She-Hulk
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We played tonight and I was the Keeper. I made the above choices and at one point the Investigators found "Clue 4B" and "Nola's Journal" and went to the Attic Loft before the Kitchen ("Clue 4B" is ambiguous about which to go to first). Jenny Barnes had the Journal and had to discard it b/c of the "Irregular Wall" Obstacle. Both the "Irregular Wall" and "Nola's Journal" say to discard "Nola's Journal" to get rid of "Irregular Wall."

However, 1A's objective card states that the investigators win when they destroy the "Black Book." The "Black Book" states that the investigator who has the "Black Book" may take an Action -- IF s/he also has the "Alien Statue" -- to test Lore -3. If s/he succeeds, the "Black Book" is destroyed. The "Alien Statue" is in the Kitchen Storage, which is protected by a "Spectral Guardian," which requires "Nola's Journal" to pass through.

So, basically, if the investigators get "Nola's Journal" and then go to the Attic first (where they will lose "Nola's Journal") before going to the Kitchen (where they need "Nola's Journal," to get the "Alien Statue" to destroy the "Black Book" to eventually win) they will find themselves unable to win. That seems like an enormous oversight.

We solved the situation by amending the "Irregular Wall" Obstacle to say that the investigator who encountered it needed "Nola's Journal" to discard it. This preserved the semi-non-linear nature of exploration (i.e. Investigators could go to either the Attic Loft or the Kitchen Storage first) but kept the storyline -- and the ability for the investigators to win -- intact. It makes it harder on the investigators if they go to the Attic Loft first but it's not a game ender for them.
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Juha Kettunen
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We have played Season of the Witch only once but exactly the same thing happened to us.

We didn't change anything, but since the Keeper was unable to achieve his objective either, the session ended in a (unsatisfying) draw. It was the first one, too; either the Keeper or the investigators have always won the basic game scenarios.

This is obviously a glaring design bug in Season of the Witch.
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Rauli Kettunen
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greek2me wrote:
So, basically, if the investigators get "Nola's Journal" and then go to the Attic first (where they will lose "Nola's Journal") before going to the Kitchen (where they need "Nola's Journal," to get the "Alien Statue" to destroy the "Black Book" to eventually win) they will find themselves unable to win. That seems like an enormous oversight.


Since Clue 4 points them toward Clue 3 and thus the Alien Statue, if the investigators want to screw around and manage to lose Nola's Journal, they cost the win purely by their own actions, they deserve to lose (Keeper can still win by killing off all investigators). Those investigators with items gained at the same time as Clues (meaning critical to the progress for finding more Clues/winning) should stick to going for the next Clue, not bouncing off script.

Spoiler (click to reveal)
No different than bashing a monster with Crowbar in Blood Ties (scenario 3) and destroying it before they use it to open the Manhole Cover.
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She-Hulk
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Dam the Man wrote:
greek2me wrote:
So, basically, if the investigators get "Nola's Journal" and then go to the Attic first (where they will lose "Nola's Journal") before going to the Kitchen (where they need "Nola's Journal," to get the "Alien Statue" to destroy the "Black Book" to eventually win) they will find themselves unable to win. That seems like an enormous oversight.


Since Clue 4 points them toward Clue 3 and thus the Alien Statue, if the investigators want to screw around and manage to lose Nola's Journal, they cost the win purely by their own actions, they deserve to lose (Keeper can still win by killing off all investigators). Those investigators with items gained at the same time as Clues (meaning critical to the progress for finding more Clues/winning) should stick to going for the next Clue, not bouncing off script.

Spoiler (click to reveal)
No different than bashing a monster with Crowbar in Blood Ties (scenario 3) and destroying it before they use it to open the Manhole Cover.


Right, but my contention is that Clue 4 mentions both the Attic and the Kitchen. They weren't just wandering around. They thought they were going the right way.
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Rauli Kettunen
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To me, looking at the Clue, that just means they weren't paying attention. There is an early mention of the attic, but then Nola's last entry reads:

"...so she hid it in the pantry."

EDIT: Had "hit" instead of "hid" first laugh .
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Juha Kettunen
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greek2me wrote:

Right, but my contention is that Clue 4 mentions both the Attic and the Kitchen. They weren't just wandering around. They thought they were going the right way.


Not to mention that the investigators can split up and attempt both at the same time. That's what mine did (but they kind of changed their minds before they reached the kitchen).
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Darrell Pavitt
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Dam the Man wrote:
To me, looking at the Clue, that just means they weren't paying attention. There is an early mention of the attic, but then Nola's last entry reads:

"...so she hid it in the pantry."

EDIT: Had "hit" instead of "hid" first laugh .


Maybe not, but there is no physical reason for discarding the book to remove the obstacle. As such, just allow them to retain the book. Its not as if it has any special powers that will unbalance the game.
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Rauli Kettunen
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nyhotep wrote:
Maybe not, but there is no physical reason for discarding the book to remove the obstacle. As such, just allow them to retain the book. Its not as if it has any special powers that will unbalance the game.


Maybe the Irregular Wall needs the Journal added to it to make it regular ?

Allowing them to retain the journal, it's no different than what is going on in the PBF game and sharing of the Password, I personally wouldn't let it fly, RAW doesn't allow sharing (or keeping of the journal), so no sharing. Also allows them to make critical plot-related errors and let off the hook when it was all their own fault in the first place.
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Ger Lam
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Dam the Man wrote:
nyhotep wrote:
Maybe not, but there is no physical reason for discarding the book to remove the obstacle. As such, just allow them to retain the book. Its not as if it has any special powers that will unbalance the game.


Maybe the Irregular Wall needs the Journal added to it to make it regular ?

Allowing them to retain the journal, it's no different than what is going on in the PBF game and sharing of the Password, I personally wouldn't let it fly, RAW doesn't allow sharing (or keeping of the journal), so no sharing. Also allows them to make critical plot-related errors and let off the hook when it was all their own fault in the first place.


ya, but the problem i see is that this _IS_ a game.

If a player finds a key, and another player finds a lock the key fits into, their first instinct is to unlock the door with the key. especially if they are "trained"(pawlow would be proud) by the game that the setup is "lock, clue, key for next lock" in a sequence changed only by locations depending on setup choices.

In other words, if they know about or find the irregular wall before the spectral guardian, it's a players reasonable understanding that the journal is to be used to pass the irregular wall.

Later finding out that BEFORE doing that, you'd need to have passed the spectral guardian, otherwise you lose, is quite a slap into the players phase...because the journal "is" obviously a unlocking item, and using it as such, only in the wrong location, should not be penalized by a instant-loss.

So just let them keep the journal and only discard the wall. If you want them "penalized", have the journal mysteriously disappear and reappear where they first found it. Some backtracking necessary, but not instant-loss.

Agreed on Scenario 3 crowbar though...never knew it was a discard-weapon though, my players instinctively held on to it for opening goodness.
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Martin Thorold
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I originally thought what everyone else here seems to have thought - but if you read the Spectral Guard card closely it does say "If you have "Nola's Journal" you may discard this card" - I think the card it's referring to as discarding is actually the Spectral Guard card itself and not the Nola's Journal card. Compare this to "Irregular Wall" card which says "Discard "Nola's Journal" to discard this obstacle"...

I agree it's not clear and should have been worded better but it's the only interpretation that makes the game playable..
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Henry Armitage
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I've played SoTW tonight. There is another problem. I choosed 1B,2A,3A,4A. The investigators found clue 4 and the journal, then they gone to the room with the irregular walls and they found clue 2, without finding clue 3! Is that possible?
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Rauli Kettunen
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Raffo83 wrote:
I've played SoTW tonight. There is another problem. I choosed 1B,2A,3A,4A. The investigators found clue 4 and the journal, then they gone to the room with the irregular walls and they found clue 2, without finding clue 3! Is that possible?


Looking at the setup, I think it is. However, that's another case of investigator stupidity in my book.
Spoiler (click to reveal)
Why on earth would you go to Storage Shed when Clue 4 is pointing you toward the Bathroom? Much less with the "key" you get with Clue 4?
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Raistlin
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EDIT: I understood only now that Clue 3 is optional in this scenario (it is only really necessary for scenario 1A); so the fix proposed by Patrick Ross is the best one I think.
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S. R.
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I think this situation does not need a fix.
Yes, there is some vagueness in the scenario as the players can find clue 2 before clue 3. But this is exactly what makes this scenario so interesting - it is not as linear as the others, because there is, as has been said above, an "optional" item there.

It is only non-optional for Objective 1A.

And this is where the story-character of the game comes in.
Yes, MoM is a tactical (or strategic? I'm never sure when to use which) game, and sets the Keeper vs. the Players. Yes, every decision counts. Yes, the mechanics are very important.

But the game is, at its inception (not its core, mind you), a STORY-DRIVEN game. And (CAREFUL, from here on THERE BE SPOILERS!!!!!) both
Spoiler (click to reveal)
clues 4A and 4B very clearly state where the needed item is hidden! And if the investigators follow the clues, then they will not make the mistake of discarding the Journal first!

If they, however, jump to conclusions at the first hint of something that COULD lead to another clue (or, well, in this case, IS another clue), not minding the story, they get what is coming to them.
And, to my mind, rightfully so. Especially, if the yet NON-MENTIONED location sports a card that says
Spoiler (click to reveal)
"Discard an IMPORTANT item MENTIONED in the story".


Now, you could say that the game should not be lost because of ONE mistake, or ONE wrong decision. However, this decision does not arise out of the blue, with no help at all. It is guided by the story.
On the other hand, one wrong decision can in many instances lead to the defeat of the players. Taking too much time to search is a decision. Not fighting the monsters that are crucial for winning is a decision. Taking unfitting investigators is a decision. To let a character die is a decision, etc.

But I will never sway those of you who argue based on JUST the tactics, or the mechanic. On the other hand, I don't intend to. For me, it needs no fix at all. And I will never aply one here. For you, it still might...

Spoiler (click to reveal)
On the other hand, if you have problems with this arbitrary situation, what about the killer lock? You wander somewhere, try to get into a strange room, and BOOM - you're dead.

I like it. A lot. Because it includes the randomness of the background - the Mythos. Because you don't go looking into things that you have no business poking into. Also, not following the path that the clues lay out for you, and wasting time with other things means here that you have to face the consequences. And if you don't do it during the finale with Objective 1B, then all is not lost. Even then, there is still a chance.
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Raistlin
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The italian version of the game has been corrected in translation, so I think it was identified as an error in the end.
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Nuno Costa
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RaistlinMajere wrote:
The italian version of the game has been corrected in translation, so I think it was identified as an error in the end.


Can you be more specific on what correction was made?
Thx
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Bryant Browning
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Loht wrote:
RaistlinMajere wrote:
The italian version of the game has been corrected in translation, so I think it was identified as an error in the end.


Can you be more specific on what correction was made?
Thx

Was this really never clarified? Can somebody please tell me if this was ever fixed and how?
 
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Alex Uhde
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martinthorold wrote:
if you read the Spectral Guard card closely it does say "If you have "Nola's Journal" you may discard this card" - I think the card it's referring to as discarding is actually the Spectral Guard card itself and not the Nola's Journal card. Compare this to "Irregular Wall" card which says "Discard "Nola's Journal" to discard this obstacle"...


The german version reads the same. You need to discard Nola's Diary to remove the Irregular Wall card. You just need to "have" Nola's Diary to remove the Spectral Guard.
 
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