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Subject: When is the proper time to abandon your regions to take other regions? rss

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Eric Bridge
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I haven't played this long, but there was a moment last night where I considered picking up some of my units (giving up free points at the end of my turn) to take other regions instead. I'm sure that this must be an important strategy, but I was curious how often others do this. If you pick up every single token can you immediately re-enter at any edge of the board? When should you consider abandoning a region?

Thanks for the advice.
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Andy Leber
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I rarely abandon a region. In fact, I'm not sure I ever have (with only about 10-15 plays under my belt).

A couple of reasons I could see it being feasable: To take a region that will give you added bonuses (human on fields)....

Also, if you really need to take out another players region... IE to get his in-decline race off the board, or to stop him from getting bonuses.

But generally, you're just giving up a point to get a point.


Edit: Also, depending on the circumstances, if another side of the board opens up, you might want to abandon all regions and come in from a differernt side...

Overall I think it would be a relatively rare move though.
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Josh
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Of course, if you're playing the Gypsies, it's almost always to your advantage to abandon every region and re-enter the board.
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John Holder
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In a 2 player game, I ended up doing this once. My son had come in on the opposite side of the board with a race with fewer members (dwarves?), and had only a couple member in his in-decline race, and I had a race with a ton of members. I abandoned every region and came in on the other side and wiped him out of most of his territories and forced an early decline which also wiped out his in-decline race, and I gained a bunch of gold over him in that 2 turn period, went on to win by 20 or so.
 
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Ben Bateson
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Equally, if it looks like you're in for a mashing from an opponent, pick up your tiles and run somewhere safe. It'll generally earn more than an under-manned decline next time round.
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Seth Owen
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I've seen it come up a bit in the games I have played. Sometimes your neighbors have set up tough defenses on the nearby areas and it's more profitable to simply pick everything up and start over from another direction.
 
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Konstantin Lasko
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There are some nice combos that make abandoning regions usefull, like pillaging orks (or gypsies), but basically I don't leave the regions.
Maybe you want to concentrate all your forces on 3-4 regions if you don't want to loose race tokens... But that's not really a good idea (unless you have 5 white ladies in decline )
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Elton Christianson
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I do this not to take regions but to weaken a race right away. Ghouls, White Ladies, Priestes, Skeltons, and any race with spirt power is a candidate for this treatment. Ghouls almost always get this treatment.
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Alex Rockwell
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In 2 player, for many races, the correct answer is 'every single turn'.
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Paul W
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In general I see it as a bad idea to abandon regions, but there are certain race power combinations where abandoning makes sense even outside of a two player game. Two that come to mind are:

Pillaging Goblins
Commando Orcs

For these races, two tokens can be used to capture a location that will yield two points, which will be just as good for them as leaving those tokens to score 1 point per token in an existing region, but also hurting an opponent in the process. Of course, even then you may want not want to abandon if you intend to decline next turn and aren't worried about your territories being overrun in the meantime.
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Eric Taylor
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ousgg wrote:
Equally, if it looks like you're in for a mashing from an opponent, pick up your tiles and run somewhere safe. It'll generally earn more than an under-manned decline next time round.


This is one of the best times to pick up tiles and book it. This is a superb strategy against early-game kobolds, who will roll over everything until they hit their natural "buddy system" limit.

While it is rare for me to completely abandon the board and re-invade (obviously with pillaging/conquering races or gypsies, this is different), it's not uncommon for me to abandon one region for the extra army. I prefer to avoid rolling the conquest die if at all possible - at best it's going to help you 50% of the time. If I only need one more army to ensure that I conquer an opponent's territory, then it's a net gain of nothing for me (-1 for losing a territory, +1 for taking one from my opponent) and a -1 for my enemy (not to mention he loses an army). It's already been mentioned that races that get bonus coins for certain types of terrain are prone to this kind of behavior, but I also find it is a good early-game strategy for taking mountains. Provided you can capture a good number of mountains, your in-decline race should be able to persist a lot longer than plains-based declined races. This is easily worth giving up a couple early game points to gain more mid-game points.
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Jim bo
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Like others have mentioned a lot boils down to the power/race combo you have at the time. Kobolds can afford to abandon non mountain regions without it impacting them because of their 2 unit restriction. A Were race can pretty much abondon everything on an even turn and retake a similar amount of territories and not be disadvantaged. Gypsies taken as read.

Where the decisions become interesting are in the marginal situations. If I'm playing an attacking combo that receives coins from conquest like pillaging, ransacking, orcs, etc then I'll be more inclined to abandon a region to make a last attack guaranteed rather than leave it as a 50/50 with the dice. Same with scoring races if that final conquest is for a double coin region.

With skeletons I'll always be on the look out for abandonment opportunities that will help maximise skeletons raised from the dead even if I might lose out a little on the coins in the short term.
 
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ronaldinho @boardspace.net
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ebridge wrote:
I haven't played this long, but there was a moment last night where I considered picking up some of my units (giving up free points at the end of my turn) to take other regions instead. I'm sure that this must be an important strategy, but I was curious how often others do this. If you pick up every single token can you immediately re-enter at any edge of the board? When should you consider abandoning a region?

Thanks for the advice.
I can't say when exactly, but I do it very often.

You are a genius for asking this question. You bring a tear to my eye.
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Trevor Schadt
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ebridge wrote:
I haven't played this long, but there was a moment last night where I considered picking up some of my units (giving up free points at the end of my turn) to take other regions instead. I'm sure that this must be an important strategy, but I was curious how often others do this. If you pick up every single token can you immediately re-enter at any edge of the board? When should you consider abandoning a region?


1) As others have said, if you're playing the Gypsies. If you don't, you're wasting their racial power.
2) If you can take a new region with 1 token. It's a no-op. Examples: Commando, Tritons, Mounted, etc.
3) If you can take a new region that hurts your enemy/ies and/or helps you with a value that, in your opinion, matches or outweighs the loss of the 1VP. Examples: Pillaging, Orcs, Skeletons, Were- (on even turns).
4) If your targeted opponent is playing a race whose power grows in decline (examples: White Ladies, Priestesses, Ghouls) or whose power grows the longer they are on the board (Skeletons, Sorcerers). Beat them down quickly.
5) One or more of your opponents have left a flank vulnerable to something in which you specialize (e.g., they have left regions with single units and you are the Sorcerers, the Priestesses are in their Tower and you are the Dragon Master, etc.).
6) If your current position either makes further expansion tactically infeasible, e.g., you are surrounded by invulnerable regions, regions with multiple units, etc., or is targeted for decimation before your next turn , e.g., you are surrounded by the Dragon Master, the Commando, the Pillager, the Orcs, etc.

Yes, if you remove all of your units from the board you must re-enter in a region that touches either the edge of the board, or one of the two Seas along the edge of the board (the Lake in the center does not count for this). It usually means giving up some free points, but if done at any of the times listed above, can be a life-saver for you and/or a complete plan-wrecker for your opponent(s).
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Eric Bridge
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I thought of a specific follow up to this question. If you pull up all of your Hobbits from the board, can you once again r-enter at any region? If yes, what about your "holes in the ground"?

Thanks again.
 
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Andy Leber
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ebridge wrote:
I thought of a specific follow up to this question. If you pull up all of your Hobbits from the board, can you once again r-enter at any region? If yes, what about your "holes in the ground"?

Thanks again.


Don't know about the official ruling, but I'd say you have to come in from the side, and the holes stay where they are.

Being able to pick up and move your holes would be fun though.
 
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Dan Schaeffer
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ebridge wrote:
I thought of a specific follow up to this question. If you pull up all of your Hobbits from the board, can you once again r-enter at any region? If yes, what about your "holes in the ground"?

Thanks again.


From the rules:
Quote:
You remove your Holes-in-the-Ground (and lose the protection they confer in these Regions) when your Halflings go into Decline, or if you choose to abandon a Region containing a Hole-in-the-Ground.


Pretty clear.
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Jeff Binning
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Quote:
I thought of a specific follow up to this question. If you pull up all of your Hobbits from the board, can you once again r-enter at any region? If yes, what about your "holes in the ground"?


You can pick them up and re-enter anywhere, but I'm pretty sure the holes go away once their space is vacated. I don't have the rules with me, so I can't cite the specific rule at the moment.
 
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Andy Leber
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Golux13 wrote:
ebridge wrote:
I thought of a specific follow up to this question. If you pull up all of your Hobbits from the board, can you once again r-enter at any region? If yes, what about your "holes in the ground"?

Thanks again.


From the rules:
Quote:
You remove your Holes-in-the-Ground (and lose the protection they confer in these Regions) when your Halflings go into Decline, or if you choose to abandon a Region containing a Hole-in-the-Ground.


Pretty clear.


Ah, that's right. Doesn't explicitly state that they are removed permanently though, but I definitely think it's inferred.
 
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Eric Bridge
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Yes, and this is why I asked. Removed does not neccessarily mean removed from the game. After all, when your active race region is attacked, one gets removed and sent to tray, but others get removed and then later redeployed. It could just mean put them back in your hand until your next "First Conquest". It seems odd that they could come into the board again in any space, as on their first turn, but not do the same with the holes. It says you use the holes on the first two regions you conquer, but I don't know if this means only the first in the game, or the first when following "First Conquest" rules.

Thanks again.
 
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Trevor Schadt
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ebridge wrote:
It says you use the holes on the first two regions you conquer, but I don't know if this means only the first in the game, or the first when following "First Conquest" rules.


Without specifically stating "If you abandon one or both Regions with Holes-In-The-Ground at the beginning of a turn, you may place them on the first Region(s) you conquer that turn" or equivalent, the more general interpretation of "those were the first two Regions the Halflings conquered" would seem to prevail. If you abandon a Region with a Hole-In-The-Ground, it is gone and cannot be replaced.
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Eric Bridge
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Thanks. That's how we'll play it.
 
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Jim bo
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ebridge wrote:
Removed does not neccessarily mean removed from the game. After all, when your active race region is attacked, one gets removed and sent to tray, but others get removed and then later redeployed.

Although the rules concerning Holes doesn't explicitly state the definition of "remove", the first condition of removal is when the Halflings go into decline. In such a case the removal is permanent as the Holes are returned to the tray along with the excess halfling tokens. So in that context I interpret removal by abandonment to also be a permanent removal to the tray unless stated otherwise.
 
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Dan Schaeffer
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Here is the entirety of the Halflings' description:

Quote:
Your Halfling tokens may enter the map through any Region of the map, not just border ones. Place a Hole-in-the-Ground in each of the first 2 Regions you conquer, to make them immune to enemy conquests as well as racial and special powers. You remove your Holes-in-the-Ground (and lose the protection they confer in these Regions) when your Halflings go into Decline, or if you choose to abandon a Region containing a Hole-in-the-Ground.


Clearly, "enter the map" is not time- or turn-specific; it clearly applies during First Conquest and any time after that when there are no Halflings on the map, i.e., through abandonment of all Regions in the Readying the Troops phase.

The next sentence does not say "Place a Hole-in-the-Ground in each of the first 2 Regions you conquer when you enter the map," which suggests to me that it applies only to the first two Regions the Halflings conquer in the game.
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