Don Frew
United States
Berkeley
California
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My gaming group played our first few games misreading the rules and played with ALL of the gods available EACH turn and we thought the game was great. Yesterday, we corrected our error and didn't like the game as much. Played correctly, someone gets the prosperity marker from Apollon each turn. This led to a rapid escalation of the amount of money being thrown around and seemed to make the game all about the money. Are we missing something?
This leads to my second question. Is there a maximum amount that can be offered to a god? The largest amount that can be indicated is 20 GP. We had players offering 20 GP to a god just so no other player could possibly out"bid" them.
We still enjoy the game, tho', and pending clarification we may adopt an "all gods all the time" house rule.
Don
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D Efendioglu
United States
San Francisco
California
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It's strange that your group had so much money to fling around - were you not buying any additional stuff when taking your turn (troops/ships/buildings/etc)? That's usually a big money sink, and even with Apollo being taken each turn, that's only an increase of 1 cornucopia on the board each turn, and usually not to the same player consecutively (else it's too easy to lose them). The largest bid I've seen in my games was 13, but usually the high bids for my group are in the 7-8 range.
I should also ask how much your standard income per player was - usually when a player gets to about 5 or 6 gold a turn they draw the attention of the others who want a piece for themselves, capping the income (and thus the bidding).
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Don Frew
United States
Berkeley
California
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By the end of the last game of three players, one player's turn income was 8 GP, the second was 11 GP, the third was 13 GP. We rarely attacked each other. On each turn it always seemed more advantageous to pursue metropoli rather than attack another player.
Looking back on it... in both of the last two games, the board was decimated early on by fleet combats assisted by Mythological Creatures and quick attacks, leaving only a couple of fleets on the board, and they were tied up with holding onto trade arrows. There were islands with 4 or 5 cornucopia, but no one in a position to attack. So with little opportunity to move armies between islands, it was easier to just build buildings and acquire money.
Anyway, what about the maximum bid?
Thanks, Don
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George
United States
Pennsylvania
You can take my game… when you pry my cold, dead fingers off the board!
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I don't think there is a maximum bid... but something definitely seems fishy.
Were you playing with the 3 player setup of a smaller board?
Did you have costs correct for armies/fleets? (e.g. A second army is 2 gp, and a third is 3 MORE gp, etc. so 5gp total for 3 armies or 9gp total for 4 armies.)
Can't think of what else, but something ain't right! 
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Fabien Conus
Switzerland
Geneva
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I agree with George.
In all the games of Cyclades I've played, we've always been short on money. Money is always an issue.
And I've never seen an income of 13 GP ! That's huge ! If a player had that much money, I would definitely try to get his island, or I would steal his money with the Griffon.
That said, the three players setup is probably the weakest. Try a five players game.
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FabienC wrote: I agree with George.
In all the games of Cyclades I've played, we've always been short on money. Money is always an issue.
And I've never seen an income of 13 GP !
In our last game (3 palyers), one player used Ares + Pegasus to attack the other two players.
Thereafter, his revenues changed from 4 to 8 and more later about 13 or 14 GPs each turn.
Was impossible for other players to compete with this player...Finally, the rich player was the overwhelming winner.
I think that game is a bit unbalanced in this point, so it's quite difficult to catch or disturb the richest player. If he wants, the other players will never get Ares and he can just buy criatures in order to benifit him or to simply harm the other players.
With our group, we are thinking to modify some rules:
-The player who bids Ares or Poseidon has the free unit as usual, BUT other players can also buy units by paying double and limited to two units for they. So: 2 GPS for first fleet, 4 GP for second fleet and 4 GP for first troop and 6 for second troop.
-Pegasus can only carry 3 units.
-If someone attacks an isle with income tokens on that, half of these are lost.
-With Zeus it is also possible to spend 1GP to discover a new criature on an empty space (not only on ocupped space as usual).
That's my opinion.
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Don Frew
United States
Berkeley
California
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Re: George and Fabien... Yes, we were playing with all the rules you mention. I'm glad that Marc has had a similar experience. What about:
1) Allowing all gods all the time, so Apollon is not picked as often?
2) The question of the maximum offering? Can a player offer more than 20 GP?
Thanks,
Don
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DHFrew3 wrote:
Re: George and Fabien... Yes, we were playing with all the rules you mention. I'm glad that Marc has had a similar experience. What about:
1) Allowing all gods all the time, so Apollon is not picked as often?
I will try...Sure that could be work fine.
DHFrew3 wrote:
2) The question of the maximum offering? Can a player offer more than 20 GP?
There's no maximum specified on rules, so if you find any way to represent it on the board, I understand that you can do it.
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Fabien Conus
Switzerland
Geneva
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DHFrew3 wrote:
Re: George and Fabien... Yes, we were playing with all the rules you mention. I'm glad that Marc has had a similar experience. What about:
1) Allowing all gods all the time, so Apollon is not picked as often?
2) The question of the maximum offering? Can a player offer more than 20 GP?
Thanks,
Don
1) I don't understand why you think Apollon is so powerful. I mean, yes, he gives you money, but you can't do any actions. If you opponents are playing well, they should take advantage of you being "stuck" on Apollon to expand, conquer, buy creatures...
That said, I will repeat that the 3-players versions if probably the weakest and I strongly urge you to play with four or five players.
2) Max offering is theoretically 20 GP. But the maximum I ever seen was 14 GP.
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DHFrew3 wrote:
1) I don't understand why you think Apollon is so powerful. I mean, yes, he gives you money, but you can't do any actions. If you opponents are playing well, they should take advantage of you being "stuck" on Apollon to expand, conquer, buy creatures...
I think Don means precisely the opposite ....So if you can choose between all gods, you can bid on one more powerful than Apollo.
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Fabien Conus
Switzerland
Geneva
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Akeold wrote: DHFrew3 wrote:
1) I don't understand why you think Apollon is so powerful. I mean, yes, he gives you money, but you can't do any actions. If you opponents are playing well, they should take advantage of you being "stuck" on Apollon to expand, conquer, buy creatures...
I think Don means precisely the opposite ....So if you can choose between all gods, you can bid on one more powerful than Apollo.
But then, where is the fun ???
Where is the tension of overbidding to get a god and be able to perform actions ? Where is the challenge of trying to keep as much money as possible and at the same time trying to get the favor of a god ?
I think it is very important to have to decide at one point to give up and "retreat" to Appolo.
If every turn the players can get a god for 1 GP, then the game has no interest.
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Yes, you are right.
Anyway, I'm sure that in any moment of the game all players will want to bid Ares or Poseidon, so there will be also bidding, not so much agressive, but...
I do not agree also with this rule. I think that the original one is the best.
But I am strongly considering applying the rules I mentioned above...
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Don Frew
United States
Berkeley
California
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For those having trouble understanding the large amounts of GP in my game... Our last three-player game ran 26 turns. With a player getting the first space of Apollon - and so a prosperity marker for one of their islands - EVERY turn, that means the total number of prosperity markers added to the board was 26. Divided by three players, that's an average of 8+ prosperity markers gained over the course of the game, plus the 2 they started with, totaling 10+ GP income each turn on average. Since "average" means just that, we actually ended up with one player getting 8 GP income, the second 11 GP income, and the third 13 GP income. Save some of your money for one turn and its easy to offer 20+ GP to a god on the following turn.
Just FYI.
I would still like to know for sure if the offerings can be greater than the maximum 20 that can be indicated on the board. I heard one "yes" in response, but does anyone know for sure?
Thanks, Don
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OMG! A bidding-game where money and income is important part of strategy? It cannot be!
Id say you were playing pretty poorly by the sounds of it, if you let one player just gather so much income without a fight. In our games, taking Apollo many times means you are very likely to be overrun by someone else using Ares.
You said it yourself, that you didnt have much wars, maybe there should be?
Why not play monopoly if you just want to gather money and move around the board without confrontation. 
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Don Frew
United States
Berkeley
California
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Dear Tommi,
You're missing the point. We DID have wars and confrontation. One player didn't amass so much GP, ALL the players did (8, 11, and 14 GP income). Played according to the rules, one player MUST get Apollon each turn which means that one prosperity marker is added to the board EVERY TURN. The longer the game goes, the more money is on the board. In my opinion, this is more likely to occur with well matched players, resulting in the game taking more turns.
So, maybe that's the problem with Cyclades. If a game is over quickly, it's great, but if players or card draws result in a longer running game, then it IS all about the money.
Don
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Don Frew
United States
Berkeley
California
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My players didn't view getting Apollon as "retreating", once the financial advantages became clear.
Yes, when we played with "all gods all the time" you could always get A god for 1 GP, but it was rarely your first choice. Also, the awareness that someone could get a god for 1 GP became an important factor to consider in the offering phase. What most often happened was that someone had worked out just the right amount of GP for a particular god, got bumped and got another god for 1 GP, and now had to figure out to shift gears and use an excess of GP to use that god for greatest advantage.
Thanks, Don
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Chansoo Lee
United States
Williamstown
Massachusetts
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DHFrew3 wrote:
By the end of the last game of three players, one player's turn income was 8 GP, the second was 11 GP, the third was 13 GP. We rarely attacked each other. On each turn it always seemed more advantageous to pursue metropoli rather than attack another player.
Thanks, Don
I simply cannot understand how three players made a total of 32GP's in a turn. Each player starts with income of 2, which is total of 6 GP's. That means the game went for TWENTY SIX TURNS????? Did everyone fully understand the language-free symbols(which is effectively a new language to learn  ) on the cards? You can simply end the game by gathering up philosophers, or stealing one by using creature, or attacking a city with metropolice. I just don't understand how you guys ended up playing 26 turns. By the time you were making total of 20-ish in a turn, someone--or I would even say everyone but who was stuck with Apollo--should have been able to finish the game. Are you playing with the correct bidding rule that you can't overbid on the god, for which someone just overbid you? i.e) you bid 8 for Zeus -> someone else bid 10 for Zeus-> then you can't bid 11 for Zeus again right away. This prevents an infinite chain overbidding on a god between two players.
*edited for clarity.
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Don Frew
United States
Berkeley
California
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Yes, Chansoo, that game did go 26 turns. I'm sorry, but our games regularly go over 20 turns, with fewer being the exception. Yes, (after realizing that the number of Gods should be limited by the number of players), we have read and understood the rules and played by every one of them. In our games it is quite common for metropoli to be destroyed or change hands more than once. Also, to address your comment about "bidding", in our longer games, the offerings to the gods end up being up to and sometimes over 20 GP, to keep another player from getting a God that will win the game for him or her. This doesn't leave much GP left for actions.
As I have said, well matched players will prolong games. It probably matters that we have been playing board games together for over 30 years, and so can anticipate each others' strategies and tactics, and have worked together writing or playtesting published games and so have a good sense of how games work.
I am still left thinking that if the game is a shorter one, then money is not really an issue, but if the game runs long (which will be more likely 1) with well-matched players, 2) who know each other, and 3) are experienced gamers), then money will be the crucial, deciding factor.
In our opinion, playing with all 5 Gods all the time, makes it less likely (necessarily) that Apollon will be picked every turn and so the overall board GP income will increase more slowly.
Don
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D Efendioglu
United States
San Francisco
California
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DHFrew3 wrote: In our games it is quite common for metropoli to be destroyed or change hands more than once.
How are you destroying a metropolis? The only way I can think of this happening is with the Giant, but his power doesn't work on a metropolis.
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Gláucio Reis
Brazil
Rio de Janeiro
RJ
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DHFrew3 wrote: we have read and understood the rules and played by every one of them.
I don't think so, based on your next sentence...
Quote: In our games it is quite common for metropoli to be destroyed or change hands more than once.
There is no way to destroy a metropolis. Changing hands should not delay the game, and in fact may cause it to end sooner.
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Don Frew
United States
Berkeley
California
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You are correct. I mispoke. I meant that the buildings that go into making a metroplis get destroyed and that they and the metropoli change hands more than once.
Don
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Was George Orwell an Optimist?
Spain
Corvallis
Oregon
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DHFrew3 wrote: As I have said, well matched players will prolong games. It probably matters that we have been playing board games together for over 30 years, and so can anticipate each others' strategies and tactics, and have worked together writing or playtesting published games and so have a good sense of how games work.
It also raises the question of groupthink. I don't know enough about the game to agree or disagree with your conclusions, but I do think it would be interesting to have an experienced Cyclades player or two from outside your group play with you, and see whether the pattern stands up.
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My 2 cents:
1. I agree that if the players are evenly matched and work together to avoid a possible victory, the games will be a lot longer.
2. But, if this happens, money will not be a determinating factor because:
A) Evenly matched players will probably have evenly matched income per turn (otherwise they are not evenly matched);
B) When someone apeears to have an advantage, all other players will conspire against him and it is very difficult to beat everyone else.
Believe it or not, I've just played a 4 hour game in which iminent victory changed hands in the last two hours every turn. Epic. Money was important, but that was no such a thing as the richest player, as no one could remain the richest for too long.
3. Turtling does prolong the game and also favors whoever managed to accumulate more money, but turtling is an strategy increbly easy to destroy in this game, specially working together with the other players.
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Brian Kleger
United States
Philadelphia
Pennsylvania
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DHFrew3 wrote:
Is there a maximum amount that can be offered to a god? The largest amount that can be indicated is 20 GP. We had players offering 20 GP to a god just so no other player could possibly out"bid" them.
Don
I only played Cyclades once, but this situation did happen. After a brief discussion, we houseruled that 20 GP was the max offering. It occured because a player got stuck with Apollo twice in a row, so he had money, there were no cash redistributing monsters, and he had a few priest discounts.
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tj
United States
Minnesota
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DHFrew3 wrote:
By the end of the last game of three players, one player's turn income was 8 GP, the second was 11 GP, the third was 13 GP. We rarely attacked each other. On each turn it always seemed more advantageous to pursue metropoli rather than attack another player.
Looking back on it... in both of the last two games, the board was decimated early on by fleet combats assisted by Mythological Creatures and quick attacks, leaving only a couple of fleets on the board, and they were tied up with holding onto trade arrows. There were islands with 4 or 5 cornucopia, but no one in a position to attack. So with little opportunity to move armies between islands, it was easier to just build buildings and acquire money.
Anyway, what about the maximum bid?
Thanks, Don
You guys were turtling. If you sit and build up and don't play aggressively of course Apollo becomes the go to god.
Fleets were decimated early, so what? Boats are cheap. First is free and the second is 1GP if I remember correctly. Players wouldn't be sitting on Apollo every turn if they saw a chain of boats getting closer and closer.
Most of my games have been with 2 players so far. It is the same scenario that someone will get Apollo every cycle cause each player uses 2 offering markers with one god out of play for the turn. Despite that, the highest I have ever seen a players income get to is 10GP and the game was over shortly after that. (and this is with the 3 Metropolis win condition)
Apollo is supposed to be a catch-up mechanic, not the path to victory. Personally I like to go for Zeus more to get as many priests as I can so I can control the bidding by offering more but paying less later on.
On the topic of the maximum bid, it has been discussed in my group and we came to the conclusion that if you have the cash you can bid as high as you want. But only 1 time a 20+ offering has been made (it was 21) and it was the same game that ended shortly after a player got an income of 10GP.
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