Dane Peacock
United States Stansbury Park Utah
That tickles
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This review of Crusader Rex will concentrate mainly on comparisons to Hammer of the Scots (HotS) and Liberty. All three are based on the same base design and they seem like a trilogy of sorts.
I have always contended that Liberty is a more streamlined and playable version of the HotS system. Well, Crusader Rex streamlines and simplifies the Liberty system even further. Is this good or bad?
Mapboard:
HotS features territories or areas Liberty features hexes Crusader Rex features a point-to-point system, or strictly road movement
The mapboards create two significant differences between the 3 games: Movement and territory control.
Movement system:
HotS is separated into areas. Units move over borders from territory to territory. There are rules for border movement, limits, and territory control.
The hexes in Liberty are similar to many hex and counter mapboards, and provide for considerable strategic choices. There are rules pertaining to hex side movement, limits, and control.
The point-to-point system in Crusader Rex simplifies movement significantly. Gone are all the rules for hex side movement, limits, and control. Movement in Crusader Rex is limited to 8 units max per turn along major roads and 4 units max along minor roads, halved if moving to battle. It’s as easy as that.
Territory control system
Arguably, the territory control rules are the most difficult rules to master in HotS and especially Liberty, partly due to neutral territories. Crusader Rex once again simplifies this significantly.
All towns are designated as belonging to the Franks (orange) or Saracens (green). Each player controls any town that they occupy, and any unoccupied town of their color. It’s as easy as that (with a notable clarification for besieged towns).
The Crusader Rex mapboard movement and control system is, without a doubt, easier to understand and simpler to grasp. The rules quickly fade into the background while playing. Comparatively, there is always the need to pay attention to border and hex side movement, limits, and territory control with HotS and Liberty.
Does this simplification come at a loss? It depends. My 14-year-old son made the comment that Crusader Rex feels more like a strategy game than a war game. I know that sounds vague, but I certainly understood what he meant.
Wintering:
All three games include rules for wintering, although they are somewhat different for each game. Once again, Liberty streamlined the wintering rules from HotS, and Crusader Rex has simplified them even more.
Wintering in all three games serves as a limiter, preventing each game from becoming an ‘amass your forces and roll over your opponent’ type of game, while adding a level of strategic choices. Wintering in Crusader Rex is simpler than the other games, yet has no less impact on gameplay.
Victory Conditions:
Hots is played for a set number of years, with the winner controlling the majority of nobles at the end of the scenario.
Liberty is a little different in that after a set number of years, the British must attain a certain number of victory points, by controlling victory point cities, and the Americans must stop this from happening,
Crusader Rex is played for a set number of years, with the winner controlling the most victory points by controlling victory point towns.
Crusader Rex has 7 victory point towns, valued from 2-4 points each. They are spaced perfectly, and allow for depth in strategic maneuvering and positioning. The Franks begin with a one point lead in VP’s.
My favorite is still the Liberty victory point system. It is a very compelling system, which seems to capture the flavor of the American Revolution.
Unique and distinctive sides:
Liberty wins out in this category also. Playing the Americans is very different from playing the British, and the strengths and weaknesses of each make the game a fantastic experience.
Hots is probably next, as playing England presents many challenges that are different from the Scots.
In Crusader Rex, each side has one distinctive rule. The Franks have the ability to charge (representing the Knights) with most of their units, while the Saracens have the ability to harry (the Franks have one unit type that can harry also). Both of these rules are implemented very well and create more choices in strategy, while providing distinction.
Sieges:
Siege warfare in Crusader Rex is brilliant and it is what sets it apart from the others.
Several towns, including all of the victory point towns, have castles. Defending units may choose to withdraw into the castle, or fight it out on the field. The attacking army may then choose to storm the castle, or lay siege. The besieged units may decide to wait it out (with attrition) until help (or winter) arrives, or sally forth and battle the besiegers.
Sieges are a joy to play and fit extremely well into the theme and strategy of the game.
Rulebook:
I would be amiss if I did not mention the rulebook. It is excellent. It is no secret what I think about the archaic 2.2.6 type rules system that I feel is non-conducive to learning. This game handles it like a gem. The rules are beautifully done. My perception of this may be skewed in that I already have experience playing Crusader Rex’s sister games, but I still think a new player would have very little problem learning the game quickly and effectively from the rulebook alone.
Bottom line.
Although early, without hesitation I put this game at the top of lists such as ‘best introductory war game’, ‘best war game for Euro players’, and the like.
Crusader Rex is a more streamlined and simplified version of the HotS and Liberty system. The loss in complexity may result in a slight loss in character, but certainly not in strategy. It is extremely well balanced, exciting to play, and the simple yet effective siege rules push it over the top.
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David desJardins
United States Burlingame California
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Unfortunately, I can't agree about the rules. The Crusader Rex rules (like most Columbia Games, unfortunately) are a big problem: there are lots of ambiguities and it seems likely to take several months for them to all get ironed out. There are questions that make a huge difference to the game (e.g., when storming a castle, can you select a different group of units to storm each round, or do you have to use the same units for all rounds of the battle) and aren't answerable from the rules as written (it's not just me---on discussion boards you see half the people guessing one thing, and half guessing another).
It's true that Liberty was even worse.
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Jerry Taylor
United States Alexandria Virginia
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The rules are a big problem? Come on now. Most of the questions I've fielded about the rules are instances where gamers are assuming things about the game that simply aren't there. For instance, the rules say that Outremer draws from the pool can go into any town. Some people, however, apparently assumed that that the draws had to go into towns with numerical ratings. The rules, however, neither said nor implied anything of the sort - it was just an assumption that was probably a hold-over from experience with "Hammer of the Scots."
Rules which spell out and answer every single potential question in advance are rules that are virtually unreadable for a newbie and can often themselves prove confusing. For instance, those who read the last iteration of the HotS rulebook before the 2nd edition of the game came out found it very hard to follow and seemingly complicated when the game was really anything but. In short, a rulebook that tells you not only what you CAN do in the game but also what you CAN'T (you cannot steal an opponent's block while he's not looking - why not? - the rules don't say that I can't!) will satisfy rules lawyers but not help newcomers pick up the game.
In your example, David, it seems intuitive to me that players can choose which blocks are storming at the begining of each battle round. Why wouldn't the attacker avail himself of all of those guys just lingering around the walls with nothing to do if his attacking force needs help? Particularly since there's only 6 turns to a year, which implies that a "storming" event actually reflects about a month's worth of activity. While every rule book that I am aware of inadvertently leaves some matters opaque (and this is something we admittedly should have spelled out), most areas of ambiguity in the rules (like in the above example) can be easily adjudicated with a little bit of thought and common sense. These, however, have represented the minority of questions. Most are of the "not reading rules closely" variety.
Regardless, that's what I'm around for. I typically answer rules questions a day or two after they are posted and an FAQ is going up soon at CG that will be frequently updated.
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Medievalbanquet
United States Wellesley Massachusetts
And if you never have, you should. These things are fun and fun is good.
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Jerry Taylor wrote: The rules are a big problem? Come on now. Most of the questions I've fielded about the rules are instances where gamers are assuming things about the game that simply aren't there. For instance, the rules say that Outremer draws from the pool can go into any town. Some people, however, apparently assumed that that the draws had to go into towns with numerical ratings. The rules, however, neither said nor implied anything of the sort - it was just an assumption that was probably a hold-over from experience with "Hammer of the Scots."
Rules which spell out and answer every single potential question in advance are rules that are virtually unreadable for a newbie and can often themselves prove confusing. For instance, those who read the last iteration of the HotS rulebook before the 2nd edition of the game came out found it very hard to follow and seemingly complicated when the game was really anything but. In short, a rulebook that tells you not only what you CAN do in the game but also what you CAN'T (you cannot steal an opponent's block while he's not looking - why not? - the rules don't say that I can't!) will satisfy rules lawyers but not help newcomers pick up the game.
In your example, David, it seems intuitive to me that players can choose which blocks are storming at the begining of each battle round. Why wouldn't the attacker avail himself of all of those guys just lingering around the walls with nothing to do if his attacking force needs help? Particularly since there's only 6 turns to a year, which implies that a "storming" event actually reflects about a month's worth of activity. While every rule book that I am aware of inadvertently leaves some matters opaque (and this is something we admittedly should have spelled out), most areas of ambiguity in the rules (like in the above example) can be easily adjudicated with a little bit of thought and common sense. These, however, have represented the minority of questions. Most are of the "not reading rules closely" variety.
Regardless, that's what I'm around for. I typically answer rules questions a day or two after they are posted and an FAQ is going up soon at CG that will be frequently updated.
I have had a few questions with the rules. No big deal- it's a wargame, questions come up. I've mainly played ASL for 15 years so I know about rules... rules and more rules.
You have been great at answering questions, Jerry. That I can say. Which has been great and has helped in my first experience with a CG game. I played with a guy that had never played a real wargame in his life, though he's played plenty of games. He LOVED it!
The FAQ will help.
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skippen
United States Greeley Colorado
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DaviddesJ wrote: Unfortunately, I can't agree about the rules. The Crusader Rex rules (like most Columbia Games, unfortunately) are a big problem: there are lots of ambiguities and it seems likely to take several months for them to all get ironed out. There are questions that make a huge difference to the game (e.g., when storming a castle, can you select a different group of units to storm each round, or do you have to use the same units for all rounds of the battle) and aren't answerable from the rules as written (it's not just me---on discussion boards you see half the people guessing one thing, and half guessing another).
It's true that Liberty was even worse.
Really? I found the rules quite clean. Like all games, we had a few questions, but overall I think they are clean and concise. Overall, I like CR better than HotS, and I have yet to try Liberty.
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Dane Peacock
United States Stansbury Park Utah
That tickles
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Jerry Taylor wrote: Rules which spell out and answer every single potential question in advance are rules that are virtually unreadable for a newbie and can often themselves prove confusing. For instance, those who read the last iteration of the HotS rulebook before the 2nd edition of the game came out found it very hard to follow and seemingly complicated when the game was really anything but. In short, a rulebook that tells you not only what you CAN do in the game but also what you CAN'T (you cannot steal an opponent's block while he's not looking - why not? - the rules don't say that I can't!) will satisfy rules lawyers but not help newcomers pick up the game.
Perfectly said. I have found a few examples of this over the years, but have not been able to put it into words. (Galaxy: The Dark Ages anyone?) Mind if I borrow this in the future?
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Rusty Ballinger
United States Arcata California
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Sky Knight X wrote: Siege warfare in Crusader Rex is brilliant and it is what sets it apart from the others.
No no no, this review doesn't help me at all! Couldn't you say something like, "it's just like Hammer of the Scots, but with green and orange blocks; if you already have that game, you don't need Crusader Rex or Liberty. And you especially don't need to pre-order Hellas!"
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David desJardins
United States Burlingame California
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Jerry Taylor wrote: The rules are a big problem? Come on now.
The rules are a problem for me, as they have been in many previous Columbia games. I may try the game again in a few months when they get cleaned up. I'm sure all of the questions will eventually be asked and answered, and eventually there will be a ruleset and Q&A that together are enough to play the game correctly. I (and many people I know) would just be happier if that came when the game is published. It would make for a much better out-of-the-box experience. It's the main reason I won't preorder from Columbia Games.
Trying to choose between two competing rules interpretations, equally consistent with the rules as written, based on intuition and knowledge of the history of the period, doesn't work well for me. I'm sure there are other people who are happy with that. If there was blind playtesting (which I don't know if Columbia does any) it must have been by people who managed to fill in the gaps this way (although I still suspect that different people would come to different conclusions on some of the significant questions---like the ruling against Player 2 mustering into a town that Player 1 has just attacked, a rule that I don't really think is supported by the text: the control rules don't really define "control" for a town where both sides have troops but no battle has occurred yet).
I do agree that unclear rules are much less of a problem in these days of the Internet, and with a highly responsive designer like Jerry, than they were in the old days (not that long ago) when games would come out with equally problematic rules but it would take months to get questions answered by mail, and even longer for everyone to get the same answers. I'm sure that some of my negative reaction stems from that past experience.
I don't mean to be too negative, and I wouldn't go out of my way to criticize the rules, but I think that when people are told that the rules are problem-free, they should be warned somewhat.
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Dane Peacock
United States Stansbury Park Utah
That tickles
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DaviddesJ wrote: I may try the game again in a few months when they get cleaned up. I'm sure all of the questions will eventually be asked and answered, and eventually there will be a ruleset and Q&A that together are enough to play the game correctly.
The comment quoted above is so different from my experience with the game that I can't empathize at all. It is very surprising to me that someone had that type of experience with Crusader Rex's outstanding rule set.
Believe me, I have been a long time criticizer of this type of rules format. I have not been shy in my opinion on some of Columbia Game's rulebooks. That is one of the main reasons I wanted to point out how excellent these rules are.
I was very impressed with the simple, clean, and efficient way that the rules were presented in Crusader Rex.
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Dane Peacock
United States Stansbury Park Utah
That tickles
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kuhrusty wrote: Sky Knight X wrote: Siege warfare in Crusader Rex is brilliant and it is what sets it apart from the others. No no no, this review doesn't help me at all! Couldn't you say something like, "it's just like Hammer of the Scots, but with green and orange blocks; if you already have that game, you don't need Crusader Rex or Liberty. And you especially don't need to pre-order Hellas!"
I just fell out of my chair laughing, and I wasn't even sitting down. I know exactly what you mean. You might as well buy it. I mean really, do the kids need broth with their water every week?
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Dan Dolan
United States Highland Lakes New Jersey
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I've been playing wargames for 40+ years and I have seen some bad rules written. Crusader Rex's rules are not badly written. They are a good solid effort that for the most part uses rules that have been utilized in previous Columbia games.
The one area where most of the confusion arises is in the siege rules. this is the new concept in the game and it depicts sieges very well. For players new to wargames or to the CG block style games this is where they will get a bit confused. But a few moments rereading the rules will answer 99% of the questions. Could they have been clearer? Maybe but how much more would be needed and what would be the gain? The few questions that do arise have already been answered by Jerry and can be discerned through a careful reading of the rulebook.
Crusader Rex is IMO the best of CG's block games published to date. I'll play it anytime as either side. There isn't much more you can say about a game than that.
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Medievalbanquet
United States Wellesley Massachusetts
And if you never have, you should. These things are fun and fun is good.
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Phlegm wrote: I've been playing wargames for 40+ years and I have seen some bad rules written. Crusader Rex's rules are not badly written. They are a good solid effort that for the most part uses rules that have been utilized in previous Columbia games.
The one area where most of the confusion arises is in the siege rules. this is the new concept in the game and it depicts sieges very well. For players new to wargames or to the CG block style games this is where they will get a bit confused. But a few moments rereading the rules will answer 99% of the questions. Could they have been clearer? Maybe but how much more would be needed and what would be the gain? The few questions that do arise have already been answered by Jerry and can be discerned through a careful reading of the rulebook.
Crusader Rex is IMO the best of CG's block games published to date. I'll play it anytime as either side. There isn't much more you can say about a game than that.
I agree. I would never say that the rules are "badly written" to CR. But, I've had a few question marks about certain things that need clarification, not rewriting. There is a distinction. If someone is claiming they are badly written (or broken), they should look to other games or rules systems (I can think of a few ASL examples) that have had larger issues at times.
Andy
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David desJardins
United States Burlingame California
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I didn't say that the rules are "badly written", either. Rather, I think they are basically sound rules, but there are some gaps that should have been fixed in editing and through playtesting, before release.
It's interesting to me that so many people say that, yes, there are ambiguities in the rules, but, because Crusader Rex is a wargame, they expect there to be gaps and ambiguities in the rules. I don't understand why people have lower or different standards for wargames than other games. There are plenty of games in other genres that are way more complex than Crusader Rex, and yet the rules are much clearer.
I think it's reasonable to expect a commercial game to have rules that don't have ambiguities arise as soon as you start to play. A relatively small amount of blind playtesting would have been sufficient to discover many problems in the CR rules. Based on Jerry's reputation and what I had heard of CR, that's what I was expecting, and I was disappointed.
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Dane Peacock
United States Stansbury Park Utah
That tickles
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Quote: The loss in complexity may result in a slight loss in character, but certainly not in strategy.
I have been asked privately to explain better what I meant by Crusader Rex not having as much character as the other games. It is a fair question, so I will post my answer here.
I did not want to write that Crusader Rex was drier or more abstract than the other games, because that is not necessarily true. There is a good amount of historical flavor built into the game from the map and unit values, to the specific rules of the game.
Crusader Rex certainly has character; it is just that the rules are streamlined as such that the strategy raises to the top and is right there in front of the players. It is easier to take in the entire picture of the game at a glance. In Liberty, for instance, there are additional rules for Generals, terrain, and the like. These rules add complexity and perhaps fiddlyness to the game, but also add character and substance.
I am not asserting that this is good or bad. There are advantages and disadvantages. Some will appreciate this aspect and some will not. It is all a matter of taste.
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David Seddon
United Kingdom Congleton Cheshire
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An absolutely excellent review and following debate - exactly the sort of thing that makes BGG so good. Well done all - esp SK.
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bill betts
Canada Ottawa ontario
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Having just read this whole thread for the 1st time I have to reply to the question of ambiguities in wargame rules. I do not own or have not even played CR. Reading the question about using different units in seige my response (having never even read the rules) was of course! J. Taylor later said the same.
I am fairly new to wargames and what amazes me most is the fact that players create rule confusion where none exists. In my limited experience I have ALWAYS found that thinking of the context of what the game is emulating,taking the spirit of the rules, and using common sense answers any question. In this case a seige. Any soldiers outside a castle could attack, of course. There would be a limit of how many a turn (probably in the rules) but from turn to turn (day to day or month to month) of course different units could attack.
I have played Rommel in the Desert and many a question has been answered by common sense. As J. Taylor said, you can't list all the things you can't do in a rules set. Common sense, spirit of the rules, game context is all any 2 gamers should need to answer all questions!
BTW I was not implying anyone on this thread does not use common sense!
I just think we should all play the game to win by out thinking, out manouvering, bluffing and yes the odd lucky die roll. Not by knowing what rules we can use against their intention because we can make an arguement "it does not say I can't"
BTW I was not implying anyone on this thread does the above.
Bill "I still get my a$$ kicked at CEF 7 ways to Sunday" Betts
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You can call me Foob
United States Deale Maryland
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Great review Dane!
Just a few quick points:
Quote: Crusader Rex has 7 victory point towns, valued from 2-4 points each. They are spaced perfectly, and allow for depth in strategic maneuvering and positioning. The Franks begin with a one point lead in VP’s.
I may be reading you wrong, but I think that the victory conditions are more simple than you imply above. In my reading of the rules, the towns do not have values for purposes of victory. The values are used for sieges, replacements and wintering. To win at the end of the game, you need only to control “4 of the 7 victory towns” – not a majority of town point values.
Quote: Movement in Crusader Rex is limited to 8 units max per turn along major roads and 4 units max along minor roads, halved if moving to battle. It’s as easy as that.
I’m not telling you anything you don’t know, but it’s not quite that simple (this relates to another point below). When retreating you are limited by road limits per combat round(halved) and when regrouping the road limits also apply, except at full value. 4 instances, two different rules. Need to remember which is which. A little chart on the corner of the mapboard would have been helpful.
Quote: The rules are beautifully done. My perception of this may be skewed in that I already have experience playing Crusader Rex’s sister games, but I still think a new player would have very little problem learning the game quickly and effectively from the rulebook alone.
I have to agree with some of the detractors here… the rules are not a mess like some other games, but they do not deserve this high praise. They are at best, average for a war game and poor when compared to a Euro. Keep in mind that the typical Euro is completely clear out of the box and has no ambiguities and need for Q&A.
Quote: Crusader Rex is a more streamlined and simplified version of the HotS and Liberty system. The loss in complexity may result in a slight loss in character, but certainly not in strategy. It is extremely well balanced, exciting to play, and the simple yet effective siege rules push it over the top.
I agree with the first sentence, but would qualify it by saying "but not by much". HoTS is a complicated game (for a Euro player). So saying it is less complicated that HoTS is not saying much.
Euro gamers should be forewarned that this is still a war game and is by all measures, fairly complex when compared to your average Euro. There are many rules. There are exceptions to rules. There is at least one instances of an exception to an exception. Typical for a war game, but definitely not euro-fare.
The siege rules need clarification. The first revision of the rules and a FAQ will be forthcoming. This game was not playable without ambiguity out of the box. However, it wasn’t that bad, and you could get through your first game with only a few gentleman’s agreements and notes to “send a question to the designer”.
That said, the problems will be easily solved with a few clarifications and addition of a few sentences or words here and there. Columbia thankfully posts their rules (and updates them regularly) on their website, so no worries! The rules are well organized and clear, they just leave some things unsaid here and there that should have been spelled out.
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Dane Peacock
United States Stansbury Park Utah
That tickles
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Fubar's first point is correct. The majority of VP cities determines victory, not total points. A player may also win immediately by capturing all 7 cities.
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The two conditions you describe are actually equivalent. The victory cities have a total point value of 21. Individual cities are rated 1x2, 5x3, 1x4, so no combination of 3 cities exists with a total point value of 11 or above.
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Ted Kostek
United States Camano Island Washington
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Regarding the clarity of rules of Columbia games, Jerry Taylor says if you try to explain every tiny detail the rules become unreadable.
The way to handle this is probably via examples. I have several games from Columbia, and the number & quality of examples varies quite a bit. In EastFront, there's an extended example covering several turns with multiple units on each side; it does a great job of clarifying almost all concepts in the game. War of 1812, admitly a much simpler game, has a trivial move/battle example only showing how land battle works. That example turn doesn't illustrate naval moves/battles, forced march, American militia, or wintering, each of which can potentially be confusing. 1812 has several other examples, all helpful, but also quite small. None of them is widely encompassing.
Regarding the wargame vs strategy game, I think I understand what's being aimed at here, even though I've never played Crusader. Comparing War of 1812 to Eastfront shows a similar kind of split. Eastfront has a much higher degree of "granular detail" than War of 1812. In 1812 you pick an area to concentrate your forces; in Eastfront you pick the area, then you have to execute the concentration, too. It's almost like in 1812 you have an officer corp that executes some of the details and lets you focus on the high level whereas in Eastfront you both look at the high level and the details as well. Hence in Eastfront there's less luck, but more complexity.
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Dane Peacock
United States Stansbury Park Utah
That tickles
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kostek wrote: Regarding the wargame vs strategy game, I think I understand what's being aimed at here, even though I've never played Crusader. Comparing War of 1812 to Eastfront shows a similar kind of split. Eastfront has a much higher degree of "granular detail" than War of 1812. In 1812 you pick an area to concentrate your forces; in Eastfront you pick the area, then you have to execute the concentration, too. It's almost like in 1812 you have an officer corp that executes some of the details and lets you focus on the high level whereas in Eastfront you both look at the high level and the details as well. Hence in Eastfront there's less luck, but more complexity.
Well said.
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Jim Scheiderich
United States Liverpool New York
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I am in the midst of my 1st game of CR.
First comment: if you want rules confusion read those for Assyrian Wars...those prompted me to produce a variety of Play Aids.
Second: the first issue raised about Storming (during a Siege) went to substituting units doing the Storming. The rules (7.31 3rd paragraph) clearly stated that the Besieging side - the one doing the storming - could substitute other available blocks per combat round.
There is a point that could be clarified:
The mapboard should have indicated a limit for Storming Tyre and Tripoli who have a limit of 2 storming blocks. This is easy to overlook.
The Siege portion of the rules should have made a bolded comment that Siege related castle Storming had 3 rounds of combat vs. field combat that goes 4 rounds; (this applies even in a case where the defender immediately backs into a castle). AND point out that, the Storming attacker does NOT have to retreat but simply remains in place, face up next to the castle if desired. (If entering Winter that's another matter).
Finally, addition of examples in the rules - something which Columbia used to do (see East Front) aided in clarifying the rules. Perhaps, the rules for this series of game should have had a common set followed by specific differences.
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Derek Croxton
United States Charlottesville Virginia
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Ah, the idealism of the novice.
I have played enough games to see every variation of intuitive and counter-intuitive rules, and I have had disputes with many reasonable wargamers over them all. It's not a matter of being a rules lawyer; it's a question of knowing that games have used various interpretations, and not being sure which to use. The fact that there are similar games sometimes make things worse, since the same situation is handled in different ways -- further evidence that "intuitive" doesn't really work as a heuristic.
What surprises me is that no one has mentioned the balance question. HOTS is beautifully balanced, but I'm told CR is 80% pro-Saracen. I've only played once, so I'm not in a position to comment; but I would like to get other opinions.
Sincerely, Derek
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