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I usually don't refrain from posting my biased opinions anywhere on the interwebs, but I always felt that BGG demanded a high standard of posting, which is exactly why I didn't post much. Yet.
Ok, over to the "review", basically my personal opinion on the game. I'll start by saying I loved Dungeon Keeper, I love the theme and I'm a natural when it comes to being evil. I played Dungeon Lords about ten times now and altho its replayability is not very high in my book, it still makes a fun game.
The Hardware
First thing that happens when you open the box for the first time is that you see a lot of goodies, but the instant feeling I get is not a pleasant one. It seems like they threw a bunch of stuff, they had left over from other games, together. Plastic imps, wooden food and gold, cardboard monsters,rooms and tunnels, cards, bright red see-through cubes which represent lost life points, it's a bit of everything and it doesn't feel like it's part of "one game". The other thing I kinda hate is the folded game boards, while it saves room in my gaming cabinet because the box is smaller, it also makes that my gameboard is never flat-flat. I always have a "valley" since the board is folded like that most of the time (inside the box). I could start folding it the other way, but then I'll tear the coating and my boards become worn and I don't like that cuz it makes me seem poor. Besides this whine, the boards have beautiful art in the style of Galaxy Trucker (duh?).
The Rules
Allright, all set for our first game! The rules are well-written, clear and not all too long. All this with some humor. Czech Games wanted to make a guide to make it easier to explain to your friends, but I don't feel it that way. It's still too much information to absorb at once, no matter how you bring it. It's faster to just play a game than to work out all the beginner scenarios. Just play it and understand it.
The Play
Dungeon Lords consists of two years of dungeon planning and after each year there is a combat phase which consists of 4 fight rounds. In each year, you can buy new monsters, new rooms, gain extra food and gold, build tunnels and so on. The execution of these things all work with a system of order and worker placement. I won't go into much detail, but I'll say that, in general (except for monsters and rooms), placing workers early gives you moderate benefits and a cheap price, while placing them later on gives you big benefits and an expensive price. After this year, you go into combat with your assigned adventurers, which is basically your monsters + traps vs the adventurers, and it requires a bit of planning since the order of things can determine the success or failure of combat. Then the second year begins and you do the entire thing again, the only difference with year one is that the monsters and adventurers get more powerful and the rooms shift from production to combat.
Besides the worker placement, there really is no player to player interaction except for the Evilometer. Sometimes you have to pay "evil points" aka move up one or more places on the meter. When you are highest on this meter you will attract the most powerful adventurers and if you're really evil, you will attract the mighty paladin. Which basically is a pimped out adventurer that can heal, cast magic, prevent traps and has more hit points than you're average dungeon looting adventurer.
The Judge
This is the game, and I would rate it a 7.5 on my personal scale.
+ Pros
+ Great theme
+ Awesome touch with the Evilometer
+ Fun and not too long
- Cons
- Not much player to player interaction
- The folded game boards
- (during 2- & 3-player, you have to "play' the dummy boards to reach 4 players, minor burden)
This is my first review, please give me some constructive criticism for future reference  Thanks!
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Tim Kelly
United States
Richardson
Texas
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Great review. Thanks! I have noticed player interaction increases with experience. As one becomes more familiar with the action choices, it's possible to place minions to both help oneself AND hurt someone else.
TK
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Eric Phillips
United States
Fort Wayne
Indiana
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Quote: Besides the worker placement, there really is no player to player interaction except for the Evilometer.
That's kind of like saying, "Besides the 6 three-pointers, he didn't score at all except for the 8 free throws."
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Vincenzo
Germany
Stuttgart
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Quote: Besides the worker placement, there really is no player to player interaction except for the Evilometer.
The only player interaction is the worker placement... worker placement and Evilometer...
The two interactions are worker placement and Evilometer... and the competition of the different titles...
Among the player interactions...
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Well people, I'm sure the game has its fans and its haters. I am neither.
I was just writing down what I felt after ten plays with various types of players. In my opinion it's more like "make your own dungeon and fight your own adventurers, in the end see who did the best job and that player wins". They could have made this game solo , paste a mandatory score on it and voila!
I agree with Tim Kelly that the player-player interaction comes with experience, but even then it is limited in my opinion. I could play the game without ever looking at someone else's board and with a bit of luck, I might even win. Maybe they did it to be able to put experienced and non-experienced players together (cuz a "stupid" move in an experienced-player game, might sabotage the experienced players very well thought through actions), but it doesn't strike me as if you're sabotaging your opponents to be able to win.
PS: The expansion adds even more randomness to the game.
Anyway, these are my personal opinions.
Also:
Quote: That's kind of like saying, "Besides the 6 three-pointers, he didn't score at all except for the 8 free throws."
English is not my native language but I see what you mean, my sentence construction could have been better. I'll leave it like this for now.
Thanks for the replies!
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Jesse Hickle
United States
Griffith
Indiana
This space for rent.
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Becienz wrote: Quote: Besides the worker placement, there really is no player to player interaction except for the Evilometer. The only player interaction is the worker placement... worker placement and Evilometer... The two interactions are worker placement and Evilometer... and the competition of the different titles... Among the player interactions...
No one expects the Dungeon Inquisition?
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Loc Nguyen
United States
groton
Connecticut
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The Simple Item Variant adds direct player interaction if that is what you are looking for.
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Was George Orwell an Optimist?
Spain
Corvallis
Oregon
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Reucht wrote: English is not my native language but I see what you mean, my sentence construction could have been better.
You're too humble, Marc. Few native speakers write as well as you.
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Guy Srinivasan
United States
Seattle
Washington
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Reucht wrote: I could play the game without ever looking at someone else's board and with a bit of luck, I might even win.
Do you mean you would track what they had in your head, or what? 'cause if you totally disregard the other players you will lose so hard... unless I guess if they're terrible at the game, maybe.
"How did I lose every single title by 1??"
"How do my minions keep coming home empty-handed??"
"Huh, I guess it was just bad luck that I got both a thief and a cleric in both years."
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David Cunkelman
United States
Antelope
California
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Reucht wrote: + Pros + Great theme + Awesome touch with the Evilometer + Fun and not too long - Cons - Not much player to player interaction - The folded game boards - (during 2- & 3-player, you have to "play' the dummy boards to reach 4 players, minor burden) This is my first review, please give me some constructive criticism for future reference Thanks!
You mentioned "after 10 plays" in another post and a "+PRO" point of "not too long." How long are your games taking?
I've played three times now, and there was at least one beginner each time. It's taken 2 1/2 - 3 hours to explain and play, and that is skipping the "training" boards. I'm really hoping this game flows at max 90 mins with four experienced players.
Let me know how your games are going.
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We play with 3-4 players most of the time and all have played 5+ games atleast, we have a pretty steady gaming group of about 6 people. We're not all equally "sharp" when it comes to making tactical decisions, sometimes there is alcohol involved. This adds to the unexpected chaos of Dungeon Lords, which is fun.
Our last 3 games lasted about 75mins I think (I could be wrong, I'll check next time to be sure), there isnt that much to do to be honest. Replace the markers, few order rounds, some unexpected events and handing out adventurers. Then it's combat, which basically comes down to "if it takes too long for you, you're prolly gonna lose" (in general that is, sometimes it's tactical to wait), and then it's the same thing over again.
If everyone knows what to do, I think you can do a game in 90mins with four experienced players for sure.
PS: This post is mentioning "game time", setting up and scoring are not included.
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John Richert
United States
Cordova
Tennessee
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The game moves quickly if you don't have AP.
I am another who disagrees with the low player interaction comment. We have completely hosed a player from taking monsters two turns in a row. I have been shut out of all my orders by clever minion placement by other players.
Sure, you can play the game ignoring all the other players, but that is an easy ticket to last place.
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Alex Rockwell
United States
Bothell
Washington
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Reucht wrote:
- Cons
- Not much player to player interaction
I completely disagree with this one point, way more than any other time anyone claims a particular game has no player interaction.
It is critically important to try and figure out what your opponents will do, and when, and outguess them.
Dungeon Lords is 80% a game of outguessing your opponents on the order placementm it is a psychology game, a game of outpredicting each other. Its 20% a combat puzzle game, but really the order selection is the heart of the game, and this is a heavy player interaction element.
If you just pick actions blindly without trying to pay attention to the other players, you are just going to get screwed frequently and not get very good spaces.
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Alex Rockwell
United States
Bothell
Washington
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Reucht wrote: I could play the game without ever looking at someone else's board and with a bit of luck, I might even win.
You would not ever, EVER beat me at this game if you could not see any opponents board or orders, and I can see them all.
Seriously, a player not being able to see their opponents orders would be at a very severe handicap.
"Besides the worker placement, there really is no player to player interaction except for the Evilometer."
Yeah, and also, aside from talking to each other, and supporting each other with your units, there really is no player interaction in Diplomacy.
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Uwe A. Redjac
China
Beijing
Beijing
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Alexfrog wrote: If you just pick actions blindly without trying to pay attention to the other players, you are just going to get screwed frequently and not get very good spaces. Except of course if everyone else also just picks blindly ... then it would be the game of luck the OP refers to. Could be the case if a game group is not much used to the more indirect interaction of Euros. Diplomacy is a very good example where the interaction is much more direct, in the open and encouraged.
Got to agree to it though: Messing up other players by estimating what gets picked when is a major part of Dungeon Lords. The whole "two cards openly not available", "first action recycles, rest unavailable next season", "manipulate adventurers via Evilometer" and "cycle of monsters, rooms and events" is about the right mix of outguessing opponents and planning efficiency for me.
Added plus: It's all about killing do-gooders instead of being a peasant mucking around his farm.
Death to the Paladin!
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Sarah Allen
United Kingdom
Colchester
Essex
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I've only played two player but with two of us it can get vicious! My other half and I have given each other That Look several times already with just four plays when we've used our dummy player order choice to completely screw the other person out of the spot on the board they wanted.
'Working' the board; getting your minions in the spots you want during the order phase is key and key to *that* is second guessing the other player.
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ronaldinho @boardspace.net
Taiwan
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Dungeon Lords is one of the more interactive worker placement games. If you are not looking at other players' boards you are missing out on the core of the game--namely predicting and outguessing your opponents.
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Zubbus O'Really
United Kingdom
London
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Reucht wrote: English is not my native language but I see what you mean, my sentence construction could have been better. I'll leave it like this for now.
Well when you write a review in English, we will read the English, because umm, we have to. We can't read the German in your head and I won't understand any German you write.
But those weren't major critism of your review or your English. It is a very curious area of this game. Superficially, the player interaction is very small, and yet, they are the key of the game - If you had things all your way then this is no different from a crossword puzzle. The interaction in this game can (and will) make or break each other's plans.
On the other hand, while I churn over the amount player interaction this game has, may I point out that the type of player interaction in this game is what makes it such a pleasant game: players cannot engage in an aggressive, attritive struggle with each other. You may get bumped one turn, but like it or not, you got your next turn and your dungeon to get on with.
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Linda Baldwin
United States
White Plains
New York
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Taught this game to some people this weekend at a con; they wanted a second game, which we played. We were discussing the interaction, and I said something to the effect of it becoming rather poker-like trying to maneuver for the adventurers we wanted (once one knew the game a bit better.)
The response: "Yeah, but when you bluff in poker, you don't DIE!" (Both our games had been pretty brutal.) I love that line. Yes, you CAN play this game without paying attention to the other players -- but expect to be destroyed by a competent player.
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Quote: Well when you write a review in English, we will read the English, because umm, we have to. We can't read the German in your head and I won't understand any German you write.
A general misconception I guess, but I'm from Belgium, not Germany. Our flags just use the same colors, altho our stripes are vertical while german flags are horizontal. Et voila, I just taught you another thing. A bit shameful for someone living in the UK, not knowing the flags of his neighboring countries
It seems the general idea of the game is outguessing and outbluffing your opponent. I think that aspect plays a smaller part than the "build your own dungeon".
Also people are getting kinda hung up on the example I gave; "with a bit of luck I can win without ever looking at someone else his gameboard". It's a dramatization, I would never play like that, but I'm saying it's possible.
Without wanting to start a riot, I think you're a bit arrogant when it comes to your own boardgaming skills. If in a game of Dungeon Lords, you need food, you might check where the other players food card is and how much they have/need. But in essence, you're just getting food, because your monsters would otherwise bail on you. That is exactly what I'm trying to say. You're placing orders based on YOUR dungeon and YOUR needs and while the other players moves/status might have an influence, YOUR dungeon and YOUR needs are a bigger priority. As Tim Kelly says, you can combine the two (helping yourself and bullying someone else) with experience, but I think it's limited since in the end, if you had to choose, YOUR dungeon and YOUR needs come first.
Once again, if ten people say "A", I'm not automatically saying "A" too. This is all based on my plays of the game, maybe I should play with all you Mensa folk 
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Zubbus O'Really
United Kingdom
London
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I was trying to tell you we're not critizing you personally and you come back like this. No wonder some people are so flipping hated across the world.
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BT Carpenter
United States
Reston
Virginia
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Reucht wrote: It's faster to just play a game than to work out all the beginner scenarios. Just play it and understand it.
I entirely disagree.
The time spent running everyone who has not played through the training dungeons is critical to understanding two things:
1) if the players will enjoy the experience.
2) learning how to defeat those pesky adventurers.
The training dungeons, run in order, teach different elements in a progressive manner. Players learn about:
Melee attacks
Optional attacks {I always rerun the first board saying "okay, now you have no food, do it again".}
Fatigue
Distance attacks
Healing
Repeatable attacks {Vampire}
Trap damage prevention
Trap ordering
You need all of these skills in order to understand the first invasion, an event that happens well into the first game.
If they can't hack the training dungeons, they won't enjoy this game.
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Linda Baldwin
United States
White Plains
New York
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Taught this again recently, and made one fatal error -- I mentioned that there was an optimal solution to the training dungeons. Totally frustrated one of the players, and probably put him off for good.
This is not a simple game; there's an awful lot going on. I'm perfectly happy using the training dungeons, then the beginner game, then the full game, even with sophisticated gamers. An error in this game can be brutal. One mistake can cost you not only the game, but leave you so crippled it takes all the fun out of your game. (Been there myself.)
This is, IMO, a terrific game, but the players deserve a chance to ramp up.
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Gerry Smit
Canada
Toronto
Ontario
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And that same training cycle has put my group of gamers off. Sigh. It IS a great game, and a hell of a lot of fun!
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Linda Baldwin
United States
White Plains
New York
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Shame about your group. I love this game myself, but it's not an easy game to teach. I'm getting better, though; the last people I taught it to found it very intuitive once we started. Nasty, but intuitive.
One seems to be put off, though, by how hard it is on the aspiring Dungeon Lords. Also, Mr. Nice Guy won our first game together, so he's convinced it's really biased toward a Good Guy strategy. (We pointed out that, had I not underestimated my need for food and missed getting a Golem on the last turn, it's likely I would have won instead, and I was Ms. Evil for the whole game. He's willing to give it another shot, at least.)
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