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Dominion: Alchemy» Forums » Rules

Subject: Golem and revealing cards rss

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Nick Knutsen
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I'm not thrilled about bringing this up, because I'm sure nobody plays it wrong, but in compiling my Dominion FAQ, this came up and I'm not sure how to resolve it. It's about the "rule" that you never actually move a card when you're revealing it, from here: http://boardgamegeek.com/article/7654839#7654839.

This means that a card revealed from your hand, never actually left your hand. This matters for cards like Secret Chamber, which can be revealed again in the famous Secret Chamber + Moat example from the Intrigue rule book.

But then I thought about Golem. This rule means that after revealing the two Action cards, before playing them, they're still in your deck. You've discarded all the other revealed cards, so no matter which one you play first, the other one is on top of your deck. If I hit a Smithy and a Remodel, I'll probably play the Smithy first. This means I'll draw the Remodel and two other cards!

Doesn't this mean that strictly speaking we have to add a clause to Golem about setting the two cards aside before playing them? (I realize that wouldn't be a great idea, because it makes it seem like the cards won't be played to the play area. But it would be strictly correct, which it isn't now as far as I can see.)
 
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Kenneth Stuart
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I guess the rules may be a bit wrong here. Consider it this way: Revealed cards are set aside and are not part of the play area until they are either played or placed back to the area (hand, deck, discard, etc) where they originated.

The actions you reveal with golem are NOT considered to be the top cards of your deck, nor are the cards that you had to reveal (and later discard) to reach those action cards.

If your two actions are Smithy and Remodel, your Smithy will not draw the remodel to your hand. Going from my explanation above, the Remodel is still in that side area for revealed cards until after the Smithy resolves.
 
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Jeff Wolfe
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When you Reveal cards from your deck, they are implicitly set aside. When you have Revealed all the cards from your deck and you need to Reveal more, you shuffle your discard pile to form a new deck. You couldn't form a new deck if you still had the old deck, so the Revealed cards must be set aside.
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Nick Knutsen
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wizcreations wrote:
I guess the rules may be a bit wrong here. Consider it this way: Revealed cards are set aside and are not part of the play area until they are either played or placed back to the area (hand, deck, discard, etc) where they originated.

The actions you reveal with golem are NOT considered to be the top cards of your deck, nor are the cards that you had to reveal (and later discard) to reach those action cards.

If your two actions are Smithy and Remodel, your Smithy will not draw the remodel to your hand. Going from my explanation above, the Remodel is still in that side area for revealed cards until after the Smithy resolves.

You're saying "play area", which is actually the area you place your played cards (not deck, discard or set-aside cards). But I see what you're saying.

I know if course that this is not how Golem is supposed to work. What I'm doing is compiling a list of complete rules, and I want them to be correct and consistent. And if it's a rule that revealed cards don't move anywhere, but stay where they are when you reveal them, then revealed cards from Golem are the top cards of your deck. You either have to redefine how revealing works, or how Golem works.
 
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Nick Knutsen
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jeffwolfe wrote:
When you Reveal cards from your deck, they are implicitly set aside. When you have Revealed all the cards from your deck and you need to Reveal more, you shuffle your discard pile to form a new deck. You couldn't form a new deck if you still had the old deck, so the Revealed cards must be set aside.

Quote from Donald in the post I linked to:

donaldx wrote:
So it's nothing specific to cards in your hand. Cards may be "set aside" and end up in a special "set aside" area, but revealing cards does not work like that, it only moves them in the sense that you have to physically reveal the card.


EDIT: I think the rules explains revealing (just like drawing) a number of cards from your deck like this: If there aren't enough cards in your deck, you reveal the cards you can, then you form a new deck from your discard pile, and reveal the rest. From this there's no conflict with the rule that the revealed cards stay in your deck.
 
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James Newton
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I suspect that the answer is that the cards are no longer revealed / in the Deck as part of the transition between the instruction to reveal them and play them. The text on Golem has two sentences, the latter of which has two distinct clauses. So if we take each instruction in turn:

Golem wrote:
Reveal cards from your deck until you reveal 2 Action cards other than Golem cards.

You do the revealing stuff, shuffling if necessary. At this point you have a number (somewhere between 2 and the size of your Deck) of revealed cards, which are all technically still in your Deck.

Golem wrote:
Discard the other cards,

You move the revealed non-Golem-non-Action cards from your Deck onto your Discard pile. These are no longer in your Deck (which I don't think anyone is disputing).

Golem wrote:
then play the Action cards in either order.

The instruction is to play (both) the Action cards, so both Action cards come out of the (revealed) Deck to be played. Neither card is now in your deck. But the cards are actually played (resolved) in one after the other. So one of two things happens. Either :-

(a) Both cards go into the Play area, but one is resolved after the other. You may object that playing a card includes moving it into the Play area, but that isn't always the case - Throne Room plays a card twice but only moves it into the Play area once; so Golem putting the second Action card into the Play area at the same time as the first but resolving playing it afterwards is not so dissimilar to Throne Room putting one card into the Play area once and resolving it twice.

(b) One card ends up implicitly set aside while the other card is in play first.

Since Golem does not say to set aside the cards, I lean towards (a) as the more correct interpretation; however (b) is how my group plays it in practice, and I suspect how others do as well.

Edit: to fix rubbish quoting
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Roberta Yang
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I think as written there is indeed a rules leak here (by a strict reading of the cards, the second Action should still be on top of the deck, so it could be drawn or milled by the first Action and then fail to be played due to the Lose Track rule), but that is also not how I or anyone I know has ever played, nor is it how Isotropic implements Golem.

I would favor interpretation (b) as being more likely to be the correct one. Golem is clear: you play the cards one at a time. The second card shouldn't be in play if it's not being played. Sure, Throne Room doesn't put the card into play a second time, but that's because it tries to but does nothing (because either the card is already in play or it can't find the card due to the Lose Track rule), not because putting a card into play is independent of playing it. For what it's worth (it is after all unofficial and therefore not a canonical source of rulings), Isotropic supports this interpretation; the second Action is not listed as being in play while the first Action is resolving.

(For those wondering why it matters whether (a) or (b) is the correct interpretation, consider the case where the two Actions that Golem hits are Black Market and Library, and the player's hand contains Horn of Plenty.)

EDIT: It's also worth noting that a lot of cards seem to be worded based on the assumption that a card revealed from the top of the deck is no longer on top of the deck. After all, if they never left the top of the deck in the first place, how can they be "put back" after use?
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Donald X.
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PunchBall wrote:
Doesn't this mean that strictly speaking we have to add a clause to Golem about setting the two cards aside before playing them? (I realize that wouldn't be a great idea, because it makes it seem like the cards won't be played to the play area. But it would be strictly correct, which it isn't now as far as I can see.)

I did not think to address digging cards in the linked post. Revealed Secret Chambers are still in your hand, but cards revealed for Golem are not still in your deck. I am probably never making a card that refers to general "set aside" cards, so it's probably safe to call them "set aside."

In your rules document you can probably safely generalize the "digging" cards: they set aside revealed non-matching cards into one area, revealed matching cards into a second area, and then finally do stuff with these cards as instructed.
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Nick Knutsen
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Thank you very much again for the prompt response! Don't you have like, games to develop or something? )

I hope you're okay with it if I just generalize the set-aside rule for all revealing/looking at cards from your deck, whether it's Adventurer or Scout or whatever. (Because I think you mean only "reveal until" cards when you say "digging" cards?) This will also mean that a wording I found about Cartographer (in the Tunnel FAQ) is correct, because it talks about cards being set aside due to Cartographer.

I think both these rules read very nicely, because for the casual reader not worrying about the corner cases, they just seam to explain (1) that your Reaction cards stay in your hand for later use, and (2) that you don't shuffle in your already-revealed cards when you shuffle to reveal more; while hopefully they'll also cover the corner cases.
 
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Michael Brandt
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Donald has used "digging" to refer to cards like Adventurer, where it "digs" for 2 Treasures, or Golem "digs" for 2 Action cards, so not exactly just revealing from the deck. (edit: and reading your post again I realize you had the right idea and weren't including Cartographer and Scout with the digging cards...oh well, enjoy the link below anyway)


The original post was on card complexity--Donald could have originally had the card Adventurer simply say "Dig for 2 Treasure cards, and put them in your hand," and then the term "dig" would have been well-defined in the rulebook. But since not many cards were ever going to use digging (offhand, I think it's around 10 or so to date), it wasn't really worth it to add the complexity of defining "dig." It was simpler to just spell it out on each card.
 
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