As long as I've politically aware, I've been broadly supportive of the aims of feminism without ever worrying myself about the details or indeed about the effects that feminists catalogue of discrimination on the lives of women. "This is bad", I would think. "Something ought to be done". But in terms of actually doing anything well, I left that to the feminists.
Since becoming a father to first one, then two, daughters, this perception has slowly changed. As I read "girls" books with them, or play "girls" toys with them or watch "girls" TV with them I have become aware, and saddened by the subtle way in which these things diminish the expectations and lives of little girls. There are few enough stories and stereotypes that feature females as the main characters. And when so many of them that are ostensibly about girls actually end up carrying the implicit message that what they should be worrying about is how their actions end up affecting the men in their lives, what hope is there for them to grow into strong, independent young women?
This makes me very sad. I've tried to treat it in a sensible fashion. Alongside the Disney things and traditional toys that they desire I do a little research and try to ensure that at least some of the things they get to play with have more central, adventurous female role models. Push it too far, start banning stuff, and you run the danger of bringing them up as social freaks or, worse, making them hate the messages that you're trying to get them to take notice of.
As I've slowly grown into this realisation it's struck me that more and more men who have daughters - especially those who, like me, have no sons to dilute their attention - must notice the same thing. It's not like it requires a massive level of perception of intelligence to distil - it's obvious once you, as a man, get exposed to all these "girls" things that you'd probably never otherwise notice or hear about. And so it made me wonder why it was that more and more middle-aged men aren't, as a result, sticking up for at least the moderate sections of the feminist cause, aren't helping the women to make a fuss about this stuff, get it noticed.
I was listening to the radio this morning, to a segment about stalkers who are almost inevitably men stalking, threatening, damaging both psychologically and physically, women, when the answer struck me. The reason is because a lot of fathers accept this stuff. They think it's right and good and proper that their little girls grow up to be attendant to the needs and desires of men, and to put those needs and desire secondary to their own, believing that the men will handle things for them, and handle them better, just because they're men.
That realisation has made me feel quite profoundly depressed.
men aren't [...] sticking up for at least the moderate sections of the feminist cause
Feminism is fine, but there's the problem with equality. When people say they want want equality they usually don't really want equality, they want an advantage.
Let your girls play with the toys they want to play with, and encourage them to make their own decisions. If Barbie isn't pretty enough for Ken, then discuss with them whether that's a problem with Barbie or a problem with Ken. I'm not talking major philosophical discussions here, just opening the door to the idea that people should be treated as equals.
I like to exchange ideas but I have no interest in a pissing contest.
If you want me to review your game, just GM me and send me a copy. Abstracts, wargames and euros equally welcome. No party or dexterity games please.
My wife and I try as much as possible to avoid gendered stuff for our daughter (so far our only child) because we figure she'll get far too much of that kind of social programming as is. All the clothing, even many of the toys, for girls are pink, pink. For clothes, we tend to go out of our way to find clothes that a gender neutral and neither girl-pink nor boy-blue. We have some pink stuff, especially what we've been given; in part it's virtually impossible to avoid.
Our best advantage is living in a community where people do not own TVs almost universally, where popular magazines, music, etc., are highly uncommon and where the advertising tends not to show women. Sadly it goes to the opposite extreme but that's a different issue.
I accepted a long time ago that I'm going to have to really work hard to avoid having my daughter pushed into a gender stereotype.
On the other hand, gender stereotypes work in the opposite direction, too.
Men are expected to work hard, 'be the breadwinner', tough, macho, never show feelings, like cars and trucks and sports and racing, etc.
And while it's certainly possible to buck the stereotypes, it does severely limit your options with the opposite sex when you grow up (to, sometimes, almost no chance of a successful relationship at all), since everyone else in your gender acts in the stereotyped way. Ultimately, you probably end up forgetting the problem with stereotypes you learned as a kid and figure out how to play along.
Not saying it's wrong to be bothered by stereotypes, but simply pointing out that if you are...oooof...you've got a long road ahead of you...
I like to exchange ideas but I have no interest in a pissing contest.
If you want me to review your game, just GM me and send me a copy. Abstracts, wargames and euros equally welcome. No party or dexterity games please.
XanderF wrote:
On the other hand, gender stereotypes work in the opposite direction, too.
Men are expected to work hard, 'be the breadwinner', tough, macho, never show feelings, like cars and trucks and sports and racing, etc.
And while it's certainly possible to buck the stereotypes, it does severely limit your options with the opposite sex when you grow up (to, sometimes, almost no chance of a successful relationship at all), since everyone else in your gender acts in the stereotyped way. Ultimately, you probably end up forgetting the problem with stereotypes you learned as a kid and figure out how to play along.
Not saying it's wrong to be bothered by stereotypes, but simply pointing out that if you are...oooof...you've got a long road ahead of you...
Yes and no.
It depends on one's priorities. If the priority is to gt someone, anyone, then yes. If the priority is to find someone who is a good fit, then no.
Since becoming a father to first one, then two, daughters, this perception has slowly changed. As I read "girls" books with them, or play "girls" toys with them or watch "girls" TV with them I have become aware, and saddened by the subtle way in which these things diminish the expectations and lives of little girls. There are few enough stories and stereotypes that feature females as the main characters. And when so many of them that are ostensibly about girls actually end up carrying the implicit message that what they should be worrying about is how their actions end up affecting the men in their lives, what hope is there for them to grow into strong, independent young women?
It always hits me when I'm watching a movie, especially older ones, and there's just no females to identify with at all.
And when so many of them that are ostensibly about girls actually end up carrying the implicit message that what they should be worrying about is how their actions end up affecting the men in their lives,
Funny, I think the problem isn't that girls are taught this, I think the problem is that boys aren't taught this nearly enough. Namely they should be taught to worry about how their actions end up affecting the women (and children) in their lives.
Feminism is fine, but there's the problem with equality. When people say they want want equality they usually don't really want equality, they want an advantage.
Let your girls play with the toys they want to play with, and encourage them to make their own decisions. If Barbie isn't pretty enough for Ken, then discuss with them whether that's a problem with Barbie or a problem with Ken. I'm not talking major philosophical discussions here, just opening the door to the idea that people should be treated as equals.
This is exactly the sort of ideas that it is natural that people like me, a healthy, white, young male have when looking at discrimination. We understand it in abstract, therefore we support it lukewarm; we support feminism, but we don't want women to enjoy advantages over men, because that's just as bad.
Truth is, we have never been in the receiving end of that sort of discrimination. As Matt says, the amount of crap that we let go because we are culturally used to it is astonishing. Extra action is needed because the plating field is so uneven that if we play by the same rules, we win every time. We have to stop to think about them as discriminated against, and start thinking about ourselves as privileged.
There are movies presenting positive female role models for little girls, if younlook. I have no daughters, so I wonder instead about why there are so many men on TV that seem to be intellectually inadequate.
RE: There are movies presenting positive female role models for little girls, if younlook. I have no daughters, so I wonder instead about why there are so many men on TV that seem to be intellectually inadequate.
I am stunned with your comment. Obviously, you have missed the point of this piece completely. In fact even the writer should have provided the following visual demonstartional evidence for the viewers perusal.
I suggest you view the trailer known as MissRepresentation. It can be seen as a 3 or 8 minute video at the following link. Perhaps this will open your eyes to the point! http://vimeo.com/28066212.
If the link is not accepted here - google 'video for MissRepresentation' - every father of boys or girls needs to see it! Every teacher needs to make sure this is seens by young people. Get it in your colleges, Libraries and high Schools.
Feminism is fine, but there's the problem with equality. When people say they want want equality they usually don't really want equality, they want an advantage.
Interesting observation. Usually, when I hear this I imagine that the person saying it is afraid of their losing their own advantage.
Beyond that... I'd say, let women rule the world. I'd go as far to say make it illegal for men to hold office. We've seen a few millennial of this bullshit, men are obviously the problem.
As the father of two young daughters, it has also struck me how the stereotypes are pushed from such a young age - my soon-to-be 6 year old loves adventure stories, dragons, pirates and fantasy, but such toys, books etc are almost always packaged and targeted at boys. While the equivalent 'girls' stories/toys are largely centred round passive role models such as Hello Kitty, Barbie, Bratz etc.
Interestingly, Disney are doing their bit to promote strong female leads - Tangled's Rapunzel and Princess and the Frog's Tiana are strong, adventurous, inspiring yet still feminine characters that create positive role models, a far cry from Snow White, Sleeping Beauty et al. But even then the ultimate goal is to get married.
Truth is, we have never been in the receiving end of that sort of discrimination. As Matt says, the amount of crap that we let go because we are culturally used to it is astonishing. Extra action is needed because the plating field is so uneven that if we play by the same rules, we win every time. We have to stop to think about them as discriminated against, and start thinking about ourselves as privileged.
Yes, this idea of privilege as a social phenomenon is relatively new to me, but I find it very valuable in understanding the precise nature of many of the seemingly minor complaints of victims of discrimination. There's a good explanation here:
It always hits me when I'm watching a movie, especially older ones, and there's just no females to identify with at all.
I'm not sure about especially the older ones.
I look at the featured cast list (or whatever it's properly called) of every film I see. Typically that has around three major characters in the film - typically two men and one woman, but sometimes the reverse - and had a dozen other actors. And it's the latter that really sticks out. These are mostly roles whose gender is unimportant - they may be the cop, the dentist, the colleague, the bystander and so on. And five out of six men is not the exception, it's the norm.
What I'd like to see would be a process that goes something like: OK, it's a him and her film (of course that doesn't always have to be true either, but that's a different point). Then perhaps each has a best friend, and they work best as the same sex in this case. But after that, anything goes. An open audition for (say) the hotel manager. Could be male, could be female. Could be 25, could be 55. Could be in a wheelchair if the actor with the no-nonsense attitude the part needs happens to be in one. And so on. And then you can go back to the script and make any minor changes needed. This would actually make for better films regardless of any social value.
OK, now back to the world where the sky is blue ...
Hello, can you run as fast as me? I hope not, because if you catch me I will thrash you!
This space available for rent.
pronoblem wrote:
Beyond that... I'd say, let women rule the world. I'd go as far to say make it illegal for men to hold office. We've seen a few millennial of this bullshit, men are obviously the problem.
Maybe, but if women were that good at it, the Matriarchy would never have fallen to the Patriarchy in the first place. They totally squandered their lead.
As a maker of masks when I saw the film "King of Masks" recommended to me on Netflix I had to check it out. I knew nothing of the film... I thought it was amazing. Especially since the dilemma that you mention in the OP can be a life and death situation in China with girls being simply undesired, abandoned, aborted, sold into bondage... you got me thinking. I think I will share it with my four kids (three girls) this weekend.
I look at the featured cast list (or whatever it's properly called) of every film I see. Typically that has around three major characters in the film - typically two men and one woman, but sometimes the reverse - and had a dozen other actors. And it's the latter that really sticks out. These are mostly roles whose gender is unimportant - they may be the cop, the dentist, the colleague, the bystander and so on. And five out of six men is not the exception, it's the norm.
Ever hear of the Bechdel Test? It's a little set of rules that a feminist jokingly invented to measure the sexism quotient of films, but which got taken to heart by the community. Very simple. Does the film have at least two named female characters in it, who talk to one another about something other than men.
About 50% of films manage to pass it, which is pathetic given how simple it is. There's a list here: http://bechdeltest.com/
I look at the featured cast list (or whatever it's properly called) of every film I see. Typically that has around three major characters in the film - typically two men and one woman, but sometimes the reverse - and had a dozen other actors. And it's the latter that really sticks out. These are mostly roles whose gender is unimportant - they may be the cop, the dentist, the colleague, the bystander and so on. And five out of six men is not the exception, it's the norm.
Ever hear of the Bechdel Test? It's a little set of rules that a feminist jokingly invented to measure the sexism quotient of films, but which got taken to heart by the community. Very simple. Does the film have at least two named female characters in it, who talk to one another about something other than men.
About 50% of films manage to pass it, which is pathetic given how simple it is. There's a list here: http://bechdeltest.com/
No, this one is new to me. Thanks for the pointer.
Interestingly, Disney are doing their bit to promote strong female leads - Tangled's Rapunzel and Princess and the Frog's Tiana are strong, adventurous, inspiring yet still feminine characters that create positive role models, a far cry from Snow White, Sleeping Beauty et al. But even then the ultimate goal is to get married.
I haven't seen the movie, but in the Princess and the Frog video game, you run around in the swamp, cooking and cleaning for people, while the Prince is doing nothing but being sloppy and lazy in a charming way, and you have to look out for him.
