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The Siege of Jerusalem (second edition)» Forums » General

Subject: Automatic Breaches rss

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Jeff Kouba

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Rule 19.7 says that "the Romans may breach one Elevated Hex per week between Assault Periods along any wall they control."

But, for purposes of Wall Control, 18.35 says "All hexes of a Wall section adjacent to a Judaean-controlled section of the city are controlled by the Judaean player at the start of an Assault Period."

So, that sounds like the Romans could only use these free breaches on walls between two adjacent areas they already control. (Because to control a wall, the Romans must control the areas on each side of the wall.) Or, on outer walls around a section they already control.

When would the Romans ever want to do this? What use is it to breach a wall between areas you already control?
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Wulf Corbett
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It's been a long time since I played this, but I think one idea is to stop the Judeans moving along the wall - you can control both areas, but not all the towers. You might need to knock a wall down to get the towers in to the next section. It might also help in mining the next wall in.

All just ideas from memory, may not be right.
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Steve Hope
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You can use it in the New City/Temple area to create the possibility for siege engines to move back and forth between outside the city and inside. Also, as Wulf says, it can be handy to keep the walls from being highways for annoying Judeans to try and reach outlying fortresses that you'd rather not garrison.

EDIT: I **think** this makes sense, but it's been nearly 15 years--can't you also use it to create a cohort bonus as part of a group attack on an adjoining wall space? So I can imagine putting a breach next to a Judaean hex with the idea of getting that +1 for the ensuing attack.
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Wulf Corbett
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I was intrigued, so I checked. Judeans can always occupy Fortresses (tunnels & sewers), but not Bastions, so that idea still holds. Towers can't pass through Gates (Rams can), so that works. And you can't extend a mine under a standing elevated hex, so that does too (although I think you can start a mine within a conquered area).

EDIT: And, yes, you can attack an Elevated hex at half strength from a Breach hex, or just climb it to get another avenue of attack on a Judean Fortress. But you can't Breach the hex adjacent to a Judean Fortress, or within 2 hexes of it.
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Brian Sielski
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Wulf Corbett wrote:
But you can't Breach the hex adjacent to a Judean Fortress, or within 2 hexes of it.


Are you sure? What is the reference here? During the game, you can take a ram, and go after anything, so this seems weird.
 
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Steve Hope
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I think Wulf just means you can't place those breach markers for free in the interphases, since the Judaeans would be raining fire down on you.

Wulf, I meant that the Judaeans would have more trouble getting to those fortresses you had cleared. Unless my recollection is quite faulty, it's only those fortresses that the Judaeans occupied at the end of the last AP that they are allowed to garrison in the next AP. So placing breaches along the walls can keep the Judaeans from whizzing units along to occupy them. Of course, placing a unit there is far more effective...

As a side question, has anyone found this game balanced? Our only Roman victories in probably 20-30 campaigns of this were based on surprise Temple occupations where an unexpected Continuing Attack or something cleared the Judaeans from their entries to the Temple courtyard in the 1st AP and the Romans could take it. Other than that, we only had one siege that got to AP 5 (usually they foundered in AP3, most often with a slew of burning siege engines in the AF/Temple area and either too many casualties or a failure to take the Temple) and that one was an easy breakout by the Judaeans that probably added 300 VPs to their score and put them over the top.
 
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Jeff Kouba

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Dr Brian wrote:
Wulf Corbett wrote:
But you can't Breach the hex adjacent to a Judean Fortress, or within 2 hexes of it.


Are you sure? What is the reference here? During the game, you can take a ram, and go after anything, so this seems weird.


The rule (19.7) does say: "The hex breached may not be within two hexes of a Judaean-controlled Elevated hex (including bypassed Forts)."
 
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Brian Sielski
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Okay ... thanks for the citation. But it has to be a Judean controlled elevated hex. That makes sense now.

Regarding the game balance. That is a topic of discussion elsewhere in this forum. Many proposals have been suggested to balance it out. It is a tough nut for Rome to crack.
 
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Wulf Corbett
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stephenhope wrote:
Unless my recollection is quite faulty, it's only those fortresses that the Judaeans occupied at the end of the last AP that they are allowed to garrison in the next AP.
Correct, I think - but they can relocate artillery pieces there!
 
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Jim F
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Another game I'd love to play again.
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Jonathan Harrison
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I've been reading this with excitement ... I have this coming this week.
 
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Alan Lipka
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jkouba wrote:
Rule 19.7 says that "the Romans may breach one Elevated Hex per week between Assault Periods along any wall they control."

When would the Romans ever want to do this? What use is it to breach a wall between areas you already control?


Hi Jeff -

We have used this tactic to do several things.

1) Disrupt movement of Judaean units between Redoubts. (As the Judaean, I ALWAYS fully garrison isolated Forts. They are worth VP's and it forces the Roman to commit troops to capture them. Being able to reinforce Forts by using the Wall is a nice thing to be able to do. A Breach between two Forts makes this harder.)

2) Open up the terrain for better movement. (Many times a Legion is set up away from the planned action in order to attempt Mining. (Rule 19.21) Shifting that Legion to where it is needed more urgently can be facilitated by Breaching Walls between where the boys are and where they need to be. Examples are the QQ column in the New City so that units placed outside Jerusalem to satisfy requirement to Mine the Temple can return to help assaulting the Tyropean City and the "50" row of the NC to allow units doing the same to the Walls of Herod's Palace to re-enter the NC.)

3) Create avenues of retreat for Roman units. (Since Disrupted Roman units must Retreat toward the nearest Board edge, it is often helpful to open up an avenue for them to do so.)

4) Create better terrain for defending against Missile Fire. (The above disrupted units come to mind.)

5) Create better terrain to stage for an attack. (Sometimes it's nice to have an extra hex or two to mass full stacks, and the Breached Wall makes this possible. That QQ column of the NC is an example.)

I'm sure there are other applications from different city Areas, but having never made it through Phase III, it would only be speculation on my part to suggest them.

As you might suspect, I am a firm believer that the game is heavily balanced towards the Judaean. I don't think that the designers had this in mind, so the problem in probably me. If anyone else has figured it out, please share !
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Alan Lipka
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Ashiefan wrote:
Another game I'd love to play again.


Hi Jim -

Would you like to try it PBEM ? VASSAL ? I'm only 57 years old and in good health, so probably have about 20 years of mental clarity left. We should be able to finish by then.

I think it would be a blast !

~ Alan
 
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Brian Sielski
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Lipka149 wrote:
As you might suspect, I am a firm believer that the game is heavily balanced towards the Judaean. I don't think that the designers had this in mind, so the problem in probably me. If anyone else has figured it out, please share ! :D


We need some face-to-face time to play this Alan!
 
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Alan Lipka
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Wulf Corbett wrote:
stephenhope wrote:
Unless my recollection is quite faulty, it's only those fortresses that the Judaeans occupied at the end of the last AP that they are allowed to garrison in the next AP.
Correct, I think - but they can relocate artillery pieces there!


Yup, and it is a real sneaky deal to plunk a Ballista in a Fort where the Roman must Retreat towards ! Routed and Panicked units are easy VP's. Just one more thing for the Roman to think about ... and the Judaean to have fun with !!! angry

~ A
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Alan Lipka
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Dr Brian wrote:
Lipka149 wrote:
As you might suspect, I am a firm believer that the game is heavily balanced towards the Judaean. I don't think that the designers had this in mind, so the problem in probably me. If anyone else has figured it out, please share !


We need some face-to-face time to play this Alan!


Yup. You have the babies, so I'll come to you. Any chance you have a long weekend to spare ? Give it some thought and let's see what we can work out. I would enjoy meeting you in any case ... had a lot of fun with you and everyone on the ASL Club @ AOL years ago.
 
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Jeff Kouba

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Lipka149 wrote:
We have used this tactic to do several things


Thanks for the helpful reply, that makes sense.

Another question came to mind, as I'm new to the game, if you haven't guessed. My son and I are just getting it set up.

Where can Roman siege engines set up in subsequent assault phases?

Do they have to set up where they conceivably could have moved to during an assault phase? And so, you knock holes in a rear wall in order to be able to "move" siege engines up to a front line wall in preparation for the next assault?

I just noticed, too, on the TEC that it looks like two consecutive wall hexes must be breached in order to move siege engines (and a testudo) through. Presumably to get an opening big enough. (And so, you'd have to breach at least two hexes to move the siege engines up in this case.)

Or, I suppose a Roman player could be considered to control any gate in an area now under his control, and so could move any siege engines through it for the next assault?
 
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Wulf Corbett
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Note that Rams can move through gates. It's only Towers that need Breaches.
 
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Alan Lipka
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jkouba wrote:
Where can Roman siege engines set up in subsequent assault phases?

Do they have to set up where they conceivably could have moved to during an assault phase? And so, you knock holes in a rear wall in order to be able to "move" siege engines up to a front line wall in preparation for the next assault?


No. Setup Rule #5 allows siege engines to be set up within any Roman controlled city section.

jkouba wrote:
I just noticed, too, on the TEC that it looks like two consecutive wall hexes must be breached in order to move siege engines (and a testudo) through. Presumably to get an opening big enough. (And so, you'd have to breach at least two hexes to move the siege engines up in this case.)

Or, I suppose a Roman player could be considered to control any gate in an area now under his control, and so could move any siege engines through it for the next assault?


You are correct about getting an opening big enough to move through, but this only applies during a Phase. Interphase setup actions are independent of this.

Have fun playing this with your son ! Aaron and I did this for years and still look forward to the occasional weekend where we can have a go at it. We play like true barbarians ... neither of us shaves or uses deodorant, we burp and fart with reckless abandon, and eat with our fingers. What fun !

laugh

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Damo
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Lipka149 wrote:
Wulf Corbett wrote:
stephenhope wrote:
Unless my recollection is quite faulty, it's only those fortresses that the Judaeans occupied at the end of the last AP that they are allowed to garrison in the next AP.
Correct, I think - but they can relocate artillery pieces there!


Yup, and it is a real sneaky deal to plunk a Ballista in a Fort where the Roman must Retreat towards ! Routed and Panicked units are easy VP's. Just one more thing for the Roman to think about ... and the Judaean to have fun with !!! angry

~ A


That's just plain nasty
 
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Alan Lipka
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Damjon wrote:
Lipka149 wrote:
Wulf Corbett wrote:
stephenhope wrote:
Unless my recollection is quite faulty, it's only those fortresses that the Judaeans occupied at the end of the last AP that they are allowed to garrison in the next AP.
Correct, I think - but they can relocate artillery pieces there!


Yup, and it is a real sneaky deal to plunk a Ballista in a Fort where the Roman must Retreat towards ! Routed and Panicked units are easy VP's. Just one more thing for the Roman to think about ... and the Judaean to have fun with !!! angry

~ A


That's just plain nasty


And with a Cauldron and 3 Regulars, can be both costly and time consuming to deal with. shake
 
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