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Sid Meier's Civilization: The Board Game» Forums » Strategy

Subject: Shutting Down Economic Victory? rss

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Calavera Soñando
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The consensus forming in our games is that it is almost too easy to get an economic victory, since more than half of the coins gathered come as passive/additional actions that occur during the City Management phase - so a player can build up their cities, or bloat their figures or armies in response to a military threat, and keep pace with tech and still have 6-8 coins by the fifth or sixth turn.

How are you keeping the corporate pigs down in your games?
 
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Patrick S.
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So far, we have been playing by the rules. I'm interested in trying out the suggestion of making some of the cards that get coins limited to 3 uses instead of 4 - Seems like a simple change.
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Andrew DiGregorio
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ive played 3 times now and there has been an economic win every time so far. it honestly seems unstopable, unless i decided to change my whole playstyle just to foil someone winning that way.

i'd be very interested to hear how limiting the amount of times you get coins on cards from 4 to 3 would work. sounds pretty good to me.
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Matt Mehlhoff
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slyde wrote:
i'd be very interested to hear how limiting the amount of times you get coins on cards from 4 to 3 would work. sounds pretty good to me.


I agree that this may help.

We've only seen one economic victory out of the 7 times I've played it but that's only because no one seems to try for the economic victory (not easy for newbs to figure out because they have to think of all the different ways to get coins) but I do agree it's too easy because it's so hard to stop.
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Daniel Hammond
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Try my variant:

http://boardgamegeek.com/filepage/63920/daniels-enriching-cu...

Please .
 
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Robert Schwartz
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MScrivner wrote:
How are you keeping the corporate pigs down in your games?

You can't.

Various folks have proposed variant rules to deal with this inherent game imbalance. More popular seems to be "Techs that accumulate coins max at 3 instead of 4". However, I for one simply propose to eliminate the coin victory altogether, and play with only the remaining three.
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Calavera Soñando
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Xaxyx wrote:
MScrivner wrote:
How are you keeping the corporate pigs down in your games?

You can't.

Various folks have proposed variant rules to deal with this inherent game imbalance. More popular seems to be "Techs that accumulate coins max at 3 instead of 4". However, I for one simply propose to eliminate the coin victory altogether, and play with only the remaining three.


So the consensus is that it's unstoppable? Attacking secondary cities won't help? Nuking? Killing great persons or blowing up banks?
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John Anderson
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slyde wrote:
i'd be very interested to hear how limiting the amount of times you get coins on cards from 4 to 3 would work. sounds pretty good to me.
This seems like it might make it near-impossible to get an economic victory, but I haven't crunched the numbers.
 
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Daniel Hammond
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puck71 wrote:
slyde wrote:
i'd be very interested to hear how limiting the amount of times you get coins on cards from 4 to 3 would work. sounds pretty good to me.
This seems like it might make it near-impossible to get an economic victory, but I haven't crunched the numbers.


To answer both questions:

With 3 coins on each coin tech would give you 12 points. In a single turn you could build 3 banks and win. You could also find some great people (although I would put them in your capital so they can't be nuked). Obviously there is still the Panama canal and coins on the board and coins other people have you can steal with Scouts.
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Stephen Stewart
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dlhammond wrote:
puck71 wrote:
slyde wrote:
i'd be very interested to hear how limiting the amount of times you get coins on cards from 4 to 3 would work. sounds pretty good to me.
This seems like it might make it near-impossible to get an economic victory, but I haven't crunched the numbers.


To answer both questions:

With 3 coins on each coin tech would give you 12 points. In a single turn you could build 3 banks and win. You could also find some great people (although I would put them in your capital so they can't be nuked). Obviously there is still the Panama canal and coins on the board and coins other people have you can steal with Scouts.



I can only assume you speak in general terms regarding people in your Capital, as it is limited to only 1 person.

However, What would be the point in all of the technologies for Coinage if you can't win an economic victory?

Also, Have you tried winning any other way???
If you build up your cities to produce CULTURE, The culture adds up very quickly. If you see someone climbing towards economic you must attack his resources/cities/etc.

AND, if it's the easiest way to win, WHY AREN'T YOU DOING IT AS WELL????


The only victory I haven't seen (4 player games only played) is a TECH WIN.

I think this would occur only if all the players aren't doing ANYTHING to one another (i.e. EURO-gaming) and letting the others complete techs as they go. In this instance I can only see the RUSSIANS pulling out a Victory as they can obtain 2 techs per turn...So what do you do here, NOT PLAY with the Russians? That's silly.

If you can't beat em JOIN EM. There are plenty of other games out there (GOA) which have broken VP tracks on them to achieve an easier win. I think lessening the Techs To 3 coins makes it wayyy to hard...Since all of the ECONOMIC strategy player's resources are going to COIN and not building up a SOLID MILITARY defense.



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Damon Mosier
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ASLChampion wrote:
dlhammond wrote:
puck71 wrote:
slyde wrote:
i'd be very interested to hear how limiting the amount of times you get coins on cards from 4 to 3 would work. sounds pretty good to me.
This seems like it might make it near-impossible to get an economic victory, but I haven't crunched the numbers.


To answer both questions:

With 3 coins on each coin tech would give you 12 points. In a single turn you could build 3 banks and win. You could also find some great people (although I would put them in your capital so they can't be nuked). Obviously there is still the Panama canal and coins on the board and coins other people have you can steal with Scouts.



I can only assume you speak in general terms regarding people in your Capital, as it is limited to only 1 person.

However, What would be the point in all of the technologies for Coinage if you can't win an economic victory?

Also, Have you tried winning any other way???
If you build up your cities to produce CULTURE, The culture adds up very quickly. If you see someone climbing towards economic you must attack his resources/cities/etc.

AND, if it's the easiest way to win, WHY AREN'T YOU DOING IT AS WELL????


The only victory I haven't seen (4 player games only played) is a TECH WIN.

I think this would occur only if all the players aren't doing ANYTHING to one another (i.e. EURO-gaming) and letting the others complete techs as they go. In this instance I can only see the RUSSIANS pulling out a Victory as they can obtain 2 techs per turn...So what do you do here, NOT PLAY with the Russians? That's silly.

If you can't beat em JOIN EM. There are plenty of other games out there (GOA) which have broken VP tracks on them to achieve an easier win. I think lessening the Techs To 3 coins makes it wayyy to hard...Since all of the ECONOMIC strategy player's resources are going to COIN and not building up a SOLID MILITARY defense.





Quick answer: because he doesn't want to.

Nor should anyone have to resort to aping their opponents strategies in order to win themselves. That isn't the question. The question was how to counter that strategy, not surrender to it.
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Daniel Hammond
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ASLChampion wrote:

I can only assume you speak in general terms regarding people in your Capital, as it is limited to only 1 person.

However, What would be the point in all of the technologies for Coinage if you can't win an economic victory?

Also, Have you tried winning any other way???
If you build up your cities to produce CULTURE, The culture adds up very quickly. If you see someone climbing towards economic you must attack his resources/cities/etc.

AND, if it's the easiest way to win, WHY AREN'T YOU DOING IT AS WELL????


The only victory I haven't seen (4 player games only played) is a TECH WIN.

I think this would occur only if all the players aren't doing ANYTHING to one another (i.e. EURO-gaming) and letting the others complete techs as they go. In this instance I can only see the RUSSIANS pulling out a Victory as they can obtain 2 techs per turn...So what do you do here, NOT PLAY with the Russians? That's silly.

If you can't beat em JOIN EM. There are plenty of other games out there (GOA) which have broken VP tracks on them to achieve an easier win. I think lessening the Techs To 3 coins makes it wayyy to hard...Since all of the ECONOMIC strategy player's resources are going to COIN and not building up a SOLID MILITARY defense.


I try not to speak out of ignorance. But since that is how you kick off... There is no limit for great people in each city. 1 stared building, 1 wonder and buildings are limited by terrain and quantity.

The point is it is WAY too easy to win an economic victory. And you can do it without neglecting your tech and military.

I have tried winning other ways but if you even dabble in coins you won't make it to the other victory conditions (unless someone leaves their capital undefended).

How does winning battles, spending culture points, spending trade you don't need for tech and throwing away a few resources take away from building up your military? Fact is that it doesn't, which is exactly the point.

As for your Euro-gaming comment, you can't take away coins on tech, so I can get 16 coins and there is NOTHING you can do about it (short of destroying me militarily and I don't neglect my military). I can destroy your military, I can destroy your cities (culture and trade generation), but you can't do anything to erase one of my coins from my tech cards.
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Timothy Pride
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Coin is unblockable, yes. But not unhinderable. This is a race game, if you can hinder them enough while you win before, that's the way.

This has been going on and on before. But actually you just need to make an extra effort. Harass them from start. The threshold is 8.

I repeat, the threshold is 8.
Once again, the threshold is 8.

You can only hinder them before they reach 8 coins. Once they reach that, your turns are numbered (usually 2-3 turns). When they reach 8 coins, make sure you can win in 1-2 turns. That's it. Not easy, but doable. Especially if you get help from other players.

If all else fails, just try to win military. Just look at the weakest player (not always the coin player). Trickier, but if done right, is more effective than coin.
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Daniel Hammond
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dlhammond wrote:

To answer both questions:

With 3 coins on each coin tech would give you 12 points. In a single turn you could build 3 banks and win. You could also find some great people (although I would put them in your capital so they can't be nuked). Obviously there is still the Panama canal and coins on the board and coins other people have you can steal with Scouts.


Ah yes I also left out Feudalism, Computers and Metal Casting. That takes you to 15 with techs and government without counting a single great person, bank or any other coin mechanism.
 
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Mike Bertucelli
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Where dose it say you are limited to one great person per city?
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I don't know that economic victory is the "easiest" way to win, but if left unhindered it is most definitely the fastest, and as Daniel argues it is probably the most difficult to hinder. I have seen economic victories in under 10 turns. I don't believe I can say the same for any other victory type.
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Banjo John
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We have so far only played twice, one time with 3 players and one time with 4. Both times I´ve won with military victory. I agree that Economic victory might be a bit more complex to achieve (ie. not for beginners).
 
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Daniel Hammond
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banjojohn wrote:
We have so far only played twice, one time with 3 players and one time with 4. Both times I´ve won with military victory. I agree that Economic victory might be a bit more complex to achieve (ie. not for beginners).


It doesn't matter what victory condition I have gone for, I always dabble in coins, because it gives you more trade for almost nothing. You are going to kill villages why not get Code of Laws first? Democracy lets you spend trade you don't need for your tech into future trade. Printing Press lets you turn 1 incense into another coin (with Metal Working Casting which is another coin). Turn huts into more coins with Pottery (or build a trade city with a resource). With that get Military Science to increase your production and Computers to give you even more military strength and oops game is over.

I have won other than economic victory, but only because I was in control of the game, not because the other victory were easier. When I tried to win with culture I refused to neglect other aspects of the game (because then you can be beaten), and in the end I was closer to economic, tech and military than I was to the end of the culture track (it ended up being tech victory).
 
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Robert Schwartz
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MScrivner wrote:
So the consensus is that it's unstoppable? Attacking secondary cities won't help? Nuking? Killing great persons or blowing up banks?

I wouldn't deign to speak on behalf of any sort of consensus. Having watched this forum somewhat closely, however, I do feel comfortable in asserting that there are more or less two camps: a large group of folks who all have come to the reluctant conclusion that economic victory is horrifically broken and effectively impossible to directly counter; and a slightly smaller group of folks who absolutely deny that this is even a remote possibility.

Strangely, the first camp seems to be comprised of folks who are calm, patient, and provide reasoned thought processes behind their independently reached conclusions. The people in the second camp are more excitable, prone to emotional outburst, and respond to requests for rational analysis backing their claims with insults and derision.

Coincidence, perhaps.
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John Anderson
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Hobiecat wrote:
Where dose it say you are limited to one great person per city?
It doesn't.
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Michael Wilson
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I think the easiest fix is to up the victory threshold, maybe 18-20 coins.

It would take some testing to get the number right, but I think it's the most elegant solution, and doesn't require changing any cards.
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Chris J Davis
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doctheweasel wrote:
I think the easiest fix is to up the victory threshold, maybe 18-20 coins.

It would take some testing to get the number right, but I think it's the most elegant solution, and doesn't require changing any cards.


Agreed. In the game we played, 18 coins seemed about right.
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Calavera Soñando
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ASLChampion wrote:
AND, if it's the easiest way to win, WHY AREN'T YOU DOING IT AS WELL????



Whoa there, Mr. Angry font.

I have won with an economic victory. Twice. Indeed, it was my early economic victories (in turn 10ish) that brought about the discussions of balance. I like the game enough that I just thought I would ask on here if there were some thoughts or suggestions about balancing things from players who've played the game more times than I have.
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Andrew DiGregorio
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ASLChampion wrote:

AND, if it's the easiest way to win, WHY AREN'T YOU DOING IT AS WELL????



Honestly, because turning the game into a race to see who gets their coins first would be ZERO fun for me.

It really SHOULDN'T devolve into that type of game, imo.

As i said before, in my (limited) plays so far, i would love to try it next time with either reducing coin-gaining capacity, or upping the win amount.
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Daniel Hammond
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ASLChampion wrote:

AND, if it's the easiest way to win, WHY AREN'T YOU DOING IT AS WELL????




By that strategy advice the best way to play Tic-Tac-Toe is to go first and you should always try to be the first player so as to maximize your chance of winning.
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