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Race for the Galaxy: The Brink of War» Forums » Rules

Subject: Takeovers vs Rebel Fuel Refinery rss

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Yao-ban Chan
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Here's a takeover corner case that I was unable to find a specific answer to:

I have Interstellar Casus Belli and 4 military (no pay-to-increase) and my opponent has Rebel Fuel Refinery, but no brown goods and 0 military (also no other pay-to-increase).

The same settle phase: He settles Rebel Convict Mines. I declare a takeover against Rebel Fuel Refinery. He consumes the windfall good on Convict Mines, using Fuel Refinery, to boost his military and prevent the takeover. I frown.

I argue that you can't use powers from newly settled worlds; he counters by pointing out that he used a power from an already settled world. I still think that the same rule should apply to goods drawn from a newly placed world, but we were playing with Keldon's program and it says otherwise.

I drop to 0 prestige and lose badly, but kingmake by stealing planets from the third player (an AI) later on

Who is right here? Is this legal?

(Edit: I cannot, off the top of my head, think of another card besides Rebel Fuel Refinery and Alien Booby Trap which could produce this interaction. Would any answer applying to RFR also apply to ABT and a newly placed world which gives prestige?)
 
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nishadham
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Near the bottom of page 2 of the BoW rulebook it says: "Prestige, goods, or cards gained from a card’s placement can be used in the phase it is placed (after paying for it or conquering it militarily)."

So the answer is yes, it's legal, you get the good/prestige as soon as the card's placed, and you can use it.

The designer himself answered this question a while ago, in this post
http://www.boardgamegeek.com/article/5172641#5172641
Tom Lehmann wrote:
Of course, that's one reason why the rule I quoted included "goods".

If you have Rebel Fuel Refinery (from a previous round), then you can use a brown good from a windfall world settled earlier in a Settle phase to pump your Military +2 prior to another settle action using Improved Logistics (or RSA).

All these cases are exactly the same, regardless of whether it's cards, goods, or prestige gained from the first settle.

This is not exactly the same case, but since the takeover step happens and is resolved *at the end* of the settle phase, you'd already have the brown good.
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Yao-ban Chan
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I stand corrected. Thanks!

(However, I agree with entranced from the other thread that it is counter-intuitive. In my insignificant opinion, Tom's explanation of it "feeling natural" to use goods and prestige gained from one settle for an IL settle in the same phase, while true, extends to using powers as well, except that that is specifically prevented. However, he is God and I... am not.)

The unfortunate part is that he also had a 2-cost Uplift world in play. I could have taken that over had I known this interaction - I saw the possibility but was convinced the good could not be used.
 
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Tom Lehmann
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Orntt wrote:
extends to using powers as well, except that that is specifically prevented

Far, far too many special rules cases involving "self-referential" powers would arise if this rule was relaxed. The added rules complexity is just not worth it.
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Yao-ban Chan
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Tom Lehmann wrote:
Orntt wrote:
extends to using powers as well, except that that is specifically prevented

Far, far too many special rules cases involving "self-referential" powers would arise if this rule was relaxed. The added rules complexity is just not worth it.


Out of curiousity, would the same (or some) level of breakage occur if the rule was tightened instead of relaxed? I.e. you don't get any effect from worlds just placed until end of phase, no goods, settle bonuses, worlds count, nothing. Maybe not so natural-feeling, but perhaps cleaner?

Also out of curiousity, could you give an example of the self-referential problems? I can easily envision a world with a Terraforming Guild/Engineers-type power causing confusion, but it doesn't inherently break the game and furthermore I don't think such a world exists (yet)...
 
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Tom Lehmann
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Orntt wrote:
would the same (or some) level of breakage occur if the rule was tightened instead of relaxed?

Doing this would be cleaner in some ways but uglier in others (as now you introduce minor memory issues around remembering first not to place goods, take cards, take prestige, etc. whenever Improved Logistics is in play for your first world until after your second one is placed and paid for and then remembering to take them for both; this is very unintuitive and a big change in how worlds are placed -- in TGS -- for little real effect, until takeovers are introduced in RvI).

Quote:
Also out of curiousity, could you give an example of the self-referential problems?

Simplest one is Investment Credits and Public Works. If the rule were that powers become active once a card is placed and paid for/conquered, then IC wouldn't work on itself (since IC hasn't been paid for yet), but PW would work on itself (since it has been paid for). Bleah.

(The timing on Interstellar Bank and similar powers, which many players are not precise about, would also matter more.)

That doesn't "break" the game, but it's definitely uglier than just saying new powers don't come into effect until the phase is complete.

More troublesome cases (some of which aren't self-referential) are things like Pan-Galactic Security Council. Suppose I build it with Improved Logistics after you, earlier in start world order, announce a takeover? Should I then be allowed to use PGSC to block it? Double-bleah.

Right now, with the current rules, you can inspect players' tableaus and know what powers can potentially affect your takeovers -- bearing in mind that already existing temporary Military powers could get fueled by cards or goods or prestige gained during Settle -- prior to announcing them.

Player order (which is not a strategic variable within the game) doesn't loom that large. If powers can immediately become active during a Settle phase, player order is going to matter much more and takeovers, already complex, are going to get really, really ugly from a rules point of view.

Quote:
I don't think such a world exists (yet)...

Imperium Fuel Depot, introduced in BoW.
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