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Subject: Blue gem move rss

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david karasick
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When the last green gem moves off the center, how does the blue gem move? Does it go along the same route of the last green one or does it move as a separate movement. If so, which road does it take if there are now 6 different ones leaving the center.
 
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Mark Gerrits
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You only put 5 green gems in the center, not 6.
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david karasick
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Here I thought that each green gem went out where it was on the center tile. But you are right.....only 1 of 5 green gems goes off to the newly connected tile every time a tile is placed next to the center tile and then the blue moves on the 6th connected tile.
 
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Skip Maloney
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The blue gem moves off the center tile, the same way that the five green gems left before it; along the route that the route tile designates. It doesn't follow the path of the last green gem. It takes off in whatever direction the player chooses, based on the placement of the last route tile placed at the center.
 
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Skip Maloney
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Here's a related question I didn't think of until later.
There are six exit spaces from the central treasure tile, the dark blue one. Instructions indicate that at the start of the game, players place five green and one blue gem on to this tile, but they do not indicate whether, in placement, the position of these gems is fixed to a particular exit at the start, only that the blue gem will be the last to exit this tile.
In other words, the question goes, are each of them placed at specific exit points on the tile or is the exit of the central gems controlled by random placement of a route tile?
Think of it this way: With the central tile on the board, number the exits, clockwise, from the topmost position, 1 through 6. Let's say you place green gems on 1, 2, 4, 5 and 6, and the blue gem on # 3. This means that when you place route tiles at the center, you'd be unable to place a tile at the # 3 exit, until you had placed a tile, allowing the other six green gems to exit.
Alternatively, if the gems are not specifically assigned exit points, you would place route tiles anywhere you wanted around the central treasure tile, allowing the first five green gems to exit, and then, at whatever exit is left, a route tile would be placed and the blue gem would exit.
I'm inclined toward the latter explanation, because specific placement of the blue gem on one specific exit would orient it toward a particular edge of the board (maybe two edges),benefiting particular players. Placing it at the # 3 exit (roughly a 4 o'clock position) might create a potential exit path for the higher scoring blue gem, oriented in a southeasterly direction, toward someone else's exit paths.
The rules state that at the start, "One blue sapphire and 5 green emeralds go on the dark blue tile in the middle. . " It does not say "one, at each exit arrow on the dark blue tile." As to placement of a route tile, adjacent to the dark blue tile at the center, the rules state that "one of the green emeralds is moved until only the blue sapphire is left. This is the last gem to be moved from the (central) treasure tile."
So. . .what do you think? Five green and one blue gem just hang out in the center tile with their exits paths determined by players placing route tiles randomly at the center, with blue exiting last? Or five green and one blue gem assigned specific exit paths with players adjusting strategy to account for that?
 
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Bart R.
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You are right, I don't see anything in the rules stating that the position of the gems is somehow fixed. You connect a tile to the center tile and a green gem moves. If there are no more green gems, the blue gem moves.
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JM G
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I'm still confused with this rule. To summarize, I can see two different ways to understand it, that I will name "A" and "B".

A) You carefully arrange each of the 5 green gem upon their designed paths. Each green gem will quit the center tile if and only if its own path get extended.


B) You put the green gems wherever you want upon the center tile, and they will quit their departure emplacement in one after the other as soon as a route connected to the center tile is extended, regardless of what path is concerned.


Some reasons for those interpretations and suggestions:


Reasons:

A) This is implied by the rule "if the tile that has just been placed extend a route that already has a gem on it".

B) This seems to be illustrated by the illustrations of Fig 4,5,6 from the rulebook.

Suggestions for another design of the center tile:


A: it would then have been better to design the center tile without a special center place for the blue gem, and simply arrange the six gems upon the six associated paths upon the edges.

B) it would have been clearer to design the center tile without the paths coming from the different edges.



It might well be possible that both interpretations of the rules are playable, but which one do you favor yourself (and why) ?
 
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Bruce Murphy
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B is obviously the correct answer, since A would imbalance the game as the blue gem would exit closer to some player's goal exits. The German rules are quite clear.

In the gem-movement section.

"Bei der Schatztafel in der Mitte wird zunächst immer einer grünen Smaragde bewegt, bis nur noch der blaue Saphir übrig ist. Dieser wird als letzter Edelstein von der Schatztafel bewegt"

as directly as grammar permits:

When [a route is laid] next to the treasure tile in the middle, the green gems are always moved first until only the blue sapphire is left. This is always the last gem to move off the treasure tile.

B>
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JM G
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thepackrat wrote:
B is obviously the correct answer, since A would imbalance the game as the blue gem would exit closer to some player's goal exits. The German rules are quite clear.

In the gem-movement section.

"Bei der Schatztafel in der Mitte wird zunächst immer einer grünen Smaragde bewegt, bis nur noch der blaue Saphir übrig ist. Dieser wird als letzter Edelstein von der Schatztafel bewegt"

as directly as grammar permits:

When [a route is laid] next to the treasure tile in the middle, the green gems are always moved first until only the blue sapphire is left. This is always the last gem to move off the treasure tile.

B>


Thanks for the quick answer Bruce.

I'm not convinced that the A rule would favor some player from the beginning, as no path are constructed yet.

And from what i understand , the english translation (i don't speak german) only states that the last gem to quit the center tile should be the blue one, which does not seems contradictory with the A interpretation imho.

Whatever, thanks again for your answer.
 
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Bruce Murphy
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It doesn't contradict A if you invent an entirely new rule from nothing that dictates the order in which paths can be connected to the central tile so that your pre-arranged assignment of gems to exits matches the rule we actually have.

Since we take a dim view of people inventing entirely new rules to justify unusual interpretations, there's no way A is going to fly.

B>
 
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JM G
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thepackrat wrote:
It doesn't contradict A if you invent an entirely new rule from nothing that dictates the order in which paths can be connected to the central tile so that your pre-arranged assignment of gems to exits matches the rule we actually have.

Since we take a dim view of people inventing entirely new rules to justify unusual interpretations, there's no way A is going to fly.

B>


Thanks for replying. I hope to read from other users opinion, because as far as i am concerned, I favor respectful discussions.

English is not my native langage, so I'm not 100% certain that I made my point as clear as I tried to, but my purpose was just to understand the meaning of the rules as they are written into my rulebook, not to "invent an entirely new rule from nothing" on purpose. For your information, each and every player from my gaming group tried to figure out the correct interpretation of this rule from the game's rulebook, and none was quite sure about how to make it out.

Besides, I'm curious of who are exactly the "we" you are referring to into your expression "we don't take a dim view of people..."

Regards
 
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Bruce Murphy
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"we" is Bill Occam and myself.

Which rulebook were you trying to figure it out from? The original German? the official English one, or an unofficial English translation.

It is impossible to have the blue gem be the last gem to leave (as the rules require) and to preassign the gems to particular exits (your A interpretation) without inventing new rules that dictate the order in which paths can be connected to the center tile.

It is an unfortunate fact that once a group of people seize on an incorrect rules interpretation, they will often be unable to drop that incorrect assumption and simply read the rules as they are written, leading to ever more contorted interpretations and rules being invented to avoid going back on that first step. This phenomenon is called "groupthink".

B>
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JM G
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thepackrat wrote:
"we" is Bill Occam and myself.


ah.

thepackrat wrote:

Which rulebook were you trying to figure it out from? The original German? the official English one, or an unofficial English translation.


I thought this was clear. I'm refering to the rule book included into the game box I've bought. Cannot think of anything more official.


thepackrat wrote:

It is an unfortunate fact that once a group of people seize on an incorrect rules interpretation , they will often be unable ...


I consider myself as a more unfortunate fact that some group of people do not address to others with respect and politeness.

Thanks again for your answers.

B>[/q]
 
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Bruce Murphy
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trioker wrote:

thepackrat wrote:

Which rulebook were you trying to figure it out from? The original German? the official English one, or an unofficial English translation.


I thought this was clear. I'm refering to the rule book included into the game box I've bought. Cannot think of anything more official.


Let me try again.

What language is the rulebook you are looking at written in?

B>
 
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JM G
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thepackrat wrote:
trioker wrote:

thepackrat wrote:

Which rulebook were you trying to figure it out from? The original German? the official English one, or an unofficial English translation.


I thought this was clear. I'm refering to the rule book included into the game box I've bought. Cannot think of anything more official.


Let me try again.

What language is the rulebook you are looking at written in?

B>


Let me try to answer this once again:

I think that the rulebook included into the box should be more or less the same worldwide... However, mine is in german , french (my native langage), italian, english, and dutch, in that order.
 
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Bruce Murphy
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trioker wrote:

Let me try to answer this once again:

I think that the rulebook included into the box should be more or less the same worldwide... However, mine is in german , french (my native langage), italian, english, and dutch, in that order.


As is indicated in the versions section for this game, Indigo was first released just in German, and subsequently in an international version. I have the original German version, and that is the only rulebook that is available online as far as I'm aware.

I hope it is redundant for me to point out that game rules are almost always written in one language (German for Ravensburger) and then translated to the others. It's not uncommon for that translation process to be flawed, which is why I suggest people try to read rules in the original language, or at least be aware that the actual rules for the game might not be what they're holding and reading.

I assume that you read the French rules? Could you quote the full paragraph that deals with moving gems from the central tile? I'm now curious where the ambiguity you describe arises.

B>
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JM G
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thepackrat wrote:
[q="trioker"]

Could you quote the full paragraph that deals with moving gems from the central tile? I'm now curious where the ambiguity you describe arises.

B>



Sure:

"Si la tuile Chemins est adjacente au côté d'une tuile Trésor marqué d'une flèche, le joueur déplace une pierre précieuse qui s'y trouve en suivant la flèche jusqu'à l'extrémité du chemin créé: Pour les tuiles trésor au bord du plateau (Illus. 3) , il déplace l'ambre jaune qui s'y trouve. Pour la tuile Trésor du centre (illst.4); il déplace toujours d'abord l'une des émeraudes vertes jusqu'à ce qu'il ne reste plus que le saphir bleu. C'est la dernière pierre précieuse à quitter la tuile Trésor (comme pour les autres, en ajoutant une tuile Chemins à côté"

Are you fluent in french ?Othewise, I don't think i will take more time to explain where the ambiguity relies...


I hope it is not redundant for me to point out that tha I don't speak german, so I cannot judge by the original rules, and that I am not referring to a set of online rules, but to the book of rules included into the box.
 
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Bruce Murphy
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Thanks for the quote. French is basically badly pronounced English, no? :) I too am speaking entirely about the original rules for the game, found in the box. (Although I have only German in mine)

The french rules appear to be pretty consistent with the German, unless I'm missing something subtle. For the central tile, you first move the emeralds, one at a time, until the sapphire is the last gem remaining. I know 'dernière', so that seems pretty definite that the blue gem will be the final gem to move off the central tile.

I'm still not sure how you arrived at your interpretation "A" above, since following the rule we seem to have here would require extra rules requiring paths to be connected in a certain order as well as going against the example images. Could you lead me through the thought process?

I presume the English rules in your copy are also similar? I've quoted the German above.

B>
 
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JM G
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Resign.
 
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John Farrell
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trioker wrote:
il déplace toujours d'abord l'une des émeraudes vertes jusqu'à ce qu'il ne reste plus que le saphir bleu


C'est assez clair, n'est-ce pas? Donc, B.

J'étais un peu confondu jusqu'à j'ai réalisé que l'on ne pouvait pas designer (attribuer?) les cinq pierres verts aux six sorties de la tuile du centre sans ambiguïté, donc il faudrait que l'on n'en a pas besoin. Je suis d'accord, on s'attendait que tous les pierres auraient leur propre chemin, mais M. Knizia a dit précisément la règle - les pierres sont repartis selon l'ordre de placement des sorties.

 
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thepackrat wrote:
I'm still not sure how you arrived at your interpretation "A" above, since following the rule we seem to have here would require extra rules requiring paths to be connected in a certain order as well as going against the example images. Could you lead me through the thought process?


Thought Process:
This situation is similar to how people learn about a product they've just purchased. People who read the user manual first, and try out a product function according to an instruction on the manual before moving to the next instruction, they will very quickly derive the interpretation "B". For people who play with the product by themselves before reading the manual, may be mislead by whatever they observe, they may potentially be lead to believe in interpretation "A". My friends who once believed in "A", told me the reason: They arrange the green gems (the majority, 5 green against 1 blue) in a circle as illustrated, thus the false impression of each gem is assigned to one of the tile exits. In fact, many people learn a game from another player, not from user manual, so what they are taught depending on whether the player have reached the conclusion "B", or still stuck at the stage "A".

Strategic Advantage:
By the way, even though you may change the rule to support "A", I personally prefer not to. The reason is "B" gives you a minor strategic choice when played with more than 2 players, i.e. you may identify the adjacent sides of the centre tile which are nearer to the your scoring zones (you and your allies), try not to place tiles on those sides so that when the last (6th) tile is connected to the centre tile, the blue gem may potentially move closer to your scoring zone instead of your opponent's. Such advantage is probably disputable, but I don't have to be convinced otherwise

All is fair in Love and Boardgaming; Most games are for fun, not for building rocket.
 
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