achieve critical mass just by stacking it.

It's an anecdote. I'm sure it's fake But it makes a good story. (And it's even funnier if work the word apoplexy into the story.)
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Cary Tyler
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jmucchiello wrote:
schmanthony wrote:
To be very brief, it's a medium-heavy worker placement game with a novel theme: a race to develop WWII-era atomic weapons.

I have to say I love the scientists. If this is ever published by a big name publisher I hope they carve up some scientist meeples for it.

My favorite Manhattan Project anecdote was that the Uranium purification was done at a location separate from the the rocket staging. So as the Uranium was purified it was shipped to the other location where there were no atomic scientists. The grunts who received the shipments stacked cubes of uranium in a nice neat square. When one of the scientists (Oppenheimer, perhaps) saw the stack he nearly had a heart attack as the stack was close to critical mass. Oops. Is this in the game?


Are you referring to the Demon Core?

There were no rockets directly involved in 1945 with the Manhattan Project AFAIK.
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Joe Mucchiello
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WvonBraun wrote:
Are you referring to the Demon Core?

There were no rockets directly involved in 1945 with the Manhattan Project AFAIK.

I don't know. It was just something I heard. It sounds like someone may have conflated various near disasters into a funny story.
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Brandon Tibbetts
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blockhead wrote:
... Not to say the game shouldn't have potential disasters built in for spice. Remember, even the scientists weren't sure they wouldn’t set the atmosphere on fire with the Trinity test.


I didn't think about disasters for the game. I'm not sure how that would fit considering it is intended to be a mostly open information and low luck affair. I suppose you could say I've abstracted disasters in a sense... as testing bombs (particularly being the first to test) adds to your victory points at the end. Tests would reduce the likelihood of disaster, increasing the effectiveness of your program.

I understand that the possibility of the atmosphere being burned up in a chain reaction was discussed amongst the MHP scientists, but that it was a minority opinion seriously considered by only a few.

blockhead wrote:
I think this would be an interesting theme.


Thanks!

blockhead wrote:
A lot goes into making the first bomb, not just the scientists at Los Alamos,


Scientists: check. Special worker type.

blockhead wrote:
but the uranium mining and refining,


Check. Mining is extremely important in the game. As is refining (enrichment). As is production of plutonium via reactors.

blockhead wrote:
the research into explosives to compress the uranium,


Check, though abstracted. This is in the "design bomb" action.

blockhead wrote:
the precision metal working to actually build it,


Check, though abstracted. In the game, higher yield and more advanced bombs require more scientists and engineers to build. In particular, the implosion designs require more personnel.



blockhead wrote:
even the taking into account the dimensions of the B-29's bomb-bay.


Somewhat out of scope... I wanted to end the game at the point when nations are capable of deploying bombs. However, deployment capability is taken into account. Bonus points are awarded at the end for deployment capability - mostly the size of your bomber fleet.

blockhead wrote:
Where you allocate your labor,


All in the worker placement.

blockhead wrote:
and the variety of specialized skills required would be interesting.


There are common laborers, scientists, engineers and contractors in the game.

blockhead wrote:
Are you going to include espionage?


Yes, there is an espionage action. It's highly abstracted, though. It allows you to place your workers on an opponent's building, simultaneously representing stolen technology (you get to use something you did not build) and sabotage (they cannot place their own workers on it).

blockhead wrote:
Have a trade-off between a highly secure, but remote, site like Los Alamos vs. running the project in a major metropolitan area with far more resources, but much less security?


That would have been cool, but I'm afraid that much of a geographical element would drive the complexity and play time higher than I would like. In fact, in the beginning I experimented with hex, square based and "Power-Grid-like" maps on individual player boards. Then I moved away from player boards. Then I moved away from geography.
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  • Last edited Tue Feb 9, 2010 9:08 pm (Total Number of Edits: 3)
  • Posted Tue Feb 9, 2010 8:39 pm
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Brandon Tibbetts
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Thanks for your interest Kristian!

A couple of things about Zun Tzu. It's Windows only, and seems to have some problems on Vista. It's solid on XP and reports are positive about Windows 7.

It requires a half-way decent graphics card - DirectX 7 or higher.

Also everyone would need a headset for the voice communication.

http://www.zuntzu.com

Finally, since I'm tragically mono-lingual, everyone would have to speak English or someone would have to be a good translator.

kgm3219 wrote:
Great choice of theme. I don't think I'd have any problem putting together a group to playtest it over here. Haven't been using Zun Tzu before, but that shouldn't be a problem.

Oh, and I was involved in playtesting Asia Engulfed, if that is of any merit.

Best regards from Sweden,
Kristian G. Madsen
 
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  • Last edited Tue Feb 9, 2010 9:38 pm (Total Number of Edits: 1)
  • Posted Tue Feb 9, 2010 9:34 pm
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Brandon Tibbetts
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Shauneroo wrote:
I'd be very interested in this, both as a game and a playtester.


Alright then, you're on "The List."

I see that you are a WWII buff and possibly a wargamer. Which is great... but I just thought I'd clarify that the game is not at all a wargame, and doesn't cover anything in the way of WWII history outside of the very tangential story of The Manhattan Project. Still, I completely expect that if the game ever receives a proper artistic treatment that it would have a WWII-era look and feel. It would only make sense.
 
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Joe Mucchiello
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Edison
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I'm interested but have no idea when I would be available to playtest live online so think of me when you are ready for blind testing. I can easily print stuff and I have a lot of spare bits and meeples I can use for prototypes.
 
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Cary Tyler
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Just an FYI
The Societ Union had spies in the Manhattan Project. If they were not there the Soviets would have taken several more years to develop their own bomb. The US helped the UK and France with technology, materials, fabrication and theory to assist them in making their bomb (more for the UK than France) to offset the Soviet bomb in 1949. The Soviets helped the Chinese alot before the Chinese-Soviet Union rift and they helped India some also. Israel recieved asistance from the US, unofficially, of course and Pakistan was helped by the Chinese. If the Germans had not fled the Nazis before WW2 then the US probably wouldn't have been able to make the bomb. The point is that the race to make the bomb really wasn't true.
 
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Steven Metzger
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It's a good bit of information, but...
WvonBraun wrote:
If they were not there the Soviets would have taken several more years to develop their own bomb.
The fact of the matter is that the U.S. was simply the first to get there...there were three moderately concurrent, independent developments of atomic weaponry by the Germans, Americans, and Soviets, and most people know this. We ARE talking about an alternate history game here, not a war sim.

Anyways, it's kinda like Apple keeping their products under-wraps - the biggest reason the iPod is so popular is because it was the first and most innovative, not because it can particularly compete in a crowded market. If they were to say "we're making a tablet PC omg" long before they actually do it, then they'd release it into a market already flooded with poor recreations of the concept. They might be the best, but their sales would decrease because of the market over-saturation.
 
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Brandon Tibbetts
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WvonBraun wrote:
...The point is that the race to make the bomb really wasn't true.


At the time, there was indeed a desperate race. America had little knowledge of where other countries were with their bombs - particularly the Nazis and Soviets, and it was a great fear of our Government that we'd be beaten to it. Even the Japanese had a bomb program.

It was only until long after the war that we discovered how far behind everyone else had been.

But the game is alternate history in the sense that all players begin on equal footing and progress at comparable rates. (It wouldn't be much of a game otherwise!)
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  • Last edited Wed Feb 10, 2010 1:14 am (Total Number of Edits: 5)
  • Posted Wed Feb 10, 2010 1:07 am
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Mike Hoyt
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Well it sounds like you've got most of the concepts in the game that I would expect. And a great theme. Be curious to see how it comes out. Good luck!
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schmanthony wrote:
Shauneroo wrote:
I'd be very interested in this, both as a game and a playtester.


Alright then, you're on "The List."

I see that you are a WWII buff and possibly a wargamer. Which is great... but I just thought I'd clarify that the game is not at all a wargame, and doesn't cover anything in the way of WWII history outside of the very tangential story of The Manhattan Project. Still, I completely expect that if the game ever receives a proper artistic treatment that it would have a WWII-era look and feel. It would only make sense.


Yes, I'm interested in WWII history, but also the history of the Cold War and nuclear weapons.

I play Euros too, Caylus is great!
 
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Cary Tyler
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Quote:
......I'm here to solicit questions, comments and criticism in a prototype......
To be very brief, it's a medium-heavy worker placement game with a novel theme: a race to develop WWII-era atomic weapons. I've tied many game mechanics into information I've gleaned from accounts of the actual Manhattan Project.


If it had said ".....a race set in an alternate WW2 timeline to develop WWII-era atomic weapons." it would have been clear from the beginning that the game was not meant to be a historical simulation.
 
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  • Last edited Wed Feb 10, 2010 7:47 pm (Total Number of Edits: 1)
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Joe Mucchiello
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I read the exact same text and assumed he was talking about research. Had he wanted to convey that it was a historical sim, I would expect him to say so explicitly. Perhaps this is an example of the desires of the reader coloring what is heard (not said) between the lines? I find such differences interesting.
 
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  • Last edited Wed Feb 10, 2010 7:51 pm (Total Number of Edits: 1)
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Brandon Tibbetts
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I've taken a 3-player self-test to about midgame, with good results. I posted an image and wrote a detailed comment about the game state:

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  • Last edited Thu Feb 11, 2010 3:26 pm (Total Number of Edits: 1)
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Dann May
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Great and interesting theme.

So the players represent different nations?

Here's my little slice of creative advice.

I know most of these kind of games have victory points, but is there any chance of the winning condition just being dropping the bomb (or being able to), surely thats the only real measure, its not how you get there, but the final action of getting there that matters with a theme like this isnt it?

I think it would be cool and very original (good opporuntity) to have a worker placement gane like this where you were focused totally on the goal and how to reach it (like they really were in the Manhattan project) not on accruing of pats on the back that dont count if you dont win the real literal race. (You can tell I'm not a fan of victory point tracks in most games, they seem very arbitrary and clunky way of scoring a game, especially when like in this case there is a clear satisfying victory action you could reach)

Great idea, hope it gets made.
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Brandon Tibbetts
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Jumpseat wrote:
Great and interesting theme. So the players represent different nations?


Yes, in the same way as Glenn Drover's Empires: The Age of Discovery, that is to say, not particular real-life nations. (Perhaps I will put that into an expansion, as Glenn Drover seems to have done: Glenn Drover's Empires: The Age of Discovery - Builder Expansion.)

Jumpseat wrote:
... is there any chance of the winning condition just being dropping the bomb (or being able to), surely thats the only real measure, its not how you get there, but the final action of getting there that matters with a theme like this isnt it?


Exactly! I'm calling the end of the game when one nation has achieved the capability of waging nuclear war. In the game system, this is determined by a certain number of bombs, either 2 or 3 (it's not certain yet). Remember in the Manhattan Project 3 bombs were built and 1 detonated on a test platform before America felt ready to use them. Indeed, in WWII, the Japanese regime did not surrender after Hiroshima. At least one factor may have been that they doubted America had another bomb at the ready.

To allow for a close race, which I want to be possible in the interest of gameplay, other players get a final chance to assemble bombs after one player has triggered the end condition. In the case of multiple players then satisfying the victory condition, the winner is determined by maximum capability (bomb yield, tests conducted, size of air force). You could call this a tiebreaker, but its definitely one that you'd have in mind the whole time and that you'd plan around - not one that pops up nonsensically at the end to play kingmaker.

Jumpseat wrote:
You can tell I'm not a fan of victory point tracks in most games, they seem very arbitrary and clunky way of scoring a game, especially when like in this case there is a clear satisfying victory action you could reach


I'm using victory points, but not a track. There are only a small number of things that grant you points at the end. As I've mentioned before, they are total yield, points from testing, and air force size. At this stage though, the end/win conditions are absolutely subject to change.

Jumpseat wrote:
Great idea, hope it gets made.


Thanks to you and everyone else so far for the encouragement!
 
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  • Last edited Thu Feb 11, 2010 5:29 pm (Total Number of Edits: 7)
  • Posted Thu Feb 11, 2010 3:07 pm
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I would like to play test this game - I am a nuclear engineer and would be very happy to help with the accuracy/realism of the game - for selfish motives of course whistle - right now the only game themed in this way is Nuclear War, which is fun but can't really be called a "good game" - what you are designing sounds like the type of game mechanics that I would enjoy too

I do hope that the game is historically accurate

Good luck and I look forward to seeing it!
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Brandon Tibbetts
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NuclearMicky wrote:
I would like to play test this game


Excellent! Please take a look at http://www.zuntzu.com if you are not familiar with it already.

NuclearMicky wrote:
I do hope that the game is historically accurate


As others have accurately pointed out, it is not a historical simulation. If it's a simulation of anything, it would be the rapid development and operation of an atomic bomb program.

I'm confident that the mechanics I've developed for building bombs in the game have their roots in reality. It's easy for me to know this because the game doesn't examine the minutiae of the process in great depth - only the basic concepts that anyone would understand from watching a good documentary or 2 on the subject.

Another possible game design might be specifically overcoming the exact challenges of pu-239 fission via carefully engineered implosion, but my design instead looks at the "big picture" of the entire effort and abstracts the details like that.

NuclearMicky wrote:
Good luck and I look forward to seeing it!


Thanks! This forum really is a sign-up list. When I'm ready, I intend to scrape through it and send playtesting announcements to all users who have claimed interest.

 
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  • Last edited Thu Feb 11, 2010 5:56 pm (Total Number of Edits: 1)
  • Posted Thu Feb 11, 2010 5:20 pm
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jefF, There are some who call me... DuneKitteh
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The game looks and sounds interesting - definitely in my area of interest. Consider this a playtest offer as well. thumbsup
 
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