dale yu
United States
Cincinnati
Ohio
If you're not part of the soultion...
You're part of the precipitate!
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jatill wrote: Hi folks- There is a fan-created Dominion PC game available that has AI opponents and all non-promo cards in the game. This game may have to go away once Rio Grande Games releases their own version, but until then, enjoy! http://www.slightlymagic.net/forum/viewforum.php?f=61(choose the Dominion topic)
Have you asked Rio Grande Games for permission?
To the best of my knowledge, no permissions have been granted for computer versions of Dominion.
Thanks
Dale
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Jeff Till
Amherst
New York
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Edit: No, I have no permission whatsoever
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jatill wrote: I have informal permission from the game's creator, but never heard back from RGG.
You do not have informal permission, not at all, and you needed to hear back from RGG. Man guys. I have other stuff to do.
In my reply to you, where I tried to be polite, said I wouldn't be officially endorsing anything, but said that probably no-one would complain if you didn't sell it or use our art, I pointed out, specifically, that we wouldn't be letting you use our art. There you are using it! And you don't get to! It's copyrighted and everything. You would need permission from RGG, which you won't get. You don't get to use it while you wait for permission. What nonsense is that.
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Myke Madsen
United States
Salt Lake City
Utah
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oops
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Luîs
United States
Mesa
Arizona
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HappyProle wrote: oops
That's what happens when you write software that only runs on windows.
Not to mention failure to get proper permission for releasing it
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Jeff Till
Amherst
New York
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Okay, clearly there was a misunderstanding. I thought you basically said 'go ahead and do it, but I'm not sure if RGG will be ok with you using the art'. So I went forward, art included, prepared to remove it requested. I'll remove the art immediately. Sorry!
Edit: the download link now includes images with the art blacked out. I hope that is acceptable.
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Tim Seitz
United States
Glen Allen
VA
Like water spilled on the ground, which cannot be recovered, so we must die. But God does not take away life; instead, he devises ways so that a banished person may not remain estranged from him. 2 Sam 14:14
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Seems a little buggy regarding duration cards.
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Rob Renaud
United States
New York
New York
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I think it just seems buggy in general.
For example, warehouse let me draw 3 cards but didn't force me to discard any.
This was on Linux under wine, btw.
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Jefferson Krogh
United States
San Leandro
California
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jatill wrote: Okay, clearly there was a misunderstanding. I thought you basically said 'go ahead and do it, but I'm not sure if RGG will be ok with you using the art'. So I went forward, art included, prepared to remove it requested. I'll remove the art immediately. Sorry!
Edit: the download link now includes images with the art blacked out. I hope that is acceptable.
People often hear what they want to hear?
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jatill wrote: Okay, clearly there was a misunderstanding. I thought you basically said 'go ahead and do it, but I'm not sure if RGG will be ok with you using the art'. So I went forward, art included, prepared to remove it requested. I'll remove the art immediately. Sorry!
Edit: the download link now includes images with the art blacked out. I hope that is acceptable.
I too am sorry; I will try to be more blatantly negative in the future.
I hate to break it to you, but the entire card is art. Even the text is on a background someone drew. I can't speak for Jay - and you should assume he will say no to everything! - but if you want to maximize the chance that no-one minds your program, you should not use any game art. Don't start from scans of the cards and blot stuff out; start from nothing. I would get you going with a stick figure version of Woodcutter, but that might be construed as me sanctioning your program, which I simply can't do. We have our own program coming and I have to support that one. It's probably better than yours anyway; I hear it has the real art and everything.
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donaldx wrote: We have our own program coming
I don't mean to hijack this thread, but: yay!
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Jeff Till
Amherst
New York
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donaldx wrote:
I hate to break it to you, but the entire card is art. Even the text is on a background someone drew. I can't speak for Jay - and you should assume he will say no to everything! - but if you want to maximize the chance that no-one minds your program, you should not use any game art. Don't start from scans of the cards and blot stuff out; start from nothing. I would get you going with a stick figure version of Woodcutter, but that might be construed as me sanctioning your program, which I simply can't do. We have our own program coming and I have to support that one. It's probably better than yours anyway; I hear it has the real art and everything.
DonaldX-
Ok, no problem. I'll remove the download link until I figure something out. I really am not trying to be a bad guy here, or hurt your product in any way. I was just unclear on what's allowed and what's not, and as someone mentioned, I heard what I wanted to hear (i.e. interpreted your response in he most convenient way for myself)
So now I'm 100% clear that I will use no scrap of art from Dominion. Are there other things I should be wary of using? Are card names and text copyrighted as well? If they are, then clearly I'm best off not sharing at all. I won't be heartbroken if that's the case; I made this game for my own enjoyment before ever knowing that an "official" version would be released at some point.
Once that version is available, everyone is happy and my game becomes obsolete, since everyone (myself included) is likely to buy that, as it will definitely be a superior product, and will be officially endorsed by RGG and yourself. Until then, I thought it would be nice to have a digital version of the game that could be played solo. I made every effort to give credit where it was due, and linked to RGG's site so that people could by the paper version.
If you (or Jay) disagree and want me to stop sharing at BGG, I will respect your wishes.
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Reverend Redd
United States
Bremerton
Washington
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jatill wrote: donaldx wrote:
I hate to break it to you, but the entire card is art. Even the text is on a background someone drew. I can't speak for Jay - and you should assume he will say no to everything! - but if you want to maximize the chance that no-one minds your program, you should not use any game art. Don't start from scans of the cards and blot stuff out; start from nothing. I would get you going with a stick figure version of Woodcutter, but that might be construed as me sanctioning your program, which I simply can't do. We have our own program coming and I have to support that one. It's probably better than yours anyway; I hear it has the real art and everything.
DonaldX- Ok, no problem. I'll remove the download link until I figure something out. I really am not trying to be a bad guy here, or hurt your product in any way. I was just unclear on what's allowed and what's not, and as someone mentioned, I heard what I wanted to hear (i.e. interpreted your response in he most convenient way for myself) So now I'm 100% clear that I will use no scrap of art from Dominion. Are there other things I should be wary of using? Are card names and text copyrighted as well? If they are, then clearly I'm best off not sharing at all. I won't be heartbroken if that's the case; I made this game for my own enjoyment before ever knowing that an "official" version would be released at some point. Once that version is available, everyone is happy and my game becomes obsolete, since everyone (myself included) is likely to buy that, as it will definitely be a superior product, and will be officially endorsed by RGG and yourself. Until then, I thought it would be nice to have a digital version of the game that could be played solo. I made every effort to give credit where it was due, and linked to RGG's site so that people could by the paper version. If you (or Jay) disagree and want me to stop sharing at BGG, I will respect your wishes.
You could always dig up the "Zombinion" re-themed stuff... all new art and everything. It'd be a shame to see such a great piece of software go to waste.
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jatill wrote: So now I'm 100% clear that I will use no scrap of art from Dominion. Are there other things I should be wary of using? Are card names and text copyrighted as well? If they are, then clearly I'm best off not sharing at all. I won't be heartbroken if that's the case; I made this game for my own enjoyment before ever knowing that an "official" version would be released at some point.
I can't speak for Jay! And I'm no lawyer. So trying to answer your questions further is not going to work out for me.
I imagine that you would just be innocently letting people play your Dominion program as we speak, except that 1) Dale decided to call attention to it, and 2) you used the real art.
That's just my imagination though and not an official endorsement, which I can't give you.
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Tommy Occhipinti
United States
Irvine
California
Magic Fanboy
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donaldx wrote: We have our own program coming
I fully support RGG coming out with their own program to play Dominion (and other games) online and against AIs. However, if they believe that something one person made in their free time is going to compete with this program they have supposedly been working on for years, it calls into question exactly what one is paying for when one buys the official Dominion computer game. Is it just the same IP and copyrighted art we already paid for when we bought the board game, or is it the careful programming and playtesting that was done to make the computer game as good as it possibly can be (as they very clearly did when making Dominion the board game)? If, as we should all hope, it is the latter, RGG has nothing to fear from projects like this one.
RGG, Donald: You are awesome. I can't imagine you will produce a Dominion product that I will not buy at least one copy of. In this instance, though, I think you are doing a great disservice to some of your customers by stopping them from expressing their love of your game in the way that is most natural to them.
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Grzegorz Kobiela
Germany
Hanover
Lower Saxony
Stalker!!!
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delirimouse wrote: RGG, Donald: You are awesome. I can't imagine you will produce a Dominion product that I will not buy at least one copy of. In this instance, though, I think you are doing a great disservice to some of your customers by stopping them from expressing their love of your game in the way that is most natural to them.
In fact, Donald and RGG can't to any differently if they want to keep their rights protected. Look what happened to Carcassonne, when they haven't been so carefully protecting their rights. Now you can buy self-made expansions on ebay and they can't to anything about it. This hurts their business more than it would if they protected their rights from the beginning like they do with Dominion.
That said, I can't wait to get my hands on the official computer version!
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So the online version of this game on BSW is no longer running? (Haven't been on BSW since last spring.)
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Drew Spencer
United States
Tucson
Arizona
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Ponton wrote: delirimouse wrote: RGG, Donald: You are awesome. I can't imagine you will produce a Dominion product that I will not buy at least one copy of. In this instance, though, I think you are doing a great disservice to some of your customers by stopping them from expressing their love of your game in the way that is most natural to them. In fact, Donald and RGG can't to any differently if they want to keep their rights protected. Look what happened to Carcassonne, when they haven't been so carefully protecting their rights. Now you can buy self-made expansions on ebay and they can't to anything about it. This hurts their business more than it would if they protected their rights from the beginning like they do with Dominion. That said, I can't wait to get my hands on the official computer version!
That's true. If someone does not enforce their IP rights whenever they come up, they risk losing them altogether.
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Tommy Occhipinti
United States
Irvine
California
Magic Fanboy
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Ponton wrote: delirimouse wrote: RGG, Donald: You are awesome. I can't imagine you will produce a Dominion product that I will not buy at least one copy of. In this instance, though, I think you are doing a great disservice to some of your customers by stopping them from expressing their love of your game in the way that is most natural to them. In fact, Donald and RGG can't to any differently if they want to keep their rights protected. Look what happened to Carcassonne, when they haven't been so carefully protecting their rights. Now you can buy self-made expansions on ebay and they can't to anything about it. This hurts their business more than it would if they protected their rights from the beginning like they do with Dominion.
I'm skeptical of this. Carcassonne is one of the best selling games of its type of all time, and has a double digit number of expansions and variations with more coming out all the time. The ambient assumption here seems to be that if someone else is making money off of Carcassonne then RGG must be making less money off it, and I see no evidence that that is true here.
That said, it is certainly conceivable that people could cost RGG business by selling low quality bootleg Dominion stuff (See: Thunderstone). But my statement was specifically addressed towards things which people made and released for free out of their love of the game.
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delirimouse wrote: I fully support RGG coming out with their own program to play Dominion (and other games) online and against AIs. However, if they believe that something one person made in their free time is going to compete with this program they have supposedly been working on for years, it calls into question exactly what one is paying for when one buys the official Dominion computer game. Is it just the same IP and copyrighted art we already paid for when we bought the board game, or is it the careful programming and playtesting that was done to make the computer game as good as it possibly can be (as they very clearly did when making Dominion the board game)? If, as we should all hope, it is the latter, RGG has nothing to fear from projects like this one.
RGG, Donald: You are awesome. I can't imagine you will produce a Dominion product that I will not buy at least one copy of. In this instance, though, I think you are doing a great disservice to some of your customers by stopping them from expressing their love of your game in the way that is most natural to them.
We have no idea what RGG believes - RGG has made no statement about this. If you want to respond to what has actually happened in reality, talk about what nonsense you think I might believe, or what Dale might believe.
No-one has (yet) said the guy can't have his program. I have said he can't use our art without permission, which shouldn't have needed saying, and that I don't think he'll get that permission. Dale has said, did you ask RGG? It's not Dale's call, but hey, it seems only polite to ask. [Yes I know he did ask, and got tired of waiting for a response.]
One way to have us be as generous to fans as possible is, don't test the limits of what we'll let you do, don't try to pinpoint the precise moment-of-lawsuit in threads on BGG, and don't specifically ask me to endorse your homemade thing. Let's just repeat this important point, not to be missed: I imagine that jatill would just be passing out his homemade program to people as we speak, with no complaints, except 1) Dale drew attention to it, so now we had to take a stance on it, and that stance obv. couldn't be "hooray, now people don't need ours!" and 2) he used our art, which he can easily take out.
I do not see how I am doing a disservice to anyone. Man, we have not asked for the chip version or Zombinion to be taken down. We haven't complained about those iphone things that pick 10 cards. And I haven't asked that he take down his program. I mean really.
Thanks for saying I'm awesome. You wouldn't be saying that if you saw how fast I go through a box of Q-tips, but still. Nevertheless it would be great if we could stop talking about this now. There is other stuff we could all be doing.
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Bryan Maxwell
United States
Burtchville
Michigan
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jatill wrote: donaldx wrote:
I hate to break it to you, but the entire card is art. Even the text is on a background someone drew. I can't speak for Jay - and you should assume he will say no to everything! - but if you want to maximize the chance that no-one minds your program, you should not use any game art. Don't start from scans of the cards and blot stuff out; start from nothing. I would get you going with a stick figure version of Woodcutter, but that might be construed as me sanctioning your program, which I simply can't do. We have our own program coming and I have to support that one. It's probably better than yours anyway; I hear it has the real art and everything.
DonaldX- Ok, no problem. I'll remove the download link until I figure something out. I really am not trying to be a bad guy here, or hurt your product in any way. I was just unclear on what's allowed and what's not, and as someone mentioned, I heard what I wanted to hear (i.e. interpreted your response in he most convenient way for myself) So now I'm 100% clear that I will use no scrap of art from Dominion. Are there other things I should be wary of using? Are card names and text copyrighted as well? If they are, then clearly I'm best off not sharing at all. I won't be heartbroken if that's the case; I made this game for my own enjoyment before ever knowing that an "official" version would be released at some point. Once that version is available, everyone is happy and my game becomes obsolete, since everyone (myself included) is likely to buy that, as it will definitely be a superior product, and will be officially endorsed by RGG and yourself. Until then, I thought it would be nice to have a digital version of the game that could be played solo. I made every effort to give credit where it was due, and linked to RGG's site so that people could by the paper version. If you (or Jay) disagree and want me to stop sharing at BGG, I will respect your wishes.
Way to stay civil and polite while Donald bitch slaps you around in public.
Donald, I can understand this is a touchy area (copyrights and all) but maybe take him out to the woodshed rather than beat him here in the toy store with everyone watching?
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Steven Metzger
United States
Pullman
Washington
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tibbs2 wrote: So the online version of this game on BSW is no longer running? (Haven't been on BSW since last spring.) It only has 35 of the 78 kingdom cards. More of a teaser than anything else.
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Steven Metzger
United States
Pullman
Washington
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donaldx wrote: You wouldn't be saying that if you saw how fast I go through a box of Q-tips, but still. We now need a fan card called "Q-Tip."
In semi-related news, the above sentence made me go for Q-tips.
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Mr_Nuts wrote: Way to stay civil and polite while Donald bitch slaps you around in public.
Donald, I can understand this is a touchy area (copyrights and all) but maybe take him out to the woodshed rather than beat him here in the toy store with everyone watching?
In fact jatill geekmail'd me privately and I responded privately. This is only going down in public because Dale (man, that guy) complained in public and jatill replied to him in public, mentioning me, as anyone who wears a bicycle helmet whenever the situation calls for it should know already.
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Dan Schaeffer
United States
Unspecified
Illinois
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banyan wrote: That's true. If someone does not enforce their IP rights whenever they come up, they risk losing them altogether.
Technically, this is only true of trademarks. One defense against trademark infringement claims is that the trademark owner effectively abandoned the mark by not policing and protecting it properly.
Copyrights, on the other hand, can be enforced selectively (as can patents). Nobody gets out of copyright infringement claims by pointing at someone else and saying "But you didn't stop HIM!"
Note: I speak of U.S. law only. I am not addressing any particular situation, most especially not the one described in this thread. I'm a lawyer, but I'm almost certainly not YOUR lawyer (for all values of YOU reading this message -- if in doubt, look in your checkbook; if you haven't paid me a retainer and/or fees, then YOU includes you).
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If you're not part of the soultion...
