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Subject: Timing of Terraforming Engineer's "replace" power rss

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Keldon Jones
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I'm having some trouble understanding how best to implement Terraforming Engineer's "replace" power. When exactly is it used?

a) Before worlds are chosen
b) After worlds are chosen, during the owner's "action" where they pay for their chosen world/declare a takeover attempt, etc
c) After everyone has acted, but before takeovers are resolved
d) After takeovers are resolved, at the very end of the phase
e) Any of the above, at the owner's choice gulp

If the answer is (b) or (c), what happens if I am late in the turn order, and an earlier player has declared a takeover attempt against one of my peaceful worlds with Imperium Invasion Fleet? Can I replace the targeted world and cause the takeover to fail? Or does the attempt now target the "replacement"?
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Mark Kelsey
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I don't know the answer to this, but as a fellow programmer I can understand the logical headaches involved in implementing this type of stuff and needing to know everything to this level of detail.

So I just want to say, "Thank you!" for your excellent implementation, Keldon, and am looking forward to the next version.
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Once the Geek has you, there is no escape...
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I'm guessing that Tom's answer is going to mean that you've got your work cut out for you.

Sorry, if you've got to read this twice, but I posted in the AI thread that a drop down menu (such as the one for the Consume phase) might be good idea for all the phases.
 
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Tom Lehmann
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mrkeldon wrote:
[...][Re:] Terraforming Engineer's "replace" power. When exactly is it used?

b) After worlds are chosen, during the owner's "action" where they pay for their chosen world/declare a takeover attempt, etc.

(This is when powers are normally used.)
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If the answer is (b) or (c), what happens if I am late in the turn order, and an earlier player has declared a takeover attempt against one of my peaceful worlds with Imperium Invasion Fleet [and Casus Belli or some other takeover power]

Note: IIF does *not* have any takeover power itself; though it can be combined with takeover powers.

If a takeover attempt is pending against the target of the replacement power, the replacement is announced but its resolution is delayed until the takeover is resolved. If the takeover fails, perform the replacement. Otherwise, the proposed replacement fails (and is returned to its owner's hand). Note that the proposed replacement world is not a card capable of being discarded for temporary Military on defense (assuming the defender has such powers).

Also note that if no takeover attempt is pending, the replacement simply takes place. Any later takeover attempts could not then be declared versus the previous world, but could be declared versus its replacement.
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Wei-Hwa Huang
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Tom can overrule me, but I believe the answer is:

(b). It's a power. Settle powers are activated during the time when Settle powers are activated, namely during payment. Only the "takeover resolution" step is separate.

A takeover attempt is against a specific world in a specific player's tableau that cannot be newly-placed. If the world is no longer in the player's tableau, the takeover attempt fails.

It is remotely possible that during the Settle phase, the world may leave your tableau and come back. For example, say you have Epsilon Eridani, Improved Logistics, Terraforming Engineers, Imperium Fuel Depot, and there is one card in the draw pile. You choose to activate powers in this order:
* Terraforming Engineers, replacing Epsilon Eridani with Galactic Trendsetters. EE goes to the discard pile.
* Imperium Fuel Depot. You draw two cards, but there's only one card in the draw pile. So a reshuffle happens, and lo and behold, you draw Epsilon Eridani.
* Improved Logistics. You put out Epsilon Eridani as a second Settle.

In this case, if an opponent earlier in the turn order used Imperium Invasion Fleet to attack Epsilon Eridani, the takeover would fail because Epsilon Eridani is a newly placed world, even though it was in your tableau at the start of your turn!

I mention this weird and unlikely event only because you might be tempted to implement takeover conditions as (world, target player) when you really need to implement it as (world, target player, newly placed).
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Tom Lehmann
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While I agree with Wei-Hwa's general point, since replacement worlds are not considered "placed", they *are* potential targets for takeovers (with the IIF/takeover combo) in the round they replace an existing world.
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David desJardins
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You could ask the same question about a takeover attempt against Doomed World. Following the logic of Tom's response, are we supposed to delay finding out whether I can discard Doomed World in order to use its power until after I find out whether it was successfully taken over? And if I tried to use its power and the takeover was successful then am I supposed to go back and pay the cost of the world that I placed, whose cost I thought was reduced to zero but actually wasn't?

Wei-Hwa's answer (pending takeovers don't prevent worlds from being replaced or discarded, and if that happens to your takeover target, your takeover just fails) seems more logical to me and more what I would expect from reading the rules.
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Tom Lehmann
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DaviddesJ wrote:
are we supposed to delay finding out whether I can discard Doomed World in order to use its power until after I find out whether it was successfully taken over?

No.
Quote:
if I tried to use its power and the takeover was successful then am I supposed to go back and pay the cost of the world that I placed, whose cost I thought was reduced to zero but actually wasn't?

The cost *was* reduced to 0. You're inventing "back-in-times" that don't exist.

Let me repeat what I said in another thread. Replacing a world is different from placing a world. It is also different from discarding a world. It is also different from having a world taken over.

If a takeover target is taken over by another takeover that resolves first (or is discarded), then the later takeover attempt fails. This is explicitly stated in the takeover rules. That case is different from the replacing a world case.

I can see where your argument is coming from, when looking at this from a certain, very narrow, technical view of the situation. However, when looked at from a broader game play perspective -- taking in account all the reasons that newly placed worlds, their powers, and their attributes are not permitted to affect a phase's resolution; why newly placed worlds are not permitted to be takeover targets; why certain powers' effects are delayed until after a takeover is resolved; why takeovers work the way they do -- allowing world replacement to resolve after a declared takeover has been made, but before it has been resolved, would be an error.
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David desJardins
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So, to summarize:

If someone declares a takeover against my Doomed World, and I then want to discard it to place another world for no cost, then I get the benefit and the takeover automatically fails.

If someone declares a takeover against my (generic) world, and I then want to use Terraforming Engineers to replace that world with a different world, then my invocation of that power is held in abeyance, and we wait to see whether the takeover succeeds to see whether I get to replace it or not.

Is that right?

I don't have any big problem with the "held in abeyance" thing, but it seems pretty hard to deduce this is what you are supposed to do from just reading the rulebook.
 
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Tom Lehmann
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DaviddesJ wrote:
If someone declares a takeover against my Doomed World, and I then want to discard it to place another world for no cost, then I get the benefit and the takeover automatically fails.

Correct. This is a reasonably straight-forward extension of the RvI rules and has nothing to do with TBoW.
Quote:
If someone declares a takeover against my [non-military] world [using both Imperium Invasion Fleet and an applicable takeover power], and I then want to use Terraforming Engineers to replace that world with a different world, then my [resolution] of [the invoked Terraforming Engineer's replacement] power is held in abeyance, and we wait to see whether the takeover succeeds to see whether I get to replace it or not.

Correct, with the qualifications noted above.

Yes, I agree that this rather extreme corner case wasn't handled well in the TBoW rules and should be included in a FAQ.

(The spirit of the ruling I give above is actually consistent with the deep structure of the takeover rules and why the resolution of certain powers gets delayed until the end of the Takeover Resolution Step, but this was extremely hard to deduce.)
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Keldon Jones
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Thanks for the answers (to this and others) Tom. I'm glad you agree this isn't exactly clear from the rules -- I had imagined a few likely responses, but yours definitely wasn't one of them!

Hopefully this is the last of my questions. I think I've got all the new card powers figured out, and the other new stuff in this expansion seems pretty straightforward. Now to figure out how to handle Alien Oort Cloud Refinery. If I ever run across this "Michael Brough" character he might want to avoid taking credit for this monstrosity.
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*hides*

edit: Actually, the version I sent in (despite being clumsier and not working with some of the other new powers in the expansion, etc.) would probably have been easier to implement. So blame Tom, not me!
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JW
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Let me see if I got this right. All the talk about 'pending' is confusing me.

Let's say my opponent has IIF and ICB and has the sufficient military to takeover my Destroyed World (I'm thinking about the 1 cost non military brown windfall; correct me if I got the name wrong). I have Terraforming Engineers, and want to swap my Destroyed World out for something else.

Scenario 1:
I have the lower numbered start world, and he has the higher numbered one. There is a settle phase in this turn.
1)We both put a card face down for the settle phase
2)I reveal the card I want to settle, my opponent takes back his card, declining to settle this turn
3) I discard cards to pay for my world, and then use Terraforming Engineers' power to swap out my Destroyed world for something else
4) My opponent now discards IIF and declares which world he wants to takeover, and the world that I swapped with Destroyed World is also a legal target
5) Resolve takeovers

Scenario 2:
I have the higher numbered start world. There is a settle phase this turn.
1) We both put a card face down for the settle phase
2) I reveal the card I want to settle, my opponent takes back his card, declining to settle this turn
3) My opponent discards IIF and declares takeover on my Destroyed World
4) I discard cards to pay for my world, then use Terraforming Engineers' power, declaring that I want to swap Destroyed World; however, because there is a takeover power pending on Destroyed World, I have to resolve takeovers first
5) Resolve takeovers
5a) If takeover is successful, my swap fails
5b) If takeover is unsuccessful, I get to swap Destroyed World for something else

Are my examples correct? If they are, in scenario 1, say I swap out Destroyed World for Blaster Gem Mines, which gives +1 military. Does this extra military count towards my defense of the takeover?
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Tom Lehmann
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crushedguava wrote:
Are my examples correct?

Yes. The one quibble I have with scenario 2 is that you declare your intended replacement during your powers and payments (step 4), showing the world and setting that card aside. There's no choice after the takeover is resolved (5b); either the takeover fails and this replacement occurs, or the takeover succeeds and you then return this card to your hand.
Quote:
In scenario 1, say I swap out Destroyed World for Blaster Gem Mines, which gives +1 military. Does this extra military count towards my defense of the takeover?

No. Its powers may not be used this phase, as noted on page 12, TBoW.
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JW
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Tom Lehmann wrote:
crushedguava wrote:
Are my examples correct?

Yes. The one quibble I have with scenario 2 is that you declare your intended replacement during your powers and payments (step 4), showing the world and setting that card aside. There's no choice after the takeover is resolved (5b); either the takeover fails and this replacement occurs, or the takeover succeeds and you then return this card to your hand.
Quote:
In scenario 1, say I swap out Destroyed World for Blaster Gem Mines, which gives +1 military. Does this extra military count towards my defense of the takeover?

No. Its powers may not be used this phase, as noted on page 12, TBoW.

Alright. Thanks Tom.
 
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JW
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Race for the Galaxy FAQ wrote:
Q: Does the new world start with a good?
A: The new world starts with a good only if it is a windfall world, or you have a settle power that places a good on it (eg Golden Age of Terraforming). The absence or presence of a good on the replaced world is irrelevant.

I had the impression that Terraforming Engineers' power cannot be combined with any other settle power. If GAoT puts a good onto the replacing world, can I draw a card if I have Terraforming Guild as well?
 
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Tom Lehmann
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crushedguava wrote:
Race for the Galaxy FAQ wrote:
Q: Does the new world start with a good?
A: The new world starts with a good only if it is a windfall world, or you have a settle power that places a good on it (eg Golden Age of Terraforming). The absence or presence of a good on the replaced world is irrelevant.

I had the impression that Terraforming Engineers' power cannot be combined with any other settle power. If GAoT puts a good onto the replacing world, can I draw a card if I have Terraforming Guild as well?

You are correct; the FAQ is in error. No, TG doesn't draw a card for the replaced world (as has been covered in several threads before).
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Tom Lehmann
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FYI, I fixed this in the FAQ.
 
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Jason Woolever
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I have a follow up scenario. Let's say I have Improved Logistics (or Rebel Sneak Attack) and Alien Booby Trap in play (but no prestige), in addition to Terraforming Engineers and a replaceable world. I place a world during Settle and intend to replace a world then place a second military world using Improved Logistics, consuming a prestige gained from using Terraforming Engineers to have sufficient military power to do it. But, my opponent (earlier in turn order) declared a takeover attempt on the world I intend to replace.

I'm assuming that I can't actually place the second military world in this case, even if I know I can prevent the takeover. Had the takeover not been declared, I could follow the plan, but it seems like the mere threat of a takeover stops me in my tracks.
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Tom Lehmann
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qubits wrote:
it seems like the mere threat of a takeover stops me in my tracks.

Not the "threat", but the actual declaration itself, which -- since it is against a non-military world *by definition* (since only non-military worlds can be replaced by Terraforming Engineers), involves the attacker discarding Imperium Invasion Fleet in order to make this declaration. To do so in a situation where the takeover is then going to fail (your scenario) -- just to block a player from gaining a prestige to power the military conquest of some other unseen world in hand -- seems pretty far-fetched to me...

Yes, computer implementations obviously have to code for such corner-cases, but I would be pretty surprised if this code ever executes in actual play.
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Tom Lehmann wrote:
While [...] replacement worlds are not considered "placed", they *are* potential targets for takeovers (with the IIF/takeover combo) in the round they replace an existing world.

To reverse this, perhaps a stupid question, but i need to be certain: is the discarded *replaced* world still considered to be in play until end of phase, like any discarded card? Say if it provides military power, would it help defend a takeover even if you replaced it?

I'm guessing it would, but it's strange that you basically have 2 cards in play at once - i.e. for the period of the phase it is not a true "replace", they both have persistence.
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Tom Lehmann
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entranced wrote:
is the discarded *replaced* world still considered to be in play until end of phase, like any discarded card? Say if it provides military power, would it help defend a takeover even if you replaced it?

The powers and attributes of the old world persist until the end of the phase; the power and attributes of the new one "essentially" don't take effect until then, so it seems a bit strange to me to talk about them both somehow being there together.

For example, suppose the old world provided +1 Military and the new world provides +1 Military. At no point in the turn, do you ever have +2 Military, or +0 Military... Under most alternative rules formulations, this would not hold true.
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Tom Lehmann wrote:
The powers and attributes of the old world persist until the end of the phase; the power and attributes of the new one "essentially" don't take effect until then, so it seems a bit strange to me to talk about them both somehow being there together.

I guess the only weird part to me then is that the powers persist for the old, but the new can be taken over. But TE is what it is. Thanks for the info.
 
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alexander stark
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crushedguava wrote:
Let me see if I got this right. All the talk about 'pending' is confusing me.

Let's say my opponent has IIF and ICB and has the sufficient military to takeover my Destroyed World (I'm thinking about the 1 cost non military brown windfall; correct me if I got the name wrong). I have Terraforming Engineers, and want to swap my Destroyed World out for something else.

Scenario 1:
I have the lower numbered start world, and he has the higher numbered one. There is a settle phase in this turn.
1)We both put a card face down for the settle phase
2)I reveal the card I want to settle, my opponent takes back his card, declining to settle this turn
3) I discard cards to pay for my world, and then use Terraforming Engineers' power to swap out my Destroyed world for something else
4) My opponent now discards IIF and declares which world he wants to takeover, and the world that I swapped with Destroyed World is also a legal target
5) Resolve takeovers

Scenario 2:
I have the higher numbered start world. There is a settle phase this turn.
1) We both put a card face down for the settle phase
2) I reveal the card I want to settle, my opponent takes back his card, declining to settle this turn
3) My opponent discards IIF and declares takeover on my Destroyed World
4) I discard cards to pay for my world, then use Terraforming Engineers' power, declaring that I want to swap Destroyed World; however, because there is a takeover power pending on Destroyed World, I have to resolve takeovers first
5) Resolve takeovers
5a) If takeover is successful, my swap fails
5b) If takeover is unsuccessful, I get to swap Destroyed World for something else

Are my examples correct? If they are, in scenario 1, say I swap out Destroyed World for Blaster Gem Mines, which gives +1 military. Does this extra military count towards my defense of the takeover?


Sorry for up this thread, but I still have doubts about Terraforming Engineers and Doomed World. I don't know why their powers work differently despite they do the same, put a world replacing another.

Then in the scenarios crushedguava said before, if instead of use Terraforming Engineers you use Doomed World, can you put the replace world in both scenarios without problem? If yes, I don't know the reason.
 
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Tom Lehmann
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alexandermagno wrote:
I still have doubts about Terraforming Engineers and Doomed World. I don't know why their powers work differently despite they do the same, put a world replacing another.

They don't do the same thing. Doomed World's power is a *cost reduction* power, not a card swapping or replacement power. It can only apply to a world placed face down on the table at the beginning of Settle (or later, via Improved Logistics or some other power).

Quote:
In the scenarios [above], if instead of use Terraforming Engineers you use Doomed World [as the intended payment for Destroyed World, the target of the takeovers and the world placed by me face down during Settle], can you [place Destroyed World] in both scenarios without problem?

Yes, since a newly placed world cannot be the target of a takeover; see the RvI takeover rules.

Perhaps this is not the scenario you are asking about -- instead, you are trying to ask what happens if an already placed Doomed World that you are intending to use as a payment is the target of the takeover, but that's a different scenario than the ones you quoted and was already answered above.
 
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