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Kevin Bracey
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I just sent off an AI bug report to Keldon, but I'm now doubting myself.





If I have Imperium Invasion Fleet + Imperium Seat, and an opponent has Rebel Cantina, but no Rebel military worlds, can I attempt a takeover?

It's clear enough that the combination could takeover Rebel Cantina, and it's been confirmed here, but what about vulnerability? RvI page 3:

Quote:
A player is vulnerable to the Imperium Seat’s takeover power if he has at least one Rebel military world in his tableau.


Does Rebel Cantina temporarily become military to satisfy that vulnerability test?
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Tom Lehmann
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Kevin Bracey wrote:
Does Rebel Cantina temporarily become military to satisfy that vulnerability test?

No. Once the Rebel Cantina "recruits" a Rebel Military world, then the Imperium Seat player can first takeover the Cantina, discarding IIF, and then later takeover the Rebel Military world.
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Serge
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Tom Lehmann wrote:
Kevin Bracey wrote:
Does Rebel Cantina temporarily become military to satisfy that vulnerability test?

No. Once the Rebel Cantina "recruits" another Rebel Military world, then the Imperium Seat player can first takeover the Cantina, discarding IIF, and then later takeover the Rebel Military world.

I might be imagining things here... Say if RC has nothing else in play, are you saying that IS+IIF can't takeover RC?
 
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Troy Adlington
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entranced wrote:
Tom Lehmann wrote:
Kevin Bracey wrote:
Does Rebel Cantina temporarily become military to satisfy that vulnerability test?

No. Once the Rebel Cantina "recruits" another Rebel Military world, then the Imperium Seat player can first takeover the Cantina, discarding IIF, and then later takeover the Rebel Military world.

I might be imagining things here... Say if RC has nothing else in play, are you saying that IS+IIF can't takeover RC?


Yes that's exactly what he is saying.

There are no rebel military worlds. Therefore that tableau is immune to that other player's takeover abilities.

 
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ackmondual
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Tom Lehmann wrote:
Kevin Bracey wrote:
Does Rebel Cantina temporarily become military to satisfy that vulnerability test?

No. Once the Rebel Cantina "recruits" another Rebel Military world, then the Imperium Seat player can first takeover the Cantina, discarding IIF, and then later takeover the Rebel Military world.
Interesting. In RvI, I initially told people that IS makes REBEL tableaus vulnerable, but it can only go after REBEL military worlds anyways (in other words, it cannot go after Rebel Pact, Rebel Cantina, nor Rebel Alliance). I simplified that to IS just goes after REBEL military worlds. With a card like IFF, I gotta keep all that in mind now.
 
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Kevin Bracey
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Thank you!

It means the vulnerability to Imperium Seat isn't just a tautology - "you're vulnerable to takeover of X if it exists". That's how I initially viewed it - a note, unlike the deliberate restriction on the other two takeover powers.

But on the other hand, maybe Imperium Seat needs a fuller explanation to cover this.

At the minute, the card and the power description in the rules just say "take over a Rebel military world".

The fact the Imperium Seat vulnerability rule is only mentioned in the "vulnerability" section, but not when the takeover power is described, makes the power seem simpler than it is.
 
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Tom Lehmann
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Kevin Bracey wrote:
The fact the Imperium Seat vulnerability rule is only mentioned in the "vulnerability" section, but not when the takeover power is described, makes the power seem simpler than it is.

It is that simple, except in the IIF/RC corner case. That's the only time the precise definition of IS's vulnerability ever matters.

IMO, niggly corner cases (which are covered by the rules, but it takes some effort to deduce them) are properly addressed by a FAQ.
 
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ackmondual
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Tom Lehmann wrote:
Kevin Bracey wrote:
The fact the Imperium Seat vulnerability rule is only mentioned in the "vulnerability" section, but not when the takeover power is described, makes the power seem simpler than it is.

It is that simple, except in the IIF/RC corner case. That's the only time the precise definition of IS's vulnerability ever matters.

IMO, niggly corner cases (which are covered by the rules, but it takes some effort to deduce them) are properly addressed by a FAQ.
This was never any thought with ICT, as it doesn't let you combine it with any TO powers. Now that IIF let's you do that, you could do stuff like....

You have Rebel Alliance and IFF



When you discard IFF to place a non-military world (from your hand) as a military world, since you get to use TO powers towards that, would your military strength be 4 (on top of the optional +2 from each discard from hand to fuel the pay-for-military power) since you have 2 REBEL military worlds supporting that?
 
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Brendon Russell
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ackmondual wrote:
When you discard IFF to place a non-military world (from your hand) as a military world, since you get to use TO powers towards that, would your military strength be 4 (on top of the optional +2 from each discard from hand to fuel the pay-for-military power) since you have 2 REBEL military worlds supporting that?


Rebel Alliance's additional military only applies if you're actually attempting a takeover.
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Tom Lehmann
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ackmondual wrote:
When you discard IFF to place a non-military world (from your hand) as a military world, [...]

This is not a takeover.
Quote:
since you get to use TO powers towards that, would your military strength be 4 (on top of the optional +2 from each discard from hand to fuel the pay-for-military power) since you have 2 REBEL military worlds supporting that?

Of course not. No takeover is being performed. IFF "can be combined with takeover powers" (TBoW, page 13); this does not mean that "takeover powers modify IFF's non-takeover use." You have the causality backwards.
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Robert
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IMO if you are allowed to use ICT to conquer RC as military rebel world from your hand with Imperium troops, then it should also be possible to discard IIF to take it over with IS.
 
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Tom Lehmann
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umbaci wrote:
IMO if you are allowed to use ICT to conquer RC as military rebel world from your hand with Imperium troops, then it should also be possible to discard IIF to take it over with IS.

You are allowed to do (see above), as long as the RC empire has put out at least one Rebel military world (to make itself vulnerable to IS).

Otherwise, RC is operating "underground"... in that case, you need a Casus Belli to attack your neighboring empire...
 
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Kevin Bracey
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umbaci wrote:
IMO if you are allowed to use ICT to conquer RC as military rebel world from your hand with Imperium troops, then it should also be possible to discard IIF to take it over with IS.


You can discard Imperial Invasion Fleet to take over Rebel Cantina with Imperium Seat.

But to attempt a takeover you have to pass the vulnerability test.

I guess you could argue it in terms of ordering - you have to pass the vulnerability test before you attempt the takeover, but Imperial Invasion Fleet's power isn't invoked until takeover resolution.

So you can't use it to create vulnerability.
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Robert
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Thanks for the clarification!
 
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J P
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I like such corner cases that, when reading the rules, make perfect sense.

I also like how with BoW, takeovers have become more important and a serious factor in considerations.

In my games of RvI, takeovers occurred so sparsely that I almost never made considerations of the type "If I play this military world now, then my opponent might later on gain a takeover power and steal it from me". Doing so and choosing to play the safer route at a small cost of e.g. card advantage, production/consumption capacity, trade possibilities was usually not worth it.

In BoW things changed massively. Not only are there more and more dangerous takeover powers (e.g. ICB doesn't require the victim's tableau to produce positive military), but you can expend your search to dig up a takeover power. I now find myself way more interested in what my opponents are doing militarily as I used to be in RvI times. Lots of military on other tableaus used to mean "likelihood of settle being called is increased". Not it means "Better watch out what worlds you settle".

I like this "new" element in RtfG. I also like the tingling rush of mischievousness, when I'm ahead militarily and could use my search to find one of the takeover powers (even though it rarely provides a real advantage).
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