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Carcassonne: The City» Forums » Rules

Subject: A couple of questions re. guards placement. rss

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Matt Johnson
United Kingdom
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Hi there,

Sorry if these are answered elsewhere - I have had a rummage through the forum.

1. We assumed you cannot place a guard on the gate, as it's not a "wall" (forum agrees). We weren't sure about the rest of the walls built in that first round of building. My assumption is that you may place a guard if you want to, as they are walls. Just felt a bit weird that it's the only round where one player (the gate-builder) doesn't get the opportunity to place a guard.

2. I just read on the forum that if wall-building means you finish a road/market, resulting in getting a follower of your own back, then you can immediately place that follower onto the wall you just placed. Is that correct? I assumed as with normal Carcassonne, you would need a meeple in your stash to place as a guard.

That's all for now. Also we played the entire game ignorant to the fact that you can't 'bounce' meeples to score when completing an unowned road or market - thought the wall-building seemed a bit too easy!

Thanks!

 
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Dan Cavaliere
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Littleton
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Hi Matt,

1. I believe you can put a guard on the city gate. We had originally played that you could not but then checked the rules again and could not find anything contradicting this. We also realized that there would not be much incentive for someone to cause the 1st scoring if you could not take advantage of placing the gate and adding a guard to it.

2. This is correct. The rules state that you may 'immediately place a follower from his supply' - so no 'bouncing'.
 
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Matt Johnson
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Thanks!

Still not entirely sure about the gate, the forum seems almost 50/50 on the issue. Someone claims:

"I emailed the people at Rio Grande games and got an answer on this question. They said that on the play where the city gate is played, no player gets to place guards even if they play wall pieces. On the next scoring play when walls are played, each player may then place a wall piece and then a guard if desired. Hope this helps."

Guess can just try different options as long as we agree before the start...
 
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Something Awry
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Kirkland
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The Nice and Accurate Prophecies of Agnes Nutter, Witch
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Grr. Arg.
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Here's the way I've always interpreted the rules:

All walls (regardless of which scoring) may have a guard, subject to the rules of supply and existing ownership that apply to any placement of followers in the game. And the city gate is not considered a wall. (I'll explain my thinking further below.)

To place a guard, the player must have a follower in supply as the wall is being placed. That follower could have even come from scoring caused by the immediately previous player's wall, but not the wall the guard will stand on. Also, the guard cannot stand on a wall that would be part of an existing guard's "watch". Either there is no existing guard watching the same line of tiles, or there's at least one gap in the line so that the new guard's watch doesn't connect, at time of placement, with the other's watch.

The city gate itself is the only difference between the first time players build walls, and every other. The player with the city gate will not get a chance to place a guard, but the other players will, as purposeful balancing.

Consider that walls and guards are a game within a game. The outside game of tile-placement, citizens, sellers, and stewards is already balanced per Carcassonne without walls. The first player to place a tile isn't much different than the others. Wall-building, on the other hand, starts at least 40% into the game, by tile-count. It will start even later into the total game if the first scoring is delayed, and/or the city's perimeter is completely walled before exhausting the tiles. The decision to determine where the wall starts is both somewhat informed and reasonably long-term. Set the wall to start containing your opponents while on the other side of the city you expand features you already own. Your opponents could grow one side of the wall faster than you anticipated, but you've still determined where it all started.

On the other hand, depending on the shape of the city (and its remaining growth for about half the game), those first few guards could be watching over some long lines by the end, and holes are much easier to fill when only roads limit the available options. There's incentive to be the person to place the gate, but if doing so means a lost chance otherwise, there's more of a decision there.

Giving the city gate a guard makes me think almost immediately of a peninsula of tiles. Place the gate at the end, and the only guard worth placing for a while is the one looking along the length of the peninsula... the one on the gate. In a three player game, even a single-tile peninsula gives the gate-player power to waste the next player's wall while perhaps still having an edge on player 3. It just seems too easy to create uneven play. Take away the gate-guard, and again, it seems like there's more of a decision there.

Not official, just my thoughts.

Ryan.

Besides, gate guards aren't supposed to be up on the walls; they're supposed to be standing out front, trying to convince Fezzik and Inigo that they have no gate key.

Inigo: "Fezzik, tear his arms off."
Yellin: "Oh, you mean *this* gate key."
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Matt Johnson
United Kingdom
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Thanks for this! Makes good sense to me . Looking forward to playing this game again.
 
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Kevin Staden
United Kingdom
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I'm trying to find the definitive answer to this one as well. Having just played it for the first time the gate question cropped up.

Whilst I take the point that in reality the gate keepers would be at ground level, this is a game... The rules state the first person who places a scoring tile after the second stack comes into play takes the gate and places it followed around the table by all other players with a wall piece. Now, if that first player places the gate but is not allowed to place a guard on it, he is somewhat disadvantaged to the other players. This seems wrong, as he was the person who managed to get the first scoring tile?

A possible solution - First player places the gate (no meeples) and then immediately places a wall section (may place a meeple).... or it could round the table and on this round only he places the last wall piece. Just a thought!
 
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Gillum the Stoor
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Lord_Wishmaster wrote:
The rules state the first person who places a scoring tile after the second stack comes into play takes the gate and places it followed around the table by all other players with a wall piece. Now, if that first player places the gate but is not allowed to place a guard on it, he is somewhat disadvantaged to the other players. This seems wrong, as he was the person who managed to get the first scoring tile?

Much of the mid to late part of the game involves placing walls with care to minimize other players' scoring during wall placement - either through placing guards overlooking especially lucrative rows and columns, or through placing towers adjacent to long sequences of wall sections.

The first player to score from the second stack has a big advantage because he can select where the initial walls will be placed. For example, he may have 1-2 stewards in residential areas that he hopes to grow with many markets; if so, he could place the gate on the opposite side of the city to increase his opportunities. Correspondingly, he could place the gate on the city side on which his opponents' are growing residential areas.

Because the opportunity to select the initial gate locations seems to confer a significant advantage, it seems reasonable to offset that by preventing that player from placing a guard upon the gate.

That said, I believe that Rio Grande has ruled that no player may place a guard during that initial round of wall placement. I believe that Hans in Gluck has ruled that it is only the player placing the gate who is so limited.
 
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Kevin Staden
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gillum wrote:
That said, I believe that Rio Grande has ruled that no player may place a guard during that initial round of wall placement. I believe that Hans in Gluck has ruled that it is only the player placing the gate who is so limited.


I don't suppose you have any links to either?
 
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Dan Cavaliere
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Lord_Wishmaster wrote:
gillum wrote:
That said, I believe that Rio Grande has ruled that no player may place a guard during that initial round of wall placement. I believe that Hans in Gluck has ruled that it is only the player placing the gate who is so limited.


I don't suppose you have any links to either?


Looks like it was answered HERE with a response from Hans im Glück. Going to have to update my rule book with a sticky note.
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Gillum the Stoor
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Gamer DC wrote:
Looks like it was answered HERE with a response from Hans im Glück.

Right!

Actually, that thread has people reporting both answers:

This one (2007) says, "Rio Grande Games ... on the play where the city gate is played, no player gets to place guards even if they play wall pieces."

This one (2015) says, "Hans im Glück ... You can't place a follower on the gate in Carcassonne: Die Stadt. The first player gets to choose the starting position, that's all. The other players are allowed to place a follower on their walls, even when the gate is built."
 
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Dan Cavaliere
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gillum wrote:
Gamer DC wrote:
Looks like it was answered HERE with a response from Hans im Glück.

Right!

Actually, that thread has people reporting both answers:

This one (2007) says, "Rio Grande Games ... on the play where the city gate is played, no player gets to place guards even if they play wall pieces."

This one (2015) says, "Hans im Glück ... You can't place a follower on the gate in Carcassonne: Die Stadt. The first player gets to choose the starting position, that's all. The other players are allowed to place a follower on their walls, even when the gate is built."


No wonder there's confusion then - good thing I used a sticky note
 
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